D&D psionics

[Yogi]

A rather flawed methodology, as it only answers the question of whether the classs are unbalanced when fighting each other. Not, say, going on a campaign not specifically tweaked for psionics. In short, it's designed to fail.

In that case, we could have both classes face a series of encounters with CR equal to their level (completely refreshing them between encounters) which should represent a single tough battle, as opposed to the four easier battles that the classes are supposedly balanced around. For simplicities sake, three battles should be plenty, one with a horde of weaker creatures, one with a single tough monster, and one with an NPC with class levels.

Of course, if you're playing a Psion, you'll usually be hiding behind a big strong Fighter-type. In such a case, both sides will get Dan the Meatshield, a fighter of the same level, which more realistically portrays your average D&D campaign. Short of actually playing a campaign, this is quite reasonable for a test, and a heck of a lot more effective than just talking.


PS. This also assumes the DM is not an idiot and will close any obvious loopholes, such as the Candle of Invocation --> Gate Noble Djinn -> Wish for a Candle of Invocation x3 --> Cheese.

[Civil War Man]

I remember once drawing up a 1st level Psychic warrior character, considered playing it in a D&D campaign (Dark Sun setting, 3.5 rules). He was actually vaguely based off of a WoD Werewolf, in that if you didn't kill him first round, he'd come at you about 3 feet taller and slicing at you with claws that do as much damage as greatswords. That was first level.

Ended up playing with what eventually became my Rogue/Spymaster/Assassin character, though. Definitely someone you want to have high Sense Motive ranks before facing (of course, being Dark Sun the DM gave all non-psionic characters 1 free power. I got Distract, which gives a target a -4 penalty on Wisdom based skills). Oh, the Sneak Attack damage...

[Turin]

It is interesting to me that no one's realized all my beef's come from Psi's fundamental mechanic of PP. Since you can manipulate PP, and spend more to nova, that's where the problems come from.
<snip>
Until 4th introduces Psis(I see no reason they wouldn't; it's consistantly appeared each time they revised the rules, though 4th is shaping up to actually change a bunch of the core presumptions), I'm sticking with 'Take a sorcerer, file the numbers off' approach. Letting them take from the Psion list also helps, as without the obnoxious augments the powers can often be fairly shiny.

Well, sure, PP is the whole basis of the encounter-pacing problem. Your solution is pretty simple, however. You could really solve the bulk of the problems of the psionic classes just by replacing PP with spell slots a la the sorceror. You could keep virtually everything else and that would make for a marked improvement.

A couple of powers have to get thrown out because they don't work with slots, but who cares? You'll still have a few specific powers or feats that are problematic, but you deal with those the same way you would problematic non-psionic feats or spells.

[Imperial Overlord]

A few points

1) Dire Charge combines a charge and a full attack. It is brutal. If a variant barbarian gets a similar ability before epic level, well that's powerful as well. Psionic Lion's Charge allows the combination charge and full attack and buffing the attacks all in one go. If you don't understand why that is extremely powerful, you're either stupid or a munchkin. Or both.

2) Acrane Thesis is limited to a single spell, which overchannel and metapsionic feats are not. As for metamagic rods, they are widely acknowledged to be extremely powerful and abusable.

3) The power point system is badly abusable, even without the extremely nasty recursive loops.

I'm with Nitram on the switch to a "per encounter basis". As it stands the Vancian system does work best with current D&D systems, because the whole system is set up along those lines with mostly at will abilities (attacks, sneak attacks, variant attack feats) and per day abilities (spells, smites, healing touches). The psi point system gives superior choice to a caster (which a spell point system does as well) and is inherently superior and thus unbalanced.

[Anguirus]

Enlarge Person can never increase you two size steps. Expansion can.

Not at first level. And if DR is actually unbalanced at first level, all those other warforged drawbacks are irrelevant. Hell, I think warforged are still one of the strongest LA 0 races, and they are core as of MM3.

And while Practiced Manifester is possibly the only way to use a metamind, they are still not broken. If anything, they are broken the other way...weak as shit. Their signature power only comes at the highest levels of the game, and by then, infinite PP for one encounter actually is not a big deal. Having one 8th level and no 9th level powers? That may not be as big a deal as 8th and 9th level spells, but it is a no-brainer over what the metamind actually gets.

[lance]

A few points

1) Dire Charge combines a charge and a full attack. It is brutal. If a variant barbarian gets a similar ability before epic level, well that's powerful as well. Psionic Lion's Charge allows the combination charge and full attack and buffing the attacks all in one go. If you don't understand why that is extremely powerful, you're either stupid or a munchkin. Or both.

I understand that it is powerful, I merely don't think that it is broken. A charge will often destroy what ever is on they other end. Adding additional attacks with a small boost is just going to make the thing on the receiving end more dead.

2) Acrane Thesis is limited to a single spell, which overchannel and metapsionic feats are not. As for metamagic rods, they are widely acknowledged to be extremely powerful and abusable.

Your forgeting sudden feats, and while Arcane thesis is more limited than overchannel it is vastly more powerful for that one spell. At eighth level overchannel will essentially add 1 the DC and/or 2 die of damage, arcane thesis will add 2 die of damage and allow for an energy admixtured empowered lightning bolt, or a chained suggestion. At 15th the overchannel is adding a whopping 3die of damage and increasing the dc by 1 or 2. So instead of dealing 15d6+15 of damage it would be dealing 18d6+18 avg 81. Lets add empower and maximize to this it would deal 6d6+90 avg 111. It has enough PP to keep this up for 11 rounds.

The arcane thesis is now allowing the lightning bolts to be thrown at 10d6+120 avg 155 damage due to being empowered, maximized and energy admixtered, and a feat that adds stunning and knockdown to lighting spells.

Or it could of been on an orb of acid with substitution to electricity, energy admixture, empower, maximize, and the feat that adds stunning to electricity spells, for 15d6+180 avg 232.5 with its 8th level spell slot. It only gets one of those so it's time for 2 rounds of 7th level would be dealing 180 damage. Its 6th would be 3 rounds of 44d6 avg 154. The wizards fifth level spell slots would be doing 30d6 damage for a 105 point average for 4 rounds and the psion finally starts to deal more damage to bad its down by about 380 points at this point. After these slots are burned through the psion closes the gap to about 350. For the fourth level slots the wizard is now doing 90 damage for the rest of his orbs. Which would mean that the psion would be catching up if it wasn't for him running out of power points in the eleventh round. So the psion does 1221 to the wizards 1834. The psion also did less for the first 6 rounds.
So while the psion could use Overchannel on more things, Arcane thesis will blow it out of the water if it came down to a situation where the thesis applied. And while it would be doubtful that a wizard would prep his top and middle spell slots it is a simplified comparsion.
Also metapsionic feats would be a direct metamagic analog.

3) The power point system is badly abusable, even without the extremely nasty recursive loops.

Well aparently the Nitram was wrong on the recursive loop, so you just have the nova versus 2 encounters a day, which if a wizard or sorceror chooses his feats correctly can pull off also.

I'm with Nitram on the switch to a "per encounter basis". As it stands the Vancian system does work best with current D&D systems, because the whole system is set up along those lines with mostly at will abilities (attacks, sneak attacks, variant attack feats) and per day abilities (spells, smites, healing touches). The psi point system gives superior choice to a caster (which a spell point system does as well) and is inherently superior and thus unbalanced.

They pp system may be unbalanced, but it also actually makes sense compared to the Vancian system. I don't think that psions going nova is going to be hugely different compared to a wizard or sorceror going nova. A psion has enough base pp at 20th level for 18 fully augmented spells. A wizard is going to have 12 slots of his 7-9 level open to him. A sorceror is going to have 18 of 7-9. And they can deal comparable damage with those slots.

[SirNitram]

I was wrong on the torc loop, lance. You're free to discount any of the others.

And as for the 'WARFORGED HAVE IT!!!!!!', there's alot of supremely broken shit in Eberron, which is why I DM Forgotten Realms. Planar Sheppard, for example.

[lance]

I was wrong on the torc loop, lance. You're free to discount any of the others.

I believe I had a response to every point you made. Your main point is that psions can burn all their points in a "nova effect" I have presented evidence that this so called nova may come up short.

And as for the 'WARFORGED HAVE IT!!!!!!', there's alot of supremely broken shit in Eberron, which is why I DM Forgotten Realms. Planar Sheppard, for example.

You haven't proved DR 2 is broken. It can be gotten with a feat- roll with it. A feat that can be taken more than once and stacks with itself.
You apparently have rose tinted glasses when it comes to campaign settings also. Incantatrix, greenbound summoning, manipulate forms ability for examples.

[SirNitram]

I was wrong on the torc loop, lance. You're free to discount any of the others.

I believe I had a response to every point you made. Your main point is that psions can burn all their points in a "nova effect" I have presented evidence that this so called nova may come up short.

You may believe that, but you're full of shit. My main point is that the mechanic is unbalancing at it's core; the nova-effect is one aspect of this, but only someone so ill-informed on the topic as to steadfastly declare Overchannel didn't do what it does would believe that's all.

And as for the 'WARFORGED HAVE IT!!!!!!', there's alot of supremely broken shit in Eberron, which is why I DM Forgotten Realms. Planar Sheppard, for example.

You haven't proved DR 2 is broken. It can be gotten with a feat- roll with it. A feat that can be taken more than once and stacks with itself.
You apparently have rose tinted glasses when it comes to campaign settings also. Incantatrix, greenbound summoning, manipulate forms ability for examples.

Manipulate Form? Oh, you mean the power for a supremely rare monster race that has been dying out since before Netheril?

That the Manipulate Form you mean? Wow, you can look up shit from the Optimization Boards. Idiot.

[Anguirus]

And as for the 'WARFORGED HAVE IT!!!!!!', there's alot of supremely broken shit in Eberron, which is why I DM Forgotten Realms. Planar Sheppard, for example.

Did you just compare a powerful race that can take a powerful feat (though both become increasingly irrelevant while leveling up) to a PrC that can pick up any ability from any monster in the game?

And those are your only two examples of broken Eberron stuff?

I don't think Eberron is inherently broken, I just think Faiths of Eberron was a terrible book.

At any rate, the POINT is that you moved the goalposts. You complained that psions getting 10 foot reach at first level is broken. It was shown that any wizard (and some clerics) can trivially do the same, as can any schmuck with a glaive. So then you complained that expansion can EVENTUALLY be augmented to Huge. Not happening at first level.

You complained that DR at first level is broken. But I've played in games with Adamantine warforged and it's really not, even when they DON'T have to spend the equivalent of a first level spell to do it. So then you started complaining that EBERRON is broken, and you brought up the Planar Shepherd as evidence! Sorry, you are having the wrong conversation! I don't give a crap that you play in FR.

On the other hand, any 1st level wizard can fry a whole encounter once, twice, or even three times a day with a little luck, and any 1st level cleric can fry small armies of skeletons on Round 1. No one's complaining that that's broken, even though it's obviously far more effective than DR or reach.

[lance]

I was wrong on the torc loop, lance. You're free to discount any of the others.

I believe I had a response to every point you made. Your main point is that psions can burn all their points in a "nova effect" I have presented evidence that this so called nova may come up short.

You may believe that, but you're full of shit. My main point is that the mechanic is unbalancing at it's core; the nova-effect is one aspect of this,

My understanding was that the nova ability was the major one.

but only someone so ill-informed on the topic as to steadfastly declare Overchannel didn't do what it does would believe that's all.

Where did I declare that over channel did not do what it does?

And as for the 'WARFORGED HAVE IT!!!!!!', there's alot of supremely broken shit in Eberron, which is why I DM Forgotten Realms. Planar Sheppard, for example.

You haven't proved DR 2 is broken. It can be gotten with a feat- roll with it. A feat that can be taken more than once and stacks with itself.
You apparently have rose tinted glasses when it comes to campaign settings also. Incantatrix, greenbound summoning, manipulate forms ability for examples.

Manipulate Form? Oh, you mean the power for a supremely rare monster race that has been dying out since before Netheril?

That the Manipulate Form you mean? Wow, you can look up shit from the Optimization Boards. Idiot.

Yes that manipulate form. The one that allows for pun-pun.

[Turin]

I was wrong on the torc loop, lance. You're free to discount any of the others.

I believe I had a response to every point you made. Your main point is that psions can burn all their points in a "nova effect" I have presented evidence that this so called nova may come up short.

You may believe that, but you're full of shit. My main point is that the mechanic is unbalancing at it's core; the nova-effect is one aspect of this, but only someone so ill-informed on the topic as to steadfastly declare Overchannel didn't do what it does would believe that's all.

Lance, the specific problems of things like Overchannel are not at issue. The fundamental analysis breaks down like this: take a 12th-level psion and a 12th-level wizard (I hate using 20th-level PCs as examples, because they're on the fringe of play), each with 18 Int.

The psion has 126+24 = 150PP and access to 6th-level powers.
The wizard has spell slots of 4/5/5/5/4/3/2 (=73 spell-levels) and access to 6th-level spells. Since 1 spell level is roughly equal to 2PP, sounds roughly balanced on the face of it, right?

Except that the psion can turn his 150PP into the equivalent of 13 6th-level powers, compared to the wizards 2. The wizard's spells scale, of course, but:
1. None of them scale in DC (more important than damage scaling for many types of powers); the psions powers do.
2. All of them have caps; the psions powers do not. All the low-level wizard spells are designed to cap at 5th-level!
3. The psion can decide not to blow all his wad in one go, using just enough power at any time to be useful; the wizard is stuck with his slots.

Now, as I've argued above, I haven't discovered this to be an insurmountable balance problem in my games, but it seems clear that this is a result of the specific kinds of campaigns I run and the specific kinds of players I have. If you're going to argue that it is not fundamentally unbalanced, Lance, you need to address these core issues of the mechanic, not "hey this little spell here and hey this specific power there."

[Anguirus]

I actually agree that a well-built psion can compete or exceed the wizard in damage-dealing (though they are screwed by stuff like minor globe of invulnerability). However, I find the wizard superior in the realms of buffing and save-or-dies, which are arguably better things to be good at. A wizard is also far more versatile, since psions have to specialize.

The psi system is better on the surface but the designers realized that from the get-go and limited psions in other was. The specific spells and powers that each class has access to ARE part of the balance equation.

Psions are better than sorcerers most of the time, but sorcerers suck.

[lance]

I believe I had a response to every point you made. Your main point is that psions can burn all their points in a "nova effect" I have presented evidence that this so called nova may come up short.

You may believe that, but you're full of shit. My main point is that the mechanic is unbalancing at it's core; the nova-effect is one aspect of this, but only someone so ill-informed on the topic as to steadfastly declare Overchannel didn't do what it does would believe that's all.

Lance, the specific problems of things like Overchannel are not at issue. The fundamental analysis breaks down like this: take a 12th-level psion and a 12th-level wizard (I hate using 20th-level PCs as examples, because they're on the fringe of play), each with 18 Int.

The psion has 126+24 = 150PP and access to 6th-level powers.
The wizard has spell slots of 4/5/5/5/4/3/2 (=73 spell-levels) and access to 6th-level spells. Since 1 spell level is roughly equal to 2PP, sounds roughly balanced on the face of it, right?

Sounds about right. Except the intelligence would likely be 24 for both of them due to +6 headband

Except that the psion can turn his 150PP into the equivalent of 13 6th-level powers, compared to the wizards 2. The wizard's spells scale, of course, but:
1. None of them scale in DC (more important than damage scaling for many types of powers); the psions powers do.

Which is why the lower spell slots should be filled with things that don't allow a save such as alter self, solid fog, ray of enfeeblement, evards black tentacles or fly, as the wizard levels up. Also wizard can easily cast spells like enlarge person, haste or polymorph on the tank to increase his effectiveness. Which is something that psions either can't do at all or do so poorly.

2. All of them have caps; the psions powers do not. All the low-level wizard spells are designed to cap at 5th-level!

Very few wizard spells actually cap at 5th level. Burning hands is they only one that I can think of in fact. Also the psion is paying for the increase. The wizard is getting it for free.

3. The psion can decide not to blow all his wad in one go, using just enough power at any time to be useful; the wizard is stuck with his slots.

At which point the wizards spell slots will come to be equal or more powerful in comparision. When the wizard uses a 1st level slot on fireball he does 5d4+5, when the psion uses his 1pp on a power it does 1d6+1. The psion is only going to have any edge if he is using his highest level powers.

Now, as I've argued above, I haven't discovered this to be an insurmountable balance problem in my games, but it seems clear that this is a result of the specific kinds of campaigns I run and the specific kinds of players I have. If you're going to argue that it is not fundamentally unbalanced, Lance, you need to address these core issues of the mechanic, not "hey this little spell here and hey this specific power there."

Unfortunantly your method fails to take into account that a psions powers may be inferior to a wizards. Like Fly for an example for wizards it is a 3rd level spell, for psions it is a 4th level nomad power. Or for metamorphises greater which has a minute per level duration unless your in a form of an object and costs 200xp versus shapechange which has a flat 10 minutes per level duration and you need a focus that costs 1,500gp.

[Turin]

The fundamental analysis breaks down like this: take a 12th-level psion and a 12th-level wizard (I hate using 20th-level PCs as examples, because they're on the fringe of play), each with 18 Int.
The psion has 126+24 = 150PP and access to 6th-level powers.
The wizard has spell slots of 4/5/5/5/4/3/2 (=73 spell-levels) and access to 6th-level spells. Since 1 spell level is roughly equal to 2PP, sounds roughly balanced on the face of it, right?

Sounds about right. Except the intelligence would likely be 24 for both of them due to +6 headband

1. That's a stupid nitpick.
2. It only makes things worse as it gives the psion more PP to play with.
3. That item represents almost half of the expected wealth of a PC of that level, which doesn't happen in campaign play.

1. None of them scale in DC (more important than damage scaling for many types of powers); the psions powers do.

Which is why the lower spell slots should be filled with things that don't allow a save such as alter self, solid fog, ray of enfeeblement, evards black tentacles or fly, as the wizard levels up. Also wizard can easily cast spells like enlarge person, haste or polymorph on the tank to increase his effectiveness. Which is something that psions either can't do at all or do so poorly.

And you think that, say, the use of 2 3rd-level utility spells adds up to the equivalent of a 6th-level spell... why? I mean, sure, in terms of outside-of-combat flexibility. But no one is arguing about that. If the wizard wants to be flexible outside of combat, he's forcing himself to limit his total offensive output, particularly in the use of the lower-level spells you claim allows him to bridge the combat gap with the psion.

2. All of them have caps; the psions powers do not. All the low-level wizard spells are designed to cap at 5th-level!

Very few wizard spells actually cap at 5th level. Burning hands is they only one that I can think of in fact. Also the psion is paying for the increase. The wizard is getting it for free.

Almost all damaging spells of 1st and 2nd level cap at 5th. The only example I can think of that doesn't is scorching ray, which is a little overpowered for its level anyway. Spells that do not do damage are inherently capped by their low DCs.

3. The psion can decide not to blow all his wad in one go, using just enough power at any time to be useful; the wizard is stuck with his slots.

At which point the wizards spell slots will come to be equal or more powerful in comparision. When the wizard uses a 1st level slot on fireball he does 5d4+5, when the psion uses his 1pp on a power it does 1d6+1. The psion is only going to have any edge if he is using his highest level powers.

And do you think that 5d4+5 is an even marginally significant use of a wizard's power at the levels we're discussing?

Now, as I've argued above, I haven't discovered this to be an insurmountable balance problem in my games, but it seems clear that this is a result of the specific kinds of campaigns I run and the specific kinds of players I have. If you're going to argue that it is not fundamentally unbalanced, Lance, you need to address these core issues of the mechanic, not "hey this little spell here and hey this specific power there."

Unfortunantly your method fails to take into account that a psions powers may be inferior to a wizards.

All that means is that psions aren't as good as doing the wizard's particular "shtick" when it comes to magic. So what? Psions have plenty of other shit they do that wizards have no equivalent for.

[Anguirus]

^ Like what? Crappy healing? Astral constructs (summoning is arguably as good or better)? Some of the unique telepath and seer powers (pretty meh IMO)?

Psions are completely cut out of Illusion and virtually cut out of Necromancy, and they get very few things that a wizard or a cleric cannot a) simulate, or b) flat-out improve upon.

And do you think that 5d4+5 is an even marginally significant use of a wizard's power at the levels we're discussing?

Considering it equals a maxed-out magic missile, which may not be flashy but hits almost everything in the game, yes. Burning hands can still be a decent mook-killer or troll-finisher, and for essentially zero cost. For a better demonstration of free-scaling, think about fireball...the wizard spends the equivalent of 5 PP to do damage equivalent to 10 PP.

[lance]

1. None of them scale in DC (more important than damage scaling for many types of powers); the psions powers do.

Which is why the lower spell slots should be filled with things that don't allow a save such as alter self, solid fog, ray of enfeeblement, evards black tentacles or fly, as the wizard levels up. Also wizard can easily cast spells like enlarge person, haste or polymorph on the tank to increase his effectiveness. Which is something that psions either can't do at all or do so poorly.

And you think that, say, the use of 2 3rd-level utility spells adds up to the equivalent of a 6th-level spell... why? I mean, sure, in terms of outside-of-combat flexibility. But no one is arguing about that. If the wizard wants to be flexible outside of combat, he's forcing himself to limit his total offensive output, particularly in the use of the lower-level spells you claim allows him to bridge the combat gap with the psion.

Lower level spells are often very useful in combat. An empowered ray of enfeeblement and ray of exhaustion can easily reduce a melee threat to essentially no threat.

2. All of them have caps; the psions powers do not. All the low-level wizard spells are designed to cap at 5th-level!

Very few wizard spells actually cap at 5th level. Burning hands is they only one that I can think of in fact. Also the psion is paying for the increase. The wizard is getting it for free.

Almost all damaging spells of 1st and 2nd level cap at 5th. The only example I can think of that doesn't is scorching ray, which is a little overpowered for its level anyway. Spells that do not do damage are inherently capped by their low DCs.

No, they cap at 5 die, but they very rarely cap at 5th level. False life caps at 10th, magic missile caps at 9th, burning hands and alter self cap at 5, resist energy and scorching ray at 11. You also presume that the spell being cast has a DC, when many such as the fog and wall spells do not .

3. The psion can decide not to blow all his wad in one go, using just enough power at any time to be useful; the wizard is stuck with his slots.

At which point the wizards spell slots will come to be equal or more powerful in comparision. When the wizard uses a 1st level slot on fireball he does 5d4+5, when the psion uses his 1pp on a power it does 1d6+1. The psion is only going to have any edge if he is using his highest level powers.

And do you think that 5d4+5 is an even marginally significant use of a wizard's power at the levels we're discussing?

Compared to what a psion would be doing with a power point, maybe.

Now, as I've argued above, I haven't discovered this to be an insurmountable balance problem in my games, but it seems clear that this is a result of the specific kinds of campaigns I run and the specific kinds of players I have. If you're going to argue that it is not fundamentally unbalanced, Lance, you need to address these core issues of the mechanic, not "hey this little spell here and hey this specific power there."

Unfortunantly your method fails to take into account that a psions powers may be inferior to a wizards.

All that means is that psions aren't as good as doing the wizard's particular "shtick" when it comes to magic. So what? Psions have plenty of other shit they do that wizards have no equivalent for.

Name them. The wizards can do things that psions can not do. Such as the ability to a cast significant amount of buff spells that don't have the range personal.

[Turin]

Which is why the lower spell slots should be filled with things that don't allow a save such as alter self, solid fog, ray of enfeeblement, evards black tentacles or fly, as the wizard levels up. Also wizard can easily cast spells like enlarge person, haste or polymorph on the tank to increase his effectiveness. Which is something that psions either can't do at all or do so poorly.

And you think that, say, the use of 2 3rd-level utility spells adds up to the equivalent of a 6th-level spell... why? I mean, sure, in terms of outside-of-combat flexibility. But no one is arguing about that. If the wizard wants to be flexible outside of combat, he's forcing himself to limit his total offensive output, particularly in the use of the lower-level spells you claim allows him to bridge the combat gap with the psion.

Lower level spells are often very useful in combat. An empowered ray of enfeeblement and ray of exhaustion can easily reduce a melee threat to essentially no threat.

Nice way of completely ignoring what I just wrote, dipshit. Let's try again with different wording: And those two 3rd-level spells add up to the equivalent of a 6th-level spell like chain lightning or circle of death how, exactly? I'm not arguing that the lower level spells aren't useful, I'm saying they don't stack up to having a pile of the highest level powers.

Almost all damaging spells of 1st and 2nd level cap at 5th. The only example I can think of that doesn't is scorching ray, which is a little overpowered for its level anyway. Spells that do not do damage are inherently capped by their low DCs.

No, they cap at 5 die, but they very rarely cap at 5th level. False life caps at 10th, magic missile caps at 9th, burning hands and alter self cap at 5, resist energy and scorching ray at 11. You also presume that the spell being cast has a DC, when many such as the fog and wall spells do not .

Conceded on the dice-cap. But I'm presuming that a spell being cast to harm someone else has a DC, dipshit. I don't care about all those utility spells for purposes of discussing whether or not a psion's nova ability is unbalanced.

At which point the wizards spell slots will come to be equal or more powerful in comparision. When the wizard uses a 1st level slot on fireball he does 5d4+5, when the psion uses his 1pp on a power it does 1d6+1. The psion is only going to have any edge if he is using his highest level powers.

And do you think that 5d4+5 is an even marginally significant use of a wizard's power at the levels we're discussing?

Compared to what a psion would be doing with a power point, maybe.

But still totally irrelevant if you've got only 2 of your highest level powers to throw into combat, compared to the psion's 12, dumbass.

All that means is that psions aren't as good as doing the wizard's particular "shtick" when it comes to magic. So what? Psions have plenty of other shit they do that wizards have no equivalent for.

Name them. And wizards can do things that psions can not do such as the ability to a cast significant amount of buff spells that don't have the range personal.

The various utility powers Anguirus is referring to:

^ Like what? Crappy healing? Astral constructs (summoning is arguably as good or better)? Some of the unique telepath and seer powers (pretty meh IMO)?

But better yet, why don't you both pay attention and address the main rebuttal I made in that part of my post: so what? What the fuck do those various utility powers have to do with the question at hand?

I'm fully aware that both the psion and wizard have
a) some oddball items in their Bag of Tricks that can make them unbalanced; either specific feats or spells/powers, and
b) their own particular usefulness in the party.

What I'm arguing is that the nova ability makes the psion heavily unbalanced in terms of combat encounters in a campaign, thus necessitating the encounter pacing requirements that Nitram finds unacceptable and I find mildly irritating but workable (which has been discussed at length and settled to my satisfaction).

[lance]

And you think that, say, the use of 2 3rd-level utility spells adds up to the equivalent of a 6th-level spell... why? I mean, sure, in terms of outside-of-combat flexibility. But no one is arguing about that. If the wizard wants to be flexible outside of combat, he's forcing himself to limit his total offensive output, particularly in the use of the lower-level spells you claim allows him to bridge the combat gap with the psion.

Lower level spells are often very useful in combat. An empowered ray of enfeeblement and ray of exhaustion can easily reduce a melee threat to essentially no threat.

Nice way of completely ignoring what I just wrote, dipshit. Let's try again with different wording: And those two 3rd-level spells add up to the equivalent of a 6th-level spell like chain lightning or circle of death how, exactly?

By leaving virtually any target that has a strength of 11 or less unconscious with no save?

Almost all damaging spells of 1st and 2nd level cap at 5th. The only example I can think of that doesn't is scorching ray, which is a little overpowered for its level anyway. Spells that do not do damage are inherently capped by their low DCs.

No, they cap at 5 die, but they very rarely cap at 5th level. False life caps at 10th, magic missile caps at 9th, burning hands and alter self cap at 5, resist energy and scorching ray at 11. You also presume that the spell being cast has a DC, when many such as the fog and wall spells do not .

Conceded on the dice-cap. But I'm presuming that a spell being cast to harm someone else has a DC, dipshit. I don't care about all those utility spells for purposes of discussing whether or not a psion's nova ability is unbalanced.

Thats very presumptuous of you. Does leaving a person stuck in the middle of a cloud where he can't affect a battle for 4 rounds harm that person? Or stuck behind a wall? How about knocking a person's strength down by 9-17 points? knocking d4 levels off a person? Making the person make a balance check in order to move? Does turning the raging barbarian into a 12 headed hydra count as utility?

And do you think that 5d4+5 is an even marginally significant use of a wizard's power at the levels we're discussing?

Compared to what a psion would be doing with a power point, maybe.

But still totally irrelevant if you've got only 2 of your highest level powers to throw into combat, compared to the psion's 12, dumbass.

If your remaining spells are still doing a crap load more than what the psion is doing with his highest then so what? Turning the tank into a hydra is likely going to be as effective as what ever the psion is doing on his round, and his next round and the round after that, heck it might even be more effective than what the psion is doing on the next encounter too.

All that means is that psions aren't as good as doing the wizard's particular "shtick" when it comes to magic. So what? Psions have plenty of other shit they do that wizards have no equivalent for.

Name them. And wizards can do things that psions can not do such as the ability to a cast significant amount of buff spells that don't have the range personal.

The various utility powers Anguirus is referring to:

^ Like what? Crappy healing? Astral constructs (summoning is arguably as good or better)? Some of the unique telepath and seer powers (pretty meh IMO)?

Wizards have crappy healing, wizards can summon crap, I don't know what telepath or seer powers he is talking about, but I bet wizards have an something similar.

But better yet, why don't you both pay attention and address the main rebuttal I made in that part of my post: so what? What the fuck do those various utility powers have to do with the question at hand?

You are the only person I know that described battle field, debuffing and buffing as utility.

What I'm arguing is that the nova ability makes the psion heavily unbalanced in terms of combat encounters in a campaign, thus necessitating the encounter pacing requirements that Nitram finds unacceptable and I find mildly irritating but workable (which has been discussed at length and settled to my satisfaction).

I'm saying that that nova ability is either a myth for people that seem think battlefield control spells are utility spells or not as bad as implied.

[Turin]

Nice way of completely ignoring what I just wrote, dipshit. Let's try again with different wording: And those two 3rd-level spells add up to the equivalent of a 6th-level spell like chain lightning or circle of death how, exactly?

By leaving virtually any target that has a strength of 11 or less unconscious with no save?

Silly me. That's obviously the equivalent of taking 12 foes out of the fight (mass suggestion, chain lightning) killing 12d4HD of creatures (circle of death), turn an opponent to stone (stone to flesh), or totally disintegrating an opponent (disintegrate). Oh, and you're also a fucking liar because ray of enfeeblement can't even make someone unconscious.

But I'm presuming that a spell being cast to harm someone else has a DC, dipshit. I don't care about all those utility spells for purposes of discussing whether or not a psion's nova ability is unbalanced.

Thats very presumptuous of you. Does leaving a person stuck in the middle of a cloud where he can't affect a battle for 4 rounds harm that person? Or stuck behind a wall? How about knocking a person's strength down by 9-17 points? knocking d4 levels off a person? Making the person make a balance check in order to move? Does turning the raging barbarian into a 12 headed hydra count as utility?

Don't get into semantic games with me, child. You know exactly what I fucking meant when I'm talking about comparison to "nova." And none of what you've listen are remotely equivalent to the highest level spells, even when added together. Your barbarian/hydra example just shows me how stupid you are, actually; way to reduce the effectiveness of your barbarian there, chief.

I've snipped the rest of your idiocy because it's just you repeating the same thing over and over again.

[lance]

Nice way of completely ignoring what I just wrote, dipshit. Let's try again with different wording: And those two 3rd-level spells add up to the equivalent of a 6th-level spell like chain lightning or circle of death how, exactly?

By leaving virtually any target that has a strength of 11 or less unconscious with no save?

Silly me. That's obviously the equivalent of taking 12 foes out of the fight (mass suggestion, chain lightning) killing 12d4HD of creatures (circle of death), turn an opponent to stone (stone to flesh), or totally disintegrating an opponent (disintegrate).

It takes a person out of the fight? a melee creature that had its strength dropped by 19 points is as good as not being present. Not as good as turning it to stone, but it also has a less chance of failure.

Oh, and you're also a fucking liar because ray of enfeeblement can't even make someone unconscious.

Ray of enfeeblement says the subjects strength can't go below one so I was apparently wrong about that. How ever it can still leave an opponent immobilized.

But I'm presuming that a spell being cast to harm someone else has a DC, dipshit. I don't care about all those utility spells for purposes of discussing whether or not a psion's nova ability is unbalanced.

Thats very presumptuous of you. Does leaving a person stuck in the middle of a cloud where he can't affect a battle for 4 rounds harm that person? Or stuck behind a wall? How about knocking a person's strength down by 9-17 points? knocking d4 levels off a person? Making the person make a balance check in order to move? Does turning the raging barbarian into a 12 headed hydra count as utility?

Don't get into semantic games with me, child. You know exactly what I fucking meant when I'm talking about comparison to "nova." And none of what you've listen are remotely equivalent to the highest level spells, even when added together.

Really? Is turning a fight with 2 creatures into a fight with 1 of said creature now and another 4 turns from now not remotley as good as possibly assuming it doesn't make its save, a fight with 1 of said creature?

Your barbarian/hydra example just shows me how stupid you are, actually; way to reduce the effectiveness of your barbarian there, chief.

It quadruples his number of attacks, increases his reach, and drops his to hit bonus down by about 4 points relative to his first attack. How is this bad?

[Anguirus]

I think Turin totally missed my point about the almost laughably small number of things a psion can do that a wizard can't.

Oh, and lance actually has an EXCELLENT point about polymorph. A psion can only metamorph himself (and has to be an egoist or take a feat). But a wizard can drastically, DRASTICALLY increase the effectiveness of a melee warrior in his party with the cost of a single 4th level spell slot.

[SirNitram]

I believe I had a response to every point you made. Your main point is that psions can burn all their points in a "nova effect" I have presented evidence that this so called nova may come up short.

You may believe that, but you're full of shit. My main point is that the mechanic is unbalancing at it's core; the nova-effect is one aspect of this,

My understanding was that the nova ability was the major one.

Then you're illiterate or a liar. In which case, there's no point continuing a charade of a debate.

but only someone so ill-informed on the topic as to steadfastly declare Overchannel didn't do what it does would believe that's all.

Where did I declare that over channel did not do what it does?

In which lance is a fucking idiot.

And as for the 'WARFORGED HAVE IT!!!!!!', there's alot of supremely broken shit in Eberron, which is why I DM Forgotten Realms. Planar Sheppard, for example.

You haven't proved DR 2 is broken. It can be gotten with a feat- roll with it. A feat that can be taken more than once and stacks with itself.
You apparently have rose tinted glasses when it comes to campaign settings also. Incantatrix, greenbound summoning, manipulate forms ability for examples.

Manipulate Form? Oh, you mean the power for a supremely rare monster race that has been dying out since before Netheril?

That the Manipulate Form you mean? Wow, you can look up shit from the Optimization Boards. Idiot.

Yes that manipulate form. The one that allows for pun-pun.

Congratulations for proving my point. You saw it on the Op boards and figured it was a real balance issue. You're a moron.

[Anguirus]

^ Well, the Manipulate Form ability is, by RAW, more easily accessible in the Realms than the Planar Shepherd PrC is in Eberron.

That's what DMs are for. Though it doesn't excuse WotC repeatedly failing DC 5 Edit the Freaking Books Competently checks.

[SirNitram]

^ Well, the Manipulate Form ability is, by RAW, more easily accessible in the Realms than the Planar Shepherd PrC is in Eberron.

That's what DMs are for. Though it doesn't excuse WotC repeatedly failing DC 5 Edit the Freaking Books Competently checks.

It's easier for a DM to say 'No, you can't gain the full abilities of a dying race who you will likely never see' than 'No, you can't use that PrC'. Manipulate Form as a balance issue exists only because CharOp decided to go balls-out.