Wars Weapons Range

[DarkStar]

Idiotic logic in action
I won't bother through go through most of your post as its all from the same series of X-Wing Books which Glorfiy X-Wings and realy cut the ranges we see in what. Oh yes EVER OTHER BOOK AND THE MOVIES as being much longer

Funny, I don't see X-wings firing on targets further than about a dozen kilometers in the movies. Would you care to point out a scene, in case I'm mistaken?

But this is just brillant

Of course, most of these involve fighters, but hitting a fighter-size target at shorter range shouldn't be that hard, if they can hit a much larger target at more distant range.

Leap in Logic
In an example its this, Say if I gave you a .22 Pistol Asked you to hit a Barn from Fifty feet
No Problem?
Ok hit a Gnat at 10 Feet same gun

And you see the problem....

No, because your example is stupid, given the observed speeds of SW weapons fire. So long as the 900km object was mobile at all, the effect would be similar.

After all, on 35mm film (had these examples been movies, and if we'd gotten the gun's eye view), the worldship would have been a mere 0.00000421 mm in size on the film, assuming a 900km object at 50 AU. Meanwhile, a fighter at 10km would be .035 mm in size on the film.

That's a target 8300 times bigger, and 748 million times closer.

[nightmare]

No, because your example is stupid, given the observed speeds of SW weapons fire. So long as the 900km object was mobile at all, the effect would be similar.

After all, on 35mm film (had these examples been movies, and if we'd gotten the gun's eye view), the worldship would have been a mere 0.00000421 mm in size on the film, assuming a 900km object at 50 AU. Meanwhile, a fighter at 10km would be .035 mm in size on the film.

That's a target 8300 times bigger, and 748 million times closer.

[sarcasm] Of course it has no bearing that starfighters are just a tiny, tiny bit faster and slightly more manoeuvrable. [/sarcasm]

[nightmare]

This is a copy of a previous post of mine from outside of this board. It had nothing to do with vs. arguments, I was only trying to establish the nature of turbolasers:

Firepower:

A number of calculations has provided the firepower figure in the past. With the new Attack Of The Clones Incredible Cross-Section, we have an exact figure for once.

~200 Gigatons per shot. This is the maximum firepower. Older calculations for heavy turbolasers vary between 2 to 1000 GT per shot.

Note that this number is for the Acclamator-class tran-galactic military transport ship's quad turbolasers. An Imperial Star Destroyer has significantly larger turbolasers, at least twice the calibre. (Not to mention a lot more of them)

Rate Of Fire:

Roughly 2 seconds per shot for heavy batteries. Eventually, the gunner's get tired and the rate goes down. Source - ROTJ.

6 shots per second for light turbolasers, as can be witnessed in ANH from the Tantive IV. Other instances are in the same range.

Range:

Star Wars Technical Journal - Death Star range = 47,060,000 km

Behind The Magic CD-Rom - Death Star range = 100 space units

Imperator-class Star Destroyer
LIGHT Turbolaser range
Short = 3 - 15 Space Units
Medium = 36 Space Units
Long = 75 Space Units

Conclusion: Turbolaser maximum range = 35 295 000 km.

This is the highest known number.

Shield of Lies Pg. 292: Their system entry had placed them a startingly close 16.000 klicks from their targets, and the thrustship grew quickly in the scopes and screens as the bombers accelerated to attack velocity.

Not long after this, they started to get return fire. I suppose I should point out the obvious; range would decrease against such small and maneouverable targets as K-Wing bombers. (compared to capital ships..)

The new NJO novels Rebel Dream and Rebel Stand has a ship firing turbolasers from outside the Coruscant solar system simultaneously with a turbolaser fired in another star system. The idea was to trick the Vong that the NR had developed a faster-than-light turbolaser. Obviously they didn't, but that TL fired from outside the star system still hit it's target. As reference, our solar system is 5 946 000 000 km in diameter, counted out to the orbit of Pluto.

I should also point out that it took "considerable time" for the bolts to hit. But they fired on a Death Star-sized worldship, so it should have been easy to hit anyway. The attack lasted for a minute.

This may come as something of a shock to anyone playing the X-Wing games in which TL range is about 3 km, but I'd like to remind you that an SSD is much larger than that. Not to mention the TL batterie's on the Death Star. They couldn't fire on the rebel fighters since they were made for battling capital ships. 3 km away from the DS is spitting range.

Not to mention that the ROTJ battle started at about 100 km distance to begin with, and that was considered point blank range. Duh, I say. Btw, the longest range derived from the movies is 19 000 km.

EDIT: Well, maybe I should clarify this a bit. This is the longest range they have been actually firing at that we have seen, not a maximum range. For example, the Star Destroyers took up geosynchronous orbit around Hoth prior to the attack. Geosynchronous orbit around Earth is 35,786 Km. Hoth cannot be much smaller than Earth, since it has comparative gravity, so the figure stands.

Accuracy:

Highly dependant on what they are fired at. ROTJ gives approximately 70% hit rate.. actually more, since we can't say that bolts that disappear offscreen aren't meant for a target offscreen as well. Other instances such as the Devastator chasing the Tantive IV, the Avenger chasing the Millennium Falcon, and the TradeFed battleship firing on Queen Amidala's ship are all inadmissible, since they weren't trying to destroy their targets, just disable and capture them. A direct, fullpower hit would be an instant kill, as can be seen in the opening scene of TPM were a light TL completely destroys the Republic Cruiser, or the instance where a heavy TL's breaks through the shields of a Star Destroyer in ROTJ.

The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology Pg. 80: While most pilots prefer visual sighting-wich is why most energy beams are configured to the visible light-spectrum-integrated combat computers and turret servos automatically make minute adjustments to improve fire accuracy. In space combat there is nothing more deadly than a highly skilled gunner paired with a good targetting computer.

I should also point out that visual targeting is used quite often in SW, beacuse the common presence of jamming which deters both accuracy and range severely.

starwars.com: Imperial gunners wore a helmet cast of neutral alloy armor, with a built-in targeting computer link-up. The dark helmet helps suppress some of the dangerous flashback from such massive cannons as the turbolasers and superlaser found aboard the original Death Star.

Star Wars IV: A New Hope Novellization Pg. 194 : "Maintain visual scanning," Blue Leader directed. "With all this energy flying, they'll be on top of you before your scope can pick them up. Remember, they can jam every instrument on your ship except your eyes."

[DarkStar]

Range:

Star Wars Technical Journal - Death Star range = 47,060,000 km

Where does that range come from? I know of no canon basis. At Alderaan, the DS was about 77,000 kilometers distant, and at Yavin, the DS was probably no more than two or three million kilometers distant when it planned to fire (Jupiter's Galilean moons orbit in the range of 422,000 to 1.8 million km from Jupiter).

Behind The Magic CD-Rom - Death Star range = 100 space units

Imperator-class Star Destroyer
LIGHT Turbolaser range
Short = 3 - 15 Space Units
Medium = 36 Space Units
Long = 75 Space Units

Conclusion: Turbolaser maximum range = 35 295 000 km.

Or, from the Alderaan range, you get 57,750km. From the highest likely Yavin range, you get 2.25 million km. These would represent maximum weapon range, not effective weapons range, since the slowness of a turbolaser bolt and accuracy issues would preclude their use at these ranges.

Interestingly, the LTL is given a minimum range here, suggesting that they cannot be used at a range shorter than 3 space units, which would translate as 2,310km/Alderaan, or 90,000km/Yavin. How odd.

Not to mention that the ROTJ battle started at about 100 km distance to begin with, and that was considered point blank range. Duh, I say.

Where is that figure derived from?

Bear in mind that I'm not arguing for tiny (<10km) ranges for SW vehicles. My main purpose in posting those quotes was to provide counterexamples to the circle jerk that seemed to be going on about SW ships firing into a system. Based on the canon, I would give SW capital ship weapons ranges at least 100km against mobile targets.

Don't get me wrong, though... Han says when trying to chase down the TIE fighter that it is out of range, and it was only about 200 meters ahead of the Falcon. Even if it was just an accuracy problem, it would still make an ISD incapable of being reliably hit at 54 kilometers. This fits in nicely with the Interceptor-10km quote.

[Darth Yoshi]

DarkStar, you have to remember that weapons range and optimal combat range are two very different things. Technologically, combat can take place at distances of hundreds or thousands of km. But humans can only engage at distances of several km, because at those distances, they have a reasonable chance of hitting their targets. Think of it like this. I'm directly in front of you, 3 km away, and I shoot at you with a rocket. Of course you'll see it coming, and move out of the way. But what if I'm in front of you, 10 meters away, and fire the same rocket at you. You'll have a much harder time dodging.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

DarkStar, You're confusing "effective range" and "maximum range". Just because the DS wouldn't hit an object 40,000,000 km away doesn't mean it can't fire 40,000,000 km. The scenes from the movies establish something called a "lower limit".

[Master of Ossus]

Also remember that at extreme ranges it is MUCH easier to hit a target that will not move (orbital bombardment) than it is to strike a moving ship, even a very large and ponderous one. Even a slight maneuver in such a ship, at such a range, may send a shot hurtling off towards nothingness. Thus, with weapons that propogate at only lightspeed or similar, it is nearly impossible to hit moving targets beyond a certain range, regardless of how good your sensors and computers are. The fact is, none of those systems can predict the future with any consistency, and so there are bound to be many misses at ranges where more than a few seconds separate the firing of the shot to its actually striking a target.

[Howedar]

Interestingly, the LTL is given a minimum range here, suggesting that they cannot be used at a range shorter than 3 space units, which would translate as 2,310km/Alderaan, or 90,000km/Yavin. How odd.

Only if you also believe that a target cannot be hit between 15 and 36 space units.

Well, considering who I'm talking to, maybe ou do believe that.

[nightmare]

Where does that range come from? I know of no canon basis. At Alderaan, the DS was about 77,000 kilometers distant, and at Yavin, the DS was probably no more than two or three million kilometers distant when it planned to fire (Jupiter's Galilean moons orbit in the range of 422,000 to 1.8 million km from Jupiter).

As I said, SWTJ. I know the ranges seen on the screen.


Or, from the Alderaan range, you get 57,750km. From the highest likely Yavin range, you get 2.25 million km. These would represent maximum weapon range, not effective weapons range, since the slowness of a turbolaser bolt and accuracy issues would preclude their use at these ranges.


Correct reasoning, although I see no reason why the superlaser should be restricted to Alderaan range. It was in fact oddly close.. potentially dangerous even, if not for the deflector shield. Most likely, Tarkin wanted a nice big view for Leia to ponder over. As for the slowness.. they seem to fire at varying ranges at the same speed.. odd, but canon.. then you have the laser part as well.


Interestingly, the LTL is given a minimum range here, suggesting that they cannot be used at a range shorter than 3 space units, which would translate as 2,310km/Alderaan, or 90,000km/Yavin. How odd.


Yes it is. However, only the 75 space units is mentioned in BTM. The other comes from WEG, lower on the scale of credibility.


Where is that figure derived from?


Scaling from ROTJ.


Bear in mind that I'm not arguing for tiny (<10km) ranges for SW vehicles. My main purpose in posting those quotes was to provide counterexamples to the circle jerk that seemed to be going on about SW ships firing into a system. Based on the canon, I would give SW capital ship weapons ranges at least 100km against mobile targets.


Ok.. that's better than some people I've heard..


Don't get me wrong, though... Han says when trying to chase down the TIE fighter that it is out of range, and it was only about 200 meters ahead of the Falcon. Even if it was just an accuracy problem, it would still make an ISD incapable of being reliably hit at 54 kilometers. This fits in nicely with the Interceptor-10km quote.


Well.. the incident with the Queen's ship when the TF ship hit an R2 droid suggests pretty good precision. You might say that it was a fluke shot, but the TF ship obviously tried to stop them, not destroy them, and taking out the droid repairing the shields seem in perfectly good order to do that. (Once the Queen's ships was past the TF converted freighter, they stopped firing completely.) And of course we have the usual heavy jamming interfering with targeting.

[Ender]

So you are comparing fighter ranges to HTL battery ranges? You're kidding me right? After you posted things at SB that supported ICS against your point, I didn't think you could get any dumber, but apparently I was wrong.

Take a shotgun and see how far it can shoot. Then man a 20 on an Iowa class battleship and see how far that can shoot. See my point here? No, of course not...

In addition, you might want to dig up a copy of X-Wing Rogue Squadron where it is stated that they zero the guns at 2 klicks because that is optimal dogfighting range. It's at the part when Wedge is inspecting his fighter. Maybe someone else has the quote.

[nightmare]

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. The Alderaan scene would establish an upper limit if this was all we saw. But at Yavin, the DS would have fired at a longer range, so 6 planetary diameters (~75000 km) clearly wasn't an upper limit. And since the DS would have fired at Yavin IV as soon as it got a clear shot, not when it got into range, this isn't an upper limit either.

So we are left with DS range = 47,060,000 km.

[consequences]

actually we are left with Darkstar = hypocritical git, but better debaters than I have tried to get through his logic repelling shields

[Alyrium Denryle]

The X-wing novels are based on game mechanics, they therefore do not fit with the rest of the starwars universe.

[Darth Yoshi]

Well.. the incident with the Queen's ship when the TF ship hit an R2 droid suggests pretty good precision. You might say that it was a fluke shot, but the TF ship obviously tried to stop them, not destroy them, and taking out the droid repairing the shields seem in perfectly good order to do that. (Once the Queen's ships was past the TF converted freighter, they stopped firing completely.) And of course we have the usual heavy jamming interfering with targeting.

It might have been a fluke, but IIRC, several astromechs were taken out by the Trade Federation. I don't think they're that lucky.

[Master of Ossus]

Well.. the incident with the Queen's ship when the TF ship hit an R2 droid suggests pretty good precision. You might say that it was a fluke shot, but the TF ship obviously tried to stop them, not destroy them, and taking out the droid repairing the shields seem in perfectly good order to do that. (Once the Queen's ships was past the TF converted freighter, they stopped firing completely.) And of course we have the usual heavy jamming interfering with targeting.

It might have been a fluke, but IIRC, several astromechs were taken out by the Trade Federation. I don't think they're that lucky.

And, according to the novel, the ship was rolling at the time both making the astromechs much more difficult to target anyway, and also confusing the sensors on the TF ship. Note that the novel is also canon, since it is not contradicted by the movie.

[DarkStar]

DarkStar, you have to remember that weapons range and optimal combat range are two very different things.

DarkStar, You're confusing "effective range" and "maximum range".

Guys, guys ... I actually referred to effective versus maximum range in my post. Chill.

[LMSx]

Also, the farther away from an object, the more accurate you have to be.

If you shoot a gun from 1 foot away at a human and are aiming at his chest, even if your hand is shaking, the gun's probably going to hit.

If you shoot the same gun from 5 feet away, you must have a steadier hand to shoot the person in the stomach.

If you shoot the same gun from 100 feet away, the tiniest twitch to the left will send the bullet flying away, missing the person by tens of feet.

It fits with the entire premise of the X-Wing saga, which is snubfighters piloted and shooting targets accurately.

[DarkStar]

Where is that figure derived from?

Scaling from ROTJ.

The window scene?

Bear in mind that I'm not arguing for tiny (<10km) ranges for SW vehicles. My main purpose in posting those quotes was to provide counterexamples to the circle jerk that seemed to be going on about SW ships firing into a system. Based on the canon, I would give SW capital ship weapons ranges at least 100km against mobile targets.

Ok.. that's better than some people I've heard..[/quote]

That, of course, is effective range against mobile (i.e. maneuverable) targets which are larger than fighters. Maximum range would almost certainly be much greater, as would range against unmoving (or unmaneuverable) targets.

Well.. the incident with the Queen's ship when the TF ship hit an R2 droid suggests pretty good precision. You might say that it was a fluke shot, but the TF ship obviously tried to stop them, not destroy them, and taking out the droid repairing the shields seem in perfectly good order to do that. (Once the Queen's ships was past the TF converted freighter, they stopped firing completely.) And of course we have the usual heavy jamming interfering with targeting.

Well, I doubt they would be shooting droids... it would have made more sense to target the now-damaged and open hatch where they'd already produced damage sufficient for the crew to risk all those repair droids. Also, judging by the way the weapons fire was going wild all around the ship, it would be hard to support fire precision from that example.

Just taking a look at the film, assuming it was shot in 35mm (which I'm not at all sure about), using the 3,000 meter length/width for the TF battleship, it would appear that the Neimoidians were firing from about 60 kilometers. That's just a quick-and-dirty estimate, though, so quote me on that at your peril. Also, just so my heavily pixellated download of "The Phantom Edit" wouldn't have too much crap all over the ship, that is actually the range just before they opened fire.

But, for our purposes, 60km makes a decent estimate. Against the 76 meter long Naboo royal starship, that isn't too bad.

Strangely, though, their accuracy didn't really improve, even when the ship got closer... perhaps due to maneuvering. (I wouldn't think jamming would be the issue, since the pilot was so insistent that it was not a military ship (thus no cloak, worthwhile weapons (if any at all), and so on).)

Of course, you can argue they were firing to stop them, but I'd say that a ship which just flew into their face should have been relatively easy to disable with a few low-power shots to the engines, and a tractor beam if available.

As for not firing when the ship passed, that is odd. But, the weapons turrets didn't seem to be capable of turning fast enough to get a shot, or else they simply stopped turning as the ship passed.

[Howedar]

The chances of the TF hitting multiple meter and a half tall astromechs accidently while aiming at the 76m long ship is damn low.

[Crossover_Maniac]

I should also point out that visual targeting is used quite often in SW, beacuse the common presence of jamming which deters both accuracy and range severely.

SNIP!

Star Wars IV: A New Hope Novellization Pg. 194 : "Maintain visual scanning," Blue Leader directed. "With all this energy flying, they'll be on top of you before your scope can pick them up. Remember, they can jam every instrument on your ship except your eyes."

If FTL signals can be jammed, then that means that gunners manning the TL would be limited to light-speed for target information. Location, rate of speed. This would leave a time-lag. If the Falcon was in a battle with a ISD and could somehow jam its sensors and were four light-second away, the gunners could only see the Falcon where they were four seconds ago, they would then have to aim at where they might be, shoot, wait four more seconds for the turbolaser bolt to hit, and they wouldn't know if it did hit until another four seconds has passed. So, with jamming, a ship has only an affective range of one or two light-seconds.

[DarkStar]

After you posted things at SB that supported ICS against your point, I didn't think you could get any dumber, but apparently I was wrong.

Funny that you quoted the opponent in that one, instead of thinking for yourself. Nothing I said supported the ICS point.

That's twice you've done something like that... do you ever think?

Take a shotgun and see how far it can shoot. Then man a 20 on an Iowa class battleship and see how far that can shoot. See my point here? No, of course not...

Unlike Iowa Class Battleships, we have not seen profound differences in range between the various weapons emplacements of Imperial starships. Also, your comparison is faulty, because it would be the equivalent of comparing blaster range to the range of an HTL.

Mainly, though, I find it amusing that you ignored the starship range quotes and jumped on the fighter range quotes, even though I'd already pointed out the fact that most of what I had offerred only referred to fighter ranges. You're not very original at all, are you?

[Ender]

After you posted things at SB that supported ICS against your point, I didn't think you could get any dumber, but apparently I was wrong.

Funny that you quoted the opponent in that one, instead of thinking for yourself. Nothing I said supported the ICS point.

That's twice you've done something like that... do you ever think?

I am Redneck Jedi you dumbass.

Take a shotgun and see how far it can shoot. Then man a 20 on an Iowa class battleship and see how far that can shoot. See my point here? No, of course not...

Unlike Iowa Class Battleships, we have not seen profound differences in range between the various weapons emplacements of Imperial starships. Also, your comparison is faulty, because it would be the equivalent of comparing blaster range to the range of an HTL. [/quote]I just gave one that shows quite a difference in range. See the first page.

Mainly, though, I find it amusing that you ignored the starship range quotes and jumped on the fighter range quotes, even though I'd already pointed out the fact that most of what I had offerred only referred to fighter ranges. You're not very original at all, are you?

Because you provided no starship range quotes, only one that described a space station, and one that said they were expanding their sensor search while cruising into range. If you post nothing relevent, I have nothing to respond to

[nightmare]

The window scene?

-----
Yes.


Well, I doubt they would be shooting droids... it would have made more sense to target the now-damaged and open hatch where they'd already produced damage sufficient for the crew to risk all those repair droids. Also, judging by the way the weapons fire was going wild all around the ship, it would be hard to support fire precision from that example.

-----
Uhm. Considering the angle of the hatch ws the TF ship, it would be impossible to hit the hatch. It's not like they presented the whole length of the ship to fire on. Even a tiny astromech is a better target than that hole. I don't even think they had a line of sight at it the whole time.


Just taking a look at the film, assuming it was shot in 35mm (which I'm not at all sure about), using the 3,000 meter length/width for the TF battleship, it would appear that the Neimoidians were firing from about 60 kilometers. That's just a quick-and-dirty estimate, though, so quote me on that at your peril. Also, just so my heavily pixellated download of "The Phantom Edit" wouldn't have too much crap all over the ship, that is actually the range just before they opened fire.

But, for our purposes, 60km makes a decent estimate. Against the 76 meter long Naboo royal starship, that isn't too bad.

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If you can show me a cap where they actually present the whole 76 metres as a target, yes.


Strangely, though, their accuracy didn't really improve, even when the ship got closer... perhaps due to maneuvering. (I wouldn't think jamming would be the issue, since the pilot was so insistent that it was not a military ship (thus no cloak, worthwhile weapons (if any at all), and so on).)

Of course, you can argue they were firing to stop them, but I'd say that a ship which just flew into their face should have been relatively easy to disable with a few low-power shots to the engines, and a tractor beam if available.

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Erhm... the engines are at the rear of the ship. How to hit them when the ship is coming towards you? It is obvious from the dialogue that the Neimoidians were trying to capture them. The droid control ship wasn't a standard converted battleship, it is quite possible that it had no tractor beams.



As for not firing when the ship passed, that is odd. But, the weapons turrets didn't seem to be capable of turning fast enough to get a shot, or else they simply stopped turning as the ship passed.

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The TF ship had turbolasers in that direction also as far as I know. I'd say the Neimoidians thought they couldn't stop them without killing the queen once they got shields back. Why they thought so is another matter.

[DarkStar]

I am Redneck Jedi you dumbass.

Ah, I see ... MPD. Gotcha.

Because you provided no starship range quotes, only one that described a space station, and one that said they were expanding their sensor search while cruising into range. If you post nothing relevent, I have nothing to respond to

From what I understand, he could see and resolve the station with his naked eyes, but not shoot it. Even if you assume the station was a Jupiter-sized monstrosity, this doesn't speak well for weapons range.

[DarkStar]

Uhm. Considering the angle of the hatch ws the TF ship, it would be impossible to hit the hatch.

Well, they did already hit it once...

It's not like they presented the whole length of the ship to fire on. Even a tiny astromech is a better target than that hole.

An easier target, yes, but a less useful one. Blowing apart droids would have been unnecessary if they had simply reduced the tech under that hatch to pieces of its former self.

I don't even think they had a line of sight at it the whole time.

Possible... but we didn't see much maneuvering by the SR-71 until it got within point-blank range of the TF ship.

But, for our purposes, 60km makes a decent estimate. Against the 76 meter long Naboo royal starship, that isn't too bad.

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If you can show me a cap where they actually present the whole 76 metres as a target, yes.

Bah, didn't I already do enough math?

Okay, so I looked for schematics of the Naboo royal ship ... the closest I found was this:

http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/spacecra ... naboo1.jpg

Oh, well.

I'd guess she's 20-30 meters wide, give or take (meaning they ought to be able to shoot at the Falcon at that range).

Strangely, though, their accuracy didn't really improve, even when the ship got closer... perhaps due to maneuvering. (I wouldn't think jamming would be the issue, since the pilot was so insistent that it was not a military ship (thus no cloak, worthwhile weapons (if any at all), and so on).)

Of course, you can argue they were firing to stop them, but I'd say that a ship which just flew into their face should have been relatively easy to disable with a few low-power shots to the engines, and a tractor beam if available.

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Erhm... the engines are at the rear of the ship. How to hit them when the ship is coming towards you? It is obvious from the dialogue that the Neimoidians were trying to capture them. The droid control ship wasn't a standard converted battleship, it is quite possible that it had no tractor beams.

The engines extend to the front, as well. Even if they could only shoot at the little cone in the back to disable the engines, this point would have been available for targeting as the ship flew past the blockading TF battleships.