Youth riots in France

[[R_H]]

We had a big fire last night a few blocks away and there the firefighters were welcomed by stone throwing punks. Some idiots clearly aren't fit to live in a civilized country.

How do the authorities respond to behaviour like that?

Apparently the little rioting shits are accident experts

Nearly 80 French police officers have been injured, six seriously, during a second night of riots by youths in the suburbs of Paris, police unions say.

The police say some officers suffered bullet wounds, while others were hurt by stones, fireworks and petrol bombs thrown at them in Villiers-le-Bel.

The youths said they were avenging the two teenagers killed when their motorcycle hit a police car on Sunday.

A senior union official said the riots had been more intense than in 2005.

The 2005 unrest, sparked by the accidental deaths of two youths, spread from a nearby suburb of Paris to other cities and continued for three weeks, during which more than 10,000 cars were set ablaze and 300 buildings firebombed.

'Fired upon'

The second consecutive night of rioting began early in the evening in Villiers-le-Bel, the northern suburb that saw most of the violence on Sunday.

Police fired tear gas and rubber bullets to keep at bay gangs of youths who were attacking them with stones, fireworks and petrol bombs. More than 70 vehicles and buildings, including the municipal library, two schools and several shops, were set on fire.

Violence was also reported in four other towns across the Val d'Oise department.

The national secretary of the Synergie police union, Patrice Ribeiro, said at least 77 officers had been injured in the violence and that several had been wounded by shotgun pellets fired at them.

The French Interior Minister, Michele Alliot-Marie, said six police officers had been injured seriously and that they included those who had been "struck in the face and close to the eyes". Mr Ribeiro said police were facing a situation that was "far worse than that of 2005", which began in the nearby suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois.

"Our colleagues will not allow themselves to be fired upon indefinitely without responding," he told the radio station, RTL.

"They will be placed in situations which will become untenable."

On Sunday, about 30 cars and several buildings, including a police station, were torched in Villiers-le-Bel and neighbouring Arnouville.

Twenty-six police and firefighters were injured and nine people were arrested.

'Organised'

Ms Alliot-Marie said she believed the trouble had been organised and correspondents say the scale of the fury involved suggested the riots might have attracted people from outside the area.

The violence happened despite appeals for calm from the families of the two teenagers of Algerian origin whose deaths sparked the violence on Sunday evening. A state prosecutor has ordered the National Police General Inspectorate (IGPN) - an oversight body - to carry out a detailed inquiry into the circumstances in which the two teenagers - named only as Moushin, 15, and Larami, 16, lost their lives.

Police sources have said that in Sunday's incident, the motorcycle was going at top speed and was not registered for street use, while the two teenagers were not wearing helmets and had been ignoring traffic rules.

The police car was on a routine patrol and the teenagers were not being chased by police at the time, the officials added. But local youths have said the police car's stoved-in bonnet suggests it rammed the teenagers.

The state prosecutor who ordered the investigation, Marie-Therese de Givry, told LCI television that the teenagers had turned into the path of the police car. She said the officers immediately called emergency services to the scene.

Two witnesses are said to have confirmed this, but the teenagers' relatives and other local residents say the police did nothing to help the dying teenagers.

President Sarkozy said he wanted "everyone to calm down and let the justice system decide who was responsible."

Mr Sarkozy was heavily criticised two years ago after he called for crime-ridden neighbourhoods to be "cleaned with a power hose" and described violent elements as "gangrene" and "rabble".

Why doesn't the police start using lethal weapons when they're being attacked by firearms and incendiary devices? What are sentences like for arrested rioters taking part in senseless shit like this?[/quote]

[Norseman]

Link

VILLIERS-LE-BEL, France - Rampaging youths rioted for a second night in Paris' suburbs, firing at officers and ramming burning cars into buildings. At least 77 officers were injured, a senior police union official said Tuesday.

The overnight violence was more intense than during three weeks of rioting in 2005, said the official, Patrice Ribeiro. He said that "genuine urban guerillas with conventional weapons and hunting weapons" were among the rioters.

In short the rioters have now graduated to using firearms, which is definately a new development.

[K. A. Pital]

Social alienation + arms = armed riot.

Usually though it doesn't get this bad until people are in such conditions that food becomes scarce.

[Norseman]

Why aren't the police shooting back? Let me ask you a different question: What would happen if the police did shoot back?

First most of these rioters are Muslims, primarily of a non-European origin. So you got an ethnic / religious issue to worry about as well. Who knows what they'd do if the police opened fire? Would there be more riots all over France? Maybe... maybe not... but you can't be sure can you?

Mind you they wouldn't open fire even if these were white protestors; or rather they'd be unlikely to do so. The simple reason is that the French authorities don't want a blood bath, and if the police open fire people will die. Some of them will be innocent. E.g. you will hit Jean who was crossing the street to buy milk for his two year old daughter. Even if you kill the responsible parties you still have to prove they were responsible, not so easy if their friends strip away the rifle. (And the press won't wait for the forensics examination).

So first you have the fact that the rioters (Muslim) could start acting even worse, and escalate the violence even further. Second there's the fact that no matter who the rioters are it's political suicide for the police to open fire on any rioters, the press would tear you to pieces!

If I were a French police chief I wouldn't order my men to open fire, I'd order them to dress up in body armour, and to withdraw if necessary. After all cars are insured, and no one will pay much attention to the rapes and murders committed by the rioters. So why should I risk the lives of my men, and my own career, to open fire?

In fact if I were a French police chief I would only open fire if, and when, the President of the Republic (or some other high mucketimuck) explicitly and formally, with a paper trail, ordered me to do so. Not authorised me to do so, not permitted it "if the circumstances are right", but a positive order.

So until such an order is issued the logical way to treat this is try to contain the riots, bolster the insurance companies, and then see about bribing anyone who can make the riots stop for now.

Should the order be given the fall out will be huge, and things will have to have gotten very bad before they'd even consider issuing such an order. Given traditional French restraint there'd also be a lot of bloodshed by then, but no western state can kill all of the troublemakers...

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I think the French police are wary of fanning the violence with more violence, going by past history.

[Adrian Laguna]

Maybe using some sort of sleeping gas rather than tear gas would be useful. Problem with those is that someone always fails to react as expected and expires. Also, there probably isn't any in France anyway.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Maybe using some sort of sleeping gas rather than tear gas would be useful. Problem with those is that someone always fails to react as expected and expires. Also, there probably isn't any in France anyway.

Going by what happened during the Russian hostage crisis where they used that stuff, yeah.

Also, going by how liberal Europe is, the very act of using some of these crowd suppression devices might be enough to start up more riots.

[[R_H]]

Maybe using some sort of sleeping gas rather than tear gas would be useful. Problem with those is that someone always fails to react as expected and expires. Also, there probably isn't any in France anyway.

Going by what happened during the Russian hostage crisis where they used that stuff, yeah.

Also, going by how liberal Europe is, the very act of using some of these crowd suppression devices might be enough to start up more riots.

Wasn't that because the unconsious were placed on their backs, and those who vomited choked to death?

It appears that any excuse for a riot will lead to riot, which just involves destroying public and private property and confrontation with the authorities rather than trying to engage in discourse and try to solve the problems.

[Sea Skimmer]

Wasn't that because the unconsious were placed on their backs, and those who vomited choked to death?

Dehydration was a major factor; plus the complete refusal of the Russian military to reveal anything about the nature of the gas until days later, making effective treatment impossible. If the situation had been handled correctly; they could for example have used military hospitals and doctors to preserve secrecy about the gas, then only a handful of elderly people should have died from its effects. Considering the tactical situation, a few deaths would have been more then acceptable.

[Sidewinder]

Somebody introduce the flowers of the French youth to 'Grand Theft Auto', 'Halo', or some other game where they can vent their frustrations on computer-generated images in a computer-generated world. That's got to be a healthier outlet for their anger than rioting in the real world and setting real people's homes, businesses, and cars on fire.

Or do the French find "Burn, Kill, Loot, Rape!" more fun than 'Evercrack'?

[Phantasee]

Somebody introduce the flowers of the French youth to 'Grand Theft Auto', 'Halo', or some other game where they can vent their frustrations on computer-generated images in a computer-generated world. That's got to be a healthier outlet for their anger than rioting in the real world and setting real people's homes, businesses, and cars on fire.

Or do the French find "Burn, Kill, Loot, Rape!" more fun than 'Evercrack'?

If those video games cause kids here to be violent, I wonder what the French do? Did they have online multiplayer before we did? Can we expect similar riots to start now that XBOX Live is a common subscription for our youth?

[TithonusSyndrome]

I wonder where Mr. Tough-Cop Sarkozy is and what he's doing through all of this. I thought for sure he'd be all over something like this, it's exactly the sort of incident he had cultivated his image around being able to resolve.

[VT-16]

I wonder where Mr. Tough-Cop Sarkozy is and what he's doing through all of this.

Coming home from a trip to China, apparently.

and no one will pay much attention to the rapes and murders committed by the rioters.

O.......k. Thanks for going off the deep end, there.

[Siege]

As long as the riots are more or less contained to the banlieues, I doubt any police chief will even care enough about whatever the people there light on fire. That is, police probably will attempt to keep the riots from spreading to more reputable parts of the city, and then stand back and wait until the riots run out of steam.

These riots are, after all, a semi-regular occurrence, and the banlieues are burnt-out hellscapes full of disenfranchised poor people that surprisingly few people in France seem to care about. Color my cynical, but I doubt the chief of police will even bother with more than letting the rioters have their fifteen minutes of yearly fame whilst keeping the damage confined to those areas that are relatively worthless anyway.

[Stark]

Somebody introduce the flowers of the French youth to 'Grand Theft Auto', 'Halo', or some other game where they can vent their frustrations on computer-generated images in a computer-generated world. That's got to be a healthier outlet for their anger than rioting in the real world and setting real people's homes, businesses, and cars on fire.

Or do the French find "Burn, Kill, Loot, Rape!" more fun than 'Evercrack'?

I totally bet France is a violent videogame-free zone. I doubt they've even heard of 'Grand Theft Auto' and wouldn't know what an 'Xbox' even WAS.

[AniThyng]

Somebody introduce the flowers of the French youth to 'Grand Theft Auto', 'Halo', or some other game where they can vent their frustrations on computer-generated images in a computer-generated world. That's got to be a healthier outlet for their anger than rioting in the real world and setting real people's homes, businesses, and cars on fire.

Or do the French find "Burn, Kill, Loot, Rape!" more fun than 'Evercrack'?

Maybe they are looting the XBox's and stealing money to pay for the evercrack as well speak, yeah? I mean seriously, these people are disenfrenchiesed poor, and probably laugh in the face of any faux-macho videogame player.

[CJvR]

How do the authorities respond to behaviour like that?

We shall see if they catch anyone. There have been charges filed by both the Police and FD.

[brianeyci]

Improvised explosives and even firearms are parts of professional riots. The problem is whoever organizes the riots has media sensationalism in mind. So they hire "professional rioters" who come with gas masks and throw molotov cocktails to provoke the police to do exactly what you're suggesting: fire into the crowd. What happens is the riot organizers want to escalate it to the point police are firing and killing civilians, then they can point to it and go, oppression. The idea is try and isolate one police officer and drag him into the crowd, or make the police charge and get pictures of brutal beatings. And the best: actual gunfire.

That the French police didn't respond with lethal force means they are highly disciplined and trained, not that they are pussy for not beating the shit out of hundreds of teens or killing them.

Of course in the case of France, they don't need professional rioters to screw up peaceful protests, since everybody is going around trashing shit and the protest is not "peaceful". But the result is the same: if the police fire into the crowd, it could escalate the violence and cause more deaths. No police officers have died, but if they had opened fire many teens would have died and maybe many more police. If the police had killed more teens, it would've brought every single don't-care-about-my-future-I-am-invincible teenager into mortal combat.

So sorry to spoil your fun gun freaks. Sometimes, violence is not the best response, even to violence.

[TheMuffinKing]

. Sometimes, violence is not the best response, even to violence.

With this I agree. I was under the impression that France has some potent social/economic problems to overcome. Problems that directly relate to these rioters. i guess an obvious answer would be to address these issues... hopefully this would cause a decrease in the rioting.


However, a good beat down is fun to watch on the news now and again.

[Warsie]

Cry me a fucking river. It does NOT give them an excuse to destroy private property and scare the general population just because they have a shitty deal.

Many of them are Arabs and Blacks. Anyone remember France's policies of Imperialism and Colonialism in Africa and the Middle East? When people get marginalized by a society they get pissed off. Like the African-Americans in the US in the 1960s and Rodney King uprising.

Yes there are many natives rioting as well.

[NoXion]

Improvised explosives and even firearms are parts of professional riots. The problem is whoever organizes the riots has media sensationalism in mind. So they hire "professional rioters" who come with gas masks and throw molotov cocktails to provoke the police to do exactly what you're suggesting: fire into the crowd. What happens is the riot organizers want to escalate it to the point police are firing and killing civilians, then they can point to it and go, oppression. The idea is try and isolate one police officer and drag him into the crowd, or make the police charge and get pictures of brutal beatings. And the best: actual gunfire.

Who are these "riot organisers" and "professional rioters"? I've never heard mention of them anywhere else, ever.

[K. A. Pital]

Who are these "riot organisers" and "professional rioters"? I've never heard mention of them anywhere else, ever.

Who do you think coordinates the riots?

Riot leaders could be mafiosi structures, political party operatives or anyone whose interests coincide with the riots, and who has a wide regional network.

Riots rarely spawn uncoordinated in our age, especially on such a massive scale.

[brianeyci]

Who are these "riot organisers" and "professional rioters"? I've never heard mention of them anywhere else, ever.

Organizations like this, hire professional rioters. Also, moving many people to the anti-globalization protests takes money, organization and effort.

In this age of mass media and big money, no movement is truly "grassroots" and if it is it'll probably fail compared to large organized groups. Even the Orange Revolution wasn't entire grassroots and organized by people with brains, power and money. To mobilize the requisite people, you need large banks of computers with personal information, call centers, and footmen. If a group is militant enough, the logical choice is to outsource rioting. You only need to drag one police officer into the mob to start a melee then all hell breaks loose.

The demagogues rile up the untrained masses, and small elite groups try and provoke the police to attack. They don't have military training or anything but they don't really need it: all they need is to fade in and out of the crowd, attack, and hope to kill or drag a police officer into the mob and force a charge.

For the police not to fall into their trap, they need incredible discipline, training, special equipment like gas and horses and riot gear to weather the bricks and bottles, and barricades. The trap is to get the police into a brawl, and people who are just "out for a good time" with their friends will get beat, making for good front page news.

Firearms are new, but if the police in France weren't equipped to handle the riot (sounds like not) then they either take a lot of injuries or fire into the crowd and kill. I'm pretty sure firearms would call for at least tear gas, but lethal force? No fucking way, not when a police force's job is to minimize innocent deaths. Plus, it's a lot harder to aim guns than most people think... I am honestly not too worried about teenagers with guns against trained police, and none of the French officers died so I wouldn't judge them based on that. If they felt threatened personally they would have either retreated or opened fire.

[Big Phil]

Who are these "riot organisers" and "professional rioters"? I've never heard mention of them anywhere else, ever.

During the WTO riots in Seattle (back in '99 or so) some organized "anarchists" came and stayed at our house. They came ready with spray paint, signboards, and "riot gear," which consisted of several changes of heavy clothing so the tear gas and pepper spray wouldn't bother them as much.

They were the brother and friends of my other roommates, and they were up there specifically to cause trouble and disrupt the WTO. I gave serious thought to calling the cops and letting them know these people were at my house, but I figured it might piss off the other roommates, being as these were siblings and friends of theirs, and they sure as hell weren't going to turn them in.

[Siege]

Part of me wonders whether it's really random chance that these riots coincide with large-scale protests and strikes against the labour reforms proposed by the Sarkozy government.