Role reversal Good Covenant?

[Battlehymn Republic]

Coming hot off the heels of my wacky Serious Red vs. Blue Civil War idea and inspired in part by the Fascist BSG fanfic, here's another question for a concept- how could Halo's story be reversed to depict the UNSC as evil, and the Covenant as good?

I got the idea earlier when I was looking at the Halopedia article about the UNSC. I remember that previously there was an article about them in Wikipedia that mentioned the government structure, culture, etc. of the UNSC's actual parent body is completely unknown because the game doesn't talk about them. So a funny idea struck me- what if the UNSC is a total band of totalitarian bastards who just became completely sympathetic because the Covenant attacked them (and because they're all humans)? And once the Haloverse humans got done with the war, they'd just continue on with whatever savage policies they had before. It'd be analogous to this.

It could be amusing.

[Sarevok]

I sometimes picture the UNSC like the Alliance from Firefly. Like the Alliance the UNSC was fighting a bitter conflict with rebel groups, that was originaly what the Spartans used to do before the Covenant appeared. Also like the Alliance the UNSC is very fond of kidnapping children and turning them into weapons as the Spartan program shows. They even expanded to space for same reasons the founders of Serenity system left Earth - overpopulation. They arose from similar circumstance with a vaguely similar techbase. Ultimately both the UNSC and the Alliance see themselves as good people, sacrificing themselves for a better world. They truly share the belief the ends justify the means in their fight for this better world.

[TithonusSyndrome]

Wasn't Master Chief born as an abnormally large child who was abducted by some UNSC agency around the time he was six or seven to be turned into a SPARTAN II, and was replaced with a flash clone that died quickly thereafter? I started questioning the sympathetic portrayal of the UNSC around the time I read that.

[Noble Ire]

Wasn't Master Chief born as an abnormally large child who was abducted by some UNSC agency around the time he was six or seven to be turned into a SPARTAN II, and was replaced with a flash clone that died quickly thereafter? I started questioning the sympathetic portrayal of the UNSC around the time I read that.

That was how the UNSC collected all of the candidates for the SPARTAN-II program, yes.

The UNSC is portrayed as being rather ruthless and totalitarian, even at its height. Then again, one could argue that this was out of necessity: we only see it in-depth during two periods of intense strife, the Insurgency and the war with the Covenant. The former produced large numbers of civilian casualties and threatened to cleave away a large portion of the state, and the latter literally brought humanity to the edge of extinction. Going purely by the canon, I'm not sure if one can make a viable judgment about how the UNSC might have been before the Insurgency, or how it might be run after the destruction of the Ark and the re-taking of Earth (though, considering the level of destruction inflicted upon the Sol system and her colonies, I wouldn't expect a democratic utopia any time soon).

[DPDarkPrimus]

The population of humanity was reduced to only 200 million by Halo 3. There isn't going to be a utopian system for a long time.

[Sarevok]

Funny thing happened to me while playing Assault on the Control Room. Sergent Johnson killed me by accident then remarked "Damn back to the umemployment office for me !". Seems like the economic situation in UNSC must be very bad for people to consider a suicidal job like joining the UNSC marines.

[White Haven]

Orrr humanity could be facing total eradication at the hands or hand-equivalents of an implacable alien armada, and if it doesn't fight back then those in the unpemployment lines are going to be bombed to ash?

[Lazarus]

The population of humanity was reduced to only 200 million by Halo 3. There isn't going to be a utopian system for a long time.

Isn't that from some sort of background book that came with the game? It gives a bunch of utterly random, nonsensical numbers, so I wouldn't take that too literally. 200 million on Earth, quite possibly. 200 million total, despite the remaining Inner Colonies, scattered Outer Colonies and god knows how many smaller settlements? I don't think so.

[Noble Ire]

The population of humanity was reduced to only 200 million by Halo 3. There isn't going to be a utopian system for a long time.

Isn't that from some sort of background book that came with the game? It gives a bunch of utterly random, nonsensical numbers, so I wouldn't take that too literally. 200 million on Earth, quite possibly. 200 million total, despite the remaining Inner Colonies, scattered Outer Colonies and god knows how many smaller settlements? I don't think so.

Most of the numbers in the Beastarium (at least those pertaining to the Covenant) actually make a certain degree of sense if one takes the population totals given as being for homeworlds rather than for entire species. This is implied by the source itself, and one of its more suspect numbers, a population of a few hundred million for the Unggoy, makes perfect sense as a homeworld figure given the near-destruction of the planet during the Unggoy Rebellion a century or less before the start of the UNSC-Covenant War (noted in Contact Harvest).

Nevertheless, the human population stated post-war is a bit hard to reconcile. The problem is two-fold: First, the Beastarium implies that as of 2553, there are zero significant human population centers left outside of Earth (the term "significant" is not expanded upon, so it is possible that some small colonies and military bases are not included). It is know that by the time of Halo: Combat Evolved, the UNSC has been reduced to a fraction of its former size, losing all of its "Outer Colonies" and every major militarized world outside of Earth itself, along wth a substantial number of its "inner" planets (the actual size of the UNSC at it height is in question: earlier sources imply an empire of hundreds of worlds, but Contact Harvest indicates that there were less then twenty major colonies at the time of Harvest's destruction, perhaps even less than twenty colonies in total). Either way, humanity should have had more than just the Sol system left by the end of the war; either the Covenant was able to locate and destroy human colonies at a rate exponentially faster than at any previous point in their crusade following the Battle of Reach, or a contradiction is apparent.

The second problem with the given number is that even if it was for just Earth itself, 200 million would seem to be far too low. The damage to the plant inflicted by the Covenant assault, subsequent occupation, and the Flood incident was quite severe, as Miranda Keyes herself states in Halo 3. New Mombasa and Voi (along with an unknown portion of the African continent) were annihilated, most if not all of Earth's orbital elevators were toppled, and orbital views of the planet during and after the battle reveal that large areas of its landmass were glassed, either intentionally or by misfire. Nevertheless, Halo: Uprising and Ghosts of Onyx make clear that areas as disparate as Cuba and Cleveland were left intact at least up until the beginning of Truth's occupation. It is possible that all areas outside of Africa were glassed by the time of the Ark's activation, lending credence to the 200 million number, but one would suspect that such an intense bombardment would render even those parts of the planet not directly attacked more or less unlivable; however, Halo 3's cinematic shows humans standing outside without need of obvious survival gear. However, one must remember that a similar phenomenon occurred on Reach; a large majority of the world's surface was glassed, but a small percentage was left intact and livable to allow Covenant ground forces to locate a buried Forerunner facility.

Based on all of this, I can make two suppositions, both taking the 200 million figure as being for Earth alone (considering the colonies leads to a different issue, as discussed above). Either a vast majority of the Earth surface was indeed glassed by the end of the battle, leaving only a few cities (the level of urbanization shown on Earth implies that most of the population was centered on sprawling metropolises, a fact that may have contributed to the staggering death-toll), probably in Northern Africa or on out-of-the-way islands, or a good deal of the planet's populace managed to evacuate before or during the Covenant assault, leaving Earth relatively deserted. Given the know evidence, I'm more inclined towards the former explanation, but that is hardly the only possibility.

[Icehawk]

The population numbers are from the Halo 3 bestiarum guide that comes with the collectors and "legendary" editions of the game. The numbers themselves all make sense for being representative of the homeworlds of all the various species. 200,000,000 for humanity on earth makes sense after the pounding it got.

The only somewhat odd number I found was the population listed for the Grunts which was something like 500 million IIRC. However their homeworld could very well just be smaller than most and given their servant roll in Covanent society most of them are just spread throughout the Covanent fleets and planets.

[Icehawk]

EDIT: My post was in response to Lazarus.

[Almightyboredone]

I've only looked at my friend's copy of the book, but if I recall, there was an oddity with the prophet's section... the had the population, then a smaller population listed below it, labled 'current'. Mabye could the population lists be the original repopulations after the halos were fired? The amount of specimens collected by the archiver?

[Sarevok]

Speaking of population Sgt Stacker remarked "One down 50 billion to go !" when after dropping a Grunt in Halo : CE level 02. Anyone know if that was the officially accepted Grunt population ?

[Tanasinn]

It's probably just a turn of speech; grunts are ubiquitous in almost all Covenant armies. I would expect for there to be several billion grunts at least, however.

At this point, I dismiss the 200 million figure for Earth as non-canon; it doesn't really reconcile with what we see in the games and the beastiary itself notes that it's bound to have some inaccuracies. I can believe the lower alien populations: many are probably largely relocated from their homeworlds. Earth, on the other hand, has always been indicated to be the heart of humanity in the games; I find it hard to believe that emigration had left it mostly empty.

[DPDarkPrimus]

At this point, I dismiss the 200 million figure for Earth as non-canon

Even though it's from a canon source? Yeah, okay.

Earth, on the other hand, has always been indicated to be the heart of humanity in the games; I find it hard to believe that emigration had left it mostly empty.

Earth is all that's left of humanity, and it's been under assault by the Covenant fleets since the indeterminate period of time between Halo 2 and Halo 3. It's not depopulated by choice.

[Setzer]

It really depends on how self sufficient the small colonies were. If they could survive without shipments from more industrialized worlds, if they were small enough to escape Covenant eyes, they may still be out there.

[Tanasinn]

At this point, I dismiss the 200 million figure for Earth as non-canon

Even though it's from a canon source? Yeah, okay.

Earth, on the other hand, has always been indicated to be the heart of humanity in the games; I find it hard to believe that emigration had left it mostly empty.

Earth is all that's left of humanity, and it's been under assault by the Covenant fleets since the indeterminate period of time between Halo 2 and Halo 3. It's not depopulated by choice.

On the first point, it's mostly just a matter of me looking at the figure and saying "this is stupid" and deciding to ignore it. This is sort of behavior on my part is the same reason I don't get too worked up about lamer entries in the Star Wars EU. :p

As for involuntary depopulation, I find it somewhat hard to believe that the capitol world of an interstellar nation could be reduced to 200 million souls without absolute and very obvious devastation to the planet's ecosphere...yet we're set down on an Earth that, bombardments aside, is more-or-less intact. I'll be the first to admit it's not based on logic.

[Battlehymn Republic]

Maybe the disenfranchised people of earth, seeing the iron fist of the UNSC broken by the invasion, decided to rise up and challenge their cruel taskmasters, leading to a civil war of civil wars that brought forth plague, famine, and massive depopulation as well?

Hooray, now this thread ties in with my other Halo thread!

[Lazarus]

The numbers being for homeworlds makes more sense, and I can believe 200 million on Earth as an outside - remember that we see very few civilians in the games (only the builders in Halo3 if I'm right, who may have had essential jobs) so it's entirely possible that some form of evacuation ocurred. The UNSC were aware of the impending invasion after the discovery of the Unyielding Hierophant armada, so evacuation to other colonies is likely IMO. Losses from the invasion will have been high, but I would challenge the idea that 'most' of the planet has been glassed - it simply doesn't fit with what we see at the end of Halo3. Earth would be fucked up if most of it's surface was glassed, which evidently isn't the case. However, the orbital bombardment which may a have ocurred (I can't remember this being stated anywhere, actually, but it's likely), the fall of at least one orbital elevator, the excavation of the Portal, the in-atmosphere slipspace rupture etc would probably all cause significant loss of life.

[Darth Wong]

Regarding the 200 million population figure, Halo is retarded no matter how you look at it. You can try to take it seriously as Noble Ire does, but it has a truly childlike grasp of how destructive such wide-scale bombardment would be. According to Halo, when you glass entire continents, all you get is a slight glowing effect which dissipates in less than a second after the beam is shut off, with no collateral effects. This is damned near Bugs Bunny-level physics.

[Noble Ire]

Regarding the 200 million population figure, Halo is retarded no matter how you look at it. You can try to take it seriously as Noble Ire does, but it has a truly childlike grasp of how destructive such wide-scale bombardment would be. According to Halo, when you glass entire continents, all you get is a slight glowing effect which dissipates in less than a second after the beam is shut off, with no collateral effects. This is damned near Bugs Bunny-level physics.

I won't argue that a good deal of the physics in the Halo universe is rather questionable, Covenant glassings included. However, I'm inclined to think that the alleged destruction of Africa by the Separatist fleet ("glassed half of the continent" as Lord Hood puts it) may have been an exaggeration on the admiral's part. Given the fact that the view of the African landscape seen at the end of the game seemed unaffected by a large-scale bombardment, and the live-action commerical series (whose canon status is admittedly ambiguous) also suggests that at least the outermost areas of the New Mombasa district (those not destroyed by Regret's carrier in the initial engagement) were left intact after the war, I think it likely that the anti-Flood bombardment was limited to Voi and the surrounding area. Perhaps the Arbiter's forces overstepped their mandate and also eliminated the remainder of Truth's ground forces with excessive force, earning Hood's ire in the process (this is pure conjecture on my part, but it makes more sense than the alternative).

[JointStrikeFighter]

I won't argue that a good deal of the physics in the Halo universe is rather questionable, Covenant glassings included. However, I'm inclined to think that the alleged destruction of Africa by the Separatist fleet ("glassed half of the continent" as Lord Hood puts it) may have been an exaggeration on the admiral's part. Given the fact that the view of the African landscape seen at the end of the game seemed unaffected by a large-scale bombardment, and the live-action commerical series (whose canon status is admittedly ambiguous) also suggests that at least the outermost areas of the New Mombasa district (those not destroyed by Regret's carrier in the initial engagement) were left intact after the war, I think it likely that the anti-Flood bombardment was limited to Voi and the surrounding area. Perhaps the Arbiter's forces overstepped their mandate and also eliminated the remainder of Truth's ground forces with excessive force, earning Hood's ire in the process (this is pure conjecture on my part, but it makes more sense than the alternative).

My understanding is that from the co-ordinates displayed on the ODST visor's the battle in the live action shorts takes place in Western Pakistan.

[Noble Ire]

My understanding is that from the co-ordinates displayed on the ODST visor's the battle in the live action shorts takes place in Western Pakistan.

I was actually referring to the "Museum of Humanity" series of shorts, which relate to the battle at New Mombasa that took place after Regret's departure. They imply that the battlefield was intact enough to be analyzed in fine detail after the end of the war, and one short shows a former marine standing near the monument erected for the Master Chief and his comrades with vegetation visible in the background; neither of these would be possible had much of Africa actually been glassed.

[MJ12 Commando]

Maybe they used airburst strategic weapons, like tactical nukes? I mean, Hiroshima was resettled and back to its prewar population within ten years of being blasted by a nuke, IIRC.

It could be possible that by "glassed" they mean "nuked" and they use it as slang for nuclear weapons deployment.

[Noble Ire]

Maybe they used airburst strategic weapons, like tactical nukes? I mean, Hiroshima was resettled and back to its prewar population within ten years of being blasted by a nuke, IIRC.

It could be possible that by "glassed" they mean "nuked" and they use it as slang for nuclear weapons deployment.

Had the UNSC been the one cleansing the Flood infection, that might have been a possibility, but the Separatist fleet took on the role instead. Covenant warships don't use nuclear weapons, and one of the cut-scenes shows the Arbiter's ships opening up on Voi with their plasma cannons. The glassing Hood refers to was the literal transformation of the surface into glass via plasma weaponry, just as the Covenant did to most if not all of humanity's colony worlds.