D&D psionics

[Turin]

Also, I don't have a feat called Practiced Manifester in my XPH (or anything equivalent to Practiced Spellcaster... where was that published?

It's from 'Complete Psionic'. While I won't say Overchannel is completely broken and game-breaking, it is there and it is like nothing a sorc or wiz can do.. WHich was the point I was rebutting. So please stay attentive.

I am paying attention... you're just dancing around throwing out a lot of vague allusions to particular issues without explaining why they're a problem. Some of these are apparently non-obvious and involved bringing in feats and powers from multiple books to create problematic balance issues. That's a problem with all classes.

Psions having a particular ability that doesn't match up with something wizards/sorcerers can do isn't a reason to call it broken.

Practiced Manifester is broken because it allows further channeling of PP, and thus more nova.

Am I to assume that it pretty much does the same thing as Practiced Spellcaster then? Sounds like a case of copy-paste editing and poorly thought out consequences of translating magic-based feats directly into psionic ones. Raising manifester level raises effective spell level, which is an effect that Practiced Spellcaster avoids. I'll concede that feat is a rather obvious problem as written.

Nope; XPH didn't fix the obvious Bestow Power loop(Wilder and Torc Of Power Preservation; spend 3, get 4!)

Whoop-dee-doo. That's the game-shattered loop? How is that even a loop? The torc doesn't affect the points transferred by Bestow Power. You're not getting anything for free there that you weren't already getting. (Not to mention that the torc is a late-game item at 36000gp).

and then they came back with the release of Earth Power(Races of Stone) and Midnight Augmentation(Magic Of Incarnum).

Again, you're adding in material from a zillion different books and expecting it to be balanced. Shit, doesn't Incarnum bring in an entirely new system of magic? (I don't have it.) That's a problem not unique to psionics. Look at something like the Hulking Hurler. Combine it with War Hulk and the rules for improvised weapons and you have madness.

Illithid Grapple, Affinity Field stupidity(You can get rather nasty recursive loops from it, and even without, a Psion and Cleric coordinating can heal the entire party in battle with this), Bestow Power Loops.. And you shouldn't be surprised I dislike psionics.

Affinity Field the 9th-level power? Wee! Ultimate powerz! You're trying to cram everything into this overly tight constraint for balance at the extreme edges. This is like complaining that Metamagic is broken because of what Epic-level clerics can do with it. [this point was moved out of order to group similar topics in my post]

They've generally abused Psionic Focus-feats until the Big Bad, then nova'd him out of existance. However, most of my ire was at the Bestow Power loops.
<snip>
Pretty much nailed it. Spellcasters can get ugly in few encounters/day, but Psions get fucking obscene. Far beyond any specific power, Psions lock you into a set encounter/day mechanism to retain balance. Stack this on top of the other complaints..

I think your other complaints are largely overblown, particularly as it seems that you have a rather catch-all approach to allowing material in your game. I have a pretty decent sized library (although I stopped purchasing around the time of Races of Eberron), but it seems like you let everything in your game... except psionics, apparently. But the encounter pacing issue is a legitimate complaint, although I don't think it's as big as you're making it out to be either. If a PC in my campaign isn't using some of the better items in his Bag of Tricks throughout the adventure, rather than just saving up for the end, he's going to have a problem.

I'll fully admit that some of this may just be the players I have. With the groups I've DM'd (many 20-30 people over the years), we always seemed to have a bit of an unspoken "gentlemen's agreement" about stuff that we considered "cheesy." Everyone likes to build some badass characters and play them, but when a PC is too badass, they usually find themselves in a spot that makes them weak soon enough, and then they get killed if they don't recognize it. I've pretty much never had the kinds of cheese you're describing pop up in my games.

[SirNitram]

Also, I don't have a feat called Practiced Manifester in my XPH (or anything equivalent to Practiced Spellcaster... where was that published?

It's from 'Complete Psionic'. While I won't say Overchannel is completely broken and game-breaking, it is there and it is like nothing a sorc or wiz can do.. WHich was the point I was rebutting. So please stay attentive.

I am paying attention... you're just dancing around throwing out a lot of vague allusions to particular issues without explaining why they're a problem. Some of these are apparently non-obvious and involved bringing in feats and powers from multiple books to create problematic balance issues. That's a problem with all classes.

So you're continuing this stupid red herring of attaching any rebuttal I make to any point I was trying to make, with complete disregard for intellectual honesty?

Thanks for reminding me how dishonest shitheads like you are.

Psions having a particular ability that doesn't match up with something wizards/sorcerers can do isn't a reason to call it
broken.

Yet the point that reply was in rebutting was that they could do something no wizard/sorc could do. Shut the fuck up and sit down if you can't read.

Practiced Manifester is broken because it allows further channeling of PP, and thus more nova.

Am I to assume that it pretty much does the same thing as Practiced Spellcaster then? Sounds like a case of copy-paste editing and poorly thought out consequences of translating magic-based feats directly into psionic ones. Raising manifester level raises effective spell level, which is an effect that Practiced Spellcaster avoids. I'll concede that feat is a rather obvious problem as written.

Exactly. There's some rather stupid exploits from it, but this is getting into the minutae that I have to deal with, with my particular players, and doesn't link back to the central problem of the encounter tempo Psi damn near requires.

Nope; XPH didn't fix the obvious Bestow Power loop(Wilder and Torc Of Power Preservation; spend 3, get 4!)

Whoop-dee-doo. That's the game-shattered loop? How is that even a loop? The torc doesn't affect the points transferred by Bestow Power. You're not getting anything for free there that you weren't already getting. (Not to mention that the torc is a late-game item at 36000gp).

No, you really do get 4 for spending three. Repeat as much as you'd like, get an absurd number of PP, nova.

and then they came back with the release of Earth Power(Races of Stone) and Midnight Augmentation(Magic Of Incarnum).

Again, you're adding in material from a zillion different books and expecting it to be balanced. Shit, doesn't Incarnum bring in an entirely new system of magic? (I don't have it.) That's a problem not unique to psionics. Look at something like the Hulking Hurler. Combine it with War Hulk and the rules for improvised weapons and you have madness.

I expect them to not have easily created recursive loops. THen again, it's looking like you're too stupid to grasp why this is a problem.

Illithid Grapple, Affinity Field stupidity(You can get rather nasty recursive loops from it, and even without, a Psion and Cleric coordinating can heal the entire party in battle with this), Bestow Power Loops.. And you shouldn't be surprised I dislike psionics.

Affinity Field the 9th-level power? Wee! Ultimate powerz! You're trying to cram everything into this overly tight constraint for balance at the extreme edges. This is like complaining that Metamagic is broken because of what Epic-level clerics can do with it. [this point was moved out of order to group similar topics in my post]

Hey look, someone who removes context. And only attacks one of the points raised. How many fallacies do you put together when you 'Move out of order to group similar points'?

They've generally abused Psionic Focus-feats until the Big Bad, then nova'd him out of existance. However, most of my ire was at the Bestow Power loops.
<snip>
Pretty much nailed it. Spellcasters can get ugly in few encounters/day, but Psions get fucking obscene. Far beyond any specific power, Psions lock you into a set encounter/day mechanism to retain balance. Stack this on top of the other complaints..

I think your other complaints are largely overblown, particularly as it seems that you have a rather catch-all approach to allowing material in your game. I have a pretty decent sized library (although I stopped purchasing around the time of Races of Eberron), but it seems like you let everything in your game... except psionics, apparently. But the encounter pacing issue is a legitimate complaint, although I don't think it's as big as you're making it out to be either. If a PC in my campaign isn't using some of the better items in his Bag of Tricks throughout the adventure, rather than just saving up for the end, he's going to have a problem.

'I'm too stupid to work out what a recursive loop is, so I'll call it overblown. Then I'll strawman randomly to proclaim you have a vendetta against just psionics. Oh, then I'll declare the central aspect, which I've downplayed desperately, to be legitimate, to try and seem sensible.'

Wow. What a load of crap this was. I can't criticize the myriad combinations for extreme brokeness unless I 'let everything but psionics in'? Stupid, stupid little idiot.

I'll fully admit that some of this may just be the players I have. With the groups I've DM'd (many 20-30 people over the years), we always seemed to have a bit of an unspoken "gentlemen's agreement" about stuff that we considered "cheesy." Everyone likes to build some badass characters and play them, but when a PC is too badass, they usually find themselves in a spot that makes them weak soon enough, and then they get killed if they don't recognize it. I've pretty much never had the kinds of cheese you're describing pop up in my games.

I have. This is even limiting it strictly to mechanics. You should see the whining when someone takes 'Psionics are different', whines for the entire first session that it should be so, then discovers how fucked they are when the DM, who set out a campaign based on magic users, isn't handing similar trinkets to psions(No, sorry. They're Spelljammers, not Psijammers. Hey, you know, if you hadn't bitched me out for hours to demand it be different, you could fly it!).

[Turin]

Nope; XPH didn't fix the obvious Bestow Power loop(Wilder and Torc Of Power Preservation; spend 3, get 4!)

Whoop-dee-doo. That's the game-shattered loop? How is that even a loop? The torc doesn't affect the points transferred by Bestow Power. You're not getting anything for free there that you weren't already getting. (Not to mention that the torc is a late-game item at 36000gp).

I should clarify "doesn't affect." Let's say you're an 11th-level wilder with a torc of power preservation. You wild surge +4 and avoid the 20% chance of being dazed. You manifest Bestow Power on your 11th-level psion ally (two psionic PCs in one party?)

You spend 2PP as a base, transferring 2PP. You spend 8 more PP from your own pool and 4 from the surge for a total of 12. This transfers 8 more to your ally. So you've spent a total of 10PP and your ally has gained 10PP. ZOMG! Broken!

[SirNitram]

Nope; XPH didn't fix the obvious Bestow Power loop(Wilder and Torc Of Power Preservation; spend 3, get 4!)

Whoop-dee-doo. That's the game-shattered loop? How is that even a loop? The torc doesn't affect the points transferred by Bestow Power. You're not getting anything for free there that you weren't already getting. (Not to mention that the torc is a late-game item at 36000gp).

I should clarify "doesn't affect." Let's say you're an 11th-level wilder with a torc of power preservation. You wild surge +4 and avoid the 20% chance of being dazed. You manifest Bestow Power on your 11th-level psion ally (two psionic PCs in one party?)

You spend 2PP as a base, transferring 2PP. You spend 8 more PP from your own pool and 4 from the surge for a total of 12. This transfers 8 more to your ally. So you've spent a total of 10PP and your ally has gained 10PP. ZOMG! Broken!

No, you really can get 4 for an investment of 3. And generally, I've seen it done using Fission or a psicrystal until the rod of the DM nuked the entire city in retaliation(I'm not kind).

It's not as bad as Metamind, though. 'Hi! Every day, you can nova as if you have an infinite number of PP!'

[Turin]

Yet the point that reply was in rebutting was that they could do something no wizard/sorc could do. Shut the fuck up and sit down if you can't read.

You know, I went back and re-read what you were replying to and you're right on that. Mistake, not dishonesty. Apologies.

I expect them to not have easily created recursive loops. THen again, it's looking like you're too stupid to grasp why this is a problem.

You mean the recursive loop you keep insisting exists without providing what it is? You can repeat "4 for 3" all fucking day if you want. I'll gladly concede this whole fucking debate if you can deign yourself to show what the fuck you're talking about instead of just spewing bile.

Hey look, someone who removes context. And only attacks one of the points raised. How many fallacies do you put together when you 'Move out of order to group similar points'?

Don't accuse me of creating a fallacy unless you're prepared to tell me what it is. Don't be a stupid fuck, Nit, you're better than that. I moved together those items that were discussing specific rules or items that you feel are unbalanced. You just keep adding new "oh, and don't forget this," "that's not as bad as this." They're a group of similar topics unrelated to the main concern you keep coming back to about encounter pacing.

'I'm too stupid to work out what a recursive loop is, so I'll call it overblown. Then I'll strawman randomly to proclaim you have a vendetta against just psionics. Oh, then I'll declare the central aspect, which I've downplayed desperately, to be legitimate, to try and seem sensible.'

You asshole. I know what a fucking recursive loop is. I'm still waiting for you to show us one. And yeah, I proclaimed you have a vendetta. You want to show me where that was? Because if its the line where I say "it seems like you let everything in your game... except psionics," then you can blow it out your ass.

I have. This is even limiting it strictly to mechanics. You should see the whining when someone takes 'Psionics are different', whines for the entire first session that it should be so, then discovers how fucked they are when the DM, who set out a campaign based on magic users, isn't handing similar trinkets to psions(No, sorry. They're Spelljammers, not Psijammers. Hey, you know, if you hadn't bitched me out for hours to demand it be different, you could fly it!).

You let them take Psionics is Different? Isn't that, like, The First Big No-No of Psionics? And, ug, that crew sounds terrible.

No, you really can get 4 for an investment of 3. And generally, I've seen it done using Fission or a psicrystal until the rod of the DM nuked the entire city in retaliation(I'm not kind).

Oh you "really" can? "Really?" Care to show me how? Don't play games with me. You said torc and wilder. Fission doesn't help anyway unless it actually works. Psicrystal only works for metaminds anyway, who have abysmal manifester levels.

[Anguirus]

Inappropriate for a 1st level character. Thanks for totally failing to address the point.

1st level characters can use Enlarge Person, and if they are warforged they can get Adamantine Body.

It's not as bad as Metamind, though. 'Hi! Every day, you can nova as if you have an infinite number of PP!'

Metaminds lose 5 manifester levels. They are pathetic parodies of characters. A powergamer wouldn't touch one with a 10-foot pole (standard issue).

[SirNitram]

Yet the point that reply was in rebutting was that they could do something no wizard/sorc could do. Shut the fuck up and sit down if you can't read.

You know, I went back and re-read what you were replying to and you're right on that. Mistake, not dishonesty. Apologies.

Accepted.

I expect them to not have easily created recursive loops. THen again, it's looking like you're too stupid to grasp why this is a problem.

You mean the recursive loop you keep insisting exists without providing what it is? You can repeat "4 for 3" all fucking day if you want. I'll gladly concede this whole fucking debate if you can deign yourself to show what the fuck you're talking about instead of just spewing bile.

And as I go back, it's been fixed since the XPH. Yea, this one's my mistake. But there's still some badly thought out combos which reduce power cost, and thus make Bestow Power recursive.

Hey look, someone who removes context. And only attacks one of the points raised. How many fallacies do you put together when you 'Move out of order to group similar points'?

Don't accuse me of creating a fallacy unless you're prepared to tell me what it is. Don't be a stupid fuck, Nit, you're better than that. I moved together those items that were discussing specific rules or items that you feel are unbalanced. You just keep adding new "oh, and don't forget this," "that's not as bad as this." They're a group of similar topics unrelated to the main concern you keep coming back to about encounter pacing.

The fallacy of singling out Affinity Field's brokenness when it's only part of? It's called Nitpicking. Then again, I expect you won't know what the Illithid Grapple cheese is. It's awesome for flavour, but here's how you break it:

PsiWar. 1st level power Expansion. Human. Take Illithid Heritag, 4x Illithid Grapple, Illithid Extraction. Expand on combat. Grapple. Extract brain, gaining 2d4 PP in exchange for a like amount of INT damage each turn until INT hits zero and opponent dies. Use PP to repeat as needed, or fuel novas.

The worst part? It's so cool to have a dude whose got illithid tentacles for a mouth.

'I'm too stupid to work out what a recursive loop is, so I'll call it overblown. Then I'll strawman randomly to proclaim you have a vendetta against just psionics. Oh, then I'll declare the central aspect, which I've downplayed desperately, to be legitimate, to try and seem sensible.'

You asshole. I know what a fucking recursive loop is. I'm still waiting for you to show us one. And yeah, I proclaimed you have a vendetta. You want to show me where that was? Because if its the line where I say "it seems like you let everything in your game... except psionics," then you can blow it out your ass.

It was that line, and tough luck, you were the one throwing that strawman out, kid. I don't allow everything. But I damn well look at the absurd combos that are unique to psionics, where you can drop the cost of a power, then using Bestow to recursively loop back and gain more.

I have. This is even limiting it strictly to mechanics. You should see the whining when someone takes 'Psionics are different', whines for the entire first session that it should be so, then discovers how fucked they are when the DM, who set out a campaign based on magic users, isn't handing similar trinkets to psions(No, sorry. They're Spelljammers, not Psijammers. Hey, you know, if you hadn't bitched me out for hours to demand it be different, you could fly it!).

You let them take Psionics is Different? Isn't that, like, The First Big No-No of Psionics? And, ug, that crew sounds terrible.

I've thankfully moved beyond them. But yes, this is where I discovered what's broken and what isn't. Specific combos can be splattered, specific powers neutered, but with a group like this, you find out really quick when an entire system hasn't been properly fine-tuned. And Psionics has had that problem since 2nd. I'll openly admit, as I discovered the straightforward Bestow Power loop is no longer working, specific exploits might have been closed. But it still locks into an encounter-day thing that I don't like being handed.

I have been letting some of my hostility to that no-nothing Lance get into the posts with you, so I apologize for any excess vitriol. I can't quite debate someone who proves he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about, then comes back in with an aura of superiority.

[SirNitram]

Inappropriate for a 1st level character. Thanks for totally failing to address the point.

1st level characters can use Enlarge Person, and if they are warforged they can get Adamantine Body.

Enlarge Person can never increase you two size steps. Expansion can. And I don't care if a Warforged can do that; he has to live with being crippled with a constant armour penalty, limited healing, and oh yea, only one campaign setting.

It's not as bad as Metamind, though. 'Hi! Every day, you can nova as if you have an infinite number of PP!'

Metaminds lose 5 manifester levels. They are pathetic parodies of characters. A powergamer wouldn't touch one with a 10-foot pole (standard issue).

The ability to nova with a loss of high level powers(But none in your ability to spend extra PP or increase damage; Practiced Manifester!) is still damn overpowered. I don't care if there's more broken things. Planar Sheppard and Manipulate Form don't make every other broken mechanic acceptable.

[Turin]

I expect them to not have easily created recursive loops. THen again, it's looking like you're too stupid to grasp why this is a problem.

You mean the recursive loop you keep insisting exists without providing what it is? You can repeat "4 for 3" all fucking day if you want. I'll gladly concede this whole fucking debate if you can deign yourself to show what the fuck you're talking about instead of just spewing bile.

And as I go back, it's been fixed since the XPH. Yea, this one's my mistake. But there's still some badly thought out combos which reduce power cost, and thus make Bestow Power recursive.

See, that's the thing. I've been looking for them since we started this discussion, and I'm not finding any. You keep claiming the loops are there.

The closest thing I can come up with is Metamind's font of power combined with fission combined with bestow power, and frankly I'm not convinced whether that would even be allowed, as you manifest without using power points in that case. But that would be a general problem with font of power, not bestow power per se.

Hey look, someone who removes context. And only attacks one of the points raised. How many fallacies do you put together when you 'Move out of order to group similar points'?

Don't accuse me of creating a fallacy unless you're prepared to tell me what it is. Don't be a stupid fuck, Nit, you're better than that. I moved together those items that were discussing specific rules or items that you feel are unbalanced. You just keep adding new "oh, and don't forget this," "that's not as bad as this." They're a group of similar topics unrelated to the main concern you keep coming back to about encounter pacing.

The fallacy of singling out Affinity Field's brokenness when it's only part of? It's called Nitpicking.

I read that sentence as a simple list of things that were broken. It looked to me like you were saying "and this is broken," "and this is broken," "and this is broken." Pulling each item out separately isn't nitpicking in that case.

PsiWar. 1st level power Expansion. Human. Take Illithid Heritag, 4x Illithid Grapple, Illithid Extraction. Expand on combat. Grapple. Extract brain, gaining 2d4 PP in exchange for a like amount of INT damage each turn until INT hits zero and opponent dies. Use PP to repeat as needed, or fuel novas.

Ouch. Is Illithid Grapple a feat or power, just out of curiosity? I tend to get less bent out of shape about "broken" feat combinations, as they require a lot of opportunity cost in the character build (feats aren't cheap, even for fighters).

Then I'll strawman randomly to proclaim you have a vendetta against just psionics.

And yeah, I proclaimed you have a vendetta. You want to show me where that was? Because if its the line where I say "it seems like you let everything in your game... except psionics," then you can blow it out your ass.

It was that line, and tough luck, you were the one throwing that strawman out, kid. I don't allow everything.

Sigh, fine, it was a strawman to say you let in everything. I really didn't intend that literally. But that's not me saying you have "a vendetta against psionics."

But I damn well look at the absurd combos that are unique to psionics, where you can drop the cost of a power, then using Bestow to recursively loop back and gain more.

Sure, you should of course review any material coming into your game. But I still haven't seen any loops.

And Psionics has had that problem since 2nd.

Oh, I remember that. Disintegrate at first level, but it would only work if you made some absurd d20 roll. Russian Roulette. Yuck.

I'll openly admit, as I discovered the straightforward Bestow Power loop is no longer working, specific exploits might have been closed. But it still locks into an encounter-day thing that I don't like being handed.

Obviously the encounter-pacing issue is there. You find it a problem as a DM, I apparently don't mind it. I'm willing to chalk that down to a matter of taste.

I have been letting some of my hostility to that no-nothing Lance get into the posts with you, so I apologize for any excess vitriol. I can't quite debate someone who proves he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about, then comes back in with an aura of superiority.

No problem. This is SDN... if there wasn't some vitriol I'd think there was something wrong.

[edited for quote tags]

[Yogi]

You know, since this is D&D, we can solve this issue with a good old fashioned RUMBLE. One person build a psionic character, the other builds a non-psionic one (both SRD only), and the two fight to see which one is really stronger.

[Erik von Nein]

Ouch. Is Illithid Grapple a feat or power, just out of curiosity? I tend to get less bent out of shape about "broken" feat combinations, as they require a lot of opportunity cost in the character build (feats aren't cheap, even for fighters).

Illithid Grapple is a feat you can take four times, so that's six feats before you can do the thing Nitram's talking about. So, two at first level, one at third, another at sixth and the last at ninth. A ninth level character being good at grappling and killing. I've seen Battle Clerics do similar. Oh, yeah, and afterwards you look like a Mindflayer and can pretty much consider yourself to be evil.

[SirNitram]

PsyWar, Erik. 3 at least level, 3rd Grapple at 2nd, 4th at 3rd, Extraction at 5th.

It is interesting to me that no one's realized all my beef's come from Psi's fundamental mechanic of PP. Since you can manipulate PP, and spend more to nova, that's where the problems come from.

[Erik von Nein]

PsyWar, Erik. 3 at least level, 3rd Grapple at 2nd, 4th at 3rd, Extraction at 5th.

Ah, right. Forgot about the PsiWar's bonus feats. That's pretty cheesy. In any event, if someone went and did that I'd most certainly respond by declaring them obviously evil (not alignment-wise, just that everyone now wants to kill them) and see how well they handle that. Or just ban the Illithid feats in general.

It is interesting to me that no one's realized all my beef's come from Psi's fundamental mechanic of PP. Since you can manipulate PP, and spend more to nova, that's where the problems come from.

No, I got that. I've been playing a game recently with a Psionicist who's supposed to specialize in boom magic and I've seen what it can do. Generally it hasn't broken the game, but it probably helps that it's a both high power game and the person playing it doesn't really play well.

[SirNitram]

PsyWar, Erik. 3 at least level, 3rd Grapple at 2nd, 4th at 3rd, Extraction at 5th.

Ah, right. Forgot about the PsiWar's bonus feats. That's pretty cheesy. In any event, if someone went and did that I'd most certainly respond by declaring them obviously evil (not alignment-wise, just that everyone now wants to kill them) and see how well they handle that. Or just ban the Illithid feats in general.

It annoys me because I've had some awesome ideas revolving around those illithid feats, thematically, but they kinda scream 'BROKEN!' mechanics wise. I feel guilty about a Paladin Inquisitor who can get up to four free grapple checks a round.(You will tell me about the heretics, or I will rip the information from your brain as I digest it!)

It is interesting to me that no one's realized all my beef's come from Psi's fundamental mechanic of PP. Since you can manipulate PP, and spend more to nova, that's where the problems come from.

No, I got that. I've been playing a game recently with a Psionicist who's supposed to specialize in boom magic and I've seen what it can do. Generally it hasn't broken the game, but it probably helps that it's a both high power game and the person playing it doesn't really play well.

Oh, any high power game isn't going to be too hurt. But it can be a giant pain in the ass to balance otherwise.

Until 4th introduces Psis(I see no reason they wouldn't; it's consistantly appeared each time they revised the rules, though 4th is shaping up to actually change a bunch of the core presumptions), I'm sticking with 'Take a sorcerer, file the numbers off' approach. Letting them take from the Psion list also helps, as without the obnoxious augments the powers can often be fairly shiny.

[Darth Raptor]

You know, since this is D&D, we can solve this issue with a good old fashioned RUMBLE. One person build a psionic character, the other builds a non-psionic one (both SRD only), and the two fight to see which one is really stronger.

So if the wizard beats the psion, he loses? Or does the "psionics aren't broken" player have to be the wizard? o.O

[Yogi]

So if the wizard beats the psion, he loses? Or does the "psionics aren't broken" player have to be the wizard? o.O

It depends on the claim.

For example, SirNitram has stated that Psions can do crazy things when they go Nova which makes it hard to DM, while Wizards don't have that problem. Hence, is a Wizard can defeat a Psion in a 1 vs. 1 (which is the ideal time for a Psion to go Nova) consistently, then that particular claim is proven false, at least for that particular character level.

Similarly, he has said that a Psychic Warrior's fist level Biofeedback power is too powerful. Therefore, that particular claim can be tested by facing a first level Psychic Warrior vs. another non-psionic first level character. This will let us see if Psychic Warrior is broken, or at least more broken than non-psionic SRD classes.

[lance]

You know, since this is D&D, we can solve this issue with a good old fashioned RUMBLE. One person build a psionic character, the other builds a non-psionic one (both SRD only), and the two fight to see which one is really stronger.

So if the wizard beats the psion, he loses? Or does the "psionics aren't broken" player have to be the wizard? o.O

Depending on level the wizard may be invincible. Psion wins initiative. Wizard as an immediate action casts a spell that gives him a full round of actions and casts maximized time stop, then spams.

[lance]

PsyWar, Erik. 3 at least level, 3rd Grapple at 2nd, 4th at 3rd, Extraction at 5th.

It is interesting to me that no one's realized all my beef's come from Psi's fundamental mechanic of PP. Since you can manipulate PP, and spend more to nova, that's where the problems come from.

So I take it you don't like the variant spell point system from Unearthed Arcana either. Both systems I feel make more sense than spell slots.
Also often the augmented power will fall short of a base costed power of the same level. For example mindthrust will do 20d6 with an equivalent save. But the 9th level alternative would be dominate monster which instead of damaging the creature makes it your slave. Both are save to negate, and both are mind affecting.

[SirNitram]

PsyWar, Erik. 3 at least level, 3rd Grapple at 2nd, 4th at 3rd, Extraction at 5th.

It is interesting to me that no one's realized all my beef's come from Psi's fundamental mechanic of PP. Since you can manipulate PP, and spend more to nova, that's where the problems come from.

So I take it you don't like the Variant spell point system from Unearthed Arcana either. Both systems I feel make more sense than spell slots.

Vancian works better than magic point systems in the ways TSR and WotC have implemented them. Even with the method used in Netheril: Empire Of Magic in 2nd Ed(Though that lacked feats and PrC's for absurd manipulation, and to be fair, magic is supposed to be uber then). However, better than Vancian I prefer ToB's encounter-based powers, as it lets me maintain balance with arbitrary numbers of encounters per day.

[SirNitram]

So if the wizard beats the psion, he loses? Or does the "psionics aren't broken" player have to be the wizard? o.O

It depends on the claim.

For example, SirNitram has stated that Psions can do crazy things when they go Nova which makes it hard to DM, while Wizards don't have that problem. Hence, is a Wizard can defeat a Psion in a 1 vs. 1 (which is the ideal time for a Psion to go Nova) consistently, then that particular claim is proven false, at least for that particular character level.

Similarly, he has said that a Psychic Warrior's fist level Biofeedback power is too powerful. Therefore, that particular claim can be tested by facing a first level Psychic Warrior vs. another non-psionic first level character. This will let us see if Psychic Warrior is broken, or at least more broken than non-psionic SRD classes.

A rather flawed methodology, as it only answers the question of whether the classs are unbalanced when fighting each other. Not, say, going on a campaign not specifically tweaked for psionics. In short, it's designed to fail.

[lance]

I said they could do about as much. Not that they would be doing the same thing or that they would necessarily do the same.
How about Arcane Thesis, Sudden Metamagic, Practical Metamagic, Easy metamagic,

How about Bestow Power loops for infinite PP?

So is Arcane thesis and the rest of the metamagic reducing feats, or free metamagic feats like overchannel enough for you or not? The Bestow power loop was a red herring to what I was replying to. It was also debunked too.

and of course, that insane wording of Practiced Manifester.

What is so bad about it?

If you don't have the brainpower to work it out, your DM is lucky.

You take it and you can manifest powers like a psion 4 levels higher than what you actually are. Increasing DCs by 2 for certain powers often, but not having as much PP so you burn out faster, and your powers are 2 levels lower so they aren't as good, and you have fewer of them. Also it only allows for you to go up to your character level so it is only useful if you lost Manifester levels due to multi classing. Did I miss anything?

Psionics is balanced.. Under a pre-determined number of encounters per day. If you don't use that many, it will not balance out.

How is this more unbalanced than the sorceror spamming his top 2 spell slots on each encounter?

He can't channel the rest of his slots into ramping those two spells even higher.

No, but unlike psionics many of his spells autoscale. He also has access to various free metamagic effects, such as Arcane thesis, suddens and metamagic rods. A sudden maximized+empowered shivering touch is going to drop pretty much any creature it hits. How many creatures have a dex in the 21-27 range?

This is without, of course, the insane shit: The time control power loops, the infinite power point recursions, and other shit. This is with the normal stuff.

Which Magic has had access to since the beginning.

Really? Show me the spell that lets you create a respawn point with your familiar. Because it can be done with a psicrystal.

How is your PsiCrystal doing this? For a Familiar cast shape change on your familiar, with your share spells ability, into a Zodar. If you die have the familiar wish you back to life. Magic obviously doesn't have Infinite power point recursions, but it can spam wishes through noble efreet and scrolls of gate. Gate a Nobe Efreet, Use your first 2 wishes on scrolls of gate and your third on cash or to modify a magic item.

[SirNitram]

So in short, lance, you will continue to desperately nitpick and evade the central point, even when I spelt it out for your reduced intellect. I don't trust your appraisal of what is possible with psionics, though. It comes from you not knowing what the fuck Overchannel does, when it's one of the most popular psi-feats I've come across(The other being the ones which add damage dice to ranged attacks when you expend your focus. Because every Warlock needs more damage dice.).

[lance]

So if the wizard beats the psion, he loses? Or does the "psionics aren't broken" player have to be the wizard? o.O

It depends on the claim.

For example, SirNitram has stated that Psions can do crazy things when they go Nova which makes it hard to DM, while Wizards don't have that problem. Hence, is a Wizard can defeat a Psion in a 1 vs. 1 (which is the ideal time for a Psion to go Nova) consistently, then that particular claim is proven false, at least for that particular character level.

Similarly, he has said that a Psychic Warrior's fist level Biofeedback power is too powerful. Therefore, that particular claim can be tested by facing a first level Psychic Warrior vs. another non-psionic first level character. This will let us see if Psychic Warrior is broken, or at least more broken than non-psionic SRD classes.

A rather flawed methodology, as it only answers the question of whether the classs are unbalanced when fighting each other. Not, say, going on a campaign not specifically tweaked for psionics. In short, it's designed to fail.

You could do a gauntlet through several encounters. Like have them fight a CR level+3 then have them fight 6 CR level -2 and then 4 CR level equivalent encounters.

[SirNitram]

You could do a gauntlet through several encounters. Like have them fight a CR level+3 then have them fight 6 CR level -2 and then 4 CR level equivalent encounters.

I have tried a number of so-called 'acid tests', but ultimately, they don't give you the experience that running a full campaign will. I have run campaigns with folks who will weasel every ounce out of a build they can, and psionics have approached the level that an unsupervised Druid can.

The question is not whether a full-splat wizard can take a full-splat psion. The question is which one gets more obscene within the norm for the DM. The two Psi corebooks cause alot more chaos than I prefer to deal with unless I'm doing a high level game.

[lance]

So in short, lance, you will continue to desperately nitpick and evade the central point, even when I spelt it out for your reduced intellect.

I believe the central point is that you don't like psionics due to that they can nova. You like spell casters better because they don't nova as well, excepting things like sudden maximize on shivering touch. Or Divine Metamagic. Or Metamagic rods. So the psionics novas are part of its manifesting system and, until 9th level spells, magic's nova making ability, while being littered every where is not innate with the system itself.

I don't trust your appraisal of what is possible with psionics, though. It comes from you not knowing what the fuck Overchannel does, when it's one of the most popular psi-feats I've come across(The other being the ones which add damage dice to ranged attacks when you expend your focus. Because every Warlock needs more damage dice.).

Where did I not know what overchannel does? Was it the nitpick over effective manifester versus actual manifester level? Or what? Or do you feel the ability to deal and extra 3 die of damage to not be comparable to dealing an extra 50% damage? Or maximized die. Or having a 2 higher caster level with one spell along with they ability to apply free metamagic to said spell.