What is wrong with the Tau?

[Ryan Thunder]

Mind you; I still like 40K. I just don't really like 40K fluff, mostly because it seems to deviate wildly from the game...

[white_rabbit]

Well of course you'd like that. Most Imperial players would love that, simply because they can't stand to see a civilization that has hope and survives. They're too used to that sort of thing getting wiped out before the end of the paragraph.

It's not so much that the Tau are thriving. It's because their victories are played up as being won due to superior technology/philosophy/everything, which is bullshit; the Imperium is currently busy with more serious matters, and the Tau are using that to expand as much as they can.

Well, on the philosophy angle, I agree. Philosophy doesn't have much to do with winning.

They do have superior technology in some regards. Sure, the Imperium might have instances of technology that is better, but it's rarely common stuff, while the Tau can build their tech as often as they want, with resources being the only limitation. That, and they actually improve on it, which is more than can be said for the other factions.

Take a good look at the relative scale of the two empires you are comparing.

[Ryan Thunder]

What? Shit, it was never my intention to imply that the Tau were beating the Imperium as a whole. Fuck that idea...

[Darth Smiley]

Actually, most of the assholery on the part of the Tau can be justified for the same reason the Imperium's oppressiveness can be justified - it is necessary for the species to survive.

How many alien civilizations in 40k in the last few millenniums have evolved, discovered spaceflight, and begun to explore, when they find out that :

• The universe is populated by an aggressive, xenophobic, expansionist civilization that calls itself the Empire, led by an extremely powerful psyker. It outnumbers you by multiple orders of magnitude, and would happily exterminate or enslave your people.
• The other 'civilizations' in the galaxy are worse. They will be just as likely to enslave, kill, or even eat your entire civilization, and every single one of them outnumbers you by orders of magnitude as well.
• And just when you thought it was bad enough, there are creatures in a dimension parallel to yours who can possess your bodies and machines.

The Tau are lucky. The have some immunity to the warp, they happened to be around right as the Imperium is rather busy with other matters, and far enough away from any major threats as to be relatively safe, for the time being.

That said, it isn't going to last, and the leaders of the Tau have to know this. Time is the Tau's greatest enemy. They know that unless they expand themselves and increase their strength, and do it fast, their entire species will be consigned to the extremely large ash-heap of 40k history. They therefore must use their one innate advantage, their warp immunity, to develop technology as as fast as possible to compensate for their pathetically small population. They also need to gain as much territory, and as many additional subjects, as they possibly can. To that effect, they have gone the route of assimilating, rather than exterminating (like the Imperium) aliens. But they don't have time to full mesh their respective societies, and are forced to go with half measures, and heavy propaganda and police use. The aliens are largely willing (having precisely the same alternatives), but the Tau have to assimilate everyone they possibly can. Unassimilated worlds represent huge potential threats as well as large amounts of untapped resources, neither of which the Tau can afford to tolerate.

In the long run, the Tau might collapse under the weight of their assimilated subjects. In the mean time, they are in desperate need of troops, and assimilation is really the only choice. Yes, it sucks for the troops used as cannon fodder. But even they get off pretty good. After all, what's so bad about giving up a few billion troops now to ensure that your species survives?

[Uraniun235]

Sure I do. It's set in the evil dark and gritty future where everything's, well, "dark" and "gritty". And its gritty, eh?

Then they wrote in something that isn't and people threw a fit.

Well, I'm not sure it's so much 'gritty' as it is 'cartoonishly contrived to be totally hopeless for everyone involved', but yeah it's sort of understandable that when they threw in a side that sort of sticks out like an erect penis, people complained that the Tau stick out like an erect penis.

[Uraniun235]

plus the tau were designed to appeal to the 'lol animu mecha' fans, am i rite

[Ryan Thunder]

Sure I do. It's set in the evil dark and gritty future where everything's, well, "dark" and "gritty". And its gritty, eh?

Then they wrote in something that isn't and people threw a fit.

Well, I'm not sure it's so much 'gritty' as it is 'cartoonishly contrived to be totally hopeless for everyone involved', but yeah it's sort of understandable that when they threw in a side that sort of sticks out like an erect penis, people complained that the Tau stick out like an erect penis.

Ok, in that sense, fair enough. On the other hand, what's wrong with some variety?

plus the tau were designed to appeal to the 'lol animu mecha' fans, am i rite

Offhand, I'd say no. On a certain level, maybe. But battlesuits aren't anywhere near as wanktastic as any sort of anime mecha I'm familiar with, and that wanktasticness seems to be a defining feature of mecha anime.

[Shadowtraveler]

Sure, the Imperium might have instances of technology that is better, but it's rarely common stuff, while the Tau can build their tech as often as they want, with resources being the only limitation.

To be fair, Guard tech is built more for durablity and ease of construction than niftyness.

That, and they actually improve on it, which is more than can be said for the other factions.

I'll grant you that, but it's not really that fast; weren't Crisis Suits used as far back as Damocles?

[white_rabbit]

What? Shit, it was never my intention to imply that the Tau were beating the Imperium as a whole. Fuck that idea...

You are missing the point, the Tau can afford to bling out their standard military forces, have a hugely smaller logistics operation, etc etc blah blah.

The Imperium doesn't have the luxury of being teeny tiny.

[NecronLord]

I'll grant you that, but it's not really that fast; weren't Crisis Suits used as far back as Damocles?

Yep. And they're continuing to experiment with improved models.


Interestingly, back in RT, 'Dreadnought Armour' - as in battlesuits - wasn't that rare. It was rare, but the Imperium had it. They may actually have some heavy power armour like that outside of the compact version the Astartes wear (Hence, tactical dreadnought armour) somewhere...

[Falkenhayn]

Doesn't Bjorn the Fell-Handed (I think that's his name) actually remember serving alongside the Emperor?

Indeed he did, and it puts him in the neighborhood of 10,100 years old. They wake him up every thousand years to test the Rune Priests on their knowledge of Imperial History, or when they need him.

He's one of the reasons why the Space Wolves regularly tell ass kissers like the Imperial Fists, and the Administratum in general, to get fucked. Its because they have a living witness to the Great Crusade who heard about the Empirical Truth of the Imperium of Man from the Man himself.

The fun thing is, the Emperor was still a raging xenophobe, even during his coporeal, humanist days. So the IoM at least got that much right.

[Ryan Thunder]

What? Shit, it was never my intention to imply that the Tau were beating the Imperium as a whole. Fuck that idea...

You are missing the point, the Tau can afford to bling out their standard military forces, have a hugely smaller logistics operation, etc etc blah blah.

Huh?

They also have a hugely smaller resource base to work from. It's not like the Imperium of Man is running the (incomprehensibly vast) forces it does off the same volume of resources available to the Tau.

The Imperium doesn't have the luxury of being teeny tiny.

It's not exactly a luxury. Hell, they probably have access to shit the Tau haven't even thought of before.

[Ryan Thunder]

Sure, the Imperium might have instances of technology that is better, but it's rarely common stuff, while the Tau can build their tech as often as they want, with resources being the only limitation.

To be fair, Guard tech is built more for durablity and ease of construction than niftyness.

That it is, but they never even seem to try anything else...

Elysians are a notable exception to this.

That, and they actually improve on it, which is more than can be said for the other factions.

I'll grant you that, but it's not really that fast; weren't Crisis Suits used as far back as Damocles?

True, but as mentioned, they're experimenting with new designs.

[Peptuck]

It's not exactly a luxury. Hell, they probably have access to shit the Tau haven't even thought of before.

Vrtex grenades and Magna-meltas come to mind off the top of my head. Also, the Imperium's plasma weapons are actually more powerful than the Tau's....though with the added disadvantage of random catastrophic coolant leaks.

[Utsanomiko]

Mind you; I still like 40K. I just don't really like 40K fluff, mostly because it seems to deviate wildly from the game...

So what is 40k really without the 'fluff'? A beer & pretzels wargame with dumpy overpriced models that only just started sculpting more than the occasional purity seal in the last four years to match the rulebook art (which were pretty bland and bereft of background material until recently as well)?

Warhammer isn't at all like some kind of hard scifi setting where you look at it under a microscope and marvel at how structured it was made; it's an upside-down fairytale land that's all about style and themes to absurd proportions. Its overall setting's big enough for countlessly different individual settings; stone age cultures, people sitting around Gudrun all day having tea parties, or some sort of trichordate race romping around their home system like it's Cowboy Beebop, but what makes it 40k without the fluff? It's an aimless mishmash without the overreaching themes such as 'but humans are greedy and shortsighted and ruined it' or 'and they never found their way home due to typographical error', that only British satire brings.

I'm not saying Tau don't necessarily fit in there, more that they're simplified in the wrong ways. Since GW still thinks live demonstrations are the way to inform gamers in the information age, Warhammer relies a lot on hearsay, and thus most people's information of the Tau isn't from $22 books with snippet background info but one-line summaries and repeated perspectives. 'Tau are flashy', 'Tau are good guys', 'Tau are communists', 'Tau are manga', but are they really?

What we've got is a race that is highly regimented into a ranked caste system, one of which controls the rest using empathic means. The entirety of their means of making peace and alliances is to either bomb them into surrendering or forcefully making them agree with their ideals. To me that all paints a picture of a lot of repression of individuality and free will; the Greater Good is a very glossy mask for a very ugly face.

Basically, the Tau or only 'good' in any noble or sympathetic way if we're just taking their own self perspective at face value and pure fact. We might as well assume The Emperor of Man was literally God who allied with Martian magicians and spirit-talkers, the events of which and following might be a little bit sketchy and not commonly known after 10,000 years.


In short, I like the Tau's style when it's got some grittiness. It provides some necessary contrast to an otherwise sterile and one-sided visual design, as well as some 40k-esque stylistic juxtaposition, much like the anachronisms in Imperial tech.

[Utsanomiko]

Ghetto edit: Of course the 'good or evil' debate is moot, since the real answer is: "Everyone's bad, the real issue is chaos vs order. No no, put down your D&D books, you're gonna need some Michael Moorcock to really explain it. And put down the 40k novels while you're at it and buy some models ir rulebooks, there's a tabletop game too you know."

[NecronLord]

The fun thing is, the Emperor was still a raging xenophobe, even during his coporeal, humanist days. So the IoM at least got that much right.

He wasn't even a very good humanist. They already demonstrated chemical and biological weapons on 'heretics' to marine medic classes back then.

[MJ12 Commando]

He wasn't even a very good humanist. They already demonstrated chemical and biological weapons on 'heretics' to marine medic classes back then.

Give the kindliest, awesomest, most polite man in existence near-infinite power and he'll become a raging dick in ten minutes.

...Sounds like a certain guy in the IoM?

[Big Orange]

It would be interesting if the C'Tan were benign in their intentions - they would bring a proper end to Chaos in the Milky Way, introduce a safer more efficient FTL drive to the masses, and could skim shreds of life force off trillions of content Milky Way inhabitants without killing them. But no that cannot happen, absolute power has corrupted them absolutely (ditto for the Eldar, Tau ethereals, perhaps the DAoT humans, certainly Horus, and the Emperor with all his works).

And there is something intrinsically wrong with Tau society when they’re not a democracy at, with all of their political and social power within the hands of a select few (that are biologically ordained), while everybody else in society has their place and cannot do anything to change their station or expand on themselves (interbreeding between the five castes is punished by death, how is that cuddly?). But if the Tau were in any other sci-fi setting (like Star Trek), they would be more comparable to the Romulans or a slightly toned down Dominion (the Tau Empire could also be fairly compared to the Sebatian Peacekeepers).

[Molyneux]

The WH40K universe begs the question of whether species survival is really worth it, if it requires you to descend to the lowest depths of evil. Nietzche's famous warning comes to mind.

I contend that species survival is the ultimate good. I would not hesitate in personally killing any number of beings for the the sake of mankind's survival. I would do both completely assured of the morality of my actions. Species survival is the ultimate good, it absolutely and automatically overrides all other concerns. It is when you start killing aliens in situations where the survival of humanity is not at stake that you become a degenerate xenophobic asshole. Which is why I contend the Imperium are xenophobic assholes, their whole sale slaughter of aliens just because they're aliens is not justified by species survival. In fact, it's not justified by anything at all, save their own xenophobia.

Bullshit! Species survival is a good, but if you give survival of the species more weight than survival of the self, you introduce a problem.

Why is it more important for the rest of humanity to survive than it is for you, specifically, to survive? Because the rest of humanity is like you. You have a shared heritage, and it's a good to promote the survival of other intelligent beings.

In WH40K, everyone was fucked with equally by the big-ancient-shithead-aliens-du-jour. It's the duty of intelligence to stick together for the sake of saving intelligent life in general, not a single race.

To preserve one human life at the cost of all the rest is evil, because in the end you've hurt the cause of sentience. To preserve one species at the cost of all the rest is equally evil, for the same reason.

[Cykeisme]

It seems the Old Ones may have neglected to engineer the instinctual drive for the various races to band together (in the sense of like The Selfish Gene and all that).
This may be partly because those damn xenos are of a completely different biological makeup and may not have genes.

Even if they did, the survival of those who carry the most number of similar genes to you is most important. If anything with less in common is a threat, it should burn.

To preserve one human life at the cost of all the rest is evil, because in the end you've hurt the cause of sentience. To preserve one species at the cost of all the rest is equally evil, for the same reason.

Now when you start to throw morailty and genetic survival in the same pot, it all starts to make less sense. Evilution!

Regardless, the Tau are not engineered by the Old Ones, so whatever the case, fuck those commie space fish!

[Cykeisme]

A beer & pretzels wargame with dumpy overpriced models that only just started sculpting more than the occasional purity seal in the last four years to match the rulebook art (which were pretty bland and bereft of background material until recently as well)?

What's "dumpy"?

[NecronLord]

It seems the Old Ones may have neglected to engineer the instinctual drive for the various races to band together (in the sense of like The Selfish Gene and all that).
This may be partly because those damn xenos are of a completely different biological makeup and may not have genes.

Remember, most of the races we know of were engineered/re-engineered as weapons. It's possible that their falling into warring can't be helped.

There might have been peacemakers and bridge builders, too. But they could have died out in the intervening time.

Regardless, the Tau are not engineered by the Old Ones, so whatever the case, fuck those commie space fish!

They could of course, be engineered by the high servants of the old ones, or the Eldar, who also think themselves proteges...

Or the Harlequin, who may be an Old One.

[Molyneux]

To preserve one human life at the cost of all the rest is evil, because in the end you've hurt the cause of sentience. To preserve one species at the cost of all the rest is equally evil, for the same reason.

Now when you start to throw morailty and genetic survival in the same pot, it all starts to make less sense. Evilution!

Nah, I'm simply taking it up a notch; genetic survival, in the long run, is far less important than the survival of intelligence (and more importantly, intelligence that resembles yours).

[Adrian Laguna]

Interestingly, back in RT, 'Dreadnought Armour' - as in battlesuits - wasn't that rare. It was rare, but the Imperium had it. They may actually have some heavy power armour like that outside of the compact version the Astartes wear (Hence, tactical dreadnought armour) somewhere...

Not only do they have it "somewhere", most of the older chapters have several. I'm pretty sure the Imperium can make new ones, just that the foundries that make them are very few and work rather slowly.
Drednought
Tactical Dreadnought