Dubya and Dracula

[Illuminatus Primus]

A recent survey of college students in this country showed that half couldn't even say when the American Revolution took place —an event a mere two centuries past for us. While Romanians are celebrating national heroes from four, five, and six centuries past and had been inculcated in their exploits as part of the programme of nationalistic identity imposed by the Ceaucescu regime.

1.) Americans celebrate the Revolution nearly universally - the Fourth of July - just as Romanians celebrate their national heroes. Romania is just an older nation. Celebration does not necessarily mean meaningful historical understanding or comprehension (including date recitation). Mere celebration on their part does not establish a better intrinsic civics education or cultural awareness. And if that's not what you're establishing, what cause is there to attack Americans relative to Romanians?

2.) If the only reason for their better civic enthusiasm or familiarity is pseudofascist national romanticism by an authoritarian communist regime, how does it reflect on the intrinsic stupidity of Americans, as opposed to differing historical circumstances. Lauding the Romanian people for their civic knowledge in comparison to Americans which they possess because of a national romantic dictatorship seems to be inappropriate.

The rest is just posturing. Sure Americans are not a very bright or well-educated people, but the idea that there's some great stupidity intrinsic and characteristic of Americans here relative to Romanians or that Vlad Tepes is truly better "known" or "understood" among Romanians than Bush will be in a couple decades is exaggerating and ax-grinding.

The fact Romanians simply celebrate him is no more meaningful than us celebrating July 4th, and certainly doesn't reflect on him versus Bush if they are familiar simply because of the national romanticism of their last tyrant.

[Patrick Degan]

You're just bound and determined to make a fool of yourself on this, aren't you, Primus?

A recent survey of college students in this country showed that half couldn't even say when the American Revolution took place —an event a mere two centuries past for us. While Romanians are celebrating national heroes from four, five, and six centuries past and had been inculcated in their exploits as part of the programme of nationalistic identity imposed by the Ceaucescu regime.

1.) Americans celebrate the Revolution nearly universally - the Fourth of July - just as Romanians celebrate their national heroes. Romania is just an older nation. Celebration does not necessarily mean meaningful historical understanding or comprehension (including date recitation). Mere celebration on their part does not establish a better intrinsic civics education or cultural awareness. And if that's not what you're establishing, what cause is there to attack Americans relative to Romanians?

You don't even see how easily the logic behind your own attempt at a rebuttal only advances my argument instead of hindering it.

2.) If the only reason for their better civic enthusiasm or familiarity is pseudofascist national romanticism by an authoritarian communist regime, how does it reflect on the intrinsic stupidity of Americans, as opposed to differing historical circumstances. Lauding the Romanian people for their civic knowledge in comparison to Americans which they possess because of a national romantic dictatorship seems to be inappropriate.

Stating a fact, no matter how disturbing you personally find it, is not "lauding" anybody. It is merely a statement of fact. Don't like it? Tough shit. It actually should be an object of concern that the citizens of a free republic are less aware of their own heritage than those of a former communist dictatorship no matter what the source of the latter peoples' awareness originated from.

The rest is just posturing.

Yours, mainly.

Sure Americans are not a very bright or well-educated people, but the idea that there's some great stupidity intrinsic and characteristic of Americans here relative to Romanians or that Vlad Tepes is truly better "known" or "understood" among Romanians than Bush will be in a couple decades is exaggerating and ax-grinding.

Try "strawmandering" —the logical flaw which you are now very clearly guilty of in this thread. Particularly as it is quite demonstrable that public memory in this country among our own people does tend to thin out quite rapidly.

The fact Romanians simply celebrate him is no more meaningful than us celebrating July 4th, and certainly doesn't reflect on him versus Bush if they are familiar simply because of the national romanticism of their last tyrant.

The difference is that, for whatever the motivation of the former regime behind it, Romanians were given a fairly firm grasp of who Vlad the Impaler was and what he fought for and when. Whereas it is apparent that many Americans are not given a similarly solid grounding in their own heritage or what the freedoms they bleat about or hear the politicians bleating about actually fucking mean.

It is also apparent, to return to the original point of this thread, that comparisons of the cult of Vlad in Romania to the cult of Bush here are inappropriate given how the latter is not likely to endure for very long —not only because Bush will leave no lasting legacy except that of failure and criminality but also because the public memory in this country tends to be demonstrably ephemeral.

[wolveraptor]

A recent survey of college students in this country showed that half couldn't even say when the American Revolution took place —an event a mere two centuries past for us. While Romanians are celebrating national heroes from four, five, and six centuries past and had been inculcated in their exploits as part of the programme of nationalistic identity imposed by the Ceaucescu regime.

I notice you don't provide any stats on the Romanian population's awareness of important dates in their national history. Hell, you even try to misconstrue celebration of national heroes as real historical understanding. Perhaps because your point is utter bullshit?

[Patrick Degan]

A recent survey of college students in this country showed that half couldn't even say when the American Revolution took place —an event a mere two centuries past for us. While Romanians are celebrating national heroes from four, five, and six centuries past and had been inculcated in their exploits as part of the programme of nationalistic identity imposed by the Ceaucescu regime.

I notice you don't provide any stats on the Romanian population's awareness of important dates in their national history. Hell, you even try to misconstrue celebration of national heroes as real historical understanding. Perhaps because your point is utter bullshit?

Care to demonstrate how it is "utter bullshit"? Care to enlighten us how the fact that Vlad the Impaler, a central figure in Romanian oral tradition and folk legend for centuries and a primary instrument in Romanian nationalist propaganda, is allegedly insufficient to demonstrate what was my original point: that comparisons of the cult of Vlad in Romania to the cult of Bush here are inappropriate given how the latter is not likely to endure for very long —not only because Bush will leave no lasting legacy except that of failure and criminality but also because the public memory in this country tends to be demonstrably ephemeral.

[The Yosemite Bear]

after all american gods got that part right, the people of this continet have a very poor memory for gods, and those who claim to be gods...

[Sidewinder]

Vlad Dracula led from the front in battles against the Turks. He's badass in ways George W. Bush can only dream of.

Where does this psycho streak come from? You must have to be really fucked up in the head to cause such sadistic harm to another living thing.

The Turks and treacherous Romanian nobles were the ones who fucked up Dracula's head.

A hostage of the Ottoman Empire
Vlad's father was under considerable political pressure from the Ottoman sultan. Threatened with invasion, he gave a promise to be the vassal of the Sultan and gave up his two younger sons as hostages so that he would keep his promise.

These years were influential in shaping Vlad's character; he was often whipped by his Ottoman captors for being stubborn and rude. He developed a well-known hatred for Radu and for Mehmed, who would later become the sultan. According to McNally and Florescu, he also distrusted his own father for trading him to the Turks and betraying the Order of the Dragon oath to fight them.

Brief reign and exile
Vlad's father was assassinated in the marshes near Bălteni in December of 1447 by rebellious boyars allegedly under the orders of John Hunyadi. Vlad's older brother Mircea was also dead at this point, blinded with hot iron stakes and buried alive by his political enemies at Târgovişte. To protect their political power in the region, the Ottomans invaded Wallachia and the Sultan put Vlad III on the throne as his puppet ruler. His rule at this time would be brief; Hunyadi himself invaded Wallachia and ousted him the same year. Vlad fled to Moldavia until October of 1451 and was put under the protection of his uncle, Bogdan II.