Pope: Atheism to blame for "greatest forms of cruelty&q

[wautd]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071130/wl_ ... yclical_dc

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope Benedict, in an encyclical released on Friday, said atheism was responsible for some of the "greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice" in history.


The 75-page "Spe Salvi," which takes its Latin title from a quote by St Paul (in hope we were saved), is an appeal to a pessimistic world to find strength in Christian hope.

In the second encyclical of his papacy, Benedict urges Christians to put their hope for the future in God and not in technology, wealth or political ideologies.

Atheism could be regarded by some as a "type of moralism," particularly in the 19th and 20th centuries, to protest against the injustices of the world and world history, he said.

Reciting arguments made by atheists, he said: "A world marked by so much injustice, innocent suffering and cynicism of power cannot be the work of a good God. A God with responsibility for such a world would not be a just God, much less a good God."

History has proven wrong ideologies such as Marxism which say humans had to establish social justice because God did not exist, the Pope wrote.

"It is no accident that this idea has led to the greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice," the Pope said. Such a concept was grounded in "intrinsic falsity."

Marxism, the Pope wrote, had left behind "a trail of appalling destruction" because it failed to realize that man could not be "merely the product of economic conditions."

ATHEISTS REACT

The encyclical is the highest form of papal writing and addresses all members of the Church. This document is written in a highly academic, professorial style in which the Pope quotes saints, philosophers and writers to make his point.

Atheism has been a hot topic recently thanks to best-selling books questioning the value of religion such as "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins and "God is Not Great" by Christopher Hitchens.

The Pope seemed to be addressing the fresh interest in atheism in the developed world with phrases such as: "Let us put it very simply: man needs God, otherwise he remains without hope."

Italy's Union of Atheists, Agnostics and Rationalists (UAAR) said by taking such stands the Pope would push more people away from the Church.

"The existence of a billion non-believers in the world should be enough to make the Pope understand that man can live very well without God, but with reason," a statement said.

The Pope urged Christians to put their hope for a better future in God.

"We have all witnessed the way in which progress, in the wrong hands, can become and has indeed become a terrifying progress in evil. If technical progress is not matched by corresponding progress in man's ethical formation, in man's inner growth, then it is not progress at all, but a threat for man and for the world," he said.

Christian hope also meant protecting the planet, even if people felt powerless to make changes in their lifetimes, he said.

"We can free our life and the world from the poisons and contaminations that could destroy the present and the future. We can uncover the sources of creation and keep them unsullied, and in this way we can make a right use of creation, which comes to us as a gift..." he said.

Nice to see the Church still holds their fine tradition of hypocrisy

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The Pope marketing Catholicism is not terribly newsworthy, however, it's sort of like a cigarette shop saying not smoking destroys your social life.

[DavidEC]

Just how on Earth do you engage this? Does the Pope do public debates?

[FSTargetDrone]

Just how on Earth do you engage this? Does the Pope do public debates?

Ah, the words "Pope" and "debate" (of what he says, at least) don't really fit together in any sense at all.

[The Guid]

The Pope seemed to be addressing the fresh interest in atheism in the developed world with phrases such as: "Let us put it very simply: man needs God, otherwise he remains without hope."

Hope for what? I don't need "hope" in my own life, I live it how I want to live it. For those who are unable to do that they need solutions and help on this realm not some idiot in charge of a multimillion pound industry telling him to wait until he's not breathing anymore to be happy.

[NetKnight]

This statment could actually have a good effect. The last pope's percieved status as a 'nice guy', or whatnot made freethinker attacks against him and his policies look overly 'radical' to anyone infected with the golden-mean brain bug. By making himself a much more pronouncedly reactionary-looking leader, the current pope is giving such attacks much more 'respectablility'. His positions also serve to alienate liberal Christains, including a large wing of the Church, from such conseritive policies. You go, Pope!

[Darth Wong]

The irony of this statement coming from a man who fronts an institution which once published an instruction manual for torture is so thick you can cut it with a knife. Not that devout Catholics have a problem with hypocrisy and lies; their entire religious tradition is steeped in it.

[DavidEC]

NetKnight, the trouble is that two vast swathes of people exist: a) the sort who already and wholeheartedly accept the logic that atheism = immorality. b) the sort (not necessarily Catholic, Christian, or even that religious) who perhaps haven't given any thought to the subject, but will find the Pope's link between communist atrocities and atheism a valid point. They won't consider the finer details of how atheism slots into those ideologies or those historical periods and how it's really a hanger-on and peripheral component of said beliefs, and consequently how ascribing the crimes directly to atheism is just bollocks.

Ah, the words "Pope" and "debate" (of what he says, at least) don't really fit together in any sense at all.

Upon a proper definition of 'debate', oh of course it's more absurd than 'tasty McDonalds'. However, I'm thinking whether or not he even does press conferences with questions from the floor? I'm genuinely ignorant of the subject.

[Darth Wong]

The Christian tradition is intrinsically hostile to debate. The whole faith itself is based upon appeals to authority, starting with God himself, moving down to his anointed prophets and priesthoods, and finally to the organizations they created. Shit flows down in this hierarchy, not up.

The whole point of having a Pope is to create an authority whose word is final, much like the Supreme Court for the legal system in the United States. So no, you can't debate him and he would not deign to answer questions. He speaks, you listen. That's how Catholicism works.

[Zixinus]

Wow. The Pope made a statement that atheists are evil. The fact that there are more and more atheists coming out of the woodwork, must have nothing to do with that. For him, this must be nothing but a minor issue he lazily addressed.

[/sarcasm]

[Admiral Valdemar]

I hear the RCC isn't a fan of the First World any more. It's far worthy of their time going to Third World shit holes where people routinely suffer despicable living conditions, mad gunmen and tyrants. Annoyingly, progressive people are less open to færy tale cults.

[DavidEC]

I was thinking less of genuine debate and more of official Catholic organs holding press conferences as a facade of modernity, a bit like the ten commandments of driving.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Annoyingly, progressive people are less open to færy tale cults.

Heck yeah, just look at the elite of the greatest, the most advanced and most powerful Western country in the world! Er, then again, Leadership is overrated... .

They won't consider the finer details of how atheism slots into those ideologies or those historical periods and how it's really a hanger-on and peripheral component of said beliefs, and consequently how ascribing the crimes directly to atheism is just bollocks.

An excellent point, I'll need to use that more strongly in the future as opposed to the whole "Hitler, Stalin were raised religious, and Hitler was a strongly believing Christian" thing.

[Terralthra]

Another way to look at it is that in the Soviet Union, the State was venerated practically to godhood any way. I mean, sure, it espoused atheism, but in any sort of real sense, the suppression of religion was because they represented competing interests.

[DavidEC]

Death, Stalin was not the only communist who did nasty things, and nor did he do them by himself.

The peripheral component statement refers to atheism not being a driving characteristic of communism (in contrast to collective ownership of resources, for one example). There are multiple pro-atheist levels to the matter - consider the frenzied cult of personalities infecting many communist states and which can hardly be called rational - and they are essential to refuting the communism=atheism association as comprehensively as possible.

[General Zod]

Another way to look at it is that in the Soviet Union, the State was venerated practically to godhood any way. I mean, sure, it espoused atheism, but in any sort of real sense, the suppression of religion was because they represented competing interests.

North Korea and China are probably better examples of their leaders developing personality cults and effectively becoming living gods among their people.

[Terralthra]

Another way to look at it is that in the Soviet Union, the State was venerated practically to godhood any way. I mean, sure, it espoused atheism, but in any sort of real sense, the suppression of religion was because they represented competing interests.

North Korea and China are probably better examples of their leaders developing personality cults and effectively becoming living gods among their people.

Freely granted. In my opinion, Stalin was not as interested in self-elevation to godhood as he was interested in raising the Party/State to that status.

[DavidEC]

I think you're right with regards to 1924-9, where he tried (like everyone else) to show himself as the true heir to Lenin and Bolshevik principles; however, from '29 onwards, and especially from 1945, a lot of the artwork, for example seems to shift from depicting him as Lenin's disciple and as a true Party man to someone more aloof and godlike. I should get some galleries.

Regardless, this irrational elevation to godhood of either a man or the Party/State cannot be called atheistic. The fact that it appears again and again in Kim, Mao, Ceausescu and so on shows underlying hypocrisies in communism's (or historical manifestations of it) claim to atheism.

[Molyneux]

The irony of this statement coming from a man who fronts an institution which once published an instruction manual for torture is so thick you can cut it with a knife. Not that devout Catholics have a problem with hypocrisy and lies; their entire religious tradition is steeped in it.

...huh. Hadn't heard that one...
Do you know the title offhand, by any chance?

Incidentally - what is the proper way to address a Pope? "Your Eminence", or some reverent junk like that?

[DPDarkPrimus]

Another way to look at it is that in the Soviet Union, the State was venerated practically to godhood any way. I mean, sure, it espoused atheism, but in any sort of real sense, the suppression of religion was because they represented competing interests.

One strength of the Communist system ... is that it has some of the characteristics of a religion and inspires the emotions of a religion.
-- Albert Einstein

[Gandalf]

The irony of this statement coming from a man who fronts an institution which once published an instruction manual for torture is so thick you can cut it with a knife. Not that devout Catholics have a problem with hypocrisy and lies; their entire religious tradition is steeped in it.

...huh. Hadn't heard that one...
Do you know the title offhand, by any chance?

I believe he might be referring to the Malleus Maleficarum. It was a manual for witch hunting. From identifying them, to "interrogation", to trials.

Incidentally - what is the proper way to address a Pope? "Your Eminence", or some reverent junk like that?

I believe it's "Your holiness".

[Tanasinn]

This is hilarious, coming from the former nazi youth leader of one of the bloodiest organizations still around today.

[Molyneux]

The irony of this statement coming from a man who fronts an institution which once published an instruction manual for torture is so thick you can cut it with a knife. Not that devout Catholics have a problem with hypocrisy and lies; their entire religious tradition is steeped in it.

...huh. Hadn't heard that one...
Do you know the title offhand, by any chance?

I believe he might be referring to the Malleus Maleficarum. It was a manual for witch hunting. From identifying them, to "interrogation", to trials.

Incidentally - what is the proper way to address a Pope? "Your Eminence", or some reverent junk like that?

I believe it's "Your holiness".

Thanks.
In that case:

Your holiness - you can take that funny had and stick it sideways up your ass, you scion of a mass-murdering, child-raping, plague-spreading, psychpathic Church.

[Molyneux]

(Damn. ghetto edit: Take that funny HAT. Not had.)

[Superman]

What's up with this shithead pope anyway? Did the last pope ever say anything like this about atheists?