Red Guards vs Magnaguards

[Straha]

Vader can't use it because he has bionic arms. That doesn't mean he can't have learnt the Sith Lore to use it over the twenty years he's been a sith lord. He can't do, but he can teach.

Have you ever tried teaching something you don't know how to do?

I've actually seen a number of instances where people have helped other people understand languages without actually understanding the language in question in the least. It could be a similar thing with the quasi-mystical state of the force where Vader can help others feel along the dark side to how to do force lightning and guide them to that point without being able to do it himself.

[Havok]

Vader can't use it because he has bionic arms. That doesn't mean he can't have learnt the Sith Lore to use it over the twenty years he's been a sith lord. He can't do, but he can teach.

Have you ever tried teaching something you don't know how to do?

I've actually seen a number of instances where people have helped other people understand languages without actually understanding the language in question in the least. It could be a similar thing with the quasi-mystical state of the force where Vader can help others feel along the dark side to how to do force lightning and guide them to that point without being able to do it himself.

And when he shoots it for the first time with no control? Oops sorry Darth, you're dead? I'm not saying there isn't precedent for this type of EU BS, I'm just saying WHAT THE FUCK!

Also when did it become standard practice that video games HAD to be worked into canon?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Wait a minute.... First, how did Vader train his secret apprentice from an early age? He was like 22 when he became Vader and was only Vader for 20 years? WTF?

Second, how did he teach his secret apprentice how to use Force lightning if he can't even use it himself... and HELLO... "Hey I'm going to teach you the one attack that is SURE to kill me but you know, I trust you, so don't fry my life support systems with it ok?" WTF!!!!

The only rationalization I can find is that somewhere between Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader and Episode IV: A New Hope, Vader learns a way to defend himself from lightning, either with his lightsaber or with his gauntlet or.. something.

Obi-Wan deflected Dooku's lightning without issue using his lightsaber. Why wouldn't Vader be able to do the same?

[Havok]

Wait a minute.... First, how did Vader train his secret apprentice from an early age? He was like 22 when he became Vader and was only Vader for 20 years? WTF?

Second, how did he teach his secret apprentice how to use Force lightning if he can't even use it himself... and HELLO... "Hey I'm going to teach you the one attack that is SURE to kill me but you know, I trust you, so don't fry my life support systems with it ok?" WTF!!!!

The only rationalization I can find is that somewhere between Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader and Episode IV: A New Hope, Vader learns a way to defend himself from lightning, either with his lightsaber or with his gauntlet or.. something.

Obi-Wan deflected Dooku's lightning without issue using his lightsaber. Why wouldn't Vader be able to do the same?

Well that is great if someone who is going to turn on you announces that he is about to be treacherous and gives you a chance to get your lightsaber out. I don't think that is quite how it works. And yeah yeah precog, but that didn't stop Vader from killing Palpatine or Palpatine from killing Plageus.

[Illuminatus Primus]

And if his precog fails and the apprentice is at his back, a la Plagueis or Palpatine, why couldn't he just stab him with a lightsaber or push him into a pit, just like they did? In which case why are you harping about the lightning like its such huge pitfall?

He's fucked anyway if his precog doesn't work. Not to mention I don't buy that he is completely vulnerable to lightning. Sure he can't channel lightning of his own through his prosthetic body, but why couldn't he dissipate incoming lightning. He can dissipate the heat and force of blasters harmlessly.

[Havok]

And if his precog fails and the apprentice is at his back, a la Plagueis or Palpatine, why couldn't he just stab him with a lightsaber or push him into a pit, just like they did? In which case why are you harping about the lightning like its such huge pitfall?

Do random pits abound in Star Wars? I think the EU showed that Vader can run a light saber right through him and still survive, that may be an infinities story though. Beside that, drawing, activating and attacking with a lightsaber, even though it takes very little time, still is going to be much slower than just having lightning shoot out of your fingers.

He's fucked anyway if his precog doesn't work. Not to mention I don't buy that he is completely vulnerable to lightning. Sure he can't channel lightning of his own through his prosthetic body, but why couldn't he dissipate incoming lightning. He can dissipate the heat and force of blasters harmlessly.

I'm with you on that, but it was the Emperor himself that made the comment about the lightning shorting out Vader's suit and killing him. And if he could dissipate it as you say, then why didn't he do so in ROTJ, when the lightning is flying around wildly?

[Anguirus]

The Emperor could presumably punch through Vader's Force defenses. Even though Vader may be unusually vulnerable to Force Lightning, an apprentice of his may not be able to do that.

Vader's energy-redirecting powers are observed in ESB...if an apprentice doesn't totally surprise Vader he will get the energy redirected into his face.

Not to mention that Vader survived a Force Lightning assault at killing strength from the Emperor himself long enough to kill the motherfucker. I'm still not betting on the apprentice here.

[Havok]

The Emperor could presumably punch through Vader's Force defenses. Even though Vader may be unusually vulnerable to Force Lightning, an apprentice of his may not be able to do that.

Vader's energy-redirecting powers are observed in ESB...if an apprentice doesn't totally surprise Vader he will get the energy redirected into his face.

Not to mention that Vader survived a Force Lightning assault at killing strength from the Emperor himself long enough to kill the motherfucker. I'm still not betting on the apprentice here.

A. He still fucking died, no matter how long he lasted.

B. The cybernetic hand that Luke used took a direct blaster hit and was still fully functional. I have no doubt that Vader's limbs were equally durable. Force or not, he probably didn't risk anything blocking Han's blaster fire.

C. I'm not trying to say who wins in a fight. I'm saying it IS FUCKING RETARDED to teach an EVIL apprentice, that based on your OWN experiences will have the desire to kill you and take your place, the BEST way to kill you.

EDIT: D. I wouldn't call the Emperor's lightning in TESB killing strength, as he was frying Luke with it for a good couple of minutes and he was barley even phased by it when it stoped hitting him. It was set on "Toying With" strength. Defrost, if you will.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Do random pits abound in Star Wars? I think the EU showed that Vader can run a light saber right through him and still survive, that may be an infinities story though. Beside that, drawing, activating and attacking with a lightsaber, even though it takes very little time, still is going to be much slower than just having lightning shoot out of your fingers.

If they can draw their blade and deflect blaster bolts, then it can work for lightning. And if what you're saying is true, stab him in the neck.

I'm with you on that, but it was the Emperor himself that made the comment about the lightning shorting out Vader's suit and killing him. And if he could dissipate it as you say, then why didn't he do so in ROTJ, when the lightning is flying around wildly?

When did Vader say that? And in ROTJ there's no way that Palpatine just let Vader toss him; I think Vader put all of his remaining power after the duel and despite his maiming into immobilizing Palpatine with the Force and tossing him into the shaft, permitting the lightning to strike him. Also, one may be able to dissipate bursts of lightning like one-off blaster bolts, but sustained Sith lightning of the Sith Master may be a different story.

[The Original Nex]

EDIT: D. I wouldn't call the Emperor's lightning in TESB killing strength, as he was frying Luke with it for a good couple of minutes and he was barley even phased by it when it stoped hitting him. It was set on "Toying With" strength. Defrost, if you will.

Yes he WAS doing that. But the blast that hit Vader was the lightning generated after the Emperor said "and now young Skywalker, you will die." He wasn't toying with Luke anymore, he was going to kill him with a killing blast. This is the lightning that grievously wounded Vader.

[Ryan Thunder]

Brace yourself for the lastest abomination, the Emperor's Shadow Guard.

Am I the only one who thinks wielding the lightsabre backwards is stupid? It just seems like yet another "ZOMG NINJA COOL!" bit of bullshit...

Of all the things to complain about on those mini's and it's not how shitty they look compared to... oh say, the very first mini range?

Well of course, they're complete a utter low-quality shit compared to what I'm used to (Warhammer).

But I figured the quality (or lack thereof) was obvious.

[NecronLord]

Have you ever tried teaching something you don't know how to do?

'Know how to do' is not the same as 'be able to do.' Vader can know how to summon lightning just fine. He can't do it because he has no hands, not because he wants for the knowledge.

For that matter, you will note that Obi Wan was able to instruct Luke in blocking the remote's bolts without out having seen him do it in that scene.

Never mind all those Holocrons supposedly containing practical information and teachings, despite their makers being long dead, and only able to instruct the living via a hologram interface.

[Anguirus]

He wasn't toying with Luke anymore, he was going to kill him with a killing blast. This is the lightning that grievously wounded Vader.

Thanks for covering that. Yes, that is why it illuminates Vader's bones at this point.

I'm saying it IS FUCKING RETARDED to teach an EVIL apprentice, that based on your OWN experiences will have the desire to kill you and take your place, the BEST way to kill you.

Sith philosophy teaches that this is inevitable and that the strongest and fittest MUST survive. For Vader to succeed the Emperor and then do a poor job training his apprentice because he's scared of him would no doubt inspire said apprentice to study on his own and knock Vader off the perch anyway. These guys can't show their fear if they want to keep living.

B. The cybernetic hand that Luke used took a direct blaster hit and was still fully functional. I have no doubt that Vader's limbs were equally durable. Force or not, he probably didn't risk anything blocking Han's blaster fire.

Uh...so? He still redirected it and avoided any significant damage to the limb or even glove.

[Havok]

He wasn't toying with Luke anymore, he was going to kill him with a killing blast. This is the lightning that grievously wounded Vader.

Thanks for covering that. Yes, that is why it illuminates Vader's bones at this point.

I just added up the amount of time that the Emperor spent frying Luke and Vader. On "Defrost" strength, he hit Luke with 29 seconds of lightning. Then after "You will die" it was 21 straight seconds at supposedly "kill" strength. Vader was hit with 8 seconds at "kill" strength. So Luke took almost a minutes worth of lightning at varying strengths and was dragging Vader all around the Death Star and was piloting, quite coolly I might add, a shuttle down to Endor where he built a funeral pyre then went and partied like an Ewok, and showed ZERO effects of the lightning. Vader, The Chosen One, Mr. Most Midichlorians Ever, got 8 seconds at "kill" strength and died. Now I don't know about you, but that to me says that his life support system was VERY vulnerable to Force Lightning.

I'm saying it IS FUCKING RETARDED to teach an EVIL apprentice, that based on your OWN experiences will have the desire to kill you and take your place, the BEST way to kill you.

Sith philosophy teaches that this is inevitable and that the strongest and fittest MUST survive. For Vader to succeed the Emperor and then do a poor job training his apprentice because he's scared of him would no doubt inspire said apprentice to study on his own and knock Vader off the perch anyway. These guys can't show their fear if they want to keep living.

Well for starters Vader never succeeded the Emperor. And there is a difference between showing fear and being stupid. Again, teaching YOUR apprentice, when you are STILL an apprentice, the best way to kill you so he can get one more step up the ladder BEFORE you can even get there is FUCKING RETARDED. It doesn't matter who's philosophy you go by.

B. The cybernetic hand that Luke used took a direct blaster hit and was still fully functional. I have no doubt that Vader's limbs were equally durable. Force or not, he probably didn't risk anything blocking Han's blaster fire.

Uh...so? He still redirected it and avoided any significant damage to the limb or even glove.

Uh... yeah... I sorta lost my point there. I do that sometimes. Sorry

[Anguirus]

Now I don't know about you, but that to me says that his life support system was VERY vulnerable to Force Lightning.

You might have a point if his life support actually failed. But no evidence actually supports this. His breathing was equally strained from the moment he lost his hand, and Luke objects to taking his (still-functioning) mask off. Vader notes that he's dying anyway...because the lightning (full-force, Sith Lord stuff) did him a fatal injury. Despite the lightning doing that much damage to Vader's body, his breathing apparatus kept ticking.

A Sith Apprentice trying to kill Vader just because he's got lightning will be a case of epic fail. He can always get any damage to his equipment repaired once he obliterates the guy with TK.

Just because 1) Vader can't learn lightning and 2) Days after the Mustafar incident, Vader and Palpatine agree that Palpatine can instantly fry his life support equipment with lightning, doesn't mean that 3) any schmuck with lightning stands a hope in hell of engaging Vader.

Then after "You will die" it was 21 straight seconds at supposedly "kill" strength. Vader was hit with 8 seconds at "kill" strength.

Did you wonder why Luke's bones didn't glow?

It's because he's only just bringing the lightning up to Kill Mode (TM) when Vader grabs him. Truce at Bakura touches on this, and also on the fact that Luke actually required medical treatment from the Alliance not to eventually drop dead even from the stuff he was getting.

Well for starters Vader never succeeded the Emperor.

He planned to.

And there is a difference between showing fear and being stupid. Again, teaching YOUR apprentice, when you are STILL an apprentice, the best way to kill you so he can get one more step up the ladder BEFORE you can even get there is FUCKING RETARDED. It doesn't matter who's philosophy you go by.

Yes, it does. Training a weak apprentice is the antithesis of Sith philosophy that only the strong deserve to survive. Vader has nothing to lose and everything to gain by making his apprentice, who is a secret weapon against the Emperor Palpatine, as strong as possible, because 1) the apprentice is still no real threat to him just because he's got Force lightning, 2) the apprentice will wind up in the #2 slot no matter what, so he has no motivation to side with the Emperor (who might just kill him outright for all he knows) and/or betray Vader...unless he sees Vader as weak, in which case Sith philosophy paints a big red UNWORTHY targeting reticule on him.

Force lightning will likely aid the apprentice in his missions and possibly aid him in an ultimate confrontation with the Emperor himself. Vader would be a fool not to teach it to him, or allow him to learn it on his own. Frankly, he probably can't stop the student from learning it on his own, and attempting to stop him makes him look weak.

[Havok]

Now I don't know about you, but that to me says that his life support system was VERY vulnerable to Force Lightning.

You might have a point if his life support actually failed. But no evidence actually supports this. His breathing was equally strained from the moment he lost his hand, and Luke objects to taking his (still-functioning) mask off. Vader notes that he's dying anyway...because the lightning (full-force, Sith Lord stuff) did him a fatal injury. Despite the lightning doing that much damage to Vader's body, his breathing apparatus kept ticking.

The evidence is that he died. Just because the breathing apparatus was still functioning doesn't men the rest of it was. All those pretty buttons to call his mommy to come pick him up aren't just to keep his scuba gear working. Regardless of it being fatal injury to his organic parts or his cybernetic parts, 8 seconds of lightning killed him. I prefer to believe it was life support failure. Otherwise Vader is just more of a pussy and he has been pussified enough.

A Sith Apprentice trying to kill Vader just because he's got lightning will be a case of epic fail. He can always get any damage to his equipment repaired once he obliterates the guy with TK.

Nope. Not anymore anyway. Apparently Death Star has Vader whining about how his suit and armor suck and he knows he could get a better body but he wouldn't last long enough to survive the switch without what he already is using. So now an undefended lightning attack is a pretty fatal blow, as we SAW in ROTJ.

Just because 1) Vader can't learn lightning and 2) Days after the Mustafar incident, Vader and Palpatine agree that Palpatine can instantly fry his life support equipment with lightning, doesn't mean that 3) any schmuck with lightning stands a hope in hell of engaging Vader.

Ok, well per you and Sith Philosophy, Vader wouldn't train just "any schmuck" to use Force Lightning would he? So it's safe to say that the Apprentice is fairly competent and if he knows how to use the lightning he is gonna do it right.

Then after "You will die" it was 21 straight seconds at supposedly "kill" strength. Vader was hit with 8 seconds at "kill" strength.

Did you wonder why Luke's bones didn't glow?

It's because he's only just bringing the lightning up to Kill Mode (TM) when Vader grabs him. Truce at Bakura touches on this, and also on the fact that Luke actually required medical treatment from the Alliance not to eventually drop dead even from the stuff he was getting.

Luke bones didn't glow because he doesn't have metal laced all over his skeleton. That also probably contributed to the damage Vader suffered.

And seriously, Palpatine has a volume control on his lightning? Did he crank it up to 11 just for Vader? From what I see on screen and after reading on how they handle the power in the RPG, it isn't about what you can dish out but more of what you can take. Yoda could absorb the shit when prepared. Anakin got blasted by it twice and the second time it killed him, but he and Yoda both had about the same reaction (being knocked out) and recovery times when they were hit with it unprepared. Luke didn't absorb it but he took more than we have seen anyone else take and he wasn't knocked out like Yoda or Anakin.
Self own: Mace took quite a bit actually and his skull did glow so you may have a point... MAYBE.

Well for starters Vader never succeeded the Emperor.

He planned to.

And there is a difference between showing fear and being stupid. Again, teaching YOUR apprentice, when you are STILL an apprentice, the best way to kill you so he can get one more step up the ladder BEFORE you can even get there is FUCKING RETARDED. It doesn't matter who's philosophy you go by.

Yes, it does. Training a weak apprentice is the antithesis of Sith philosophy that only the strong deserve to survive. Vader has nothing to lose and everything to gain by making his apprentice, who is a secret weapon against the Emperor Palpatine, as strong as possible, because 1) the apprentice is still no real threat to him just because he's got Force lightning, 2) the apprentice will wind up in the #2 slot no matter what, so he has no motivation to side with the Emperor (who might just kill him outright for all he knows) and/or betray Vader...unless he sees Vader as weak, in which case Sith philosophy paints a big red UNWORTHY targeting reticule on him.

Force lightning will likely aid the apprentice in his missions and possibly aid him in an ultimate confrontation with the Emperor himself. Vader would be a fool not to teach it to him, or allow him to learn it on his own. Frankly, he probably can't stop the student from learning it on his own, and attempting to stop him makes him look weak.

For one you say that Vader's apprentice would be no threat to him, even with lightning...well then how the fuck could he be an effective secret weapon against Sidious if he isn't even a threat to Vader? Two on one? That would be over pretty quick since Palpatine can obviously just fry Vader just how he did in ROTJ. That leaves a half ass apprentice's apprentice. And according to you he could just keep the volume at 11 and kill him too, even though we have never seen Force Lightning actually kill anyone. Yeah that sounds dumber by the minute.

Hmm... This brings up a side thought... Wonder what is going to happen to The Apprentice, since LFL mashes everything into the canon. He obviously doesn't over throw anyone. They probably won't kill him though for sequels and shit. I hate the EU.

[Aratech]

Addendum:

That all being said I always thought the Royal Guard's helmets looked ridiculous. You'd get better peripheral vision looking down a cardboard tube it would seem.

Unless I'm much mistaken, those aren't real visors. the ROTJ novelzation calls them electronic viewing screens, or something to that effect.

[Anguirus]

Luke bones didn't glow because he doesn't have metal laced all over his skeleton. That also probably contributed to the damage Vader suffered.

Self own: Mace took quite a bit actually and his skull did glow so you may have a point... MAYBE. Wink

Wow, you beat me to it.

Just because the breathing apparatus was still functioning doesn't men the rest of it was.

What does the rest of it do? He was well enough to actually speak to Luke unaided.

Apparently Death Star has Vader whining about how his suit and armor suck and he knows he could get a better body but he wouldn't last long enough to survive the switch without what he already is using.

I find this odd, but very well. It still doesn't imply that he can't repir non-critical damage to his suit.

Ok, well per you and Sith Philosophy, Vader wouldn't train just "any schmuck" to use Force Lightning would he? So it's safe to say that the Apprentice is fairly competent and if he knows how to use the lightning he is gonna do it right.

"Fairly competent" does not equal an ability to successfully engage Vader.

well then how the fuck could he be an effective secret weapon against Sidious if he isn't even a threat to Vader? Two on one?

Yes. This was, after all, basically was Vader was planning to do with Luke.

That would be over pretty quick since Palpatine can obviously just fry Vader just how he did in ROTJ.

If he gets the chance. Sidious gets stronger but Vader almost certainly gets stronger after Dark Lord as well.

And according to you he could just keep the volume at 11 and kill him too, even though we have never seen Force Lightning actually kill anyone.

"Weak" Force lightning nearly killed Luke, and "strong" bone-glowing lightning killed Vader and almost certainly would have killed Mace. Sure it would have killed the apprentice...but hey, maybe Vader uses his energy-redirection ability to distract Palpatine while Sith Kid shanks him. Quite likely Vader didn't even have a plan yet, but he wanted his ace in the hole. He's got to start somewhere, and not with a gimped apprentice.

[Darth Massacrus]

This is interesting:

Apparently, several units of Royal Guardsmen were organized into fighter wings, and even given specialized 'Royal Guard TIE Interceptors'. It's so amusing to read that they 'rival even Rogue Squadron as one of the most effective fighter wings in the galaxy' and that 'their true advantage lies in that their pilots’ own skills are sometimes enhanced by the Force abilities of the Emperor himself'. Not that this is a very good EU idea, but it makes me wonder how many other times the Emperor used the Force to enhance the Guards' combat skills....

http://www.rebelscum.com/SWTS07tieinterceptor.asp

wookiepedia link:
ttp://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Emperor%27s_Royal_Guard_TIE/In_starfighter

[Lancer]

Just so you know, you botched the second link. It's missing the 'h' in "http://"

Here is the correct link.

[Ritterin Sophia]

This is interesting:

Apparently, several units of Royal Guardsmen were organized into fighter wings, and even given specialized 'Royal Guard TIE Interceptors'. It's so amusing to read that they 'rival even Rogue Squadron as one of the most effective fighter wings in the galaxy' and that 'their true advantage lies in that their pilots’ own skills are sometimes enhanced by the Force abilities of the Emperor himself'. Not that this is a very good EU idea, but it makes me wonder how many other times the Emperor used the Force to enhance the Guards' combat skills....

http://www.rebelscum.com/SWTS07tieinterceptor.asp

wookiepedia link:
ttp://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Emperor%27s_Royal_Guard_TIE/In_starfighter

Just FYI, that's not a new power, the Emperor's Hands also benefitted from this power.

[Darth Massacrus]

Just FYI, that's not a new power, the Emperor's Hands also benefitted from this power.

Thats true. I do wonder how much of an edge this could give the Royal Guards against droids, even ones as advanced as the Magna Guards (especially if Palps threw some Battle Meditation into the mix)...

[Sidewinder]

Whether or not a Royal Guardsman can defeat a Magnaguard depends on who the Guardsman is. Carnor Jax might have a chance because he has Force powers, and Obi-Wan demonstrated that the Force > droids. Then again, Jax got his ass kicked by someone who didn't have Force powers...

As for the training a Royal Guardsman receives... In 'Crimson Empire II', Kir Kanos intentionally fucks up a blaster rifle so it can serve as a substitute for a campfire. Bear in mind, Kanos was in a fucking jungle, being pursued by people who want to claim the bounty on his head, and maybe some jungle predators, so it would've been a better idea to leave the rifle intact so it's useful as a long-range weapon instead of fucking it up so it's useless as a long-range weapon but useful for keeping his hands warm. Kanos claimed he was trained to use a blaster like that in survival training, giving me doubts on the sanity and/or competence of those responsible for the Guardsmen's training.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Whether or not a Royal Guardsman can defeat a Magnaguard depends on who the Guardsman is. Carnor Jax might have a chance because he has Force powers, and Obi-Wan demonstrated that the Force > droids. Then again, Jax got his ass kicked by someone who didn't have Force powers...

Not exactly, there's some controversy over whether or not Kir Kanos is a latent force user.

The Dark Side Source Book states that all force-sensitive guardsmen go to Yinchorr for special training, this is where Jax and Kanos trained. He can deflect blaster bolts with his vibrostaff. He predicted a TIE/ln would crash into one of it's allies. One panel of Crimson Empire shows him pulling his vibrostaff into his hands like a Jedi could (could be the same as Jango's magnets, but I doubt it). Also, Carnor alludes that Kir Kanos is blinded to his 'true potential'. The Nightsaber RP adventure contained stats which made him a force user. Finally the unmasking of Jax was supposed to show they were from the same Prime Clone, according the authors, who worked under the idea that Royal Guard were all clones (we know this to be untrue now and that only 40% of Stormtroopers are clones, which the Guards are recruited from).

Despite Jax saying he has a father, there's still the possibility they're both GeNode clones and frankly, most of the evidence alludes that this is true.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Schatten covered it; except for the former? You'd rather probably freeze to death then possibly get shot?

Kir Kanos is a Force user and probably a GeNode of the same line as Jax.