Judgement day - ID on trial

[wautd]

PBS did a docu of the events during the Dover trial. You can watch it here.

[K. A. Pital]

I love seeing intelligent people smack down bullshit. Dover was one of the better events in the last few years. And the documentary looks very good (so far seen only the first few parts).

[Covenant]

I watched it on TV, it was good. I like how badly the ID'ers got spanked in Trial, and how handily the judge whipped their ass, and how bad they look overall. It almost looks unfairly biased, except we know that this is how it actually went down. I love the typo. First thing I said when I saw that was, "Aha! A transitional fossil between creationism and intelligent design!" Then the guy on the TV said it too. ;D

[wautd]

A transitional fossil between creationism and intelligent design!"

My favorite part as well

[CaptJodan]

Very, very enjoyable watching. I hadn't delved into what happened during the trial, and given this was a public broadcast, I was actually expecting a more "balanced" approach, although how do you balance complete and utter stupidity like that?

It certainly explains how the verdict went the way it did.

[rhoenix]

Very, very enjoyable watching. I hadn't delved into what happened during the trial, and given this was a public broadcast, I was actually expecting a more "balanced" approach, although how do you balance complete and utter stupidity like that?

It certainly explains how the verdict went the way it did.

Indeed. I deeply enjoyed watching this, and though I was expecting the re-enactments of the trial to be a bit cheesy, they did drive home some good points with good science.

Especially Behe's bullshit about "we don't know how the immune system developed, so it must've been designed!," immediately followed by one of the plaintiff lawyers going "oh, okay" and dropping about ten books about that exact subject on the stand.

The subtle point about how most reporters were saying "holy shit, how come nobody told us that there was such overwhelming evidence for evolution," and people start just looking at the "intelligent design" folks.

[CmdrWilkens]

Honestly I think the documentary would probably be a great one (minus the bits on the school board politics) to take into a biology classroom. It truly shows how there is a method the scientific discovery and the basic idea that you make a prediction and then test against it then when the evidence keeps appearing which agrees with the prediction you've got a solid theory.

[Lonestar]

They really ripped the Discovery Institute a new one. "We made repeated requests to interview members of the D.I., but the made conditions that were inconsistant with normal journalistic interviews."

[Nephtys]

They really ripped the Discovery Institute a new one. "We made repeated requests to interview members of the D.I., but the made conditions that were inconsistant with normal journalistic interviews."

We really need more programs like this. Shows which explicitly show exactly why science is what it is, why scientists believe what they do, and how exactly it is the only rational way to percieve things.

Because of a lack of interest in the subject, too many people think of science as some esoteric 'make it up' stuff, that lets garbage like ID Fester.

[Medic]

*cough*

Anyway, it probably also deserves it's own discussion thread and although generally I was acquainted with the trial and even a great deal of minutiae that came from it, I was ignorant of the "transitional form" between CREATION SCIENCE and INTELLIGENT DESIGN.

It's in Chapter 10, when they discuss what actually was the best piece of evidence Kitzmiller et. al. had, the actual books that were ordered to be placed in the library at the school: "Of Pandas and People." Literally straddling a 1987 SCOTUS decision banning creationism from public schools there existed 2 editions of this book, one before and one after the trial, where the definition of "creation science" was literally changed to "intelligent design" with the 2 sentences being identical except the terms creation and intelligent design were swapped as were intelligent creator and intelligent agency.

There was even editing errors where someone didn't delete the entire word "creationists" and inserted "design proponents" but in such a fashion that we literally possess THE MISSING LINK between creationism and intelligent design: "cdesign proponentsists."

That's spelled O-W-N-E-D!

[Hawkwings]

I loved the part where the radio station owner was like "I think kids should be taught both sides, and do their own research."

I literally laughed out loud at that.

[DPDarkPrimus]

I looked on the PBS website, and it's only $20 for a DVD.

Very tempting.

[Netko]

I watched it on TV, it was good. I like how badly the ID'ers got spanked in Trial, and how handily the judge whipped their ass, and how bad they look overall. It almost looks unfairly biased, except we know that this is how it actually went down. I love the typo. First thing I said when I saw that was, "Aha! A transitional fossil between creationism and intelligent design!" Then the guy on the TV said it too. ;D

Watched it yesterday and was inspired to read the actual ruling. Pure ownage. It just goes on an on about how ID is not science, but infact redressed creationism, every argument meticulously detailed with numerous testimony from experts, statements from scientific organizations - and with numerous "this is where the school board fucked up" moments. A lot of said great testimony has not been shown in the show do to time constraints so if you're interested in seeing more ID smackdown you really should read the decision (here)

[wautd]

I didn't knew (but not suprised) that the judge received death threats after the trial.

[Johonebesus]

I didn't knew (but not suprised) that the judge received death threats after the trial.

That's the sort of thing that ought to get media attention. It's so infuriating that right wingers can get on the air and say that the Left is full of hatred and get away with it. People actually think that Phelps is an odd outlier instead of just at the extreme edge of normal for the right. Maybe if "moderate" Christians continually heard how much hate comes from conservative Christianity, they might be a bit less quick to give them the benefit of the doubt, or to accept the proposition that faith naturally leads to better morality.

[DPDarkPrimus]

I didn't knew (but not suprised) that the judge received death threats after the trial.

And countless right-wing journalists and blogger slandered him as a bleeding-heart liberal when he was a conservative Republican selected by Bush.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Very, very enjoyable watching. I hadn't delved into what happened during the trial, and given this was a public broadcast, I was actually expecting a more "balanced" approach, although how do you balance complete and utter stupidity like that?

It certainly explains how the verdict went the way it did.

They tried. Though, lets be honest, PBS has a "reality" bias. While good journalists, they also care about what is actually true. And seeing as the law and the science is settled, there is no point in being overly generous to the other side. Especially because the other side did everything in their power to be douches.

They really ripped the Discovery Institute a new one. "We made repeated requests to interview members of the D.I., but the made conditions that were inconsistant with normal journalistic interviews."

I actually asked Eugenie Scott about that (we are facebook friends and met at a lecture a couple years ago.... god am I a nerd) and apparantly the reason is that they asked Nova if they could film themselves being filmed. Nova initially agreed with the stipulation that the DI could not use the footage for fund raising or promotion. The DI then refused the conditions.

If I have to explain why that is unethical...

Anyway, it probably also deserves it's own discussion thread and although generally I was acquainted with the trial and even a great deal of minutiae that came from it, I was ignorant of the "transitional form" between CREATION SCIENCE and INTELLIGENT DESIGN.

It's in Chapter 10, when they discuss what actually was the best piece of evidence Kitzmiller et. al. had, the actual books that were ordered to be placed in the library at the school: "Of Pandas and People." Literally straddling a 1987 SCOTUS decision banning creationism from public schools there existed 2 editions of this book, one before and one after the trial, where the definition of "creation science" was literally changed to "intelligent design" with the 2 sentences being identical except the terms creation and intelligent design were swapped as were intelligent creator and intelligent agency.

There was even editing errors where someone didn't delete the entire word "creationists" and inserted "design proponents" but in such a fashion that we literally possess THE MISSING LINK between creationism and intelligent design: "cdesign proponentsists." Laughing

That's spelled O-W-N-E-D!

I know. Eugenie Scott came to ASU near the date of the actual trial (IIRc it was right after arguments ended) and went through it in detail. Including text from different drafts and how there was a slow and gradual change followed by the 1987 decision which caused a rapid divergence. She even included newer drafts that were Subpoenaed. They have transitioned again to "Sudden Emergence Theory" apparently in some newer drafts.

[Shogoki]

For those of you who don't have time to watch the whole thing here it is in a nutshell:

[Zablorg]

In chapter six, during the obligitory description of DNA, it depicted two chromosomes swapping bits and pieces between each other.

Unless I have been insanely mis-informed, that really isn't how it works.

[Alyrium Denryle]

In chapter six, during the obligitory description of DNA, it depicted two chromosomes swapping bits and pieces between each other.

Unless I have been insanely mis-informed, that really isn't how it works.

It is actually. Crossing over.

[Zablorg]

Isn't it transferring the individual chromosomes, not the chromosomes trading dna with each other?

My life is a lie .

[mr friendly guy]

Watching it now. No doubt I will watch it over days as I don't have time to just sit and watch the whole lot. It is tempting to get the DVD.

And was that Dick Yorke from Bewitched in "Inherit the Wind".

[SCRawl]

I watched it yesterday, and, to pile on, it was fucking awesome. Listening to that IDer bitch and whine about how the judge must have gone to clown college or slept through the day they taught the Constitution, though, was absolutely priceless. Actually, listening to most of the ID nonsense made my brain hurt, but in a good way. The line that hit me hardest, though, was the one from the daughter of the radio station owner loon: "If you believe in Heaven and Hell and you believe you have to be saved, nothing else could possibly matter. Not the first amendment, not science, not rational debate." I suppose that I already understood that, but she put it in a way that made sense for me.

[Zixinus]

I liked it, although I already knew most of what happened. For me, the dramatic re-enactment was not dramatic enough. It was interesting to see just how underhanded the ID advocates were, but still rather boring.

[wolveraptor]

Isn't it transferring the individual chromosomes, not the chromosomes trading dna with each other?

My life is a lie .

Both forms of transfer occur during meiosis. The swapping of DNA is called crossing over, while the recombination of individual chromosomes is called sexual recombination, I think.