Post 9/11 World and Harry Potter

[DavidEC]

I didn't quote it because I thought it too similar to existing ones. I've re-read it and shall reply.

I'm not in the comic scene so I can't comment on that, sorry. As for the redneck point, is this not more political? I'm operating from a different definition of culture and art, which is probably erroneous but still has a certain logic applicable to my posts. I'm talking about culture and art as in films, books, games, music, graphics (drawings, paintings, etc) and so on, not necessarily political opinions. If you're referring to any redneck retard instances in which they do actually say that in their culture/art (per my strange definition), then I must say that 9/11's impact obviously isn't total and the hatred of these redneck retards is too strong to be changed by it.

Even if we do bring political opinions (e.g. from radio or talkshows) into the rubric of culture/art, my point still stands.

9/11 was never going to cure redneck hypocrisy over NY liberals or their targets of hatred in general either.

[Adrian Laguna]

It didn't change mine at all. But I suppose that if you had some absurd, completely bullshit Candy-Coated Worldview before it happened, then it might have been a big shock to the system. To be honest, when it happened, I found it tragic but not surprising...

When my roomate woke me up that morning yelling something about "they're bombing us!", I knew (well, strongly suspected) immediately who "they" were.

A middle-schooler could have figured it out. I was in seventh grade and it didn't take more than a few minutes to realize it was simply a suicide bombing, like the ones in Israel, writ large. The only part of my world-view that changed is that I like the whole NYC skyline now.

[SirNitram]

I didn't quote it because I thought it too similar to existing ones. I've re-read it and shall reply.

Gosh, if everyone replies similarly, might it be that it's the main result?

Or perhaps, just perhaps, it's as I anticipated and you snipped it because you're a self-righteous retard.

I'm not in the comic scene so I can't comment on that, sorry. As for the redneck point, is this not more political? I'm operating from a different definition of culture and art, which is probably erroneous but still has a certain logic applicable to my posts. I'm talking about culture and art as in films, books, games, music, graphics (drawings, paintings, etc) and so on, not necessarily political opinions. If you're referring to any redneck retard instances in which they do actually say that in their culture/art (per my strange definition), then I must say that 9/11's impact obviously isn't total and the hatred of these redneck retards is too strong to be changed by it.

Even if we do bring political opinions (e.g. from radio or talkshows) into the rubric of culture/art, my point still stands.

9/11 was never going to cure redneck hypocrisy over NY liberals or their targets of hatred in general either.

'DUR HUR. IT POLIKTICKAL!' No shit, sherlock. What do you think culture is? Some detached glowy-floaty-shit? Politics are a part of it all, and your refusal to admit that demonstrates your ill-equipped nature to even pretend to discuss this like an adult.

Your 'point' doesn't stand. It brought out the masks on the conservatives of the world, and threw them into a fire. Before 9/11, they weren't nearly so open about contempt for Rule Of Law and similar concepts. Now, they just throw up 'NATIONAL SECURITY ZOMG'. Hell, look at Repoman, who demonstrates this blatantly: You're either agreeing with me or you want the terrorists to win.

IT didn't create either, it would never cure either. But it sure as fuck unmasked the modern conservatism movement rather well. If this is too 'political', then I suggest you find a forum that doesn't have the fucking word 'POLITICS' in it, you flaming retard.

[DavidEC]

Gosh, if everyone replies similarly, might it be that it's the main result?

Or perhaps, just perhaps, it's as I anticipated and you snipped it because you're a self-righteous retard.

No, I meant that it was too similar to other points of yours. I see now that it is different.

PS Do you directly even quote my posts at all?

'DUR HUR. IT POLIKTICKAL!' No shit, sherlock. What do you think culture is? Some detached glowy-floaty-shit? Politics are a part of it all, and your refusal to admit that demonstrates your ill-equipped nature to even pretend to discuss this like an adult.p/quote]

As I said I was using a different definition of culture and art. Sorry.

Your 'point' doesn't stand. It brought out the masks on the conservatives of the world, and threw them into a fire. Before 9/11, they weren't nearly so open about contempt for Rule Of Law and similar concepts. Now, they just throw up 'NATIONAL SECURITY ZOMG'. Hell, look at Repoman, who demonstrates this blatantly: You're either agreeing with me or you want the terrorists to win.

I'm not sure what my point was because I'm not sure what your original point was.

IT didn't create either, it would never cure either. But it sure as fuck unmasked the modern conservatism movement rather well. If this is too 'political', then I suggest you find a forum that doesn't have the fucking word 'POLITICS' in it, you flaming retard.

Are you going to call the OP a flaming retard for asking questions about the themes of Harry Potter in a News and Politics thread? No, I never said I was addressing explicitly political issues and if you want me to engage you on that I can't, because I agree with you. It is obviously exploited as the latest excuse to push their agenda.

In this sense, it's still supporting my original point about the intensity of the imagery of 9/11. Its widely-disseminated novelty and spectacle made it vivid to many people and it's proved the ideal propaganda material for fascist shit.

[SirNitram]

Gosh, if everyone replies similarly, might it be that it's the main result?

Or perhaps, just perhaps, it's as I anticipated and you snipped it because you're a self-righteous retard.

No, I meant that it was too similar to other points of yours. I see now that it is different.

So you're just a flaming, illiterate moron.

PS Do you directly even quote my posts at all?

Since, unlike you, I actually respond to on-topic points, no, I don't. Is this going to be some sad, pathetic attempt at equivocation?

'DUR HUR. IT POLIKTICKAL!' No shit, sherlock. What do you think culture is? Some detached glowy-floaty-shit? Politics are a part of it all, and your refusal to admit that demonstrates your ill-equipped nature to even pretend to discuss this like an adult.

As I said I was using a different definition of culture and art. Sorry.

So it's one completely divorced from reality? Because culture and politics have been intertwined for centuries.

Your 'point' doesn't stand. It brought out the masks on the conservatives of the world, and threw them into a fire. Before 9/11, they weren't nearly so open about contempt for Rule Of Law and similar concepts. Now, they just throw up 'NATIONAL SECURITY ZOMG'. Hell, look at Repoman, who demonstrates this blatantly: You're either agreeing with me or you want the terrorists to win.

I'm not sure what my point was because I'm not sure what your original point was.

That's amusing. You claim your point stands, but now you can't figure out what your point was? And because you're too dumb to figure out what I wrote? Oh, the amusement.

IT didn't create either, it would never cure either. But it sure as fuck unmasked the modern conservatism movement rather well. If this is too 'political', then I suggest you find a forum that doesn't have the fucking word 'POLITICS' in it, you flaming retard.

Are you going to call the OP a flaming retard for asking questions about the themes of Harry Potter in a News and Politics thread? No, I never said I was addressing explicitly political issues and if you want me to engage you on that I can't, because I agree with you. It is obviously exploited as the latest excuse to push their agenda.

No, because Stravo was aware that politics would be an integral part of it. You, on the other hand, live in fucking Candyland or something, because it's not reality. Reality has this intersection of poitics and culture, and almost always has.

In this sense, it's still supporting my original point about the intensity of the imagery of 9/11. Its widely-disseminated novelty and spectacle made it vivid to many people and it's proved the ideal propaganda material for fascist shit.

And here you figure out what your point was! Magical. Absolutely magical. You're a two-faced lying git, you know that? You can't keep your story straight through a whole post! There's nothing particularly 'Intense' about the imagery, compared to, say, the imagery of a nail-bomb's aftermath in Ireland, or images of Fallujah, or images of the ruins of New Orleans.

[Ubiquitous]

There's nothing particularly 'Intense' about the imagery, compared to, say, the imagery of a nail-bomb's aftermath in Ireland, or images of Fallujah, or images of the ruins of New Orleans.

What are you smoking? People jumping to their deaths from burning windows? Huge clouds of dust engulfing all in its path? Passenger jets full of people crashing into towers full of people and exploding on live TV less intense than pictures of the aftermath of NO?

Erm, no Nitram. You mistake intensity for scale. The scene of the jet impacting on the building and the towers falling down are two of the most intense moments captured on camera in the modern era.

[SirNitram]

There's nothing particularly 'Intense' about the imagery, compared to, say, the imagery of a nail-bomb's aftermath in Ireland, or images of Fallujah, or images of the ruins of New Orleans.

What are you smoking? People jumping to their deaths from burning windows? Huge clouds of dust engulfing all in its path? Passenger jets full of people crashing into towers full of people and exploding on live TV less intense than pictures of the aftermath of NO?

Erm, no Nitram. You mistake intensity for scale. The scene of the jet impacting on the building and the towers falling down are two of the most intense moments captured on camera in the modern era.

No, I didn't mention scale. I simply don't see how explosions are any more 'intense' than corpses on the street of a city that's supposed to be first world.

[DavidEC]

So you're just a flaming, illiterate moron.

I concede this.

Since, unlike you, I actually respond to on-topic points, no, I don't. Is this going to be some sad, pathetic attempt at equivocation?

I respond to all

So it's one completely divorced from reality? Because culture and politics have been intertwined for centuries.

Good point.

That's amusing. You claim your point stands, but now you can't figure out what your point was? And because you're too dumb to figure out what I wrote? Oh, the amusement.

I claim my original point stands, yes. That particular thread of argument, no I couldn't understand because I never said anything about the exploitation of 9/11 but rather its cultural impact.

No, because Stravo was aware that politics would be an integral part of it. You, on the other hand, live in fucking Candyland or something, because it's not reality. Reality has this intersection of poitics and culture, and almost always has.

True, my distinction was somewhat arbitrary and probably included elements of fiction vs non-fictional art, though ironically what rednecks think is fiction anyway.

And here you figure out what your point was!

There can be more than one point in a thread or a person's posts, you know. A point, and THE point, the latter of which I've been more sure about throughout the thread.

Magical. Absolutely magical. You're a two-faced lying git, you know that? You can't keep your story straight through a whole post! There's nothing particularly 'Intense' about the imagery, compared to, say, the imagery of a nail-bomb's aftermath in Ireland, or images of Fallujah, or images of the ruins of New Orleans.

Novelty, concentration, and spectacle. It was new in its method, it was more geographically concentrated unlike those examples so it was more conducive to media condensation, and it was a spectacle because two of some of the largest buildings in the world came down. Unfortunately this imagery was more arresting than the longer, drawn-out suffering seen all over the world. I've said roughly this in one form or another throughout the thread and always said it was my main point.

I agree to a certain extent with New Orleans though. It evoked a similar sense of surreality as 9/11.

[DavidEC]

EDIT for second point: People's points towards concerning an objective analysis of 9/11's impact were outside my posts' remit. Should I have not responded

[SirNitram]

'I respond to all' Never mind the fact you admitted you didn't. God, what a liar. And your 'art' bit is absolutely hysterical. Do you think there's no politics in art? No influence?

[Stravo]

You know, in the balance of things, if you're honest with yourself as an American I would have to say what was coming out of New Orleans was worse than what we saw on 9/11. Why? Because 9/11 was an attack carried out by extremists on the US on innocent civilians. They are our avowed enemies. What else should we expect?

New Orleans on the other hand was an abject failure of all levels of American government in doing its basic duty of protecting and caring for its citizens and you add in a healthy dose of racial overtones and you have a true American tragedy. Maybe not as many people died at once but it was a suffering that stretched on for weeks and is still going on, triggered a diaspora of people and exposed some truly galling inadequacies of our own government.

In New Orleans we truly fucked ourselves. People died because we just didn't get the job done and there was that unmistakable feeling that if this had been white bread middle America town or city things may have gone differently.

It also made you think "These pictures look like they're coming from a third world shit hole --- wait-- it's America."

The enemy on 9/11 wore turbans and hid in caves. The enemy in New Orleans was us.

[SirNitram]

The enemy on 9/11 wore turbans and hid in caves. The enemy in New Orleans was us.

That's really why the emotional intensity of it was so high, yea. We saw it coming. There was warning time. We knew. But it still failed. And there were still bodies in the street, not people, bodies. I can grasp why those who think it was less intense for it's duration of suffering would think so(Whereas the 'THERE WERE EXPLOSIONS' response truly has me appalled), in it's own way, it cranked it up. Day Four: Major City Still Dying Slowly, People Suffering, Callous Comments By Those Comfortable. And it just kept going. Still does, when we hear about how the FEMA trailers were so toxic they wouldn't let inspectors in.. But refugees? Sure, pack 'em in.

[DavidEC]

Concerning the scale and intensity problem; I factor the former into my use of the latter, which is not so much literal as a synonym for 'powerful', 'arresting' and so on - all the words I've used too much, and need to replace.

'I respond to all' Never mind the fact you admitted you didn't. God, what a liar.

Typographical error, sorry. I posted a correction, which itself should have a question mark at the end. I generally respond to all the relevant points - which don't include insults, poetic as they are - and sometimes I miss out a few, for which I've apologised.

And your 'art' bit is absolutely hysterical. Do you think there's no politics in art? No influence?

Obviously there is, but my general track is with the sort of imaginative culture which would be more influenced by unique images like those from 9/11 rather than than the somewhat repetitive images of Iraq fighting we've had over the past 4 years, although

[DavidEC]

EDIT (Sorry) amend last point by removing although and putting: "...in the sense that this imaginative culture - primarily I'm thinking fictional material or that not intended to explicitly describe non-fiction - would be more prone to influence by intense, emotional imagery, as opposed to political culture, which is supposed to be more factual."

[SirNitram]

You keep pretending there's some kind of aloof, detached 'culture' to which you can appeal, but the fact is it doesn't exist. It never did. If you think it exists, you're free to try proving it does, but the fact you never do suggests you realize you're full of shit.

[18-Till-I-Die]

So what exactly are you arguing here (i'm referring to David EC), i mean what is your point, quick and dirty?

Mind you i know jack about the school of sociology or anything like that.

If, i gather anyway, you mean that the cultural impact of 911 exists autonomously from the actual political or military impact (or in english, that the image in our minds is stronger than the actual event itself) then you may indeed have a point.

Though i would still agree with Stravo and Sir Nitram in the sense that, in more tangible ways, Katrina was far more jarring for a lot of people, me for example. While i was stunned at the moment of the event, it didnt drag on in my mind for days on end like Katrina's aftermath. Perhaps because Katrina's effects actually DID drag on.

[DavidEC]

I posted it earlier.

"9/11 has had an unreasonably great impact on Western cultural imagination because of its visually arresting, powerful imagery."

Can you separate the different types of culture? Not entirely, of course but I think Harry Potter should be placed much more to the imaginative side. Not entirely - it's not complete fantasy. But at the same time, as I said earlier, it's not Rowling's PhD thesis on international relations. It is going to rely more on poweful imagery instead of objective data.

Yes, that is a good rephrasing of my point.

Katrina did drag on - in fact, doesn't it still drag on? - and that's part of the reason why I say 9/11 was more concentrated.

Surprisingly 'Katrina' yields more hits than '9/11' on Google News (25,000 vs 19,000) as does Yahoo (12,000 vs 10,000) but I'm not sure how to make it more objective and try to cover the possible different names for the events (e.g. WTC, Sept. 11, New Orleans, etc)

[B5B7]

We live in a post 19th century age [that is not a misprint].

It is unreasonable. That's what I've been saying concerning arresting visual imagery.

Do you think it's produced new shifts in culture? Do you think 'Sleeper Cell' and CoD4 and BF2 and 'Britz' and so on and so forth were as likely to be made pre as post?

Conversely, do you think 'Sum of All Fears' and 'Crimson Tide' are as culturally relevant today?

So visual imagery is required for an event to have an impact? Tell that to any assault victim. If it's not on film it wasn't real.
I suppose those are videogames you have listed - I doubt some minor event would have much impact on their existence or nature.
If you are referring to the movie 'Crimson Tide' - it was about two men in conflict over whether to nuke a city - seems pretty relevent still. Also the Cold War important to lots of people, and even talk of a new Cold War with Russia.

Katrina did drag on - in fact, doesn't it still drag on? - and that's part of the reason why I say 9/11 was more concentrated.

Concentrated - 9/11 has dragged on for 7 years. In both cases the actual event was fairly quick [unless one includes the bungling afteractions by Bush and co in relation to Katrina, then justifiably it could be considered to have 'dragged on'].

[FSTargetDrone]

That's really why the emotional intensity of it was so high, yea. We saw it coming. There was warning time. We knew. But it still failed.

Which is why it was criminal, yes, criminal that no one in power was held accountable. Sure, no one could say for sure how bad it might be beforehand (in terms of people dying, never mind any property damage, etc.), but the idea that well over 1600 people were lost, needlessly, and no one in charge was even out of a job, right? Remember those school buses that sat idle for lack of drivers, drivers! They sat there unused and useless until they were flooded in their parking lots

New York was shocking, jarring, frightening. New Orleans was revolting, nauseating, disgusting. Each had its own separate power to horrify, but New Orleans, so many were lost that could have been saved simply to inaction and incompetence. It's criminal.

[Flagg]

My reaction was anger, more than anything else. I was pissed off at the bastards that did it and at the authorities who failed to stop it. I think it definitely changed my attitude towards the Middle East, though. It really struck home that you can't go around pissing on other peoples lawns and then be shocked when you get punched in the face.

[SirNitram]

New York was shocking, jarring, frightening. New Orleans was revolting, nauseating, disgusting. Each had its own separate power to horrify, but New Orleans, so many were lost that could have been saved simply to inaction and incompetence. It's criminal.

Speaking for myself, I was plenty shocked and jarred by the idea that New Orleans of all places looked like a Third World ruin, complete with rotting corpses.

[FSTargetDrone]

Speaking for myself, I was plenty shocked and jarred by the idea that New Orleans of all places looked like a Third World ruin, complete with rotting corpses.

Oh, of course. They were still finding bodies in the months afterward:

IDENTIFYING KATRINA'S VICTIMS

December 28, 2005

A reporter from the New Orleans Times-Picayune discusses the slow and ongoing process of identifying the victims of Hurricane Katrina, four months after the storm hit the Gulf Coast.

GWEN IFILL: The images are impossible to forget: Bodies of those who perished in Hurricane Katrina, floating aimlessly in the fetid Louisiana floodwaters, abandoned to horizon. Rescue and recovery teams found many more behind closed doors, in houses, hospitals, and nursing homes, marking buildings to indicate the locations of the dead and the injured.

Four months after the storm decimated much of the city, nearly 1100 bodies have been recovered, nearly half of the dead were white, half were black, and most of them were elderly.

And while the search for bodies in Louisiana was officially called off on Oct. 3, emergency workers and residents returning to their devastated homes, continued to find corpses. More than 200 bodies have still not been identified, some so badly decomposed it will take DNA testing to determine who they are. Roughly 150 of the bodies identified remain unclaimed. Many more appear still to be missing.

[Flagg]

New York was shocking, jarring, frightening. New Orleans was revolting, nauseating, disgusting. Each had its own separate power to horrify, but New Orleans, so many were lost that could have been saved simply to inaction and incompetence. It's criminal.

Speaking for myself, I was plenty shocked and jarred by the idea that New Orleans of all places looked like a Third World ruin, complete with rotting corpses.

I wasn't. It was a primarily minority city that voted Democrat. I was shocked that the media woke the fuck up for 10 minutes to cover it like it needed to be covered. I don't find it shocking that it's now largely being ignored again.