S. R. Hadden on God

[Patrick Degan]

Leafing through my copy of Carl Sagan's SF novel Contact, I came across a particular passage in which industrialist S. R. Hadden, while talking with Ellie Arroway, has this to say about the idea of God creating and running the universe:


"You see, the religious people —most of them— really think this planet is an experiment. That's what their beliefs come down to. Some god or other is always fixing and poking, messing around with tradesmen's wives, giving tablets on mountains, commanding you to mutilate your children, telling people what words they can say and what words they can't say, making people feel guilty about enjoying themselves, and like that. Why can't the gods leave well enough alone? All this intervention speaks of incompetence. If God didn't want Lot's wife to look back, why didn't he make her obedient, so she'd do what her huband told her? Or if he hadn't made Lot such a shithead, maybe she would have listened to him more. If God is omnipotent and omnicient, why didn't he start the universe out in the first place so it would come out the way he wants? Why's he constantly repairing and complaining? No, there's one thing the Bible makes clear: The biblical God is a sloppy manufacturer. He's not good at design, he's not good at execution. He'd be out of business if there was any competition."

—Contact; pg. 285



That bit didn't make it into the movie. But I could well imagine John Hurt delivering that whole oration so smoothly.

And it would certainly have altered the bent of the film, wouldn't it?

[Frank Hipper]

There's a whole hell of a lot that didn't make to the film.

[Lagmonster]

I actually loathed contact. It wasn't science fiction as much as a religious movie. 99% of the issues dealt with 'faith' and God. The 'aliens' bit in the movie often feels like a backdrop issue in which to place the meaning of God in their new reality of not being alone in the cosmos.

I think what bothers me most is that almost no people that I have talked to can see the movie's issue (perhaps not the book, haven't read it) is with faith and religion over first contact.

[Stormbringer]

I actually loathed contact. It wasn't science fiction as much as a religious movie. 99% of the issues dealt with 'faith' and God. The 'aliens' bit in the movie often feels like a backdrop issue in which to place the meaning of God in their new reality of not being alone in the cosmos.

The movie didn't do the book justice. It turned a serious contemplation on religion and faith into a warm & fuzzy-fest for religion. That wasn't Sagan's attempt and I doubt he'd approve. The book was meant to seriously consider the issue honestly.

I think what bothers me most is that almost no people that I have talked to can see the movie's issue (perhaps not the book, haven't read it) is with faith and religion over first contact.

Of course. It pissed me off to no end that people can be that dumb. A number of had a serious rant-fest when Rocketgirl on SB.com stated spouting crap about there not being an alien-aliens in the movie.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I liked the film, but I think I'll get the book one day since the books are always better.

John Hurt as Hadden was cool though.

"First rule of government spending; why have one when you can have two for twice the price."

[kheegster]

Leafing through my copy of Carl Sagan's SF novel Contact, I came across a particular passage in which industrialist S. R. Hadden, while talking with Ellie Arroway, has this to say about the idea of God creating and running the universe:


"You see, the religious people —most of them— really think this planet is an experiment. That's what their beliefs come down to. Some god or other is always fixing and poking, messing around with tradesmen's wives, giving tablets on mountains, commanding you to mutilate your children, telling people what words they can say and what words they can't say, making people feel guilty about enjoying themselves, and like that. Why can't the gods leave well enough alone? All this intervention speaks of incompetence. If God didn't want Lot's wife to look back, why didn't he make her obedient, so she'd do what her huband told her? Or if he hadn't made Lot such a shithead, maybe she would have listened to him more. If God is omnipotent and omnicient, why didn't he start the universe out in the first place so it would come out the way he wants? Why's he constantly repairing and complaining? No, there's one thing the Bible makes clear: The biblical God is a sloppy manufacturer. He's not good at design, he's not good at execution. He'd be out of business if there was any competition."

—Contact; pg. 285



That bit didn't make it into the movie. But I could well imagine John Hurt delivering that whole oration so smoothly.

And it would certainly have altered the bent of the film, wouldn't it?

I think it would be more accurate to say that quote is by Sagan, not just since he wrote the novel (obviously...), but also because it's something he himself wants to say. He has pretty much watered down his views on religion in his science books to appeal to a wider audience.

Edit: Stupid phrasing mistakes

[Stormbringer]

I liked the film, but I think I'll get the book one day since the books are always better.

John Hurt as Hadden was cool though.

"First rule of government spending; why have one when you can have two for twice the price."

Isn't that "First rule of government spending; why have one when you can have two for three times the price."?

[Lagmonster]

"First rule of government spending; why have one when you can have two for twice the price."

That was just odd. I had a teensy problem with the "of COURSE we can replicate bizarre stargate technology by looking at blueprints" thing people had in that movie. You'd think we'd all become the aliens from Galaxy Quest.

[Stormbringer]

"First rule of government spending; why have one when you can have two for twice the price."

That was just odd. I had a teensy problem with the "of COURSE we can replicate bizarre stargate technology by looking at blueprints" thing people had in that movie. You'd think we'd all become the aliens from Galaxy Quest.

Well, if it's supposed to be some sort of contact devise of course they'd make sure a civilzation of our development level could build it. What would be the point if you couldn't build it until you already could have on your own?

To be fair the book makes it more difficult and that the aliens do a lot more of the work on their end. It's more a movie brain bug than the book.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I liked the film, but I think I'll get the book one day since the books are always better.

John Hurt as Hadden was cool though.

"First rule of government spending; why have one when you can have two for twice the price."

Isn't that "First rule of government spending; why have one when you can have two for three times the price."?

That's how I recall it, but I haven't seen the film in a year so I probably wrong.

EDIT: S.R. Hadden: First rule in government spending: why build one when you can have two at twice the price?

From IMDb.com.

[Stormbringer]

I liked the film, but I think I'll get the book one day since the books are always better.

John Hurt as Hadden was cool though.

"First rule of government spending; why have one when you can have two for twice the price."

Isn't that "First rule of government spending; why have one when you can have two for three times the price."?

That's how I recall it, but I haven't seen the film in a year so I probably wrong.

EDIT: S.R. Hadden: First rule in government spending: why build one when you can have two at twice the price?

From IMDb.com.

I'm remembering it from the book not the movie.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Isn't that "First rule of government spending; why have one when you can have two for three times the price."?

That's how I recall it, but I haven't seen the film in a year so I probably wrong.

EDIT: S.R. Hadden: First rule in government spending: why build one when you can have two at twice the price?

From IMDb.com.

I'm remembering it from the book not the movie.

Then I'm somewhat at a loss in not having read the book.

Ah well, still sounds typical of modern gov'ts anyway. Plus John Hurt rocks.