The Soul and the Brain

[Junghalli]

This model of the environment, by necessity, includes a "reflexive" model of the self. And apparently the most convenient way to model the self for a species with our level of intelligence is to create the illusion of consciousness.

Why do you call consciousness an illusion? If you think your consciousness is an illusion how are you defining "real" consciousness?

[Turin]

This model of the environment, by necessity, includes a "reflexive" model of the self. And apparently the most convenient way to model the self for a species with our level of intelligence is to create the illusion of consciousness.

Why do you call consciousness an illusion? If you think your consciousness is an illusion how are you defining "real" consciousness?

Uh... I'm not?

Maybe I'm not using precise enough language here. The subjective experience itself is "real." We really do experience a subjective consciousness (this should be obvious). The "illusory" part is the perception that this consciousness is somehow a separate "you" -- a homonculus seeing through your eyes. The model that the human brain creates seems to be naturally dualist, which is an illusion.

[Junghalli]

Uh... I'm not?

Ah, OK, it sounded like you were.

[Kanastrous]

I dunno...I like the idea of a little Kanastrous-homonculus operating me from behind my eyeballs like a BattleMech on the prowl...

[Darth Holbytlan]

If we had a fuckton of paper and pencil and time we should be able to do all the computations that go on in any computer. The result of the computations could produce behavior similar to a sentient being. Yet there is no self aware entity involved just a zillion monkeys with paper and pencil. If the brain is just a smaller and more efficient version of the planet of monkeys with pencils then why do we "feel" our existence ?

That's just a variant of Searle's Chinese Room, except applied to us, too. That link goes into far more depth on the issues, but the most immediate problem is that you are conflating consciousness of the components with consciousness of the whole. It's sort of like arguing that a computer must have some ethereal force giving it the ability to browse web pages, since none of the individual transistors, resistors, etc. can do so. It just assumes that consciousness is some sort of fundamental property that can't composed from non-conscious elements.

[Turin]

I dunno...I like the idea of a little Kanastrous-homonculus operating me from behind my eyeballs like a BattleMech on the prowl...

A witticism, no doubt. But isn't that basically what the concept of the soul is? Some little person inside running the show? Most humans share that model of the self even if they know that it doesn't reflect reality. I know there's no "me inside me", but that doesn't stop me from perceiving some kind of weird dichotomy between my mind and body. It's just the way the brain is wired.

Look at something like visual perception. Everything you "see" is really a model of the environment that your brain creates out of the dozen or so pattern-recognizing groups of neurons in your retina. You interpret this as a 3D scene. But there's an enormous amount of information in that scene that you're cutting out (the retinal blind spot, "data compression" of areas outside the primary visual focus, etc). Do you perceive that it's being cut out? No, because you mental model accounts for it.

Same thing as your perception of consciousness. It's a useful model.

[TithonusSyndrome]

I dunno...I like the idea of a little Kanastrous-homonculus operating me from behind my eyeballs like a BattleMech on the prowl...

I guarantee you that you won't if the idea consumes you, like it did to me half a decade ago during a drug experience. It's a good way to develop Depersonalization Disorder, which in my amateur opinion, I believe I developed:

Depersonalization : A frightening and/or disturbing experience of not being within one's own body or of being in immediate danger of vanishing/separating from reality – often described as the sensation of living inside a dream. Although cognitive functioning remains intact, the sufferers feel disconnected from their sense of self and often interpret it “as if I am losing my mind.”
“ My hands feel like they're made of paper, or like they belong to someone else.” “My own face in a mirror seems foreign, like I have never really seen it before this moment…” “I cannot feel my body, not truly numb, but it is as if I have disappeared into myself, beyond my own flesh and blood…”
“Sometimes I literally wonder if I am already dead and existing as a ghost…it feels like my soul is trying to leave its shell and I am fighting with all my strength to hold it inside this body. I don't know if I'm dreaming or awake; I must be going insane…to feel my self wafting away…I know it is only a matter of time…”

Derealization : A state of consciousness that creates a sense of detachment from all environments, fogginess, as if a plate of glass is in between the mind and the physical world. Any concentration requires tremendous effort, and the harder the sufferer tries to focus, the more disconnected they become. Often including feelings of déjà vu or jamais vu. Familiar places look alien, bizarre, and surreal – as if they are part of a Salvador Dali painting. In fact, the more familiar the surrounding, the more foreign it seems to be.

“In a split second, the world seems to tilt. I am suddenly a stranger in my own neighborhood.” “Reality seems to vanish, or is closing in, as if the literally edge of the world is right beyond the horizon.” “Everything looks ‘off,' like it turned into a stage set or fake replica of how it should really look…” “The world looks like I'm dreaming, or like I have unwittingly taken LSD…”

I swear I would honestly not wish this on my worst enemy.

[Kanastrous]

A witticism, no doubt.

Close as I usually come, anyway.

Look at something like visual perception. Everything you "see" is really a model of the environment that your brain creates out of the dozen or so pattern-recognizing groups of neurons in your retina. You interpret this as a 3D scene. But there's an enormous amount of information in that scene that you're cutting out (the retinal blind spot, "data compression" of areas outside the primary visual focus, etc). Do you perceive that it's being cut out? No, because you mental model accounts for it.

Same thing as your perception of consciousness. It's a useful model.

Robert Anton Wilson wrote a lot of entertaining stuff, based in part around that observation.

I guarantee you that you won't if the idea consumes you, like it did to me half a decade ago during a drug experience. It's a good way to develop Depersonalization Disorder, which in my amateur opinion, I believe I developed:

I felt something like that once, not as the direct result of a drug experience (although I have has a few of those...) but after a period of prolonged meditation. Which was really unpleasantly awful, and lasted for a couple hours, and was pretty disorienting and scary...

[Junghalli]

A witticism, no doubt. But isn't that basically what the concept of the soul is? Some little person inside running the show?l.

When I imagine what a soul might be like I always picture something like the electricity lifeform from Virus that lives in your brain like a symbiote and maybe comes out of your eyes and facial orifices when you die.

"Luminous beings we are, not this crude matter."

[Kanastrous]

^ oh, yeah...there's an herb called salvia divinorum, a member of the mint family, which creates a horrendous sensation of annihilation-of-self, which I sincerely hope never to experience again, at least, until the day I die...

[Molyneux]

^ oh, yeah...there's an herb called salvia divinorum, a member of the mint family, which creates a horrendous sensation of annihilation-of-self, which I sincerely hope never to experience again, at least, until the day I die...

Really? What's it feel like?
...is it legal?

[NeoGoomba]

We must design a test to detect the presence of the soul! Let's chuck someone into one of those pure water tanks they use to measure neutrino flux and see if we can detect the souls transmission by the energy spike!

If they float in pure water does it mean they have a soul, or are just witches?

[TithonusSyndrome]

^ oh, yeah...there's an herb called salvia divinorum, a member of the mint family, which creates a horrendous sensation of annihilation-of-self, which I sincerely hope never to experience again, at least, until the day I die...

Yup, I've tried that. I attribute my Depersonalization to salvia, among other things.

Really? What's it feel like?
...is it legal?

Yes, appallingly.

[Molyneux]

^ oh, yeah...there's an herb called salvia divinorum, a member of the mint family, which creates a horrendous sensation of annihilation-of-self, which I sincerely hope never to experience again, at least, until the day I die...

Yup, I've tried that. I attribute my Depersonalization to salvia, among other things.

Really? What's it feel like?
...is it legal?

Yes, appallingly.

Call it a case of "curiosity killed the cat", but on hearing the description my first reaction is "Interesting...let me try that!"

[Sarevok]

That's just a variant of Searle's Chinese Room, except applied to us, too. That link goes into far more depth on the issues, but the most immediate problem is that you are conflating consciousness of the components with consciousness of the whole. It's sort of like arguing that a computer must have some ethereal force giving it the ability to browse web pages, since none of the individual transistors, resistors, etc. can do so. It just assumes that consciousness is some sort of fundamental property that can't composed from non-conscious elements.

An etheral force should not exist in humans either. Yet we perceive our own existence. This should not happen at all unless maybe when something reaches sentient level an outside entity does come into being ? Perhaps even a sentient computer would feel it's existence even though every thing it does is by following algorithms even monkeys with paper and pencil can do ?

[Kanastrous]

Call it a case of "curiosity killed the cat", but on hearing the description my first reaction is "Interesting...let me try that!"

There are no lasting ill effects from use of sd, that I know of...and it *is* legal (although there is already talk of scheduling it).

But I would not call it a "fun" or "recreational" drug. Its traditional use has always been shamanistic; it's not the least bit euphoric or analgesic.

The best description of its effect I can offer, is the sense of reality being ripped away from all around you, being cast into a sort of awful writhing dark flashy tentacular space, and a feeling of your individual identity and mind being drowned and obliterated. I have never experienced that kind of panic, even when crashing/rolling trucks at high speed, or dealing with parachute failure, or under the influence of other drugs, which I have tried.

It's easy to see how this stuff would have religious/visionary applications, for people who are prepared for it, but I have to emphasize that you should not take salvia if you are looking for fun, or just-for-kicks.

Your personal experience might be different, but be prepared for a really awful and frightening trip, if you decide to try it.

[TithonusSyndrome]

For me, salvia felt as though the entire universe beyond my field of vision had been exposed for the illusion it was, and only a rapidly diminishing dome that was within my line of sight over my head remained. I felt a loss of control and at one point heard a feminine voice beckon me to come with her, that I had figured out "life" and made my way "back", but I could stay if I wanted. The experience had not only tremendously damaging psychological effects, but it also marked a time of lapsed critical thinking encouraged by the experience. In fact, I credit lurking SDN with helping me get a grip again.

Anyone who has ever heard me rant about the evils of "the drug culture" might understand why now. It's like the darker twin of the new age movement, completely unchallenged and free to spread it's half-cocked gospel among the youth counterculture. People don't leave "organized religion" for skepticism nearly as often as they do for new age and drug culture charms, in my experience.

[Darth Holbytlan]

An etheral force should not exist in humans either. Yet we perceive our own existence. This should not happen at all unless maybe when something reaches sentient level an outside entity does come into being ?

Please demonstrate how our perception of our own existence requires an ethereal force. Seriously, what about human consciousness is inexplicable, even in principle, from the physical operation of our brains?

Perhaps even a sentient computer would feel it's existence even though every thing it does is by following algorithms even monkeys with paper and pencil can do ?

That's pretty much the idea behind strong AI. In principle, there is nothing the human brain can do that a sufficiently powerful computer couldn't replicate. Or for that matter, a pile of idealized monkeys with paper and pencil. To assert otherwise is to claim that there is some relevant property that the human brain has that the others don't, even though there is no evidence for such a thing. In fact, our current knowledge of physics leaves essentially no room for such a property.

[Stark]

I swear I would honestly not wish this on my worst enemy.

I had episodes of this sort of thing as a child. It's not just fucked up: after a while you think you can feel it coming so you go to irrational lengths to avoid the stimulus you believe causes it. Trying to get away from something like that really brings out the worst side of human nature.

[Darth Wong]

Yet we perceive our own existence. This should not happen at all unless maybe when something reaches sentient level an outside entity does come into being?

Clearly, you did not understand the point made by several others before you posted this. WHY THE FUCK SHOULD WE NOT BE ABLE TO PERCEIVE OUR OWN EXISTENCE, fucktard?

You keep saying that our ability to perceive our own existence is proof of some kind of supernatural force. Your underlying premise is that natural brains are incapable of this; why the fuck don't you JUSTIFY that assumption instead of continually repeating it, moron?

[Turin]

Let's put it this way, Sarevok, and this ties into my earlier explanation. As I said, the dualist "sense of self" is merely a product of the way the brain models the world. The reason why the brain models the world this way is, of course, the same reason for everything else about the way we work -- evolution.

Apparently, having a dualist "sense of self" was evolutionarily advantageous. You can accept that explanation or admit you don't think human beings evolved (in which case you're an idiot and I'm not going to bother messing with you).

I'm not qualified to say if we know exactly how it's advantageous, but I can certainly make an educated guess. If the dualist model allows us to cut down on "processor overhead" in the brain, that means less energy expended doing those functions, which frees up said energy for other evolutionarily important tasks like reproduction or hunting. Alternately, if the dualist model acts as a "mental shortcut" to understanding the difference between "self" and "environment," then having that model might be the difference between reacting in time to avoid being eaten by a lion (for example). Maybe a little of Column A, little of Column B.

[Rye]

I think of it like this; since sensory information is incoming and your senses and brain just deal with that information due to the way they've evolved, your conscious mind is a similar phenomenon within the brain itself. After all, the brain is a huge mess of communicative cells that work in the exact same manner as your sensory cells. It is my opinion then, that conscious self awareness is a sensory perception just like hearing or seeing is; only it's a sequence of observations of your own brain working away instead of being activated by light hitting the retina.

[Superman]

You know, this crap about "perceiving out own existence" isn't quite as unique as religious idiots would like us to believe. I guess we'd need a working definition of what this means exactly, but researchers who work with chimpanzees, for example, see evidence of this basic knowledge in them all the time.