Ork evolution

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

Wha?!?!

I thought mankind was a naturally psychic race (their relatively "high occurance" the god emperor of man guiding humanities evolution to that of the supreme psychic race in the galaxy).

You've got to pm me some books on this. I thought the pariah gene was just one of the many fucked up attributes that happens when you have a population in the sextillions.

[Peptuck]

Then what about humans in 40k? I'm still relatively new to the series, but from what I've gathered they are pretty much the only race that hasn't been fucked around with by some wierd and or mystic force other than themselves as far as their evolution is concerned.

Oh. They have. The C'tan have introduced the pariah gene, and it seems likely (given the relative lack of psykers amongst the Tau, and some other races) that psykers were introduced artificially too.

Xenology also hints that the Old Ones may have had something to do with humanity as well - the Eldar tablet showing the war with the Necrons and the species apparently created by the Old Ones has a missing piece that resembles a human infant in the womb.

There's also some hints that the Eldar created the Tau Ethereals from a Q'oorl (sp?) queen.

[NecronLord]

Wha?!?!

I thought mankind was a naturally psychic race (their relatively "high occurance" the god emperor of man guiding humanities evolution to that of the supreme psychic race in the galaxy).

Why aren't chimps and other primates with a comparatively recent common ancestry psychic? Far more psychic than us in fact, as human psykers died out to create the Emperor, centralising their potential for many generations, there should be chimps and apes and other relative species with psychic powers wandering around the forests at will. At what point did a psychic gene (present on a wide scale but not necesserily universal) enter the human genome?

Incidentally, there are a few examples of telepathic 'animals' in 40K, ranging from Gyrinxes (dating from RT to their most recent appearnace in the 4th Ed rulebook, with a warlock) to Crotalids (of the same antiquity, last seen in creature feature). There is even question over whether or not some eminently psychic races like the Jokaero and the Enslavers are sapient, even though they both have psychic abilities.

There's a good Babylon 5 story along similar lines to that by J. Gregory Keyes called The Nautilus Coil, which has a vorlon planet with various semi-sapient cousins of humanoid races, among whom the telepathy was developed, but in so doing, the Vorlons stunted their potential intelligence and so only allowed them them to exist on a reserved planet on the edge of their domain.

The hypothesis of that story is that it couldn't be natural, as a species with natural telepathy (or in this case, the warp) would never be pushed to develop complex tool use or language skills, as the most direct route to solving its problems would always be to use its magic. You don't need to hunt, because you can just make the animals kill one of their number and walk away. Communication? Never needs to express complex concepts, because the problem solving potential of a natural psyker is reduced to 'make the bad man stop' and 'come here til I eat you little fishie.'


Incidentally, according to the old Star-Child era fluff, the Emperor didn't so much drive humanity towards its psychic potential, as want to protect it from chaos long enough to survive that change.

You've got to pm me some books on this. I thought the pariah gene was just one of the many fucked up attributes that happens when you have a population in the sextillions.

Nope. Utterly unique to humans, insterted by the necrons. Don't need to PM you the link to the book, it's the Necron codex. Page eight or something...

Xenology also hints that the Old Ones may have had something to do with humanity as well - the Eldar tablet showing the war with the Necrons and the species apparently created by the Old Ones has a missing piece that resembles a human infant in the womb.

There's also some hints that the Eldar created the Tau Ethereals from a Q'oorl (sp?) queen.

It certainly suggests that the Last of the Old Ones, Qah, the Hrud god, who may have been chopped up around the time of the Birth of Slanessh, AD30,000 leaving the Umbra as his scattered remnants, may have been around in the right time period. He left the Hrud some 500,000 years ago, and is later (admittedly, by a crazy man, driven mad by Slanessh, so it may be absolute nonsense) said to have been 'up to his Old Ways' so presumably, altering species to fit in with some vision.

'Visted I was by the thirster in the dark, her who dance-moans, her who keeps the secrets breasted, her who came upon me and told and told. Time before she was born, she told, time before all that. Wars in heaven and hell, Star Devils lock horns triumphant and Old Gods killed-away. Killed, she says, all but one. Hid away, he did. Up to his Old Wars, tweaking and dabbling, poking and prodding. She says came a time when he's done his work, wants to hide and watch, always watching, so into the warp he goes.
'Then she's born in the longears' brains, see, and she laughs out loud and chops him a million times, and kicks the shards out into the cold. To linger, she says. To linger like always...'

Hrud religion is a peculiar subject. Where other races invariably regard their deities with a subconcious distance, the clarity of the Hrud mass-memory makes it likely that their legends are - if not real - then at least based upon real events. They have it that at the dawn of time their race was created by a pantheon of benevolent gods (the Slah-haii¹ or 'most ancient') who intended them to bask in the sun and be fruitful. All this changed when the dieties entered a ruinous war with the Yaam-khoh ('mirror devils') and were variously slain, crippled or forced to flee². According to the Hrud, only one of their Gods remained: Qah - 'he who lingers'.³ This solitary godhead, recognising the danger his beloved children were in, changed the Hrud into the nocturnal scavengers we know today. Curiously, around 500,000 years ago, Qah disappeared: informing the Hrud that he had great works to attend, and that they would be reunited at the time of the Raheed-skoh: when the tribes come together for the last battle against the Yaam-khoh.

As for the tablet and the humanoid baby figure. I'm struck by the resemblance with the shots of 2001's 'Star Child' figure. My interpretation of that area runs thusly; The 'baby' figure represents the Star Child, which recieves 'ribbons' both from one of the Old Ones below, as the Laughing God does, and from a humanoid figure standing next to it. Perhaps this is a prophecy that the Star Child will absorb both the abovementioned 'lingering' Qah and the Emperor, which would serve nicely as a retroactive explanation for why the Emperor doesn't quite know what his gestating alter-ego is up to in the Ian Watson Inquisition War books, as well as providing a nice means for the Star Child not to solely inherit the Emperor's speciesist tendancies and the immensely fascist outlook of his underlings and worshippers who are 'feeding' him, and end up a screaming lunatic-god that spends all its time trying to purge everything that doesn't meet an arbitrary definition of 'human.'

¹ Note the similarity to the name of the Slaan/Slanii. If this is the actual (or at least a contemporary, along with Ur-folk, perhaps) name of the Old Ones, perhaps their 'favourite servants' have a similar meaning name.
² Remaining Old Ones in other galaxies?
³ 'To linger like always' indeed.

[Big Orange]

I can see the Old Ones being the primary force in seeding humanoid life in the Milky Way (or other neighbouring galaxies), even going as far as engineering solar systems so that humanoid life could live on nearly duplicate inner planets with similar gravity levels and eco systems to each other. I wouldn't be surprised that the relatively recent Tau were the "product" of the Eldar emulating the Old Ones or maybe a lone Old One who did his treaking then up and left from the Milky Way (still a bad neighbourhood, but there must be other galaxies with no Chaos, C'Tan or Tyranids about). Wasn't the pariah gene, given by the C'Tan, the fear of death? And the Necrons' living ancestors were said to have visited Earth in prehistoric times....

[NecronLord]

I can see the Old Ones being the primary force in seeding humanoid life in the Milky Way (or other neighbouring galaxies), even going as far as engineering solar systems so that humanoid life could live on nearly duplicate inner planets with similar gravity levels and eco systems to each other. I wouldn't be surprised that the relatively recent Tau were the "product" of the Eldar emulating the Old Ones or maybe a lone Old One who did his treaking then up and left from the Milky Way (still a bad neighbourhood, but there must be other galaxies with no Chaos, C'Tan or Tyranids about).

According to the above quotes, the Tau post-date the last known old one. However, the Eldar, or the Slaan, could both be candidates for interfering with them.

Wasn't the pariah gene, given by the C'Tan, the fear of death? And the Necrons' living ancestors were said to have visited Earth in prehistoric times....

Only poetically. Though the necrons themselves could have done so too. As it is imaginable could the Necrontyr. There's scope that covers the entire ages of the dinosaurs in Necrontyr civilisation.

[andrewgpaul]

That Creature Feature article is quite interesting, not least for the fact that the author is apparently a fan on early 90s Brit-pop. "Animal Nitrate", indeed

[Adrian Laguna]

Incorrectly, it's explicitly stated in one of the HH novels that Dies Irae is written in an "ancient Earth Tongue".

Heh, I had to use the one example that doesn't meet the rule.

Anyway, I seriously doubt "Adeptus Astartes", "Adepta Sororita", "Officio Assassinorum", etc are all actual Latin names. From what I understand these are High Gothic names which are presented in Latin because the Low Gothic equivalents are rendered in English, and the relationship between High and Low Gothic is supposed to be somewhat similar to that between English and Latin.

Oh and relating to my comment about pronouncing Latin properly, it's likely that you're supposed to say the names of 40k stuff in Ecclesiastical Latin. That is, read them as they appear. It's just that I prefer the way Classical Latin sounds.

[Adrian Laguna]

We live on a planet that we have seen fit to name, over and over again in hundreds of different languages, "Dirt".

Hey, hey, I protest. The word "earth" may be synonymous with "dirt", but it does not mean the same thing.

The hypothesis of that story is that it couldn't be natural, as a species with natural telepathy (or in this case, the warp) would never be pushed to develop complex tool use or language skills, as the most direct route to solving its problems would always be to use its magic. You don't need to hunt, because you can just make the animals kill one of their number and walk away. Communication? Never needs to express complex concepts, because the problem solving potential of a natural psyker is reduced to 'make the bad man stop' and 'come here til I eat you little fishie.'

The problem is that "make the bad man stop" doesn't work when "the bad man" just so happens to be a psyker as well. It becomes a contest of will rather than the contest of physical strength that it would have been with non-psykers. That still leaves the issue that hunting for food would be pitifully easy.

Intelligence could possibly arise in a planet where a lot of animal species have psychic powers because of wits being the only way to defeat raw psychic power without having more power yourself.

[NecronLord]

The problem is that "make the bad man stop" doesn't work when "the bad man" just so happens to be a psyker as well. It becomes a contest of will rather than the contest of physical strength that it would have been with non-psykers. That still leaves the issue that hunting for food would be pitifully easy.

Again. No need for tool use. They just blast each other's brains out, with the one that's stronger winning breeding rights or whatever.

Intelligence could possibly arise in a planet where a lot of animal species have psychic powers because of wits being the only way to defeat raw psychic power without having more power yourself.

Possibly. But in that case, intelligence would not resemble what we're used to. Nor any race in 40k save the brain-spaw, err, Enslavers.


As for High-Gothic, it's worth noting that the 'ancient city of Nova Yoruk' is mentioned in the Space Wolf novel set on Earth (I forget its name). If New has become Nova, it's probable that High Gothic is actually rather close to our English.

[andrewgpaul]

I always liked to think of High Gothic being modern day English, but that's highly unlikely.

[Imperial Overlord]

The hypothesis of that story is that it couldn't be natural, as a species with natural telepathy (or in this case, the warp) would never be pushed to develop complex tool use or language skills, as the most direct route to solving its problems would always be to use its magic. You don't need to hunt, because you can just make the animals kill one of their number and walk away. Communication? Never needs to express complex concepts, because the problem solving potential of a natural psyker is reduced to 'make the bad man stop' and 'come here til I eat you little fishie.'

The problem is that "make the bad man stop" doesn't work when "the bad man" just so happens to be a psyker as well. It becomes a contest of will rather than the contest of physical strength that it would have been with non-psykers. That still leaves the issue that hunting for food would be pitifully easy.

Intelligence could possibly arise in a planet where a lot of animal species have psychic powers because of wits being the only way to defeat raw psychic power without having more power yourself.

On a related note, this is the background Larry Niven gave for the Thrintin (Slaver) race in his Known Space series. The Thrint originated on a world where a large number of species had developed telepathic abilities, most of them nonsentient. The Thrint were powerfully telepathic, spear wielding savages when an alien spacecraft made first contact and the Thrint enslaved them and started building a galaxy spanning empire. Incidently, the Thrint were pretty dumb. They had slaves to do science and technology. A large part of their brain was devoted to their telepathic abilities.

[Molyneux]

We live on a planet that we have seen fit to name, over and over again in hundreds of different languages, "Dirt".

Hey, hey, I protest. The word "earth" may be synonymous with "dirt", but it does not mean the same thing.

Um..."synonymous" means precisely that, I thought.

To be fair, not every name for Earth breaks down to "dirt". The Aztec phrase literally translates to "mother" - reminiscent of a fictional species in Mag Force Seven who named their world "Uterus".

[NecronLord]

Dirt has additional perjorative meanings that Earth does not. 'You're dirty' can mean entirely different things from 'you're earthy' though both could potentially be applied to someone covered in soil.

[Adrian Laguna]

Meanwhile, "earth" has meanings related to fertility and ability to give life. You can call any arbitrary piece of land "a patch of dirt", but referring to it as having earth implies that it can be cultivated.

[Big Orange]

According to the above quotes, the Tau post-date the last known old one. However, the Eldar, or the Slaan, could both be candidates for interfering with them.

Well I heard rumours that the Slaan are degenerate surviving descendents of the Old Ones anyway, and I also kinda of doubt the Elder would meddle with another race when they themselves cannot rid themselves of their own gene lock bestowed by the Old Ones, after tens of millions of years.

Only poetically. Though the necrons themselves could have done so too. As it is imaginable could the Necrontyr. There's scope that covers the entire ages of the dinosaurs in Necrontyr civilisation.

The Necrontyr were the direct ancestors of the Necrons, but I doubt they would see little gain in messing up the future of another race if they didn't do it under the auspices of their evil C'Tan masters...

[Bedlam]

Would the Eldar want to remove there own gene lock? Thye may well already think themselves as perfect and the only way would be down.

Would they want to diversify into numerous decendent species over time?

[The Grim Squeaker]

If I mmight point out some innacuraccies .

According to the above quotes, the Tau post-date the last known old one. However, the Eldar, or the Slaan, could both be candidates for interfering with them.

Well I heard rumours that the Slaan are degenerate surviving descendents of the Old Ones anyway,

The Slaan were/are servants of the Old ones, or are at the least descended from servants of the old ones. They are NOT degenerated Old ones, that's been made a (slightly vague) but clear point in newer fluff.

and I also kinda of doubt the Elder would meddle with another race when they themselves cannot rid themselves of their own gene lock bestowed by the Old Ones, after tens of millions of years.

Why would they want to change their race? For one, they have excellent reasons not to start meddling with their genes ("Let's bring back the newest fashions in triple angstrom Sex genes, like in the good old days!"), and another, why would they want to? Remember, they are a proud race, and why wouldn't it be easier to manipulate a fresh slate than their own species and risk creating horrible mutants. (The Old Ones were probably a fair bit more adept at the business than the modern "Ludite" Eldar, and they still fucked up).

Only poetically. Though the necrons themselves could have done so too. As it is imaginable could the Necrontyr. There's scope that covers the entire ages of the dinosaurs in Necrontyr civilisation.

The Necrontyr were the direct ancestors of the Necrons,

No, the Necrons ARE The Necrontyr (Post some...modifications).

but I doubt they would see little gain in messing up the future of another race if they didn't do it under the auspices of their evil C'Tan masters...

There are independant minded Necrons (Lords, Pariahs, etc'), though I don't quite get what your point is?

[defanatic]

IIRC, Squigs and squiggoths are a part of the ork gene pool. I might be wrong, though. :S

[NecronLord]

Well I heard rumours that the Slaan are degenerate surviving descendents of the Old Ones anyway,

That is semi-correct. The Old Ones used to be called the 'Ancient Slaan' however, it is worth noting that in WFB they are distinct from the Old Ones.

Mainstream Slaan culture is certainly not what the Necron Codex is talking about when it suggests that primative descendants might exist. The Slaan are one of the most advanced cultures around, even if they don't always look it.

and I also kinda of doubt the Elder would meddle with another race when they themselves cannot rid themselves of their own gene lock bestowed by the Old Ones, after tens of millions of years.

You assume they'd want to. They seem quite happy with the state of their existance. They live for thousands of years and are nigh immune to disease. They're also quite convinced they're perfect.

It's worth noting that the Dark Eldar may very possibly have genetically engineered themselves. They certainly feature differences from the standard eldar.

The Necrontyr were the direct ancestors of the Necrons, but I doubt they would see little gain in messing up the future of another race if they didn't do it under the auspices of their evil C'Tan masters...

There are preserved buildings on Naogeddon that supposedly date back to nine billion years 'pre-GA.'¹ The Necrontyr could potentially have stood on the surface of Earth when the most advanced thing that lived there was stromatalites, or when the entire world was an icy snowball.

Note that I did not say they had interfered. But the quote about them standing on Earth and 'determining our destiny' could go very far back indeed.

¹ Though this is when they were still saying the necrons went into stasis six hundred million years ago, mind.

[andrewgpaul]

¹ Though this is when they were still saying the necrons went into stasis six hundred million years ago, mind.

Why, what do they say now?

[NecronLord]

The current date for Necron stasis retreat is 60,000,000 years ago.

[andrewgpaul]

Meh, what's an order of magnitude between friends ?

[Cykeisme]

There's also some hints that the Eldar created the Tau Ethereals from a Q'oorl (sp?) queen.

Question.. what's a Q'oorl queen?

Also, though Orks are gene-locked, does that mean all the attributes manifested from their genes are locked, or just a large portion thereof? Are they still able to adapt?
I imagine that the ability to adapt in the face of threats that were not foreseen at the time of their forging would be very handy for a weapon-race.

Yes, that silly Imperial weedkiller crap is still getting on my nerves. I'd expect Orks (as a race) to be as naturally resistant to NBC methods of warfare as they are to conventional forms of extermination (e.g. dakka and kaboom).

Meh, what's an order of magnitude between friends ?

[Imperial Overlord]

There's also some hints that the Eldar created the Tau Ethereals from a Q'oorl (sp?) queen.

Question.. what's a Q'oorl queen?

The Q'oorl are a new race detailed in Xenology. They're bug-like, have had past contact with the Eldar, and their queens have suspiciously Ethereal-like methods of phermonic influence over other Q'oorl.

[NecronLord]

There's also some hints that the Eldar created the Tau Ethereals from a Q'oorl (sp?) queen.

Question.. what's a Q'oorl queen?

They're a race from the other side of the galaxy, with limited FTL capacity, who just happen to share the 'diamond organ' pheremone-generator the Ethereals have.

Also, though Orks are gene-locked, does that mean all the attributes manifested from their genes are locked, or just a large portion thereof? Are they still able to adapt?

Unknown. While the 'Chaos Child' example of this process shows that it prevents a species adapting to its enviroment, there are presumably limits to it.

I imagine that the ability to adapt in the face of threats that were not foreseen at the time of their forging would be very handy for a weapon-race.

On the one hand, yes. On the other hand, not so much. Any adaptation would probably make them less orky. And thus make the monstrous psionic gods they spawn in the warp, less belligerant and powerful.

Yes, that silly Imperial weedkiller crap is still getting on my nerves. I'd expect Orks (as a race) to be as naturally resistant to NBC methods of warfare as they are to conventional forms of extermination (e.g. dakka and kaboom).

Err.. They're not resistant to those. Orty will annihalate them just as easily as it will anyone else.