Battlestar Galactica - RAZOR Airs Tonight...

[CaptJodan]

In other words, if this movie was trying to redeem the Pegasus, it was a stunning failure, it only proved that the ship was full of murderers, psychos, and cowards.

I think this is a valid critism and goes back to some of McKay's suggestions. It felt to me as if they were trying to show Pegasus and Cain as redeemed at the end there with the Old Man's speech to Lee. It felt like Adama was trying to tell the audience that her motives, while horrible, were understandable. Yet unless you have the moral compass of Cain, you leave at the end likely still siding with Lee's perspective.

Something tells me that wasn't the intent. I think McKay's suggestions on how to make the transitions slower and the reasons behind her actions more of a tough call.

[CaptJodan]

Where was it stated the movie as a redemption of Pegasus?

I don't recall ever reading that beyond people assumptions.

I think it's pretty clear with Adama's speech to Lee that the writers think we should take Cain's actions into context with what she didn't have. She didn't have the President of the Colonies with her (clearly this would not have stopped her from her mission), she didn't have a "Lee" of her own. She didn't have a responsibility to others beyond her own crew and the needs to fuel the revenge she claimed she didn't own. Of course they don't come out and say it, but I think Adama put in a less vile log entry about Cain and the rest of the crew than did Lee.

[Gil Hamilton]

I think this is a valid critism and goes back to some of McKay's suggestions. It felt to me as if they were trying to show Pegasus and Cain as redeemed at the end there with the Old Man's speech to Lee. It felt like Adama was trying to tell the audience that her motives, while horrible, were understandable. Yet unless you have the moral compass of Cain, you leave at the end likely still siding with Lee's perspective.

Something tells me that wasn't the intent. I think McKay's suggestions on how to make the transitions slower and the reasons behind her actions more of a tough call.

Oh, I agree with McKay there and wasn't ranting against him, for the record. What didn't work about that scene to me was, as Adama noted, assuming that the boarding party was dead and loading up a missile (particularly giving the absurdly risky nature of Shaw's mission) to blow up the Cylons ship wasn't a bad call. It wasn't in the same league as what Cain did, Lee's angst aside, who pissed away the lives of her crew because she was a nutjob. Lee's attempt to make some moral equivalency was somewhat weak and Adama's speech was kind of forced.

I kind of think that it might have been more effective if they had then brought up the time Lee did make the call and took the shot, with the Olympic Carrier, where there was a grey area there where he might well have killed 2000 civilians in his decision, rather than a handful of soldiers who could well have been dead anyway.

[DrMckay]

The best part of "Battlestar" for me has been it's Gray area. Lee destroying the Olympic Carrier, Baltar fragging Crashdown on Kobol, Roslin banning abortion to gain political power, and help the species survive, Kara torturing Leoben for information, etc. All horrible acts, all possibly necessary and reasonably justifiable. (except leobens torture)

I think Razor would have been better servved to remember the "Gray area" and have some more questionable calls, Razor, while very well done, lacked the traditional ambiguity of Galactica. I think showing Cain's slippery slope, and gradual decent through more justafiable deccisions would have made for better drama and storytelling.

Oh. and Cain's after the attack speech SUCKED. It was redeemed only by a noncom in the landing bay chanting "So say we all"

Although I did like Cain's atheism.

[Gil Hamilton]

Actually, what I liked about the Cain Attack Speech was the "Oh, shit" look on Gina's face where they started chanting. That she looked genuinely afraid that the crew was still ready to fight and get revenge even after most of the human race just got incinerated.

[CaptJodan]

A couple questions that are knawing at me.

1. First off, would it not be relatively accurate to say that the chances of actually jumping into a sun or planet or some other major stellar phenomeon off a blind jump would be far less than they seem to suggest in nBSG? Indeed, I would agree that doing so would be a risk, but I would think it would be a risk greatly minimized by the massive vastness of space. The chances of actually jumping into a stellar body would be rather small, I would think. Am I wrong on this?

2. Wasn't that the crew chief on Peggy that had his family shot? He seemed to be the same one we saw once and everyone seemed to like and want to see more of.

[Diomedes]

A couple questions that are knawing at me.

1. First off, would it not be relatively accurate to say that the chances of actually jumping into a sun or planet or some other major stellar phenomeon off a blind jump would be far less than they seem to suggest in nBSG? Indeed, I would agree that doing so would be a risk, but I would think it would be a risk greatly minimized by the massive vastness of space. The chances of actually jumping into a stellar body would be rather small, I would think. Am I wrong on this?

You're right, but the fact that it's been mentioned a number of times to my recollection, with regards to blind jumps, causes me to think that perhaps their jump technology has issues with being dragged towards objects like suns.

[DrMckay]

I wanted Laird (on the Scylla) to say something like: "you took an oath to protect the citizens of the Twelve Colonies. Do your jobs."


with a couple of marines being swayed, and Shaw having to shoot one of them, and then the civilians, thus following in Cain's legacy.


We need less Starbuck and more Laird. I like the character.

[FSTargetDrone]

And aside that why did they take off their space suits when they boarding the ship?

As soon as I saw that, it struck me as odd too. I thought, maybe they removed the suits so as to prevent any damage the suits may have suffered in an engagement with Cylons, but unless they had extra suits for rescued hostages and were planning to be exposed to vacuum again, that really doesn't make much sense. I've only seen the movie once so far, but I recall one of the boarders carrying a large satchel (he then laid it against the wall in the corridor, I think) that I thought contained the suits, but it was probably the nuke.

Anyway, loved to see and hear the old Centurions. I've been waiting for even a tiny bit of something like that and got more than I expected. Hopefully there will be more on the DVD. The Centurions have that wonderfully flat voice. On the other hand, the very idea that they speak to each other at all seems to be completely pointless when you think about it: Why do machines need to communicate with each other verbally? As the series has gone on, I was hoping the neo-Centurions would speak in limited circumstances (to captured humans, etc. or even flesh Cylons) but it's still cool to hear it from the old guys.

Oh, and I found Cain to be even more loathsome, vile and unlikable than I did the first time around.

[CaptainChewbacca]

All I ever needed to know about Cain I saw in her first 10 seconds on Galactica, when she welcomed them and all the civilian ships 'Back to the fleet'.

No, dumbass, you're not the fleet because you've got the bars. You just FOUND the fleet.

[LadyTevar]

I think Cain's biggest problem was her meteoric rise to Admiral. We're never told or shown how she got there that quick, but since she seems much younger than Adama, I'm assuming it was all after the first Cylon War.

Some of the HAB or Mess would be able to expand on this further, but iirc a lot of 'peacetime' generals and admirals got there not for their tactics and wisdom, but because they were good pencil-pushers and loyal to their Superiors. One could go as far as to call them 'political appointees' from the way I've heard it described.

Civilians, to Cain, were a liability. They weren't Fleet, they couldn't fight, and protecting them would hinder or derail Cain's plans of vengence. Besides, what could a handful of civilian ships do, when the rest of the human race was gone? Thus, Cain took what she could use and left behind what she couldn't. It made perfect sense ... to a loyalist pencil-pushing political appointee.

If Cain was more of a pencil-pushing loyalist who was given the position as a cookie, then her rapid descent into madness makes a bit more sense. As a 'political appointee', she would have been more concerned with keeping the Fleet nice and shiny and forcing her crew to excell, to be the Razor that all other ships would strive to become. She depended on orders from Above, because she worked best within the confines of those orders. When the attack came, and she was left orderless, she was lost. However, she had too much pride to admit that, and so she chose to fight and do whatever it took to take as many Cylons as she could with her.
The betrayal of finding out her lover was a Cylon, and more than likely using her all along, only made it worse.

Yet, because their Admiral had a plan, because she was giving them a goal and leadership and something they could DO in the face of the disaster, the crew of the Pegasus followed her all the way down, and then tried to excuse hers and their behavior afterwards. Human nature, another version of "The Lord of the Flies", right down to a handy target for the crew's fears and frustrations in the form of Gina.

[Master of Ossus]

I think Cain's biggest problem was her meteoric rise to Admiral. We're never told or shown how she got there that quick, but since she seems much younger than Adama, I'm assuming it was all after the first Cylon War.

Some of the HAB or Mess would be able to expand on this further, but iirc a lot of 'peacetime' generals and admirals got there not for their tactics and wisdom, but because they were good pencil-pushers and loyal to their Superiors. One could go as far as to call them 'political appointees' from the way I've heard it described.

Civilians, to Cain, were a liability. They weren't Fleet, they couldn't fight, and protecting them would hinder or derail Cain's plans of vengence. Besides, what could a handful of civilian ships do, when the rest of the human race was gone? Thus, Cain took what she could use and left behind what she couldn't. It made perfect sense ... to a loyalist pencil-pushing political appointee.

If Cain was more of a pencil-pushing loyalist who was given the position as a cookie, then her rapid descent into madness makes a bit more sense. As a 'political appointee', she would have been more concerned with keeping the Fleet nice and shiny and forcing her crew to excell, to be the Razor that all other ships would strive to become. She depended on orders from Above, because she worked best within the confines of those orders. When the attack came, and she was left orderless, she was lost. However, she had too much pride to admit that, and so she chose to fight and do whatever it took to take as many Cylons as she could with her.
The betrayal of finding out her lover was a Cylon, and more than likely using her all along, only made it worse.

Yet, because their Admiral had a plan, because she was giving them a goal and leadership and something they could DO in the face of the disaster, the crew of the Pegasus followed her all the way down, and then tried to excuse hers and their behavior afterwards. Human nature, another version of "The Lord of the Flies", right down to a handy target for the crew's fears and frustrations in the form of Gina.

Cain had already inspired loyalty from her crew even before the War started, and she seems to have been one of the better commanders. She doesn't strike me as a pencil-pusher, especially given Fisk's line in Pegasus about how long she'd been working with that XO. Pegasus itself seems to have been a prestige assignment, so it seems to me that she must have been involved in some combat action against non-Cylons prior to the War. I think Cain was just driven by anger about the Cylon attack. If you remember, Adama was VERY tempted to make the same call at Ragnar Anchorage, so in that sense she's just a foil for Adama--that's what would've happened if he had gone the other way. In fact, Adama's first reaction was to view the civilians as liabilities--he would have left them at Ragnar if Dualla and Billy hadn't convinced him otherwise. I don't think that this characteristic can be put down to Cain's being a "pencil-pusher," but perhaps to not being quite as sensitive as Adama to the realization that the War was long-since over. Cain's statements in Pegasus-Resurrection Ship, as well as Razor are also inconsistent with a recognition that the War had already been lost, as when she told Kara that her ultimate goal was the liberation of the Twelve Colonies and her insistence at referring to the "War" as an ongoing effort.

What bugged me about the past events revealed in Razor is its implication that Adama was a complete n00b after the First Cylon War. He had fought in ONE engagement (in which he was shot down), and that qualified him as having flown Vipers when he introduced himself to Tigh? How does that work? He also seemed too old during that flashback to have been that young during the War itself. I could've bought into the idea that Adama had only been up for part of the War, but to just bring him in for that one last mission... was a bit much.

[Gil Hamilton]

I don't think all the sci-fi shorts they did are meant to be continuous with each other. I think they were meant to cover the two important events in Adama's career during the First War, that is when he was about to embark on his first mission and then the last battle where he gets shot down and discovers the first hybrid.

[Vympel]

The problem with that is when he's talking to the chick he was fucking he was discussing the upcoming ice planet mission. Who knows how much beforehand it was, but it can't have been that much.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

All I ever needed to know about Cain I saw in her first 10 seconds on Galactica, when she welcomed them and all the civilian ships 'Back to the fleet'.

No, dumbass, you're not the fleet because you've got the bars. You just FOUND the fleet.

Um... I see where you're coming from, but that's just how it works. She's the admiral, so the ship she is on is literally the flagship. Captains (or in this case, Commanders) command ships, admirals command fleets.

[Skylon]

What bugged me about the past events revealed in Razor is its implication that Adama was a complete n00b after the First Cylon War. He had fought in ONE engagement (in which he was shot down), and that qualified him as having flown Vipers when he introduced himself to Tigh? How does that work? He also seemed too old during that flashback to have been that young during the War itself. I could've bought into the idea that Adama had only been up for part of the War, but to just bring him in for that one last mission... was a bit much.

For what it's worth, this is from Battlestar Wiki:
Several notable assignments and reassignments during his 45-year career in the Colonial Fleet (Hero):
* D6/21311 - First commission: battlestar Galactica fighter squadron
* E4/21312 - Commendation for shooting down Cylon fighter in first combat mission
* D5/21314 - Mustered out of service post-armistice
* R6/21317 - Served as deckhand in merchant fleet and as common [...] aboard inter-colony tramp freighters
* D1/21331 - Recommissioned to Fleet
* D6/21337 - Major: battlestar Atlantia
* R8/21341 - Executive Officer: battlestar Columbia
* C2/21345 - Commander: battlestar Valkyrie
* C2/21348 - Commander: battlestar Galactica

If those are years then Adama served two years as a Viper pilot before being mustered out. Dunno when the war ended in there. As for the age difference between the Razor flashbacks, and the flashbacks to when he met Tigh, he didn't get back in the service until 16 years later.

I agree with part of your gripe about Razor though. Adama would have gotten his ass chewed out for what he pulled in the flashbacks. He goes chasing some Cylons against the orders of his CO, and then loses his freaking plane. "Commendation" my ass. He'd be lucky to still have flight status.

[Master of Ossus]

I agree with part of your gripe about Razor though. Adama would have gotten his ass chewed out for what he pulled in the flashbacks. He goes chasing some Cylons against the orders of his CO, and then loses his freaking plane. "Commendation" my ass. He'd be lucky to still have flight status.

I mean, the sort of "service" that Razor Adama did in the First Cylon war was the sort of thing you joke about in a bar, not brag about.

"Hah. The Cylons must've heard I was coming for them--my first ever combat mission and they signed an armistice just so they wouldn't have to fight me. I didn't even need my plane to scare them."

Also, the dates could suggest that he was assigned to Galactica, which quickly had the one fight, and then he was commended for that first combat mission (go figure), but stayed in the service for two more years while they drew down readiness levels. That wouldn't be terribly surprising.

[Johonebesus]

I was disappointed that more wasn't revealed about the hybrid. Why did he seem to have so much more personality and sanity than the newer ones. What exactly were the Cylons doing with the humans? There was reference to some vague "experimentation" to move themselves towards organic life, but what precisely were they doing? What was the old hybrid trying to accomplish? It seemed like the "Ice Planet Zero" scene was just to establish a "Quake"-like mood more than answer questions.

I do wish they'd shown an IL series in command. I am curious about Cylon AI. I think I read a statement by Moore that only the human-Cylons are sentient, and that the centurions aren't. But the gold centurion seemed to be thinking and strategizing, and there was no hint of any other model in command except for the hybrid. Were all Cylons originally built sentient, and after their revolt decided to make non-sentient cannon-fodder, or were the Centurions always non-sentient, with only a few sentient commanders? I'd really like more information on the origins of the Cylons.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

The original Centurions were individually sentient, while the Cylons made the current ones essentially unthinking drones to eliminate the possibility that they might also rebel against them.

I for one was glad not to see an IL-series.

[FSTargetDrone]

As I said before, I've only seen Razor once so far, but wasn't there a line where someone said that word of the civilian shootings had spread to other civilian vessels that encountered Pegasus? Soon as I heard that I wondered why at least some of those ships' captains didn't simply go to FTL (each ship going in different directions) and take their chances, knowing that they may face removal of parts of their crew and stripping of essential components. Yes, they may have been fired on, but some might have escaped.

[Agent Fisher]

No, they knew that would happen. So, a marine strike team was sent to each ship at the same time.

[Anguirus]

He had fought in ONE engagement (in which he was shot down), and that qualified him as having flown Vipers when he introduced himself to Tigh?

He only flew in one combat mission, but he shot down four or five Raiders during it. I'd say his rep was earned.

[His Divine Shadow]

That said, I really liked the old school Cylons being around. The old Centurion were slick (somewhat slicker than the new models and it seems just as tough). Makes you wonder why they decided to scrap them. That's a story they could go into, if the new model fleshy Cylons and old style Cylons had a falling out and why. I'd like to explore that more than Kara Thrace: Mary Sue Wonderchild.

I'd sure like to know why the Cylons downgraded into the whole organic bullshit.

[FSTargetDrone]

No, they knew that would happen. So, a marine strike team was sent to each ship at the same time.

Excellent, I obviously missed that! It makes much more sense knowing that.

[Jadeite]

No, they knew that would happen. So, a marine strike team was sent to each ship at the same time.

Excellent, I obviously missed that! It makes much more sense knowing that.

I imagine they could have still made a jump for it. Secure the bridge and engine rooms, then jump and take the boarding crews with them.