Chiss vs. Yevetha

[VT-16]

Mon Remonda was enough to hold up against Iron Fist

The Mon Remonda held out against a ship that's one hundred times bigger and has 20 to 30 times more firepower? I find that difficult to believe.

[TC Pilot]

It happened in one of the Wraith Squadron books, probably Iron Fist. The exact same thing happened in Darksaber with the Galactic Voyager.

Again, the Super Star Destroyers have never been practical warships.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Frankly, until the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, there was no need for either ship. Mon Remonda was enough to hold up against Iron Fist, and the 5th Fleet was going to attack N'zoth with the intention of facing Intimidator and the entire Black Fleet supporting the Yevethan thrustships.

Super Star Destroyers have never been practical warships..

Err? Considering NR later commissioned Star Dreadnaughts of their own, obviously someone begged to differ. Not least, they proved extremely useful in dealing with masses of warships such as at the Battle of Mon Calamari during the Yuuzhan Vong War. These warships are meant to kill masses of smaller warships at long range, and they are good at it. Not to mention, Eclipse had the dual role of taking apart planetary shielding and holding and annihilating enemy fleets.

And quite frankly, as VT-16 say, it is highly implausible, that a smaller warship like the Galactic Voyager could withstand withering bombardment from some 20 VSDs and 1 Star Dreadnaught. Even the Mon Remonda engagement seemed ridiculous at best, especially when an ISDII at Kuat took a full barrage from the Iron Fist and simply crumbled utterly.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Extrinsically, the authors were blowing BS up their own asses about the length of Executor and generally do not want to invent really new ships. So they steal Ex's thunder when they want it for their purposes and nerf the shit out of it when a Rebel or Republic ship needs to hold out against them. That and they don't understand the realistic nature of space combat even considering the canonical capabilities however unrealistic they are, as presented in SW. Especially power differentials from your ISD all the way up to the Death Star.

Intrinsically, this why I take the position that dreadnoughts in question were poorly maintained, manned, fueled, or equipped. Or the "MC" figures refer to something other than a distinct hull form or class; after all the Home One, the Liberty, the wingless Liberty analog, and a couple pre-Endor EU ships are all referred to as MC80s. Now the "every ship is unique" line is obviously stupid, and there's obviously several distinct classes of different role and scale amongst one MC designation. So why not another? Maybe there are other MC80Bs besides the 1200-meter variant. Maybe there are more than one class of MC90, besides the common Defiance and her 1,255-meter ilk. The JAT Sourcebook depicts the Galactic Voyager with a radically different hullform than the Defiance. So we actually have evidence that this is in fact true for at least two cases of MC90s. Extrinsically we know the artists just screwed up. But it is food for thought. A speculative theory is maybe the Mon Remonda and Galactic Voyager belonged to the "Home One-class" of MC80Bs and MC90s, respectively, just as the latter belonged to the MC80 line. Similarly, the common 1200 and 1255 meter MC80Bs and MC90s may be the "Liberty-class" of their production line. Both would explain the incidents.

[TC Pilot]

Err? Considering NR later commissioned Star Dreadnaughts of their own, obviously someone begged to differ.

The 17 km Viscount-class Star Defender is one of the stupidest things to be released in recent canon. This is the New Republic we're talking about, the same New Republic that had to be nearly coerced to authorize the commission of a fifth strategic battle fleet, that had refused to recommission a pair of Executors, had absolutely no considerable external or internal enemies, and was the spiritual successor of a government that didn't even have a military. These are the people who railed against military spending so much that even the Empire had to hide Executor's size from them and who hate these monstrous ships so much that they refused to even use Super Star Destroyers in the midst of a full-scale war. Hell, these are the same people who refused to even fight the Yuuzhan Vong.

Not least, they proved extremely useful in dealing with masses of warships such as at the Battle of Mon Calamari during the Yuuzhan Vong War. These warships are meant to kill masses of smaller warships at long range, and they are good at it.

These warships are meant to scare the shit out of people. All the Executors are are oversized Imperial-classes. They're bigger, have more guns, troops, and fighters. That's it. They also have a track record of failing miserably.

Not to mention, Eclipse had the dual role of taking apart planetary shielding and holding and annihilating enemy fleets.

Which a comparative fleet of smaller ships could do just as well, such as in the liberation of Coruscant, or the New Republic's entire war strategy.

And quite frankly, as VT-16 say, it is highly implausible, that a smaller warship like the Galactic Voyager could withstand withering bombardment from some 20 VSDs and 1 Star Dreadnaught.

You're right. Ackbar and Leia must have died horrible, firery deaths at Yavin.

The MC90 has a knack, infuriatingly so, of surviving battles with Super Star Destroyers.

Even the Mon Remonda engagement seemed ridiculous at best, especially when an ISDII at Kuat took a full barrage from the Iron Fist and simply crumbled utterly.

Or maybe the captain of the Mon Remonda wasn't so incompetent as to let his ship be positioned in such away as to be blown away by thousands of turbolasers?

Guns are guns, whether its a million piled onto one ship, or one strapped onto a million. Yes, Mon Remonda would have been obliterated by a full broadside. That's common sense. It would have also been obliterated by Iron Fist's equivalent in smaller ships.

[Illuminatus Primus]

A really big ship with a million guns can survive an engagement unscathed that a million ships with one gun will have to weather with significant losses as each individual ship is much more easily destroyed in total. The total defense of a ship-with-a-million-guns must be defeated before even a millionth of ship is killed. Therefore except in circumstances where the ship-with-a-million-guns is exceptionally vulnerable, it'll be the superior candidate.

The fact is, even if the literature fucks up the size and capability of them, Saxton's figures for the Executor are canon. As such it has the capability to waste a hundred Star Destroyers in pitched engagement without necessarily being defeated. One must come up with special-case arguments rather than just arguing the dreadnoughts are incapable or poorly-armed, since we know that not to be the case canonically. Further, the strategic fleets set upon the Republic by the resurgent Empire after Palpatine's return were rife with Super Star Destroyers of countless types and roles, and they totally destroyed the New Republic, even though they retained technical military superiority according to their own intelligence analysis.

[TC Pilot]

A really big ship with a million guns can survive an engagement unscathed that a million ships with one gun will have to weather with significant losses as each individual ship is much more easily destroyed in total. The total defense of a ship-with-a-million-guns must be defeated before even a millionth of ship is killed. Therefore except in circumstances where the ship-with-a-million-guns is exceptionally vulnerable, it'll be the superior candidate.

And firepower relates to survivability since when?

The Executor is only preferable in individual ship-to-ship slugging matches. As a result, only an idiot would engage them in that way. Tactically and strategically, an equivalent number of Star Destroyers are far more useful. Sure, if it came down to simply bashing one's opponent to death, a larger ship would win. That's common sense and I'm not arguing against that.

The fact is, even if the literature fucks up the size and capability of them, Saxton's figures for the Executor are canon. As such it has the capability to waste a hundred Star Destroyers in pitched engagement without necessarily being defeated.

Would you mind providing a quote? I've never heard that before.

Off the top of my head, both Executor and Reaper were knocked out by concentrated attacks by vastly smaller ships.

Further, the strategic fleets set upon the Republic by the resurgent Empire after Palpatine's return were rife with Super Star Destroyers of countless types and roles, and they totally destroyed the New Republic, even though they retained technical military superiority according to their own intelligence analysis.

You're making some very hasty conclusions about a campaign virtually no one knows anything about with fleets of completely unknown size and composition.

[VT-16]

Practically every source ever written on the Executor-class, has it rival a fleet of inferior ships in firepower, which makes the somewhat ludicrous defeats in some books seem unrealistic and inconsistent with its capabilities. The only rationalization I have, is that most of them occur when the ships are at their most vulnerable and get surprised.

In fact, I think the Lusankya got ambushed when it was understaffed, underpowered, in need of severe maintenance etc. Which is at least better than "lolz tiny Mon Cal supership just does it David vs. Goliath style".

And firepower relates to survivability since when?

Since the advent of warfare. As all true warships in SW can relay their power into their heavy guns, a ship with thousands of heavy turbolasers will outgun a ship with 48.

[TC Pilot]

Practically every source ever written on the Executor-class, has it rival a fleet of inferior ships in firepower, which makes the somewhat ludicrous defeats in some books seem unrealistic and inconsistent with its capabilities. The only rationalization I have, is that most of them occur when the ships are at their most vulnerable and get surprised.

How exactly can you honestly get an estimate of a ship's capabilities that requires you label "practically every source ever written on the" subject inconsistent?

Maybe you should actually base its capabilities off what it does, not what you want it to do.

[VT-16]

Maybe you should actually base its capabilities off what it does, not what you want it to do.

Since the ITW:OT explicitly notes that the Executor-class has over 5000 guns and can yield a defensive shield, the equivilant of which is the total power of a medium star, and can survive a hit from several ISDs coming out of hyperspace at an enormous speed, there is no need to imagine anything less. The X-wing/Wraith Squad/KJA books just keep fudging it with their miracle fighter-pilots.

[Illuminatus Primus]

And firepower relates to survivability since when?

Since the n-squared law was postulated. The Executor will be able to reduce the firepower of a 100 ISDs in pitched battle faster than they will be able to reduce Executor's. They must completely erode Executor's shielding in order to do that, whereas Executor can kill a significant percentage of the opposition with each salvo, progressively reducing its fighting capability and credibility as an opponent.

The Executor is only preferable in individual ship-to-ship slugging matches. As a result, only an idiot would engage them in that way. Tactically and strategically, an equivalent number of Star Destroyers are far more useful. Sure, if it came down to simply bashing one's opponent to death, a larger ship would win. That's common sense and I'm not arguing against that.

Its superior in an equivalent-mass engagement, especially with escorts. It has 5000 heavy weapon emplacements, relative to the ISD I's 10 and the the ISD II's 8. It has the shielding of a medium star, probably 150 times the power output, it can survive relativistic ramming by a couple Star Destroyers.

Off the top of my head, both Executor and Reaper were knocked out by concentrated attacks by vastly smaller ships.

The Executor was engaged by "countless" Rebel ships and repeatedly attacked by ramships after a battle where it had been told to hold station and ordered not to engage. Its damage would NOT have resulted in a total loss in a normal situation. We don't know anything about Reaper's loss.

You're making some very hasty conclusions about a campaign virtually no one knows anything about with fleets of completely unknown size and composition.

Such as your agenda-based analysis which posits pitifully weak Executor dreadnoughts relative to mass compared to small vessels, despite the shield dissipation equal to a medium star and probably over 150 times the power output of an ISD? We SAW the SSDs forming the backbone of the armada. They kicked the stuffing out of a militarily superior NR, BEFORE the Galaxy Gun was deployed. Canon.

Furthermore, your strategic analysis of the New Republic circa the Black Fleet crisis is misinformed. At that time the New Republic could only boast some 11,000 member states. Therefore, the New Republic comprises, at that point, about 1.1 percent the territory of the Galactic Empire at the time of the Battle of Yavin, if one counts only the one million full members states of the latter, and ignores the fifty million protectorates and colonies also controlled by the Empire. Therefore, a significant percentage of the galaxy is independent, non-aligned, or only loosely-affiliated with the New Republic. Perhaps in this post-Operation SHADOW HAND galacticopolitical situation, the majority of the galaxy entered only into tentative free association with the Republican government on Coruscant, with only the long-time partisans of the Republican/Anti-Imperialist movement remaining in full membership. Perhaps the majority of the galaxy's communities and polities remained wary of another major shift in the balance of power and also concerned about retribution for surrendering or defecting to the Empire in the case of most of the galaxy, during Palpatine's restoration. Remember, in this post-Imperial collapse galaxy, with its depleted naval/military might and highly disrupted civil society, even Daala's terrorist force was of significant concern, as was her and Pelleaon's zombie empire. Therefore, a strong military buildup policy and a firmly realist and hegemonic foreign policy (or officially internal policy, if the New Republic retains its predecessor state's penchant for pretensions of ecumenism) is prudent if the New Republic wishes to return to its pre-Thrawn preeminence.

In this light, political pressure to build up the military and have a firm hand makes a great deal of sense in the political logic of partisan Republicans. The opposition to the selfsame policy also makes sense from the political logic of the non-aligned or freely-associated powers, as well as opposition political movements within the Republic or the fifth columns of competing states' with ambitions to claim the mandate of heaven from the Republicans; all of whom would prefer a weak galactic state for the time being. All in all, it appears the hardline Republicans eventually won out by the eve of the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, with the galaxy firmly ensconced under the New Republic and with it having now beginning to field similar military might to the Empire preceding it. Look at the wimpy New Class Fifth Fleet as sending out feelers for the prospective military buildup to the electorate and political base, and dipping into the heavily damaged Kuat while the Mon Calamari are working on the build-up proper, which we see by the eve of the YV invasion in the Viscount-class dreadnought and Mediator-class battlecruiser. The renamed New Republic of the Swarm Wars boasts new Kuati dreadnoughts in its OOB as a matter of course (Megador).

One should remember when considering the New Class that the security and defense requirements of a realistic galaxy civilization are very large. Especially one which commissioned the 160-km Death Star I - equivalent to tens of millions of Imperial Star Destroyers - and the 900-km Death Star II - equivalent to billions of Imperial Star Destroyers. Even if that civilization is a nominally unified, peaceful one, relative to the scale and number of ships we are discussing, there exists a very very large margin. Whole battle fleets can be manned and fielded as experimental forces and proofs-of-concept, without straining reasonable analogies to our military forces. This would explain the relative mysterious disappearance of the Fifth Fleet. Useful tactics and hardware gleaned from the New Class experiment were put into use, after all. That much of this is supposition and speculation, I do not deny.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The 17 km Viscount-class Star Defender is one of the stupidest things to be released in recent canon. This is the New Republic we're talking about, the same New Republic that had to be nearly coerced to authorize the commission of a fifth strategic battle fleet, that had refused to recommission a pair of Executors, had absolutely no considerable external or internal enemies, and was the spiritual successor of a government that didn't even have a military. These are the people who railed against military spending so much that even the Empire had to hide Executor's size from them and who hate these monstrous ships so much that they refused to even use Super Star Destroyers in the midst of a full-scale war. Hell, these are the same people who refused to even fight the Yuuzhan Vong.

And yet this same New Republic finally moblized and replaced all its losses and went into nearly Total War mode calling up and drafting soldiers and pilots and crew to man the new warships. So much so that there were plenty of warships and plenty of crews, but all the crews were green as hell. By and large, not only did the New Republic bring out all the heavy guns in the fleet, they started massing hundreds, if not thousands of warships for a single battles and the Lusankya and Guardian and Viscount have proven pivotal in their given roles. The Lusankya alone managed to wipe out 70 Yuuzhan Vong Warships (if I recall) at the second Battle of Borleias without so much as batting an eyelid.

These warships are meant to scare the shit out of people. All the Executors are are oversized Imperial-classes. They're bigger, have more guns, troops, and fighters. That's it. They also have a track record of failing miserably.

Failed miserably? At the same time, you had cases of successes. Quite frankly, authors have been prone to always ensure the Imperials lose and just because we haven't seen successes, doesn't mean they don't exist. By and far, even the defeat of the Executor at Endor was a fluke.

Which a comparative fleet of smaller ships could do just as well, such as in the liberation of Coruscant, or the New Republic's entire war strategy.

The Eclipse could take down a planetary shield with a single blast from its Superlaser. This something not even Torpedo spheres could do, and the only other weapon that could accomplish something similar was the Death Star. A fleet of warships would have to spend hours pounding away the shield and at the same time attempt to hold off any reinforcements that come into play.

You're right. Ackbar and Leia must have died horrible, firery deaths at Yavin.

The MC90 has a knack, infuriatingly so, of surviving battles with Super Star Destroyers.

For which cannot be accounted for going by the specifications of the ships given. Quite frankly, author's fiat or some stupid byzantine recon has to be concocted just to explain away their lack of a demise.

Or maybe the captain of the Mon Remonda wasn't so incompetent as to let his ship be positioned in such away as to be blown away by thousands of turbolasers?

Even at the bare minimum, the Iron Fist could deliver more firepower on the Mon Remonda. Do you need reminding that turbolasers have ranges far exceeding the length of the warship which meant that even guns mid way through the warship could target and pound the Mon Remonda?

Guns are guns, whether its a million piled onto one ship, or one strapped onto a million. Yes, Mon Remonda would have been obliterated by a full broadside. That's common sense. It would have also been obliterated by Iron Fist's equivalent in smaller ships.

Smaller ships, with lower survivability rate, with some losses, while the Iron Fist comes out unscathed?

[VT-16]

These warships are meant to scare the shit out of people. All the Executors are are oversized Imperial-classes. They're bigger, have more guns, troops, and fighters. That's it. They also have a track record of failing miserably.

Failing miserably when the Empire was at its height or failing miserably when the Empire's infrastructure was crumbling, in-fighting was heavy and resources and logistics weren't as reliable?

I've seen plenty of the latter, little of the former. And when I say "fail miserably" I do not mean "succumb to a large fleet of lesser ships", I mean "succumb to one Mon Cal cruiser because they're just so wanked-up by the author who disregards their specific capabilities".

The Executors are also no "oversized Imperial-classes". If anything, something like the Shockwave was an "oversized Imperial-class", or the Galactic-class battle carrier, which looked like a stubbier, bloated ISD.

[Anguirus]

Mon Remonda was enough to hold up against Iron Fist

Uh...sort of. It was not actually going to win that fight. Zsinj was going to blow it away but then covert enemy action (i.e. Wraith Squadron) took out his second SSD and dropped IF's shields, IIRC.

[TC Pilot]

Since the ITW:OT explicitly notes that the Executor-class has over 5000 guns

Which is irrelevant without any context. What type of guns? How many can be brought against a single target? Where are the blind spots?

and can yield a defensive shield, the equivilant of which is the total power of a medium star

Which is meaningless without any comparison.

and can survive a hit from several ISDs coming out of hyperspace at an enormous speed

And which can have its shields blown out at Endor after a relatively brief engagement with a badly mauled Rebel fleet, backed up by over three dozen Star Destroyers.

there is no need to imagine anything less.

Less than what? These figures have absolutely no context to them.

The X-wing/Wraith Squad/KJA books just keep fudging it with their miracle fighter-pilots.

Since when are capital ships starfighters?

The Executor will be able to reduce the firepower of a 100 ISDs in pitched battle faster than they will be able to reduce Executor's.

Why exactly? Executor will have to destroy each ship in turn, whereas the fleet would only have to damage it to such an extent that it can no longer retaliate effectively against the surviving opponents.

They must completely erode Executor's shielding in order to do that

And Executor will not have to do that to each Star Destroyer?

whereas Executor can kill a significant percentage of the opposition with each salvo

As oppossed to a comparative number of smaller ships firing the exact same volume and quality right back at it? What kind of scenario are you thinking of, where the Star Destroyers just sit in a line waiting their turn?

progressively reducing its fighting capability and credibility as an opponent.

So Executor is immune to damage?

It has 5000 heavy weapon emplacements, relative to the ISD I's 10 and the the ISD II's 8.

Where are you getting those numbers for the ISDs? Last I checked, Mk. I's had 60 heavy turbolasers, 8 dual-heavies, and 2 quad-heavies.

probably 150 times the power output

Source? If I'm missing this kind of information, I'd like to know where it's from.

The Executor was engaged by "countless" Rebel ships and repeatedly attacked by ramships after a battle where it had been told to hold station and ordered not to engage.

That certainly doesn't stop it from shooting back. If we go by the novelization, the Executor was absolutely mauled (engine failures, hull breaches) and prone to spontaneous explosions when its bridge fails. It certainly wasn't doing well, in spite of its size and firepower.

Such as your agenda-based analysis which posits pitifully weak Executor dreadnoughts relative to mass compared to small vessels, despite the shield dissipation equal to a medium star

Ooh, wow, "equal to a medium star." Can that actually be compared to the power output of say, oh, I don't know, any other ship so it actually means something?

and probably over 150 times the power output of an ISD?

"Probably?" Why is it just probably? Where are you getting this from? Why did you ignore me the last time I asked you for quotes?

Maybe instead of being a paranoid little bitch seeing "agenda-driven" arguments everywhere you might deign to reveal where the hell you're getting your information from? Or can you not fathom someone might not know the freakin' reactor output of Executor?

We SAW the SSDs forming the backbone of the armada.

Where? A couple badly drawn blobs orbitting Byss? Allegiance? What?

Is it so hard to actually let someone know what you're talking about?

They kicked the stuffing out of a militarily superior NR

Bullshit. Ackbar said just before the Battle of Bilbringi Thrawn's victories had finally evened out the odds. Are you suggesting Thrawn, who was chronically desperate for ships, outnumbered the Emperor's fleet?

Furthermore, your strategic analysis of the New Republic circa the Black Fleet crisis is misinformed. At that time the New Republic could only boast some 11,000 member states.

And? How many of those are integral Core Worlds and how many are pissant backwaters? What's the context of the number? Is it in respect to a horrendously minimalized galaxy?

How can you honestly accept such disgustingly minimalist numbers?

Therefore, a strong military buildup policy and a firmly realist and hegemonic foreign policy (or officially internal policy, if the New Republic retains its predecessor state's penchant for pretensions of ecumenism) is prudent if the New Republic wishes to return to its pre-Thrawn preeminence.

Which completely ignores the fact that many New Republic leaders and Senators didn't even think they needed the 5th Fleet and thought the military was already excessively large. And even that horribly miniaturized fleet was what was sent against Intimidator, Black Sword Command, and the entire Yevethan thrustship fleet, and it was expected to win.

And yet this same New Republic finally moblized and replaced all its losses and went into nearly Total War mode calling up and drafting soldiers and pilots and crew to man the new warships. So much so that there were plenty of warships and plenty of crews, but all the crews were green as hell. By and large, not only did the New Republic bring out all the heavy guns in the fleet, they started massing hundreds, if not thousands of warships for a single battles

None of which is in any way relevant to what's going on years earlier. Things, has you might not have noticed, changed when a horde of psycopathic mass-murderers came out of nowhere and declared war against civilization itself. I'm not arguging against the militarization of the New Republic after Vector Prime, but it's idiotic to assume the political and military situations were even remotely similar.

and the Lusankya and Guardian and Viscount have proven pivotal in their given roles.

Sitting out half the war, static defensive points, and suicide bombers?

The Lusankya alone managed to wipe out 70 Yuuzhan Vong Warships (if I recall) at the second Battle of Borleias without so much as batting an eyelid.

Well, gee, probably because it has an ass-load of guns. Fortunately, the Yuuzhan Vong happen to be inclined to slugging matches and Lusankya came in out of nowhere right in the middle of a battle.

Quite frankly, authors have been prone to always ensure the Imperials lose and just because we haven't seen successes, doesn't mean they don't exist.

So we should base our assessment of a ship based off fights that may or may not have happened and we don't know anything about? What kind of attitude is that?

By and far, even the defeat of the Executor at Endor was a fluke.

The whole battle was a fluke. That doesn't change the fact that the Rebel fleet concentrated its fire and blasted her shields down. It was not exactly a shinning moment in the history of the Imperial Navy. Certainly, the Executor was not down for the count, and even after the loss of the bridge, it would have inflicted some pretty heavy casualties.

The Eclipse could take down a planetary shield with a single blast from its Superlaser. This something not even Torpedo spheres could do, and the only other weapon that could accomplish something similar was the Death Star. A fleet of warships would have to spend hours pounding away the shield and at the same time attempt to hold off any reinforcements that come into play.

I'm not exactly sure what this is supposed to show. If the only option is to blow up the planet in the process of knocking down its shield - and since when are superlasers even normal on SSDs? - or spend hours knocking its shields down (wasn't Hoth's shield "able to deflect any bombardment" anyway?), I'll take the latter.

For which cannot be accounted for going by the specifications of the ships given. Quite frankly, author's fiat or some stupid byzantine recon has to be concocted just to explain away their lack of a demise.

Sure, we could come up with any number of excuses every time an SSD fucks up. It's just as valid to simply decide SSDs don't add up to being as effective as the numbers suggest. They could be like Bismarck in that respect.

Even at the bare minimum, the Iron Fist could deliver more firepower on the Mon Remonda. Do you need reminding that turbolasers have ranges far exceeding the length of the warship which meant that even guns mid way through the warship could target and pound the Mon Remonda?

I'm sorry, what do you want me to say? That Mon Remonda didn't survive against Iron Fist backed up by maybe a half dozen smaller vessels? I'm certainly not arguing that Executor's weapond load-out wouldn't blow her away in some fantastical ideal situation, or that the Ex should slaughter whole fleets of ships. But it doesn't.

Smaller ships, with lower survivability rate, with some losses, while the Iron Fist comes out unscathed?

I'm sorry, but what's the difference between 5,000 heavy turbolasers fired at a target by one ships and 5,000 heavy turbolasers fired at a target by 100 ships? A turbolaser is a turbolaser.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Which is irrelevant without any context. What type of guns? How many can be brought against a single target? Where are the blind spots?

The emplacements are visible as raised bumps on the superstructure and with such coverage there are no blind-spots aside from right next to the ship or direct aft (which features main engines more intense any any guns at close range). Each is the size of the octuple turrets on the ISD II. 5000 vs. 8.

And we can scale the Death Star down or Venator up and get well over 1e27 W for the power output; it is explicitly stated in canon that warships can direct their full reactor output to guns. Therefore, the Executor has over a hundred times as much firepower as an ISD in the 1e25 neighborhood.

Which is meaningless without any comparison.

[eye roll] Because we don't have Acclamator shielding to scale from...oh wait. You're just arguing from ignorance. "We don't have it explicitly stated! Therefore my thesis is automatically correct. I dismiss your evidence!"

And which can have its shields blown out at Endor after a relatively brief engagement with a badly mauled Rebel fleet, backed up by over three dozen Star Destroyers.

The Rebel fleet stretched beyond visual range and had "countless" ships according to the novelisation, which were deployed across system for much of the battle. The bridge shields were the sole loss and it was temporary until the projectors were killed on the sensor dome. Even then, had the engine/guidance system not rammed the ship into the Death Star, had the techs replaced the shield projectors (standard operating procedure by EGTW&T), and had the backup bridge been activated as per procedure the Executor would still have remained a viable combatant. Basically it was only the guidance system malfunction and the Death Star's proximity which irrevocably took out the Executor, otherwise it would've remained in battle.

Furthermore, Han specifically brushes off the Executor as a concern for the BVR "countless" fleet the Rebels deployed. So it stands to reason the Empire underestimated the fleet that would be deployed, and therefore only added the Death Star's firepower and 30% of the Executor's firepower (three dozen ISDs) to the fleet. The Rebels had the fleet necessary to deal with 100% of the Ex's firepower, but 30% + Death Star put them over the edge. Still, the Imperials were getting mauled and bloodied by Palpatine's stupid orders and the close combat tactics of the Rebels. They still would've won, but the tactical balance was way off because of three factors: 1.) Palpatine's hold order, 2.) the Rebels' unconventional tactics, 3.) Imperial underestimation of the Rebel fleet.

Less than what? These figures have absolutely no context to them.

Because no one has extrapolated from Saxton's figures and data...oh except you. I can't believe this McEwok bullshit has popped up here of all places.

Why exactly? Executor will have to destroy each ship in turn, whereas the fleet would only have to damage it to such an extent that it can no longer retaliate effectively against the surviving opponents.

Because the Executor can't kill a several dozen ISDs at once? 10% of its firepower is equivalent to 10 ISD's alpha strikes; HTLs cycle at about 1/second, so every couple seconds, the Ex can kill, say, 10 ISDs. Every salvo, the firepower the 100 ISDs can put out decreases by 10%; every salvo the ISDs deliver does not reduce the Ex's firepower at all until the shield dissipation is exceeded (requiring coordinated fire ACROSS SEVERAL VESSELS SIMULTANEOUSLY - another big ship advantage, much easier to fire-link its own batteries than several ship located in separate locations in space) and its overwhelmed its heat sinks (generally at least an order of magnitude the dissipation rate in J, otherwise they'd be pointless) before it degrades the Ex's fighting ability AT ALL. You're claiming its as easy for 100 ships to coordinate salvo fire (ruining their maneuvering advantage as they must fly in formation) for at least a dozen seconds while the Ex may maneuver and fire-link its own batteries to obliterate several enemy ships per salvo, greatly increasing the time the remaining ships need to overwhelm Ex.

And Executor will not have to do that to each Star Destroyer?

The Ex is a dreadnought, ipso facto is has the biggest guns in a fleet. The Star Destroyer has 8 major weapon emplacements, the Ex has 5000. We can be charitable and say its cannons instead of emplacements, that's 64 to 5000. The Executor can target a fraction of its guns for individual salvos that will outright kill an ISD, full stop, while the whole FORMATION of ships must COORDINATE FIRE CONSISTENTLY to batter the Ex. You're an idiot.

As oppossed to a comparative number of smaller ships firing the exact same volume and quality right back at it? What kind of scenario are you thinking of, where the Star Destroyers just sit in a line waiting their turn?

Because coordinating fire in formation across 100 ships is as easy as fire-linking the batteries on a single ship, purpose connected to fire control suites for exactly that purpose. I forgot.

Where are you getting those numbers for the ISDs? Last I checked, Mk. I's had 60 heavy turbolasers, 8 dual-heavies, and 2 quad-heavies.

ISD-I has 6 heavy dual turrets, 2 heavy ion turrets, 2 quad heavy? medium? turrets. If the mythical WEG-BS 60 TL/60 ions exist, they're physically irrelevent compared to the main armament, and Saxton's canonical work gives us weapons which scale output to size. ISD-II has 8 octuple heavy turrets.

Source? If I'm missing this kind of information, I'd like to know where it's from.

Whoa whoa whoa. What happened to "the same volume and quality"? Huh? Guess what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander. Nice goalpost shifting.

Ooh, wow, "equal to a medium star." Can that actually be compared to the power output of say, oh, I don't know, any other ship so it actually means something?

Venator scaled up to ISD gives 1e25 W output.

"Probably?" Why is it just probably? Where are you getting this from? Why did you ignore me the last time I asked you for quotes?

Saxton's volume-to-power warship ratio figures. Ender and others have done them, they've been presented in depth here. Its called the Search Function.

Where? A couple badly drawn blobs orbitting Byss? Allegiance? What?

The hunchback cruiser is distinct. So are its very long attendant Star Destroyers. The Allegiance-class examples? I'm not willing to say every differently-drawn blob is a different ship, but if they go to the trouble of scaling its size against a bridge tower, acknowledged as correctly scaled to actual ISDs (like Emancipator) in the comic and known as standard, then its admissible. Clearly the artist and creator meant for a ship really big relative to the tower, much bigger relative than an ISD. And you can piss and whine all you want, but its there.

Bullshit. Ackbar said just before the Battle of Bilbringi Thrawn's victories had finally evened out the odds. Are you suggesting Thrawn, who was chronically desperate for ships, outnumbered the Emperor's fleet?

DESB - direct quote from the NRI, the NR is superior militarily to the Empire at the end of DE.

And? How many of those are integral Core Worlds and how many are pissant backwaters? What's the context of the number? Is it in respect to a horrendously minimalized galaxy?

What's wrong, you don't like quotes and FACTS when they DON'T suit you? Fuck you. You only give a shit about sucking literalist cock on the canon when its fighter jocks getting the better of Ex's in low quality novels.

How can you honestly accept such disgustingly minimalist numbers?

Because as I just did, its rationalizable, asshole. Therefore its admissible. What, maximalism-against-the-evidence is good for blowing up the scale of the NR but not good for the Executor? Oh wait, its firepower its mathematically described in the canon. My mistake, you actually have less ground.

Did you forget that Operation SHADOW HAND reduced the NR back to the Rebel Alliance? By Empire's End, the Empire had control of every part of the galaxy except part of the Outer Rim and (presumably only part of, but not specified) the Expansion Region.

Which completely ignores the fact that many New Republic leaders and Senators didn't even think they needed the 5th Fleet and thought the military was already excessively large. And even that horribly miniaturized fleet was what was sent against Intimidator, Black Sword Command, and the entire Yevethan thrustship fleet, and it was expected to win.

"How can't tolerate such absurd minimalism!!!?!?!?!" They knew it wasn't really crewed properly, equipped as standard, etc. These primitives rose up and seized a dock, and that means they're just as potent as if fielded by the Imperial Navy and properly supplied, maintained, and equipped by its logistics train? If North Korea managed to seize a Nimitz for 12 years, it wouldn't necessary and doubtfully would maintain the same combat capability seperated from a full crew, trained to operate as a unit, and properly maintained and equipped. But I'm sorry you get your military knowledge from your cum-stained copy of Solider of Fortune.

[Murazor]

The Rebel fleet stretched beyond visual range and had "countless" ships according to the novelisation, which were deployed across system for much of the battle.

Every source that mentions the battle of Endor has the Imperial fleet there having a major edge over the Rebels, without counting the Death Star II. And we know that the Imperial fleet is a few dozen ISDs strong + 1 SSD and the obscure communications ship.

DESB - direct quote from the NRI, the NR is superior militarily to the Empire at the end of DE.

NRI? New Republic Intelligence? Any chance of this being more of that infamous "Rebel propaganda" or simply wrong info? Or is it information written from an out-of-universe pespective?

"How can't tolerate such absurd minimalism!!!?!?!?!" They knew it wasn't really crewed properly, equipped as standard, etc. These primitives rose up and seized a dock, and that means they're just as potent as if fielded by the Imperial Navy and properly supplied, maintained, and equipped by its logistics train? If North Korea managed to seize a Nimitz for 12 years, it wouldn't necessary and doubtfully would maintain the same combat capability seperated from a full crew, trained to operate as a unit, and properly maintained and equipped. But I'm sorry you get your military knowledge from your cum-stained copy of Solider of Fortune.

Actually, the Black Fleet is heavily implied to be more potent under Yevethan control that it was under the Imperial's. The Yevethans are explicitly stated to have mad engineering skillz and noted to have replaced imperial equipment with systems that worked far above Imperial standards. About the only ship of the Black Fleet pointed to have technical problems was the EX-F, an Imperial prototype/testbed unit.

[TC Pilot]

The emplacements are visible as raised bumps on the superstructure and with such coverage there are no blind-spots aside from right next to the ship or direct aft (which features main engines more intense any any guns at close range). Each is the size of the octuple turrets on the ISD II. 5000 vs. 8.

Maybe I'm reading this http://theforce.net/swtc/exec.detail.html wrong, but it says there's only 942 to an ISDs 8

And we can scale the Death Star down or Venator up and get well over 1e27 W for the power output; it is explicitly stated in canon that warships can direct their full reactor output to guns. Therefore, the Executor has over a hundred times as much firepower as an ISD in the 1e25 neighborhood.

Thank you for finally giving something beyond vague assertions. Why this was so hard before I don't know.

[eye roll] Because we don't have Acclamator shielding to scale from...oh wait. You're just arguing from ignorance. "We don't have it explicitly stated! Therefore my thesis is automatically correct. I dismiss your evidence!"

Maybe you're too stupid to understand, but saying Executor has a shield-power output of a "medium star" means absolutely jack-shit when you have nothing to compare its strength with.

The Rebel fleet stretched beyond visual range and had "countless" ships according to the novelisation, which were deployed across system for much of the battle. The bridge shields were the sole loss and it was temporary until the projectors were killed on the sensor dome. Even then, had the engine/guidance system not rammed the ship into the Death Star, had the techs replaced the shield projectors (standard operating procedure by EGTW&T), and had the backup bridge been activated as per procedure the Executor would still have remained a viable combatant. Basically it was only the guidance system malfunction and the Death Star's proximity which irrevocably took out the Executor, otherwise it would've remained in battle.

Good work repeating what I've already said. That must make you feel smart.

Furthermore, Han specifically brushes off the Executor as a concern for the BVR "countless" fleet the Rebels deployed. So it stands to reason the Empire underestimated the fleet that would be deployed, and therefore only added the Death Star's firepower and 30% of the Executor's firepower (three dozen ISDs) to the fleet. The Rebels had the fleet necessary to deal with 100% of the Ex's firepower, but 30% + Death Star put them over the edge. Still, the Imperials were getting mauled and bloodied by Palpatine's stupid orders and the close combat tactics of the Rebels. They still would've won, but the tactical balance was way off because of three factors: 1.) Palpatine's hold order, 2.) the Rebels' unconventional tactics, 3.) Imperial underestimation of the Rebel fleet.

None of which I really care to argue against (beyond the Rebels outnumbering the Imperials, I agree completely).

Because no one has extrapolated from Saxton's figures and data...oh except you. I can't believe this McEwok bullshit has popped up here of all places.

Go ahead and keep thinking that, shit-for-brains.

Because the Executor can't kill a several dozen ISDs at once? 10% of its firepower is equivalent to 10 ISD's alpha strikes; HTLs cycle at about 1/second, so every couple seconds, the Ex can kill, say, 10 ISDs. Every salvo, the firepower the 100 ISDs can put out decreases by 10%; every salvo the ISDs deliver does not reduce the Ex's firepower at all until the shield dissipation is exceeded (requiring coordinated fire ACROSS SEVERAL VESSELS SIMULTANEOUSLY - another big ship advantage, much easier to fire-link its own batteries than several ship located in separate locations in space) and its overwhelmed its heat sinks (generally at least an order of magnitude the dissipation rate in J, otherwise they'd be pointless) before it degrades the Ex's fighting ability AT ALL. You're claiming its as easy for 100 ships to coordinate salvo fire (ruining their maneuvering advantage as they must fly in formation) for at least a dozen seconds while the Ex may maneuver and fire-link its own batteries to obliterate several enemy ships per salvo, greatly increasing the time the remaining ships need to overwhelm Ex.

Thank you. I stand corrected.

Whoa whoa whoa. What happened to "the same volume and quality"? Huh? Guess what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander. Nice goalpost shifting.

So, in other words, no, you won't bother quoting the source that says where Executor could slaughter 100 ISDs and has 150 times the power output and end this argument here and now because you're too fucking stupid to read what I actually said and would rather scream "ZOMG shifting goalposts!!1!" like a little douche?

Maybe this is too much for you to comprehend, dumbass, but I don't fucking know everything there is to Star Wars, nor have I even read a majority of the EU. So if there is a source that PROVES ME WRONG, flat-out, explicitely even, I want to know what it is. I'm not out here to try and trick everyone into believing my evil-sinister minimalist agenda like some bloody trektard, you paranoid dipshit. From what I've seen of the canon, it was the conclusion I came to. If *gasp* God forbid there's something else out there that would make that conclusion wrong, fine. I want to know.

Get it yet?

Venator scaled up to ISD gives 1e25 W output.

Thank you.

Saxton's volume-to-power warship ratio figures. Ender and others have done them, they've been presented in depth here. Its called the Search Function.

Wow, that must have been quite an effort for you to actually do for a change.

And you can piss and whine all you want, but its there.

DESB - direct quote from the NRI, the NR is superior militarily to the Empire at the end of DE.

Really? Wow, the warlords must really have kicked the shit out of each other after falling out after liberating Coruscant.

What's wrong, you don't like quotes and FACTS when they DON'T suit you? Fuck you. You only give a shit about sucking literalist cock on the canon when its fighter jocks getting the better of Ex's in low quality novels.

Aaaand once again you degenerate into a little spazzy bitch...

Yes, how dare I question what planets those were! Such arrogance and impudence to even consider every planet isn't the exact same or that there's a massive difference between the Core Worlds and elsewhere!

Actually, I'm starting to wonder where the fuck you keep getting the idea that I somehow like it where Rouge Squadron is blowing up Star Destoyers or beats Lusankya single-handedly. Jee, notice I didn't even mention that when I was arguing about the poor SSD performances? No, of course not. You're too busy beating off to your knee-jerk, anti-minimalist hard-on. Idiot.

Oh wait, its firepower its mathematically described in the canon. My mistake, you actually have less ground.

And all you had to do was provide the math, fucktard.

Did you forget that Operation SHADOW HAND reduced the NR back to the Rebel Alliance? By Empire's End, the Empire had control of every part of the galaxy except part of the Outer Rim and (presumably only part of, but not specified) the Expansion Region.

I fully aware of that. It was also a collosal waste of men and material, because virtually none of it is around by the JAT. Those conquests shouldn't have been that hard, not with the Galaxy Gun forcing hundreds upon hundreds of worlds to surrender without a fight.

"How can't tolerate such absurd minimalism!!!?!?!?!" They knew it wasn't really crewed properly, equipped as standard, etc. These primitives rose up and seized a dock, and that means they're just as potent as if fielded by the Imperial Navy and properly supplied, maintained, and equipped by its logistics train? If North Korea managed to seize a Nimitz for 12 years, it wouldn't necessary and doubtfully would maintain the same combat capability seperated from a full crew, trained to operate as a unit, and properly maintained and equipped. But I'm sorry you get your military knowledge from your cum-stained copy of Solider of Fortune.

Now now, no need for you to be the presumptuous little bitch anymore.

First off, the Yevetha were used as slave repair crew, engineers, and construction workers for the shipyards (apparently because of how easily they figured these things out) during N'zoth's Imperial occupation, so it's not like they didn't know what they had gotten their hands on. Secondly, the Yevetha captured several hundred thousand Imperials when they rebelled and used the survivors (IIRC only 1/3 survived in the prison camps) as crew onboard the Imperial ships for the battle.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Maybe I'm reading this http://theforce.net/swtc/exec.detail.html wrong, but it says there's only 942 to an ISDs 8

Inside the Worlds of the Star Wars Trilogy

Maybe you're too stupid to understand, but saying Executor has a shield-power output of a "medium star" means absolutely jack-shit when you have nothing to compare its strength with.

If you don't know or read very much - and I really don't, but the ROTS/AOTC ICS and the rest of Saxton's work is pretty established here - then maybe you shouldn't respond with disagreement with "WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? THE EX IS CLEARLY STUPID!" Rather, something more like "Huh? It went down with pretty sad odds in xx and yy. What information do we have on her defense and offense?" If you're tacitly admitting to not having access to much data you shouldn't be so assertive about a claim.

None of which I really care to argue against (beyond the Rebels outnumbering the Imperials, I agree completely).

I'm not saying they outnumbered the Imperials. Say that the Reb fleet was planning on rushing Ex with her ramships and ganging up on her to take her out and then mop up other vessels. A dreadnought with an insufficient screen should be very vulnerable to such tactics. That would not have been a fine deal, but there were several dozen other Star Destroyers they didn't plan for screening Ex for just such a purpose (this is what destroyers do for dreadnoughts). Which neutralized their ramship rush and gang-up tactic, and limited the successful deployment of their formerly ace-up-the-sleeve hardware. So that takes significant firepower off the chess board or virtually attrits it heavily.

On the other hand, the Imperials deployed their now decisive (but probably not as large a lead as hoped against the Rebs) advantage stupidly. They left some rear interdiction forces and fleet reserves at the edge of the system or otherwise detached from the volume of combat, and they deployed the main element to block and interdict likely escape trajectories instead of engaging and enveloping. They counted on the Death Star's artillery to castrate the force, but it was also deployed stupidly. Destroying shit like the Liberty and frigates when it should've eliminated the Corellian battleships, the other major combatants described in the novelisation, and the Home One's.

The Rebels took advantage of their hesitation and decided the terms of the engagement, closing with the main element to very close range before they could engage and attacking before the force could rally or recieve new orders. They took the momentum of the Empire, the Death Star, and the maneuverability of the Imperial force off the table and knocked out some crucial vessels in short order, evening the balance. However, the battle still didn't have to be lost. But the Empire failed to properly withdraw and regroup to engage or to close its interdiction and reserve units. Another problem, as Sun Tzu pointed out, is you don't put the enemy's back to a wall unless you truly want to know how hard they can fight - they have nothing to lose. The Imperials probably didn't have the margin of superiority that they had hoped from the start, and taking the Death Star out of the equation ceases to make it a bloodless (for them anyway) shooting-fish-in-the-barrel operation that it was supposed to be.

Rather the enemy can bleed the Imperial force pretty badly even if it cannot win. The bulk of the rebel force concentrates all of its remaining juice on Executor - regardless of losses -, hoping to buy overall time for the fighter element to destroy the Death Star. They manage to inflict superficial damage and penetration, which is followed by a combination of a lucky shot by A-Wings, a bridge crash before damage control could patch up the local (not total) shield failure, and a malfunctioning guidance system before auxiliary command could be restored (there are several flag officers in the main force and a grand admiral aboard the Death Star, so Piett's loss was not critical). The combination of which was that the largely undamaged, still battle-capable Executor, composing the majority of firepower of the main force, rams itself into the Death Star. This costs the remainder of the main force its last remaining C4I (the Comm Ship being killed earlier).

The battle STILL didn't have to be lost, even the remainder of the force outclassed the rebel fleet and probably could've forced a withdrawal on their terms, to say nothing of the miracles a battle mediation-gifted grand admiral might be able to conjure. But Palpatine died, and with it the dark side was diffused - leading to panic and damp fear - and the aforementioned grand admiral's battle meditation abruptly ceased. As GADM Thrawn put it, from here on out, the remainder fought like cadets. The Death Star exploded, doubtlessly hurting the already gutted force. Still, another grand admiral and lesser flag officers remained, but Pelleaon violated the lawful chain of command and ordered a general retreat, leaving the loyal forces outnumbered and outgunned. Still, one grand admiral fought on with the remnants of the holding force for four hours until finally boarded and detained.

That's my scenario, the most sensible one I can draw. We can see that in the film the Ex is not gutted with fire and damage like the novelisation. But there still exists room for "off-screen" Imperial and Rebel forces more like those in the novelisation.

Anyway, the battle was lost because of a few profoundly arrogant mistakes by the Empire, a lot of little mistakes, and generally everything going wrong. Combined with a couple big doses of really really heavy luck on the Rebels' part. Especially with Executor, which by all means regardless of everything else should have kept on fighting and immolated the remainder of the Rebel force if its guidance system hadn't malfunctioning in the fiasco.

Really? Wow, the warlords must really have kicked the shit out of each other after falling out after liberating Coruscant.

I suspect Ackbar's "leveling the field" comment referred to fleet build-up that was sustained to all the way past DE.

Yes, how dare I question what planets those were! Such arrogance and impudence to even consider every planet isn't the exact same or that there's a massive difference between the Core Worlds and elsewhere!

You said that it was ridiculous and how can I believe such minimalism. If a figure doesn't explicitly contradict anything else, and it is rationalizable, I'll take it. Besides, the Core Worlds are the only ones which matter, so winning all of them fully over would bring over their colonies and spheres of influence like falling dominoes. I DO think that the 11,000 were disproportionately important, HOWEVER, I DO ALSO think that a bunch of the galaxy leaned where the wind was blowing - at this time, with the New Republic - but was of two-minds about its because of how fucked up everything got during SHADOW HAND.

I fully aware of that. It was also a collosal waste of men and material, because virtually none of it is around by the JAT. Those conquests shouldn't have been that hard, not with the Galaxy Gun forcing hundreds upon hundreds of worlds to surrender without a fight.

They'd made huge gains way before the Galaxy Gun was even deployed. They'd reclaimed over half the galaxy.

First off, the Yevetha were used as slave repair crew, engineers, and construction workers for the shipyards (apparently because of how easily they figured these things out) during N'zoth's Imperial occupation, so it's not like they didn't know what they had gotten their hands on. Secondly, the Yevetha captured several hundred thousand Imperials when they rebelled and used the survivors (IIRC only 1/3 survived in the prison camps) as crew onboard the Imperial ships for the battle.

Repair crew and engineers and construction workers aren't equivalent to a fleet's crewmen which have trained together in exercises for engagement and technical personnel. They still have been cut off from proper supply of everything from parts to whatever. You can have the best B-52 mechanics under the sun, but leave them in a hangar and deprive them of their logistics train support and their SOL. I wouldn't be surprised if their combat fitness was highly degraded. Not irrelevent, but a poorly maintained, improperly crewed or supplied Iowa-class wouldn't fair well on a battleline, even against shit like Bismarck. As Stuart would say, think systems not weapons.

Of course, the real problem is unfortunately although Michael P. Kube-McDowell was one of the only early-run EU authors to really know about and describe realistic modern-type militaries and their deployment, he completely misinterpreted the technology, scale, and tactics of Star Wars. Its as if his shit takes place in a different sci-fi universe. This is the same guy who thought Coruscant couldn't possibly be a city planet (wrong). Though unlike Zahn, Traviss and Stackpole et al, he had a clue how militaries actually worked and looked like. A pity he couldn't have written his series with Saxton's help, in which case we probably would've gotten a credible force by realistic SW tech and scale standards. The SW equivalent of full battlefleets, with battle lines filled with really big, big-gunned, tough battleships, screened by nimble and smaller destroyers, and scouted for and etc by cruisers, supported by multi-rolers like ISDs and carriers, etc.

[Master_Baerne]

And firepower relates to survivability since when?

Since the advent of warfare. As all true warships in SW can relay their power into their heavy guns, a ship with thousands of heavy turbolasers will outgun a ship with 48.

Well, yes, 'cause...1000 is more than 48. Did you mean, a ship with enough power to power such massive numbers of guns will also have a more powerful shield system?

[TC Pilot]

Inside the Worlds of the Star Wars Trilogy

So where are the other 4000?

If you don't know or read very much - and I really don't, but the ROTS/AOTC ICS and the rest of Saxton's work is pretty established here - then maybe you shouldn't respond with disagreement with "WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? THE EX IS CLEARLY STUPID!"

Yes, that must be why I had to repeatedly ask you where you were getting your information from.

I don't know, maybe I overestimated people here when I assumed saying I didn't know where you were getting those figures for the SSD and that you're comparing its power output to nothing implies that I'm not familiar with the figures.

Rather, something more like "Huh? It went down with pretty sad odds in xx and yy. What information do we have on her defense and offense?" If you're tacitly admitting to not having access to much data you shouldn't be so assertive about a claim.

Learn to read, then.

Would you mind providing a quote? I've never heard that before.

Where are you getting those numbers for the ISDs?

Source? If I'm missing this kind of information, I'd like to know where it's from.

Ooh, wow, "equal to a medium star." Can that actually be compared to the power output of say, oh, I don't know, any other ship so it actually means something?

"Probably?" Why is it just probably? Where are you getting this from? Why did you ignore me the last time I asked you for quotes?

Maybe instead of being a paranoid little bitch seeing "agenda-driven" arguments everywhere you might deign to reveal where the hell you're getting your information from? Or can you not fathom someone might not know the freakin' reactor output of Executor?

Where? A couple badly drawn blobs orbitting Byss? Allegiance? What?

Is it so hard to actually let someone know what you're talking about?

I'm not saying they outnumbered the Imperials. Say that the Reb fleet was planning on rushing Ex with her ramships and ganging up on her to take her out and then mop up other vessels. A dreadnought with an insufficient screen should be very vulnerable to such tactics.

That wasn't the Rebel plan at all. Lando had to convince Ackbar to close in and engage at point-blank range, which from the novelization we learn crews aren't even trained for because that's not how capital ships fight.

That would not have been a fine deal, but there were several dozen other Star Destroyers they didn't plan for screening Ex for just such a purpose (this is what destroyers do for dreadnoughts). Which neutralized their ramship rush and gang-up tactic, and limited the successful deployment of their formerly ace-up-the-sleeve hardware. So that takes significant firepower off the chess board or virtually attrits it heavily.

One minor nitpick first: you're making it sound like the rebels had planned this from the start. They certainly weren't expecting to find an Imperial fleet of any considerable size guarding the Death Star. And further, what exactly are rampships supposed to do against a ship that can survive three mile-long triangles-o-doom smashing into it at something close to the speed of light?

I'm also a bit annoyed by the implication that the Imperial-classes are merely destroyers, but I guess in the context of escorting the Executor they are.

On the other hand, the Imperials deployed their now decisive (but probably not as large a lead as hoped against the Rebs) advantage stupidly. They left some rear interdiction forces and fleet reserves at the edge of the system or otherwise detached from the volume of combat, and they deployed the main element to block and interdict likely escape trajectories instead of engaging and enveloping. They counted on the Death Star's artillery to castrate the force, but it was also deployed stupidly. Destroying shit like the Liberty and frigates when it should've eliminated the Corellian battleships, the other major combatants described in the novelisation, and the Home One's.

Going off the novelization, the Death Star fired a hell of a lot more times than we see on-screen. And keep in mind Ackbar ordered the retreat as soon as he found out the Death Star II was online. The rebel fleet being pulled out of hyperspace in itself would have been catastrophic, and having to fight a running battle with a far superior Imperial force would have made short work of them.

The Rebels took advantage of their hesitation and decided the terms of the engagement, closing with the main element to very close range before they could engage and attacking before the force could rally or recieve new orders.

I'm not sure where you're getting that from. As soon as the fleets closed on each other, the battle degenerated into a chaotic free-for-all slugging match, one the Imperials were going to win.

The battle STILL didn't have to be lost, even the remainder of the force outclassed the rebel fleet and probably could've forced a withdrawal on their terms, to say nothing of the miracles a battle mediation-gifted grand admiral might be able to conjure. But Palpatine died, and with it the dark side was diffused - leading to panic and damp fear - and the aforementioned grand admiral's battle meditation abruptly ceased. As GADM Thrawn put it, from here on out, the remainder fought like cadets.

Truce at Bakura Sourcebook:

"This event [Executor's destruction] seemed to trigger a significant demoralization throughout the Imperial fleet--the accuracy of Imperial fire dropped off. While the decrease was not substantial, it was noticeable." -pg. 8

"Contrary to popular opinion, the Imperial fleet did not surrender after the Death Star exploded. In fact, the Alliance accepted no Imperial surrender at Endor. Imperial troops are generally disciplined and experienced fighters, and the men at Endor were the finest that Palpatine could field. Despite the battle's sudden reversal in momentum, the fighting raged on for nearly four more hours." -pg. 9

The Death Star exploded, doubtlessly hurting the already gutted force. Still, another grand admiral and lesser flag officers remained, but Pelleaon violated the lawful chain of command and ordered a general retreat, leaving the loyal forces outnumbered and outgunned. Still, one grand admiral fought on with the remnants of the holding force for four hours until finally boarded and detained.

It sure did. Teshik fought on for three hours, alone, onboard his flagship the Eleemosynarny.

Anyway, the battle was lost because of a few profoundly arrogant mistakes by the Empire, a lot of little mistakes, and generally everything going wrong. Combined with a couple big doses of really really heavy luck on the Rebels' part. Especially with Executor, which by all means regardless of everything else should have kept on fighting and immolated the remainder of the Rebel force if its guidance system hadn't malfunctioning in the fiasco.

The only real reason the Empire lost is because Pellaeon ordered his retreat. The Rebel fleet was an absolute wreck by the end of the battle (to put it mildly), and if even a handful of Star Destroyers had supported Teshik, the Rebellion would have been a cloud of debris thinly spread across the system.

I suspect Ackbar's "leveling the field" comment referred to fleet build-up that was sustained to all the way past DE.

I don't see how that makes sense. The New Republic outnumbered Thrawn's army at the start of the campaign. Within a month they were even.

They'd made huge gains way before the Galaxy Gun was even deployed. They'd reclaimed over half the galaxy.

Even that's not saying much. Thrawn only started with a quarter of the former empire (and that's excluding the Deep Core and most of the warlords), and by Bilbringi he had reclaimed another quarter of the Empire's territory back. The "Imperial Coalition" kept the offensive going and liberated chunks of the Core Worlds (including Coruscant, which in turn probably brought more worlds back to the Empire). When Palpatine enters the picture, the "Empire" comes to include his Deep Core domain and the remaining warlords (particularly the Pentastar Alignment). He already had a pretty big head start to that "half the galaxy" figure.

Further, this is still ignoring the tremendous waste of ships and soldiers. All those SSD-analogs were gone by JAT and Darksaber.

First off, the Yevetha were used as slave repair crew, engineers, and construction workers for the shipyards (apparently because of how easily they figured these things out) during N'zoth's Imperial occupation, so it's not like they didn't know what they had gotten their hands on. Secondly, the Yevetha captured several hundred thousand Imperials when they rebelled and used the survivors (IIRC only 1/3 survived in the prison camps) as crew onboard the Imperial ships for the battle.

Repair crew and engineers and construction workers aren't equivalent to a fleet's crewmen which have trained together in exercises for engagement and technical personnel.

True, but this isn't like dumping a bunch of Aborigines into a tank. These are people who know how to repair and maintain these kinds of things, and they have over a decade to train whatever crew compliment the thousands and thousands of Imperial prisoners don't fill up.

Actually, the implication of the ease with which the Imperials retook Intimidator suggests it, and possibly the other Imperial ships, were predominantly crewed by Imperials.

They still have been cut off from proper supply of everything from parts to whatever. You can have the best B-52 mechanics under the sun, but leave them in a hangar and deprive them of their logistics train support and their SOL. I wouldn't be surprised if their combat fitness was highly degraded. Not irrelevent, but a poorly maintained, improperly crewed or supplied Iowa-class wouldn't fair well on a battleline, even against shit like Bismarck. As Stuart would say, think systems not weapons.

The Yevetha captured only a handful of Black Sword Command, but a large number of shipyards and other facilities designed to accomodate the fleet fell into their hands. They certainly had the parts, and they certainly knew what to do with them. They also had the industry and build dozens of thrustships essentially through reverse engineering and interrogating Imperial prisoners, and access to the rest of the galaxy for parts if they're so desperate.

Remember, this is Pride of the Yevetha here. They're not going to have their flagship be a dilapidated pile of crap and have it be the centerpiece of their battle strategy in the defense of their sacred homeworld against the onslaught of who they see as vermin.

[Illuminatus Primus]

So where are the other 4000?

I keep being a dick because you insist on a double standard. Subjective reading of situations from crap fighter jock novels must be taken COMPLETELY ON FACE VALUE, but you reach for any excuse to dismiss direct reference to figures. We don't know anything about the readiness of Iron Fist or Lusankya, its crew quality, the types of warheads deployed by fighters, and other countless extenuating circumstances. But to you that's rock solid and direct citation of mathematical figures requires doubt. Proper approach is to rationalize all information; the hard and best sources are the solid figures. Other sources much be interpreted more loosely, as they're not rigorous. And of course, not all Executor-class vessels need be built equally, especially outside the Empire proper and in a wasteland of civil warfare and political disruption.

Anyway, I imagine they're in the cortex. Saxton doesn't exactly prefer to make shit up when he had data at hand.

I don't know, maybe I overestimated people here when I assumed saying I didn't know where you were getting those figures for the SSD and that you're comparing its power output to nothing implies that I'm not familiar with the figures.

The ballpark for energy output and shielding figures is available in the canon films and anyone with an education and a few minutes can figure it out. You're like a Trekkie using your ignorance as a shield and externalizing responsibility for being familiar with evidence. Ignorant people shouldn't have strong opinions.

Maybe instead of being a paranoid little bitch seeing "agenda-driven" arguments everywhere you might deign to reveal where the hell you're getting your information from? Or can you not fathom someone might not know the freakin' reactor output of Executor?

I'm irritated because you apply a much stricter standard of evidence to anything but the subjective "impressions" from which you gleaned your position, and display Trekkie-like ignorance for the basic content of the film.

That wasn't the Rebel plan at all. Lando had to convince Ackbar to close in and engage at point-blank range, which from the novelization we learn crews aren't even trained for because that's not how capital ships fight.

The close-quarters combat was an emergency tactic to bleed as much of the Imp force as possible; I never said it was part of the plan.

One minor nitpick first: you're making it sound like the rebels had planned this from the start. They certainly weren't expecting to find an Imperial fleet of any considerable size guarding the Death Star. And further, what exactly are rampships supposed to do against a ship that can survive three mile-long triangles-o-doom smashing into it at something close to the speed of light?

I didn't say they planned on fighting the large Imperial force; but the command crew of the Tyderium was neither surprised nor alarmed by the presence of Executor. So the rebel force must have had tactical options available which made dealing with one Executor and a pair of attendant destroyers manageable. The issue with ramships and missile weapons is they can engage the enemy beyond their gun range, similar to torpedo tactics in battleship combat. Anyway, we know they were not alarmed by 1 Executor + 2 ISDs, but not prepared for 1 Executor + 1 multi-mile comm ship + ~36 ISDs (it is possible there were an equivalent force of ISDs approaching from the opposite direction; we know it was a pincer attack). None of that changes the fact that the Executor is armed with some 5000 heavy weapon emplacements and has shielding dissipation equivalent to a medium star. We don't fully understand the extenuating circumstances.

This is like fully having the stats on an Iowa-class battleship and asserting that it couldn't slaughter a cruiser force because you have some limited, close angles of a fleet engagement where it largely is sunk by what appears to be an inferior force despite knowing that it sunk largely through fluke and technical failures. Of course the Executor should not engage a force of 100 ISDs by itself; that's like saying the Iowa-class is inferior to an equal tonnage in submarines because its vulnerable without its destroyer screen. Apples and oranges. How about the fact that an ISD simply cannot weather even a terrorist group's meager shore arty (the Hoth ion cannon), whereas the Executor could (its shielding exceeded the power level of the cannon's power planet, as per Inside the Worlds of the Star Wars Trilogy). They're different roles. But that doesn't mean an ISD can do everything and is stronger.

We don't know the figures on the [Home One]-type or its role. Nor do we know anything about the "Corellian battleships" that the novelisation pegs with the Executor. Maybe they had the Ex + 2 small destroyers/cruisers well out-matched but not two pincers, one of which containing Ex + 1 specialized medium combatant + 36 small destroyers/cruisers.

I'm also a bit annoyed by the implication that the Imperial-classes are merely destroyers, but I guess in the context of escorting the Executor they are.

They screen the Ex, certainly the Ex, being a battleship/command ship/carrier is not expected to operate independently. I'll concede that I do not feel that the Ex is a proper dedicated combatant; Admiral Giel's flagship during the search for the Teezl is a good example of a dedicated line combatant - full-armor coverage, limited hangar suites, etc. The Ex is clearly designed to be more a prestige flagship with enough capability to more than take care of itself in a typical engagement. But that doesn't mean the Ex is a stupid investment. We've never seen a command ship in SW that wasn't capable of standing on the line and fighting if it has to. It probably is that it is considered unreasonable in SW deep space combat to expect any vessel to be never be on the front line, so even the command ships should be expected to fight and fight hard, unlike, say, the USN's Blue Ridge-class command ships.

Going off the novelization, the Death Star fired a hell of a lot more times than we see on-screen. And keep in mind Ackbar ordered the retreat as soon as he found out the Death Star II was online. The rebel fleet being pulled out of hyperspace in itself would have been catastrophic, and having to fight a running battle with a far superior Imperial force would have made short work of them.

I don't disagree; what's your point.

I'm not sure where you're getting that from. As soon as the fleets closed on each other, the battle degenerated into a chaotic free-for-all slugging match, one the Imperials were going to win.

I know; it still shifted the terms of battle to the Rebels, who knew what they were about to fly into a clusterfuck and took a huge Imperial piece off the table - the Death Star superlaser.

"This event [Executor's destruction] seemed to trigger a significant demoralization throughout the Imperial fleet--the accuracy of Imperial fire dropped off. While the decrease was not substantial, it was noticeable." -pg. 8

"Contrary to popular opinion, the Imperial fleet did not surrender after the Death Star exploded. In fact, the Alliance accepted no Imperial surrender at Endor. Imperial troops are generally disciplined and experienced fighters, and the men at Endor were the finest that Palpatine could field. Despite the battle's sudden reversal in momentum, the fighting raged on for nearly four more hours." -pg. 9

Well that's since been retconned; we know the majority of the fleet fled with Pelleaon and several defected immediately to become warlords; its established they weren't as quite disciplined as this would have us believe. And we know from the novelisation that Palpatine's death (and Declaan's termination of battle mediation) led to a partial rout: the dark side was diffused and choatic without Palpatine's intellect and pawns to focus it, and it led to panic and fear amongst the survivors.

The only real reason the Empire lost is because Pellaeon ordered his retreat. The Rebel fleet was an absolute wreck by the end of the battle (to put it mildly), and if even a handful of Star Destroyers had supported Teshik, the Rebellion would have been a cloud of debris thinly spread across the system.

This would be a consequences of Palpatine's death and the panic engendered by the dark side's diffusion. As Thrawn put it, had Palpatine not died the TIEs probably would've stopped the reactor core run, and the fleet should've won.

I don't see how that makes sense. The New Republic outnumbered Thrawn's army at the start of the campaign. Within a month they were even.

Yeah but a general retreat (following Thrawn's death) and a loss of a cloning facility will do wonders for giving the other team a lead. One way or another, they'd recovered between Thrawn's death and the Imperial resurgence such that by the end of DE they still held a "winning hand" according to BRIG Darkmere of the Intelligence Operations Command. Or the Imperial Civil War fucked up them up pretty bad. Which says something about the fighting quality of the reunified Empire during Shadow Hand compared to the Republic.

Even that's not saying much. Thrawn only started with a quarter of the former empire (and that's excluding the Deep Core and most of the warlords), and by Bilbringi he had reclaimed another quarter of the Empire's territory back. The "Imperial Coalition" kept the offensive going and liberated chunks of the Core Worlds (including Coruscant, which in turn probably brought more worlds back to the Empire). When Palpatine enters the picture, the "Empire" comes to include his Deep Core domain and the remaining warlords (particularly the Pentastar Alignment). He already had a pretty big head start to that "half the galaxy" figure.

Palpatine was responsible for the post-Thrawn operations, so I'm not sure what your point is. He managed to whip the Republic without central war command of his forces, but merely through Clone War-esque manipulation and conspiracy.

Further, this is still ignoring the tremendous waste of ships and soldiers. All those SSD-analogs were gone by JAT and Darksaber.

We don't know what the deal during JAT. Is your assertion the forces were completely wasted, but we don't have any information relating to that. As for Darksaber, whose surprised they don't have shit left considering their in a region with no manpower or resources and they've been slaughtering each other constantly for years? Ships bigger than Thrawn's campaign were still deployed, such as Shockwave - which could a VSD with one salvo.

True, but this isn't like dumping a bunch of Aborigines into a tank. These are people who know how to repair and maintain these kinds of things, and they have over a decade to train whatever crew compliment the thousands and thousands of Imperial prisoners don't fill up.

Actually, the implication of the ease with which the Imperials retook Intimidator suggests it, and possibly the other Imperial ships, were predominantly crewed by Imperials.

They had a skeleton crew and used slaving at the end of the BFC after their mutiny. That doesn't suggest they dominated the crew entirely.

The Yevetha captured only a handful of Black Sword Command, but a large number of shipyards and other facilities designed to accomodate the fleet fell into their hands. They certainly had the parts, and they certainly knew what to do with them. They also had the industry and build dozens of thrustships essentially through reverse engineering and interrogating Imperial prisoners, and access to the rest of the galaxy for parts if they're so desperate.

Remember, this is Pride of the Yevetha here. They're not going to have their flagship be a dilapidated pile of crap and have it be the centerpiece of their battle strategy in the defense of their sacred homeworld against the onslaught of who they see as vermin.

I never said it was crap, there's just quite a few reasons why it is not necessarily in the fighting shape an Executor-class of the Imperial Navy prior to Endor.

[TC Pilot]

I keep being a dick because you insist on a double standard. Subjective reading of situations from crap fighter jock novels must be taken COMPLETELY ON FACE VALUE, but you reach for any excuse to dismiss direct reference to figures. We don't know anything about the readiness of Iron Fist or Lusankya, its crew quality, the types of warheads deployed by fighters, and other countless extenuating circumstances. But to you that's rock solid and direct citation of mathematical figures requires doubt. Proper approach is to rationalize all information; the hard and best sources are the solid figures. Other sources much be interpreted more loosely, as they're not rigorous. And of course, not all Executor-class vessels need be built equally, especially outside the Empire proper and in a wasteland of civil warfare and political disruption.

Do you just spew out this inane bullshit to gratify yourself, or are you that bad at reading comprehension?

Anyway, I imagine they're in the cortex. Saxton doesn't exactly prefer to make shit up when he had data at hand.

Wow, couldn't have said that without that self-righteous diatribe preceding it, could you?

The ballpark for energy output and shielding figures is available in the canon films and anyone with an education and a few minutes can figure it out.

You're like a Trekkie using your ignorance as a shield and externalizing responsibility for being familiar with evidence. Ignorant people shouldn't have strong opinions.

Right, that's why I folded immediately when presented contradictory evidence.

For an idiot, you're pretty good at representing an SSD's capability.

I'm irritated because you apply a much stricter standard of evidence to anything but the subjective "impressions" from which you gleaned your position, and display Trekkie-like ignorance for the basic content of the film.

Pure bullshit. Care to demonstrate this, or is your definition of "apply a much stricter standard of evidence" really just "asking what the fucking source is"? And pray tell, where in any of the movies can one look and go "Ah ha! The Executor has the power output of a medium star! Ah ha! It can take out 150 Star Destroyers! Ah ha! It has 953 bumps that represent turbolasers!"?

The close-quarters combat was an emergency tactic to bleed as much of the Imp force as possible; I never said it was part of the plan.

"But at that close range we won't last long against those Star Destroyers!"
"We'll last longer than we will against that Death Star! And we might just take a few of them with us!"

I didn't say they planned on fighting the large Imperial force; but the command crew of the Tyderium was neither surprised nor alarmed by the presence of Executor.

Are you being so redundant on purpose?

How about the fact that an ISD simply cannot weather even a terrorist group's meager shore arty (the Hoth ion cannon), whereas the Executor could (its shielding exceeded the power level of the cannon's power planet, as per Inside the Worlds of the Star Wars Trilogy). They're different roles. But that doesn't mean an ISD can do everything and is stronger.

I would counter that, based on what we've seen, ISDs and Executor have identical roles except in instances when they're present together (not very often due to how rare they are), with ISDs only serving as screens because they have to, not because they were meant to or regularly do so. There's also the Executor entry in the EGTVV that states an ISD could do an Executor's job just as well (with the obvious exception of an SSD's power).

We don't know the figures on the [Home One]-type or its role. Nor do we know anything about the "Corellian battleships" that the novelisation pegs with the Executor. Maybe they had the Ex + 2 small destroyers/cruisers well out-matched but not two pincers, one of which containing Ex + 1 specialized medium combatant + 36 small destroyers/cruisers.

Frankly, if you're going to use the novelization for the Rebellion's fleet size, one should also take into account that the Imperial fleet might also have been larger than on-screen as well.

I don't disagree; what's your point.

You said the Death Star should have eliminated the battleships and Home One's, yet there's no reason to assume they didn't simply because it happened to blow up two cruisers on-screen.

I know; it still shifted the terms of battle to the Rebels, who knew what they were about to fly into a clusterfuck and took a huge Imperial piece off the table - the Death Star superlaser.

And? What is your point?

Well that's since been retconned;

Uhm, no, it hasn't. The Battle of Endor canonically continued for four hours after the Death Star was destroyed.

we know the majority of the fleet fled with Pelleaon and several defected immediately to become warlords; its established they weren't as quite disciplined as this would have us believe.

None of which changes the fact of the quotes I provided. A few went rouge on their own, the rest deserted with Pellaeon later, leaving Teshik to fight on by himself for three hours.

And we know from the novelisation that Palpatine's death (and Declaan's termination of battle mediation) led to a partial rout: the dark side was diffused and choatic without Palpatine's intellect and pawns to focus it, and it led to panic and fear amongst the survivors.

Yes, I know. The battle still went on for hours, and by the end of which only a quarter of the Rebel fleet was still in fighting condition.

This would be a consequences of Palpatine's death and the panic engendered by the dark side's diffusion. As Thrawn put it, had Palpatine not died the TIEs probably would've stopped the reactor core run, and the fleet should've won.

I know, idiot. And the battle would still have been won if Pellaeon hadn't called the retreat and abandoned Grand Admiral Teshik.

Yeah but a general retreat (following Thrawn's death) and a loss of a cloning facility will do wonders for giving the other team a lead.

Last time I checked, clones aren't ships.

One way or another, they'd recovered between Thrawn's death and the Imperial resurgence such that by the end of DE they still held a "winning hand" according to BRIG Darkmere of the Intelligence Operations Command. Or the Imperial Civil War fucked up them up pretty bad.

Palpatine was responsible for the post-Thrawn operations, so I'm not sure what your point is.

No, he wasn't. The "surviving members of the Emperor's ruling circle, in concert with six former starfleet commanders, stages a stunning assault on Coruscant" and devastated parts of the Core Worlds in their liberation.

He managed to whip the Republic without central war command of his forces, but merely through Clone War-esque manipulation and conspiracy.

No, he didn't. He had absolutely no part to play in Thrawn's campaign or the subsequent Core offensive of the "six former fleet commanders." At best, he killed off a commander here and there, stole as many ships as he could get his claws on, and may have even ordered Isard to let Coruscant fall to the Rebels.

Your "half the galaxy" claim is highly misleading, as most of that territory was already under Imperial control when he returned to the galaxy at large.

They had a skeleton crew and used slaving at the end of the BFC after their mutiny. That doesn't suggest they dominated the crew entirely.

So? There was enough of them to retake the ship, virtually unarmed, against aliens with a tendency to rip people's throats out with their bare hands (or claws).

I never said it was crap, there's just quite a few reasons why it is not necessarily in the fighting shape an Executor-class of the Imperial Navy prior to Endor.

Then you're just nit-picking.

And please, next time, try cutting away about 90% of your posts. Brevity is a far better characteristic than long-windedness.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The ballpark for energy output and shielding figures is available in the canon films and anyone with an education and a few minutes can figure it out.

What, are you too fucking stupid to generalize from the volume of the ISD to the volume of the DS and the latter's power output to do some quick number crunching? Fuck you.

"But at that close range we won't last long against those Star Destroyers!"
"We'll last longer than we will against that Death Star! And we might just take a few of them with us!"

No shit, Sherlock. That's exactly what I'm saying. Are you saying the Rebel tactic was not done because it was the best option they had left, and was the best odds for bleeding the enemy even if they were going to lose regardless?

Are you being so redundant on purpose?

You claimed there was no evidence the Rebels were ready to face any meaningful force; well Han etc implicitly didn't feel like the force was unprepared to deal with Ex and her two escorts.

I would counter that, based on what we've seen, ISDs and Executor have identical roles except in instances when they're present together (not very often due to how rare they are), with ISDs only serving as screens because they have to, not because they were meant to or regularly do so. There's also the Executor entry in the EGTVV that states an ISD could do an Executor's job just as well (with the obvious exception of an SSD's power).

Except the Executor is a command ship, a heavy carrier, and a fast battleship. We know it is a dreadnought. An ISD is not. The ISD cannot deploy landing forces like the one at Hoth unaided; it cannot weather rather weak shore arty, it cannot provide the fighter support the Ex can. It cannot pretend to be a battleship, the way the Ex can. Therefore, they have separate roles. The ISD does everything in a pinch - its a factotum -, though on a small scale, so one could say it could replace anything if they wanted to.

Frankly, if you're going to use the novelization for the Rebellion's fleet size, one should also take into account that the Imperial fleet might also have been larger than on-screen as well.

I said that. How about when I mentioned we know it was a pincer manuver, so it stands to reason the big shot full of 36 ISDs + 1 Ex may be only half the force?

You said the Death Star should have eliminated the battleships and Home One's, yet there's no reason to assume they didn't simply because it happened to blow up two cruisers on-screen.

In the novelisation they nuke a stupid Neb-B frigate and in the film we can see there are at least 2 Home One types remaining by the fall of the Executor.

Uhm, no, it hasn't. The Battle of Endor canonically continued for four hours after the Death Star was destroyed.

Yes, but with a bare handful of the force. The force as a whole wasn't as disciplined as the sources would have you believe, or they wouldn't have fled.

I know, idiot. And the battle would still have been won if Pellaeon hadn't called the retreat and abandoned Grand Admiral Teshik.

No shit; at every stage I said the battle didn't have to be lost if everyone didn't freak and follow Pelleaon. This isn't in dispute, so I don't know why you quoted me saying "the battle still didn't have to be lost" with more shit saying the same.

Last time I checked, clones aren't ships.

It reduces your ability to field ships as fast; do not be obtuse. With 60% of a 900 km DS2 in six months, manpower training and such will be a major constraint - perhaps the major constraint - in fielding fleets. This is the WHOLE POINT of why it mattered he had Mount Tantiss AND the Katana fleet, because it otherwise would have taken him quite awhile to deploy the latter.

No, he wasn't. The "surviving members of the Emperor's ruling circle, in concert with six former starfleet commanders, stages a stunning assault on Coruscant" and devastated parts of the Core Worlds in their liberation.

And prior to that, Palpatine had secretly secured the allegiance of all the major warlords and remaining commanders; this is in the Essential Guide to Chronology. The resurgence was not cooked up without him, just happened to work out great, then he was like "hey? why don't I join this happening party!"

No, he didn't. He had absolutely no part to play in Thrawn's campaign or the subsequent Core offensive of the "six former fleet commanders." At best, he killed off a commander here and there, stole as many ships as he could get his claws on, and may have even ordered Isard to let Coruscant fall to the Rebels.

Evidence? None. What evidence do you have that even a significant percentage of the fleet was rerouted to the Deep Core? How could they have kept them supplied in a region with no resources and no habitable worlds and virtually no inhabitants (relative to the galaxy proper)?

On the other hand, the EGTC SAYS he secured the loyalty and obedience of the elite prior to the campaign. Isard's Revenge is about this: Isard wanted to kill off her trouble making clone and grab Lusankya to help out in the coming resurgence. The EGTC SAYS that the fleet moved out to reclaim Thrawn's gains, putting it away from the core, "which is exactly how Emperor Palpatine wanted it." It doesn't get much more explicit than that, but here you go pretending you know what you're talking about. Or how about the DESB, which tells us the same thing, that Palpatine was basically manipulating the show since Isard's regency at the latest. It also tells us that "Thrawn's death was no accident." You're an idiot.

Your "half the galaxy" claim is highly misleading, as most of that territory was already under Imperial control when he returned to the galaxy at large.

EGTC ALSO tells us that all of Thrawn's gains were lost BEFORE the warlord-ERC coalition launched its assault from the rear to take Coruscant. Which, as the EGTC EXPLICITLY STATES, was at Palpatine's behest. The fall of Thrawn's territory took the NR fleet way out of position which is exactly what he wanted. The EGTC tell us that the Imperial Civil War was apparently all arranged; the DESB says it was to prune the weak and incompetent and disloyal from the herd. I suppose that means the mystery pixie was arranging all that, it could not possibly be Palpatine.

So? There was enough of them to retake the ship, virtually unarmed, against aliens with a tendency to rip people's throats out with their bare hands (or claws).

Are you claiming that any number of a former crew necessary to launch a mutiny necessarily is the same quantity which means a ship is at full-operating capacity. Your non sequiturs grow tiring.

[TC Pilot]

What, are you too fucking stupid to generalize from the volume of the ISD to the volume of the DS and the latter's power output to do some quick number crunching? Fuck you.

No, you brain-dead fucktard. Maybe if you pulled your shit-covered head out of your own ass your puerile little mind might comprehend most people don't fucking go around measuring volumes and correlate it to the energy required to destroy a whole planet for shits and giggles. Stop being such a conceited little dipshit crowing over "LOLZ anyone with education knows this!" Fucking douche.

No shit, Sherlock. That's exactly what I'm saying. Are you saying the Rebel tactic was not done because it was the best option they had left, and was the best odds for bleeding the enemy even if they were going to lose regardless?

The best option was to run away, you know, what Ackbar ordered the fleet to do immediately. The point-blank attack was not "an emergency tactic to bleed as much of the Imp force as possible" like you claimed, it was to escape from being blown to hell by the Death Star.

Nice dodge, good try idiot. Either stop being a dishonest prick or get your fucking argument straight.

You claimed there was no evidence the Rebels were ready to face any meaningful force; well Han etc implicitly didn't feel like the force was unprepared to deal with Ex and her two escorts.

No, I didn't. You'd know that if you can read: "They certainly weren't expecting to find an Imperial fleet of any considerable size guarding the Death Star." Remember, they expected "the Death Star is relatively unprotected." They fully expected to brush aside whatever forces were present, surround the Death Star in a "defensive perimeter," and celebrate their victory. Well golly gee wizz Batman, if Han and co. weren't surprised by three ships, that must not constitute "an Imperial fleet of any considerable size" compared to the Rebels! Please, don't put words into my mouth.

Good one there.

I said that. How about when I mentioned we know it was a pincer manuver, so it stands to reason the big shot full of 36 ISDs + 1 Ex may be only half the force?

Yeah. Misread that part. Sorry.

In the novelisation they nuke a stupid Neb-B frigate and in the film we can see there are at least 2 Home One types remaining by the fall of the Executor.

So? My point still stands.

The force as a whole wasn't as disciplined as the sources would have you believe, or they wouldn't have fled.

Riiiight, so some of the best soldiers the Empire can muster aren't as disciplined as Rebels because of one freak encounter...

No shit; at every stage I said the battle didn't have to be lost if everyone didn't freak and follow Pelleaon. This isn't in dispute, so I don't know why you quoted me saying "the battle still didn't have to be lost" with more shit saying the same.

This is absolutely hilarious. I really can't believe I'm being accused of having "more shit saying the same" by a long-winded blowhard wanking off to how much he can write on a subject I've said things like "None of which I really care to argue against (beyond the Rebels outnumbering the Imperials, I agree completely)." So what do you do? Spew out more long-winded diatribes that have nothing to do with the subject. Not only that, but when I respond to each with maybe one or two sentences either agreeing completely or making a "minor nitpick," you go into even more paragraph long rants like you've been waiting to recite this crap.

How about this? Shut the fuck up for a change.

It reduces your ability to field ships as fast; do not be obtuse.

Ah, so you're just switching from ship production to ship deployment.

Evidence the Dark Empire even used cloning to man their ships, most of which had actually just been stolen clandestinely from the original Imperial order of battle? Keep in mind Palpatine deployed a large number of war droids as well, particularly at Mon Calamari and Balmorra.

This is the WHOLE POINT of why it mattered he had Mount Tantiss AND the Katana fleet, because it otherwise would have taken him quite awhile to deploy the latter.

Which is irrelevant, unless you for some reason think ship production vastly outpaced training, having over a hundred manpower-intensive warship magically appear in your new fleet isn't going to matter to overall military production output. Thrawn needed more ships that he had, which stands to reason to needed more crew than he had. Mythical lost fleets, stolen Republic warships, and hijacked privately-owned warships isn't going to affect straight-up shipyard production at all.

And prior to that, Palpatine had secretly secured the allegiance of all the major warlords and remaining commanders; this is in the Essential Guide to Chronology.

The EC is an in-universe New Republic historical document, prone to both bias and the ignorance of the author. The DE sourcebook states "The Empire has regained the Core Worlds, and still holds the Deep Galactic Core, as well as many high industry regions beyond the Core Worlds. It seemed that the Imperial Coalition was dispersed – while it held Coruscant, the former capital wasn't used as the prime base of operations." Note that the "Imperial Coalition" was distinct from Palpatine's now "Empire." And it was this coalition of councilmen and fleet commanders that stormed the Core and retook the galactic capital. Palpatine didn't show up until they had spent several months killing each other and devastating much of the planet (apparently losing enough ships to keep Coruscant dangerously choked by their hulks over a year later).

Evidence? None. What evidence do you have that even a significant percentage of the fleet was rerouted to the Deep Core?

Thrawn was desperately short of ships, and nothing suggests he had hordes of those Super Star Destroyers that just happen to never be seen in his campaign, particularly at Bilbringi, which was supposed to be his knock-out blow against the Republic. Then, suddenly, we see all these wacky new ships no one's seen before orbitting Byss.

Keep in mind, when the remnants of Black Sword Command were slaved together after being freed from the Yevetha, they automatically jumped to hyperspace toward Byss.

How could they have kept them supplied in a region with no resources and no habitable worlds and virtually no inhabitants (relative to the galaxy proper)?

The very same way it could rebuild the Eclipse II within months of the first ship's loss. Byss was the Emperor's private "paradise world" that he'd been building up and fortifying since the end of ROTS, "secret military facilities, shipyards and training grounds for his exclusive troops" (DESB, p. 76). He's had a hell of a lot of time to prepare.

EGTC ALSO tells us that all of Thrawn's gains were lost BEFORE the warlord-ERC coalition launched its assault from the rear to take Coruscant.

"Despite cunning and remarkable strategies, Thrawn and C'baoth faced final defeat at the hands of the Republic. The new Imperial offensive was smashed. Or should have been." (DESB)

"The Imperial fleet regrouped near the Unknown Regions while Pellaeon assessed the situation. Thrawn had captured an astonishing amount of territory, nearly doubling the size of the Empire, but it had been held together by his authority alone. Without a similarly charismatic leader the union would splinter yet again. Pellaeon, while respected, was not such a leader. The Empire reverted again into warlordism, and the New Republic began recapturing its lost territory, planet by planet." EC, p. 89

And then, in the wake of Thrawn's death, "surviving members of the Emperor's ruling circle, in concert with six former starfleet commanders, stages a stunning assault on Coruscant."

This is happening simultaneously with the Republic's reconquest of lost territory, which couldn't have been nearly as rapid as Thrawn's campaign.

Which, as the EGTC EXPLICITLY STATES, was at Palpatine's behest.

How can a campaign that ended when the leaders couldn't decide who to acclaim the new Emperor and degenerated into killing each other in their bids for the Throne been initiated by the Emperor? Sure, he's acting secretly behind the scenes. "None of those struggling to seize power ever realized they were being observed from the audience chambers on Byss. All things were weighed and considered by the Emperor. Spies moved everywhere with confidence, probing loyalty, checking for those most likely to prove worthy." Sure, he orchestrated the deaths of "the incompetent and recalcitrant" and pulled figures for stability like Pestage back to Byss, and most everyone else were just pawns in his game, but it was all without anyone having the faintest idea that Palpatine had somehow miraculously survived Endor.

At this point, we're basically quibbling over semantics.

Are you claiming that any number of a former crew necessary to launch a mutiny necessarily is the same quantity which means a ship is at full-operating capacity.

You know, I'm just going to refer back to Murazor's claim that "Actually, the Black Fleet is heavily implied to be more potent under Yevethan control that it was under the Imperial's," that you ignored.