D&D psionics

[Napoleon the Clown]

I would have to agree that Psionics has a great chance for being broken by its very nature. Hell, throwing in templates (let's go with the Half-Minotaur temlate from Dragon Magazine) you can do obscene damage at fairly low levels without going nova.

Half-Minotaur Goliath (+10 bonus to Str from racial and size). Large size+powerful build means you can wield a huge weapon. Take the powers Expansion and Animal Affinity (both augmentable). Wielding a Huge scythe you'd do base damage of 3d6. Augment Expansion fully and you've now got a 6d6 weapon that crits for 4x. Unless I'm mistaken, there are feats to further boost the crit damage. 5x damage. Keen the scythe in a manner of your choosing. So you've got a Colossal scythe that crits on a 19-20 and does minimum of 4x damage on a crit, possibly 5x. 24d6 damage on a crit. With Deep Impact you can hit as a touch attack by expending psionic focus. If you have a properly set up psi-crystal you can slap on Greater Psionic Weapon for an additional 4d6 damage. So that's a 30d6 pool (as extra damage dice don't stack) of damage on a crit, unless you can grab a x5 in which case it becomes 36d6+other modifiers (your strength can be truly obscene at this point, as every 5 additional pp increases the stat of your choosing by another four points. 8 pp means +8 to str. That's +12 to Str for 15 pp, plus an additional 3d6 on your weapon before crit). Assuming a Str of 14 before adjustments you've now got (from racial and everything) a Strength of 24. Not too shabby, eh? Two increases (minimum for this to happen is 8th level) to Str puts you at a 26 base Str. Expansion for 7 and you've got an even 30 on Str. 8 on Animal Affinity and you're up to a 38. Your scythe is at 6d6 damage without crit. So a normal attack has 6d6+21 (1.5 Str mod for two handed). Throw on the additional 4d6 and you have 10d6+21. Average damage: 51. Guess who gets to save against massive damage!?

You just critted! 28d6+84 damage (this is if you expend psionic focus). At eighth level.


Not enough? At level 20 you can instead burn even more pp on Animal Affinity. By now you've got a Str of upto 28, though with a feat you can just assume the form of something stronger. We'll start here for now though... Burn 18 pp on AA and at Colossal size you have a Str of 48. +19 modifier. You can have all kinds of neat gimmicks on your scythe too! We'll go gimmickless though. Normal damage with Greater Psionic Weapon: 10d6+28. If you power attack it increases even more, to a max of -15 to hit, + 30 damage for a total of 10d6+58 (Guess who's making a fort save!) damage without a crit. No crit increase: 28d6+232 damage. Kiss your ass goodbye... And this is without a magic weapon or Dissolving Weapon (4d6 acid +1d6 per every 2 pp spent for a max of 12d6 acid) or ANY overchanneling. Throw that shit on and you get a +20 to Str from AA and +4 from further size increases for a total of +24 to your base Str of 28. Str 52? Where do I sign?! Damage bonus from Str: 39. Add on full power attack: 69 damage. On crit: 276. Add on Dissolving Weapon: 10d6 acid damage+6d6 Weapon+4d6 GPW for a dicepool of 20d6 before crit. 20d6+69 damage. Max damage=396 with a normal scythe.

If it's a +10 [type] Burst it gets +3d10 on a crit. Finish with, say, flaming (or any other elemental variant), and you add on another 1d6 damage. Hell, go nuts and put on another burst ability. Sure the attack and damage rolls only gain a +1 but now you get an additional 6d10 +1d6 on crits. That's +71 max damage on a crit for max damage of 467 points of damage. Broken? Hell no! (That was sarcasm there...)


The bad part? You've got this bullshit (except the additional acid damage) for 10 minutes per level. That's 200 minutes of being obscenely powerful. Tromp through the MM for a 15HD or less monster with a Str higher than 28, Huge size, and the ability to use your scythe and you can get even more insane by using Metamorphosis. Tack on Metamorphic transfer and you can gain access to a Su ability. Making a Warforged into one of the best races for a psionic class with access to Metamorphosis. Did someone say Wish as a Su ability? A Warforged can assume that form thanks to being of the Construct type! (The creature was mentioned in this thread, I think) Psionic classes can be broken, just like any other class. It's just a matter of how you do it and how easy it is. I basically stumbled on this one.


And nevermind a starting Str (before adjustments) of 16 or even 18.



Twin Power+Tornado Blast=8d6 (no save, no PR/SR) on a ranged touch attack + 17d6 AoE done twice for 50d6 damage. Not as much damage but I'll be damned if it isn't faster and easier to pull off. And it requires only XPH to do it. Right, and you can do this 16 times a day, minimum. Simple, straightforward stuff. That there are combinations that make the stuff in my post look tame shows how badly psionics can be abused.

[Turin]

By leaving virtually any target that has a strength of 11 or less unconscious with no save?

Silly me. That's obviously the equivalent of taking 12 foes out of the fight (mass suggestion, chain lightning) killing 12d4HD of creatures (circle of death), turn an opponent to stone (stone to flesh), or totally disintegrating an opponent (disintegrate).

It takes a person out of the fight? a melee creature that had its strength dropped by 19 points is as good as not being present. Not as good as turning it to stone, but it also has a less chance of failure.

Was it 11 points or 9-17 points or 19 points? I keep forgetting and it keeps climbing. It takes one creature out of the fight if it is primarily a melee combatant or wears gear and doesn't have a high touch AC, is incorporeal, has allies that can break the spell, etc. That you think this is equivalent to mass suggestion is laughable.

Don't get into semantic games with me, child. You know exactly what I fucking meant when I'm talking about comparison to "nova." And none of what you've listen are remotely equivalent to the highest level spells, even when added together.

Really? Is turning a fight with 2 creatures into a fight with 1 of said creature now and another 4 turns from now not remotley as good as possibly assuming it doesn't make its save, a fight with 1 of said creature?

I like how you keep pretending that apparently 6th-level spells are only capable of taking out one foe at a time, instead of the brutal multi-foe killers I've already mentioned.

Your barbarian/hydra example just shows me how stupid you are, actually; way to reduce the effectiveness of your barbarian there, chief.

It quadruples his number of attacks, increases his reach, and drops his to hit bonus down by about 4 points relative to his first attack. How is this bad?

It doesn't increase his number of attacks; see the text of alter self. It also slows him down to a crawl, probably wrecks his AC, and eliminates any advantages he has from magic weapons and equipment -- which at 12th-level (the example level we've been discussing) is significant.

I think Turin totally missed my point about the almost laughably small number of things a psion can do that a wizard can't.

I didn't miss it. I called it irrelevant. Do try to keep up.

You may believe that, but you're full of shit. My main point is that the mechanic is unbalancing at it's core; the nova-effect is one aspect of this,

My understanding was that the nova ability was the major one.

Then you're illiterate or a liar. In which case, there's no point continuing a charade of a debate.

lance, you're debating two different people here, you know that, right? The thrust of the argument that I've been won over to and am making is that the nova ability is the primary unbalancing aspect of the PP system. Nitram has a whole host of other arguments.

[Anguirus]

It's easier for a DM to say 'No, you can't gain the full abilities of a dying race who you will likely never see' than 'No, you can't use that PrC'.

Nonsense. The second sentence has fewer words in it, thus it is easier to say.

Unless I'm mistaken, there are feats to further boost the crit damage.

You are.

With Deep Impact you can hit as a touch attack by expending psionic focus. If you have a properly set up psi-crystal you can slap on Greater Psionic Weapon for an additional 4d6 damage.

That's FIVE feats there, six if you'd like to get your focus back as a move action.

You just critted! 28d6+84 damage (this is if you expend psionic focus). At eighth level.

Ok, kids, let's see if this actually is remotely practical.

You claim to be eighth level. That means you are no more than a seventh level psionic warrior, because goliath has LA +1. I don't know what the half-minotaur's LA is, so for your benefit I'll assume it's zero, though I doubt it is.

So you just qualify for the six feats you need to pull this off decently (Psionic Weapon, Deep Impact, Greater Psionic Weapon, Psionic Mediation, Psicrystal Affinity, and Psicrystal Containment.) You must, to accomplish this, has manifested a fully augmented expansion and animal affinity Because you are a seventh level psionic warrior, you cannot spend more than 7 PP on one power. So you can be Huge, but only for 7 rounds...not bad, but good luck getting the timing just right. You can't augment animal affinity either, though amusingly you can ONLY augment it to give you +4 to ANOTHER ability, you CANNOT get +8 on Strength. So that takes up 3 PP. Seventh level psychic warriors have 15 PP a day without an enhanced wisdom score.

So, you're using half or more of your PP per day to do massive damage to ONE target. Congratulations, you're a moderately good optimizer. But this proves psionics are broken in basically no way. I made a character essentially like this for a PvP game and called him the Juggernaut.

And sure, psions can do big damage at 20th level, but a great many optimizers consider damage basically irrelevant by then. A caster can gate in a solar, which is like an epic-level cleric but better.

[lance]

Silly me. That's obviously the equivalent of taking 12 foes out of the fight (mass suggestion, chain lightning) killing 12d4HD of creatures (circle of death), turn an opponent to stone (stone to flesh), or totally disintegrating an opponent (disintegrate).

It takes a person out of the fight? a melee creature that had its strength dropped by 19 points is as good as not being present. Not as good as turning it to stone, but it also has a less chance of failure.

Was it 11 points or 9-17 points or 19 points? I keep forgetting and it keeps climbing. It takes one creature out of the fight if it is primarily a melee combatant or wears gear and doesn't have a high touch AC, is incorporeal, has allies that can break the spell, etc. That you think this is equivalent to mass suggestion is laughable.

It does (d6+5)x1.5 which is 9-17, ray of exhaustion does 2 or 6 if they fail their save. Mass suggestion is easily protected against by a 1st level spell, protecton from evil.

Don't get into semantic games with me, child. You know exactly what I fucking meant when I'm talking about comparison to "nova." And none of what you've listen are remotely equivalent to the highest level spells, even when added together.

Really? Is turning a fight with 2 creatures into a fight with 1 of said creature now and another 4 turns from now not remotley as good as possibly assuming it doesn't make its save, a fight with 1 of said creature?

I like how you keep pretending that apparently 6th-level spells are only capable of taking out one foe at a time, instead of the brutal multi-foe killers I've already mentioned.

All right I was thinking on a limited scale, Evards black tentacles is the closest thing to that. Which scales nicely, and allows grapple checks instead of saves or spell resistance. An empowered fireball would be comparable to the chain lightning. A maximized or empowered scorchig ray would be just a little bit worse than disentegrate. No save versus less damage.

Your barbarian/hydra example just shows me how stupid you are, actually; way to reduce the effectiveness of your barbarian there, chief.

It quadruples his number of attacks, increases his reach, and drops his to hit bonus down by about 4 points relative to his first attack. How is this bad?

It doesn't increase his number of attacks; see the text of alter self. It also slows him down to a crawl, probably wrecks his AC, and eliminates any advantages he has from magic weapons and equipment -- which at 12th-level (the example level we've been discussing) is significant.

He can't take additional attacks due to extra limbs. For the equipment if it can still be worn by the new form remains worn. Belts and amulets don't care about size and can be worn by hydra's so they stay. The only thing he would lose is his magic weapon and armor.

You may believe that, but you're full of shit. My main point is that the mechanic is unbalancing at it's core; the nova-effect is one aspect of this,

My understanding was that the nova ability was the major one.

Then you're illiterate or a liar. In which case, there's no point continuing a charade of a debate.

lance, you're debating two different people here, you know that, right? The thrust of the argument that I've been won over to and am making is that the nova ability is the primary unbalancing aspect of the PP system. Nitram has a whole host of other arguments.

I believe his other arguments have been addressed except for the illithid grapple one, that I haven't been able to look into yet. The only thing psions have on the arcane casters is there ability to spam their high level powers.

[SirNitram]

It's easier for a DM to say 'No, you can't gain the full abilities of a dying race who you will likely never see' than 'No, you can't use that PrC'.

Nonsense. The second sentence has fewer words in it, thus it is easier to say.

I do hope that was satire, otherwise you're truly a lost cause.

[lance]

You may believe that, but you're full of shit. My main point is that the mechanic is unbalancing at it's core; the nova-effect is one aspect of this,

My understanding was that the nova ability was the major one.

Then you're illiterate or a liar. In which case, there's no point continuing a charade of a debate.

Let's see here

It is interesting to me that no one's realized all my beef's come from Psi's fundamental mechanic of PP. Since you can manipulate PP, and spend more to nova, that's where the problems come from.

So all your beefs come from that psi's mechanic of PP. Why? because they can manipulate them, and spend more on novas. How is that not your major issue?

but only someone so ill-informed on the topic as to steadfastly declare Overchannel didn't do what it does would believe that's all.

Where did I declare that over channel did not do what it does?

In which lance is a fucking idiot.

I said find where I declare that over channel did not do what it does, not where you nit pick my description of what the feat does.

You haven't proved DR 2 is broken. It can be gotten with a feat- roll with it. A feat that can be taken more than once and stacks with itself.
You apparently have rose tinted glasses when it comes to campaign settings also. Incantatrix, greenbound summoning, manipulate forms ability for examples.

Manipulate Form? Oh, you mean the power for a supremely rare monster race that has been dying out since before Netheril?

That the Manipulate Form you mean? Wow, you can look up shit from the Optimization Boards. Idiot.

Yes that manipulate form. The one that allows for pun-pun.

Congratulations for proving my point. You saw it on the Op boards and figured it was a real balance issue. You're a moron.

[/quote]No, the point was that there is that you said you play in Forgotten Realms because there is a lot of extremely broken shit in ebberon even though there is a lot of extemely broken shit in Forgotten Realms.

[SirNitram]

My understanding was that the nova ability was the major one.

Then you're illiterate or a liar. In which case, there's no point continuing a charade of a debate.

Let's see here

It is interesting to me that no one's realized all my beef's come from Psi's fundamental mechanic of PP. Since you can manipulate PP, and spend more to nova, that's where the problems come from.

So all your beefs come from that psi's mechanic of PP. Why? because they can manipulate them, and spend more on novas. How is that not your major issue?

Are you going to look at any of the rest of the thread, or just pretend you can weasal out of this with selective quoting?

Or perhaps you are illiterate. It's possible, alot of people who are mentally 13 years old don't have the ability to read clear statements like 'It forces you into a set number of encounters', because, in your case, it contains words longer than 'The'.

Where did I declare that over channel did not do what it does?

In which lance is a fucking idiot.

I said find where I declare that over channel did not do what it does, not where you nit pick my description of what the feat does.

'It doesn't increase manifester level!' And I quote that it does. Don't even try anymore, kid. You're just humiliating yourself.

Yes that manipulate form. The one that allows for pun-pun.

Congratulations for proving my point. You saw it on the Op boards and figured it was a real balance issue. You're a moron.

No, the point was that there is that you said you play in Forgotten Realms because there is a lot of extremely broken shit in ebberon even though there is a lot of extemely broken shit in Forgotten Realms.[/quote]

Are you going to prove this is accessible enough to be unbalancing? No, no you're not. You're going to scream a bit more, then perhaps contradict yourself, then finally just quote the Pun-Pun thread as if that works as anything but a thought experiment.

lance, go away. You've proven dishonest again and again, and your attempt to claim you didn't say what you have, and that I have said things completely at odds with my own statements, are pathetic.

[lance]

So a normal attack has 6d6+21 (1.5 Str mod for two handed). Throw on the additional 4d6 and you have 10d6+21. Average damage: 51. Guess who gets to save against massive damage!?

You just critted! 28d6+84 damage (this is if you expend psionic focus). At eighth level.

Actually your at least a tenth level character due to level adjustment. Goliathe has +1 and I don't know what 1/2 minitaur gives or even where its from. The animal affinity doesn't work due to what was pointed out already. So your doing 6d6+18. At tenth level a wizard or sorceror can turn into a hydra and arcane strike, wraith strike, and power attack for 50d4+10d10+100 avg 280. Which is more than your doing on a crit- with a sythe maxed out.

Not enough? At level 20 .... Max damage=396 with a normal scythe.

If it's a +10 [type] Burst it gets +3d10 on a crit. +1 but now you get an additional 6d10 +1d6 on crits. That's +71 max damage on a crit for max damage of 467 points of damage. Broken? Hell no! (That was sarcasm there...)

I don't think anybody cares about crits, but at 20th level the same wizard would be doing 108d4(arcane strike with 9th level spell +12 natural attacks)+12d10(12 heads)+218(120power attack, 108 from strength mod )

more insane by using Metamorphosis. Tack on Metamorphic transfer and you can gain access to a Su ability. Making a Warforged into one of the best races for a psionic class with access to Metamorphosis. Did someone say Wish as a Su ability? A Warforged can assume that form thanks to being of the Construct type! (The creature was mentioned in this thread, I think) Psionic classes can be broken, just like any other class. It's just a matter of how you do it and how easy it is.

Not as easy as or broken as wizard is what I'm getting.

Twin Power+Tornado Blast=8d6 (no save, no PR/SR) on a ranged touch attack + 17d6 AoE done twice for 50d6 damage. Not as much damage but I'll be damned if it isn't faster and easier to pull off. And it requires only XPH to do it. Right, and you can do this 16 times a day minimum

It's direct damage, which falls short of the 10th level wizard damage, but gets range and area so I guess it would be a fair trade off. .

Simple, straightforward stuff. That there are combinations that make the stuff in my post look tame

Expecially when one is using magic.

[lance]

Let's see here

It is interesting to me that no one's realized all my beef's come from Psi's fundamental mechanic of PP. Since you can manipulate PP, and spend more to nova, that's where the problems come from.

So all your beefs come from that psi's mechanic of PP. Why? because they can manipulate them, and spend more on novas. How is that not your major issue?

Are you going to look at any of the rest of the thread, or just pretend you can weasal out of this with selective quoting?

Or perhaps you are illiterate. It's possible, alot of people who are mentally 13 years old don't have the ability to read clear statements like 'It forces you into a set number of encounters', because, in your case, it contains words longer than 'The'.

Now why does it force you into a set number of encounters if not for there ability to nova?

'It doesn't increase manifester level!' And I quote that it does. Don't even try anymore, kid. You're just humiliating yourself.

Now where the fuck did I state it doesn't raise the manifester level?
Lets look at this-

Overchannel explicitly allows this.

No, it doesn't it raises the characters manifester level.

Aquarious states overchannel Y-I say No it does not it does x Now I maybe missing a comma between doesn't and it but I think anybody who was not a moron would understand what I posted.

Congratulations for proving my point. You saw it on the Op boards and figured it was a real balance issue. You're a moron.

No, the point was that there is that you said you play in Forgotten Realms because there is a lot of extremely broken shit in ebberon even though there is a lot of extemely broken shit in Forgotten Realms.

Are you going to prove this is accessible enough to be unbalancing? No, no you're not.

Strawman you said

there's alot of supremely broken shit in Eberron, which is why I DM Forgotten Realms.

Frankly don't care if it is unaccessable, fequently banned, is taken from the character op boards, or requires you to fuck yourself. It is in the Realms.

[Anguirus]

I do hope that was satire, otherwise you're truly a lost cause.

Sarcasm, not satire. In what way is it HARD to ban a prestige class? It's just as easy as removing a creature (or a creature's power) from the creature's you can polymorph into, or removing polymorph entirely.

Rule Zero is Rule Zero.

[SirNitram]

I do hope that was satire, otherwise you're truly a lost cause.

Sarcasm, not satire. In what way is it HARD to ban a prestige class? It's just as easy as removing a creature (or a creature's power) from the creature's you can polymorph into, or removing polymorph entirely.

Rule Zero is Rule Zero.

Not As Easy != Hard. There's really no reason why most players would dig through Serpent Kingdoms for an, IIRC, 16 HD critter to turn into. Most, however, would immediately notice 'oh hai get (su) and Spell-Like from t3h critter'.

[SirNitram]

Now why does it force you into a set number of encounters if not for there ability to nova?

16 level 6 powers vs. 2 level 6 spells would be the logical option, unless you demonstrate that psi powers are at least 6 times less effective than a spell of the same level.

Now where the fuck did I state it doesn't raise the manifester level?
Lets look at this-

Overchannel explicitly allows this.

No, it doesn't it raises the characters manifester level.

Aquarious states overchannel Y-I say No it does not it does x Now I maybe missing a comma between doesn't and it but I think anybody who was not a moron would understand what I posted.

This lie is pathetic.

No, it doesn't it raises the characters manifester level.

Benefit: While manifesting a power, you can increase your effective manifester level...

Are you done flogging in your desperation, kid?

Are you going to prove this is accessible enough to be unbalancing? No, no you're not.

Strawman you said

there's alot of supremely broken shit in Eberron, which is why I DM Forgotten Realms.

Frankly don't care if it is unaccessable, fequently banned, is taken from the character op boards, or requires you to fuck yourself. It is in the Realms.

Oh look, an ultra-semantic whore! What a stupid, pathetic last gasp. Why don't you keep insisting Overchannel doesn't explicitly raise manifester level, kiddo? You had better luck with that.

[Turin]

It takes a person out of the fight? a melee creature that had its strength dropped by 19 points is as good as not being present. Not as good as turning it to stone, but it also has a less chance of failure.

Was it 11 points or 9-17 points or 19 points? I keep forgetting and it keeps climbing. It takes one creature out of the fight if it is primarily a melee combatant or wears gear and doesn't have a high touch AC, is incorporeal, has allies that can break the spell, etc. That you think this is equivalent to mass suggestion is laughable.

It does (d6+5)x1.5 which is 9-17, ray of exhaustion does 2 or 6 if they fail their save. Mass suggestion is easily protected against by a 1st level spell, protecton from evil.

And? You think that naming a counterspell to a particular example answers the fucking question, dipshit? Particularly when I already mentioned several examples where your pathetic excuse for an argument wouldn't be useful (and I didn't even mention the rather trivial counters).

I like how you keep pretending that apparently 6th-level spells are only capable of taking out one foe at a time, instead of the brutal multi-foe killers I've already mentioned.

All right I was thinking on a limited scale, Evards black tentacles is the closest thing to that. Which scales nicely, and allows grapple checks instead of saves or spell resistance. An empowered fireball would be comparable to the chain lightning. A maximized or empowered scorchig ray would be just a little bit worse than disentegrate. No save versus less damage.

And an empowered fireball or maximized scorching ray both require 5th-level slots, moron. Which means they aren't piddling little 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells anymore. Evard's black tentacles is nice, but also leaves a battlefield hazard. You see a lot of wizards filling their 4th-level slots with this?

It quadruples his number of attacks, increases his reach, and drops his to hit bonus down by about 4 points relative to his first attack. How is this bad?

It doesn't increase his number of attacks; see the text of alter self. It also slows him down to a crawl, probably wrecks his AC, and eliminates any advantages he has from magic weapons and equipment -- which at 12th-level (the example level we've been discussing) is significant.

He can't take additional attacks due to extra limbs. For the equipment if it can still be worn by the new form remains worn. Belts and amulets don't care about size and can be worn by hydra's so they stay. The only thing he would lose is his magic weapon and armor.

Oh, so just his weapon (which provides a significant addition to his damage at this level) and his armor (which provides nearly all his AC at this level) will be gone. Gee wilikers, you sure showed me! (Not to mention, hydras can wear belts? ) And if you're a retarded enough DM that you wouldn't count the hydra extra heads as "limbs" for that purpose, then there's probably no helping you. I'd whack a player on the nose with a rolled up newspaper if he tried slipping that one by me.

[SirNitram]

Here's a question for all the folks demanding that psionics must be weaker: Who gives a fuck about direct damage? At level 7, a psion with Telepathy can remove someone from the battle, by duplicating a level 9 wizard. At level 11, he can now duplicate a level 17 wizard. What power? Dominate, Psionic. Oh noes, you can't do blasting?! You have a Save Or Die sooner than any wizard has the same. Want transit? Plane Shift at level 9! Don't like those feats? Never fear, level 7 psis can use Psychic Reformation!

[lance]

Now why does it force you into a set number of encounters if not for there ability to nova?

16 level 6 powers vs. 2 level 6 spells would be the logical option, unless you demonstrate that psi powers are at least 6 times less effective than a spell of the same level.

Maybe if wizards only got 6th level spells, and not 4th and 5th level spells in addition. Evard's, solid fog, and polymorph are all about on the same level as the 6th level spells.

Now where the fuck did I state it doesn't raise the manifester level?
Lets look at this-

Overchannel explicitly allows this.

No, it doesn't it raises the characters manifester level.

Aquarious states overchannel Y-I say No it does not it does x Now I maybe missing a comma between doesn't and it but I think anybody who was not a moron would understand what I posted.

This lie is pathetic.

No, it doesn't it raises the characters manifester level.

Benefit: While manifesting a power, you can increase your effective manifester level...

Are you done flogging in your desperation, kid?

Allow me to say it again but but in bold it raises the characters manifester level. Seriously are you that big of a fucking moron.

Are you going to prove this is accessible enough to be unbalancing? No, no you're not.

Strawman you said

there's alot of supremely broken shit in Eberron, which is why I DM Forgotten Realms.

Frankly don't care if it is unaccessable, fequently banned, is taken from the character op boards, or requires you to fuck yourself. It is in the Realms.

Oh look, an ultra-semantic whore! What a stupid, pathetic last gasp. Why don't you keep insisting Overchannel doesn't explicitly raise manifester level, kiddo? You had better luck with that

So do you deny that there is broken crap in the Forgotten Realms or not? Again I don't care if no sane DM will allow it, or if you have to crawl up Ed Greenwoods ass to read it.[/quote]

[SirNitram]

Now why does it force you into a set number of encounters if not for there ability to nova?

16 level 6 powers vs. 2 level 6 spells would be the logical option, unless you demonstrate that psi powers are at least 6 times less effective than a spell of the same level.

Maybe if wizards only got 6th level spells, and not 4th and 5th level spells in addition. Evard's, solid fog, and polymorph are all about on the same level as the 6th level spells.

Oh wow. Psion with Telepathy. 4th level power: Dominate Psionic. By 11th level he can mimic Dominate Monster. Save Or Die > Damage, always.

Now where the fuck did I state it doesn't raise the manifester level?
Lets look at this-

Overchannel explicitly allows this.

No, it doesn't it raises the characters manifester level.

Aquarious states overchannel Y-I say No it does not it does x Now I maybe missing a comma between doesn't and it but I think anybody who was not a moron would understand what I posted.

This lie is pathetic.

No, it doesn't it raises the characters manifester level.

Benefit: While manifesting a power, you can increase your effective manifester level...

Are you done flogging in your desperation, kid?

Allow me to say it again but but in bold it raises the characters manifester level. Seriously are you that big of a fucking moron.

I'm just quoting your words, kid. You can scream and use big text if it makes up for the fact in your head, but I'm just quoting you.

Strawman you said Frankly don't care if it is unaccessable, fequently banned, is taken from the character op boards, or requires you to fuck yourself. It is in the Realms.

Oh look, an ultra-semantic whore! What a stupid, pathetic last gasp. Why don't you keep insisting Overchannel doesn't explicitly raise manifester level, kiddo? You had better luck with that

So do you deny that there is broken crap in the Forgotten Realms or not? Again I don't care if no sane DM will allow it, or if you have to crawl up Ed Greenwoods ass to read it.

Of course you don't; you don't give a fuck about anything but your ultra-semantical whoring and dishonesty. Keep up the strawman though, little boy.

[lance]

Was it 11 points or 9-17 points or 19 points? I keep forgetting and it keeps climbing. It takes one creature out of the fight if it is primarily a melee combatant or wears gear and doesn't have a high touch AC, is incorporeal, has allies that can break the spell, etc. That you think this is equivalent to mass suggestion is laughable.

It does (d6+5)x1.5 which is 9-17, ray of exhaustion does 2 or 6 if they fail their save. Mass suggestion is easily protected against by a 1st level spell, protecton from evil.

And? You think that naming a counterspell to a particular example answers the fucking question, dipshit? Particularly when I already mentioned several examples where your pathetic excuse for an argument wouldn't be useful (and I didn't even mention the rather trivial counters).

Don't care, your expending a pair of 3rd level spells, a minimal resource expenditure at this level. If they are incorporal don't cast the spell, if they are fliging spells at you maybe try something else. If you try mass suggestion and they have protection from evil up you just used up one of your higher level spells. Also your examples allow saves, which mine do not so of course they are going to be a bit more powerful or versatile they also have the chance of flat out failure.

I like how you keep pretending that apparently 6th-level spells are only capable of taking out one foe at a time, instead of the brutal multi-foe killers I've already mentioned.

All right I was thinking on a limited scale, Evards black tentacles is the closest thing to that. Which scales nicely, and allows grapple checks instead of saves or spell resistance. An empowered fireball would be comparable to the chain lightning. A maximized or empowered scorchig ray would be just a little bit worse than disentegrate. No save versus less damage.

And an empowered fireball or maximized scorching ray both require 5th-level slots, moron.

Which I disputed how?

Which means they aren't piddling little 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells anymore.

They are still spells of lower level that are comparable to those of higher level.

Evard's black tentacles is nice, but also leaves a battlefield hazard. You see a lot of wizards filling their 4th-level slots with this?

That it leaves a battle field hazard is kinda the point. Mine seemed to have done pretty good with them.

It doesn't increase his number of attacks; see the text of alter self. It also slows him down to a crawl, probably wrecks his AC, and eliminates any advantages he has from magic weapons and equipment -- which at 12th-level (the example level we've been discussing) is significant.

He can't take additional attacks due to extra limbs. For the equipment if it can still be worn by the new form remains worn. Belts and amulets don't care about size and can be worn by hydra's so they stay. The only thing he would lose is his magic weapon and armor.

Oh, so just his weapon (which provides a significant addition to his damage at this level) and his armor (which provides nearly all his AC at this level) will be gone. Gee wilikers, you sure showed me! (Not to mention, hydras can wear belts? ) And if you're a retarded enough DM that you wouldn't count the hydra extra heads as "limbs" for that purpose, then there's probably no helping you. I'd whack a player on the nose with a rolled up newspaper if he tried slipping that one by me.

Heads are not limbs, so the hydra stands. As for whether it would help or not, it would drop the barbarians to hit by about 4 or 5 his damage by about the same, and give him 9 additional attacks. Sounds like it would be worth it to me.

[lance]

16 level 6 powers vs. 2 level 6 spells would be the logical option, unless you demonstrate that psi powers are at least 6 times less effective than a spell of the same level.

Maybe if wizards only got 6th level spells, and not 4th and 5th level spells in addition. Evard's, solid fog, and polymorph are all about on the same level as the 6th level spells.

Oh wow. Psion with Telepathy. 4th level power: Dominate Psionic. By 11th level he can mimic Dominate Monster. Save Or Die > Damage, always.

You due realize that the duration on that sucks compared to the arcane version right? Unless one spends 4 points on it. So the psion can get a bruiser of a creature at the same level a wizard can get a fighter, only the psion's lasts concentration and the wizards lasts for 11 days.

Now where the fuck did I state it doesn't raise the manifester level?
Lets look at this- Aquarious states overchannel Y-I say No it does not it does x Now I maybe missing a comma between doesn't and it but I think anybody who was not a moron would understand what I posted.

This lie is pathetic.
Are you done flogging in your desperation, kid?

Allow me to say it again but but in bold it raises the characters manifester level. Seriously are you that big of a fucking moron.

I'm just quoting your words, kid. You can scream and use big text if it makes up for the fact in your head, but I'm just quoting you.

No your quoting me and then blatantly lying about what I said. It is very hard to believe that you could mistake what I wrote, to the point that I won't believe it. You are dishonest.

Oh look, an ultra-semantic whore! What a stupid, pathetic last gasp. Why don't you keep insisting Overchannel doesn't explicitly raise manifester level, kiddo? You had better luck with that

So do you deny that there is broken crap in the Forgotten Realms or not? Again I don't care if no sane DM will allow it, or if you have to crawl up Ed Greenwoods ass to read it.

Of course you don't; you don't give a fuck about anything but your ultra-semantical whoring and dishonesty. Keep up the strawman though, little boy.

So answer the question are Incantatrix, greenbound summoning and manipulate form overpowered? Yes or no?

[SirNitram]

Maybe if wizards only got 6th level spells, and not 4th and 5th level spells in addition. Evard's, solid fog, and polymorph are all about on the same level as the 6th level spells.

Oh wow. Psion with Telepathy. 4th level power: Dominate Psionic. By 11th level he can mimic Dominate Monster. Save Or Die > Damage, always.

You due realize that the duration on that sucks compared to the arcane version right? Unless one spends 4 points on it. So the psion can get a bruiser of a creature at the same level a wizard can get a fighter, only the psion's lasts concentration and the wizards lasts for 11 days.

So? You win the damn fight. At a lower level and much earlier for non-humanoids.

Allow me to say it again but but in bold it raises the characters manifester level. Seriously are you that big of a fucking moron.

I'm just quoting your words, kid. You can scream and use big text if it makes up for the fact in your head, but I'm just quoting you.

No your quoting me and then blatantly lying about what I said. It is very hard to believe that you could mistake what I wrote, to the point that I won't believe it. You are dishonest.

No, I'm not.

You originally:

No, it doesn't it raises the characters manifester level.

You now:

Allow me to say it again but but in bold it raises the characters manifester level.

Scream some more.

So do you deny that there is broken crap in the Forgotten Realms or not? Again I don't care if no sane DM will allow it, or if you have to crawl up Ed Greenwoods ass to read it.

Of course you don't; you don't give a fuck about anything but your ultra-semantical whoring and dishonesty. Keep up the strawman though, little boy.

So answer the question are Incantatrix, greenbound summoning and manipulate form overpowered? Yes or no?

Nice strawman again. Come back when you have read what I posted, kid. Until then, you get nothing.

[lance]

Oh wow. Psion with Telepathy. 4th level power: Dominate Psionic. By 11th level he can mimic Dominate Monster. Save Or Die > Damage, always.

You due realize that the duration on that sucks compared to the arcane version right? Unless one spends 4 points on it. So the psion can get a bruiser of a creature at the same level a wizard can get a fighter, only the psion's lasts concentration and the wizards lasts for 11 days.

So? You win the damn fight. At a lower level and much earlier for non-humanoids.

Only if there is one opponent. If not you are now using a concentration spell and with the arcane version you can be winning fights next week

No, I'm not.

You originally:

No, it doesn't it raises the characters manifester level.

You now:

Allow me to say it again but but in bold it raises the characters manifester level.

Scream some more.

Dear god your dishonest. You do realize that that is a copy paste right? As in I am saying the exact same thing then as I am now in regards to what overchannel does.

So do you deny that there is broken crap in the Forgotten Realms or not? Again I don't care if no sane DM will allow it, or if you have to crawl up Ed Greenwoods ass to read it.

Of course you don't; you don't give a fuck about anything but your ultra-semantical whoring and dishonesty. Keep up the strawman though, little boy.

So answer the question are Incantatrix, greenbound summoning and manipulate form overpowered? Yes or no?

Nice strawman again. Come back when you have read what I posted, kid. Until then, you get nothing.

Then clarify what did you mean?

[SirNitram]

You're too stupid to read? Not my problem.

[lance]

You're too stupid to read? Not my problem.

Explain how you get overchannel doesn't raise manifester level from this?

No, it doesn't it raises the characters manifester level.

Because I am not seeing how you can honestly get that from this. Does anyone else?

[SirNitram]

I'm more referring to your sad, pathetic strawman on why I play FR. But if you're admitting that that's just a sad, pathetic strawman, and that your claims of psionics being weaker are wrong, I will happily concede that, yes, I appear to have misread that sentence.

To review: Nitram: Misread one of lance's sentences.
Lance: Strawman's endlessly.

[Turin]

And? You think that naming a counterspell to a particular example answers the fucking question, dipshit? Particularly when I already mentioned several examples where your pathetic excuse for an argument wouldn't be useful (and I didn't even mention the rather trivial counters).

Don't care, your expending a pair of 3rd level spells, a minimal resource expenditure at this level. If they are incorporal don't cast the spell, if they are fliging spells at you maybe try something else. If you try mass suggestion and they have protection from evil up you just used up one of your higher level spells. Also your examples allow saves, which mine do not so of course they are going to be a bit more powerful or versatile they also have the chance of flat out failure.

I like how you assume some significant portion of foes are walking around with protection from evil on all the time. Maybe I should just assume that everyone's walking around with invisibility or blur on then, huh? I mean, those are low-level spells, right? Dumbass.

Since I seem to just be hammering on a brick wall here with you, why don't I change tacks? If the wizard's spell list is just so shit-hot with 1st-level spells, why do wizard's still typically load up on all the highest level attack spells they can, and fill out their balance with utility and battlefield control magic. Shouldn't they be just filling their slots with maximized-empowered whatevers? Oh, wait, I bet they don't do that because 6th-level spells are more effective, huh?

I like how you keep pretending that apparently 6th-level spells are only capable of taking out one foe at a time, instead of the brutal multi-foe killers I've already mentioned.

All right I was thinking on a limited scale, Evards black tentacles is the closest thing to that. Which scales nicely, and allows grapple checks instead of saves or spell resistance. An empowered fireball would be comparable to the chain lightning. A maximized or empowered scorchig ray would be just a little bit worse than disentegrate. No save versus less damage.

And an empowered fireball or maximized scorching ray both require 5th-level slots, moron. Which means they aren't piddling little 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells anymore.

They are still spells of lower level that are comparable to those of higher level.

1 level lower, you dishonest little shit. Of course they're going to remain powerful but slightly less so. They're still not as categorically powerful as higher level spells. And it means that you're still full of shit with your ridiculous claim that a couple of lower level spells are typically as powerful as a 6th-level spell.

He can't take additional attacks due to extra limbs. For the equipment if it can still be worn by the new form remains worn. Belts and amulets don't care about size and can be worn by hydra's so they stay. The only thing he would lose is his magic weapon and armor.

Oh, so just his weapon (which provides a significant addition to his damage at this level) and his armor (which provides nearly all his AC at this level) will be gone. Gee wilikers, you sure showed me! (Not to mention, hydras can wear belts? ) And if you're a retarded enough DM that you wouldn't count the hydra extra heads as "limbs" for that purpose, then there's probably no helping you. I'd whack a player on the nose with a rolled up newspaper if he tried slipping that one by me.

Heads are not limbs, so the hydra stands. As for whether it would help or not, it would drop the barbarians to hit by about 4 or 5 his damage by about the same, and give him 9 additional attacks. Sounds like it would be worth it to me.

The hydra stands in your distorted world where you piss all over the obvious intent of the wording of that rule in order to prove your damn point. Oh, and by the way, I checked and gear doesn't change size with polymorph, so your barbarian can't wear any of his gear, and you were just as full of shit as I thought. What's so sad is that you're defending this point so stridently that you've forgotten that you were claiming this was easily as powerful as a 6th-level offensive spell. Which is demonstrably is not.

[lance]

And? You think that naming a counterspell to a particular example answers the fucking question, dipshit? Particularly when I already mentioned several examples where your pathetic excuse for an argument wouldn't be useful (and I didn't even mention the rather trivial counters).

Don't care, your expending a pair of 3rd level spells, a minimal resource expenditure at this level. If they are incorporal don't cast the spell, if they are fliging spells at you maybe try something else. If you try mass suggestion and they have protection from evil up you just used up one of your higher level spells. Also your examples allow saves, which mine do not so of course they are going to be a bit more powerful or versatile they also have the chance of flat out failure.

I like how you assume some significant portion of foes are walking around with protection from evil on all the time. Maybe I should just assume that everyone's walking around with invisibility or blur on then, huh? I mean, those are low-level spells, right? Dumbass.

It is very easy to tell if someone has invisibility or blur on. Also this doesn't change the fact that the 6th level spells you selected have saves, the ones I picked don't. Thus they have an advantage over the spells you listed.

Since I seem to just be hammering on a brick wall here with you, why don't I change tacks? If the wizard's spell list is just so shit-hot with 1st-level spells, why do wizard's still typically load up on all the highest level attack spells they can, and fill out their balance with utility and battlefield control magic. Shouldn't they be just filling their slots with maximized-empowered whatevers? Oh, wait, I bet they don't do that because 6th-level spells are more effective, huh?

Of course they are more effective in most cases, just not greatly so.

All right I was thinking on a limited scale, Evards black tentacles is the closest thing to that. Which scales nicely, and allows grapple checks instead of saves or spell resistance. An empowered fireball would be comparable to the chain lightning. A maximized or empowered scorchig ray would be just a little bit worse than disentegrate. No save versus less damage.

And an empowered fireball or maximized scorching ray both require 5th-level slots, moron. Which means they aren't piddling little 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells anymore.

They are still spells of lower level that are comparable to those of higher level.

1 level lower, you dishonest little shit. Of course they're going to remain powerful but slightly less so. They're still not as categorically powerful as higher level spells. And it means that you're still full of shit with your ridiculous claim that a couple of lower level spells are typically as powerful as a 6th-level spell.

I'm pretty sure I never claimed that they were, outside maybe the ray of enfeeblement and exhaustion. I believe I said almost. Evards is almost as good as circle of death, definitely better than chain lighting.

He can't take additional attacks due to extra limbs. For the equipment if it can still be worn by the new form remains worn. Belts and amulets don't care about size and can be worn by hydra's so they stay. The only thing he would lose is his magic weapon and armor.

Oh, so just his weapon (which provides a significant addition to his damage at this level) and his armor (which provides nearly all his AC at this level) will be gone. Gee wilikers, you sure showed me! (Not to mention, hydras can wear belts? ) And if you're a retarded enough DM that you wouldn't count the hydra extra heads as "limbs" for that purpose, then there's probably no helping you. I'd whack a player on the nose with a rolled up newspaper if he tried slipping that one by me.

Heads are not limbs, so the hydra stands. As for whether it would help or not, it would drop the barbarians to hit by about 4 or 5 his damage by about the same, and give him 9 additional attacks. Sounds like it would be worth it to me.

The hydra stands in your distorted world where you piss all over the obvious intent of the wording of that rule in order to prove your damn point. Oh, and by the way, I checked and gear doesn't change size with polymorph, so your barbarian can't wear any of his gear, and you were just as full of shit as I thought.

either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item

So if the form can were the equipment it stays on. Most magic items say that anyone can where said item. Ergo the equipment stays, except for the armor and likely the weapon.

What's so sad is that you're defending this point so stridently that you've forgotten that you were claiming this was easily as powerful as a 6th-level offensive spell. Which is demonstrably is not.

Then demonstrate it. Don't just spout off crap and expect me to believe it. I have stated why I think its better, the loss of about 5 to hit and damage is out weighed by the 9 extra attacks.