Earth Alliance Militarism (Gundam Seed)

[Warsie]

Does anyone think the Earth Alliance might be militaristic? Yes it IS a Military Alliance but still....

In the peace treaty of Junius, the PLANT had the supreme council in civilian clothes sign the treaty. The Earth Alliance had military officers; generals, etc in uniform sign. why wasn't there the President of the Atlantic Federation, the Eurasian Council, etc there? Maybe it wasn't seen; it was a short scene but hmmm..

During Cagalli's meeting with the Atlantic Federation, it was again a meeting with military officers. Yes there was some civilian people on the AF; but only Cagalli on the Orb side had her military uniform on, the rest of the Orb guys were civilian dressed.

Also, how is the structure of the Alliance if supposedly the Atlantic Federation could declare war unilaterally in the second war. Did the Secretary-General of the Alliance agree, etc. the President of the Atlantic Federation was not present in the original war (though Zala did aim GENESIS at Washington D.C. hmmm).

why did he aim it there? Was it as the AF was the most racist towards the Coordinators and the Eurasians were not so bad? A symbolic thing? Or was simply tht part facing the PLANTs at the time.

Also, the helmet and space suit usage in combat. Why did the Blue Cosmos forces not use space suits when in combat? See the beginning of the second war; the surprise task force bridge had no members in space suits. for the first war apparently the nuclear task force (apart from Archangel) at Jachin Due had space suits (Except sutherland and the other generals. Why didn't he choose to wear one?)

helmets in combat

[Sidewinder]

Does anyone think the Earth Alliance might be militaristic? Yes it IS a Military Alliance but still....

I admit I've only seen the second and third 'Gundam SEED' movies and 30+ episodes of 'Gundam SEED Destiny', but to consider the Earth Alliance as being non-militaristic is to be delusional. I think Bandai was trying to portray the Earth Alliance the way the Japanese perceive American militarism during WWII, although the Atlantic Federation's outright conquest of the United States of South America reminds me of Imperial Japan's actions against Southeast Asia during WWII.

In the peace treaty of Junius, the PLANT had the supreme council in civilian clothes sign the treaty. The Earth Alliance had military officers; generals, etc in uniform sign. why wasn't there the President of the Atlantic Federation, the Eurasian Council, etc there? Maybe it wasn't seen; it was a short scene but hmmm..

Again, see WWII, specifically, the Japanese surrender to the Allies, in which the US is represented by General MacArthur, not President Truman.

Also, how is the structure of the Alliance if supposedly the Atlantic Federation could declare war unilaterally in the second war.

If you're talking about the war in 'Gundam SEED Destiny', note that the Eurasian Federation tried to break away from the Earth Alliance, and the Atlantic Federation had to send troops to suppress revolts against Earth Alliance authority.

why did he aim it there? Was it as the AF was the most racist towards the Coordinators and the Eurasians were not so bad? A symbolic thing? Or was simply tht part facing the PLANTs at the time.

Outside the universe, I think it's a Japanese thing, specifically, their anger towards the US for defeating them in WWII. The in universe explanation is probably as you described, i.e., Patrick Zala blames the Atlantic Federation for the attack that killed his wife.

Also, the helmet and space suit usage in combat. Why did the Blue Cosmos forces not use space suits when in combat?

Outside the universe, the animators either decided not to put the crewmembers in space suits so they'd express emotions better, or because the animators were damn lazy and didn't want to spend time drawing them in bulky space suits. In universe, the crewmembers were dumbasses.

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

As far as I know, the Earth-bound forces have been required to be militaristic dicks ever since Zeta Gundam, with few exceptions. Then again, it could be yet another case of the Cosmic Era stealing entire volumes from the Universal Century; Blue Cosmos does seem to take after the Titans an awful lot, after all.

why did he aim it there? Was it as the AF was the most racist towards the Coordinators and the Eurasians were not so bad? A symbolic thing? Or was simply tht part facing the PLANTs at the time.

The Atlantic Federation was indeed the most genetically prejudiced of the Earth Alliance member states. While the Eurasians may seem more benign at first, the Astray manga (specifically, X Astray) reveals that they're just as opportunistic, duplicitous, and self-serving as their Atlantic comrades.

[Black Admiral]

One thing the Earth Alliance does have going for them is that their treatment of prisoners is a whole lot more enlightened than ZAFT's - certainly, so far as I can recall, the EA's never considered it acceptable to vivisect a POW.

[Warsie]

I admit I've only seen the second and third 'Gundam SEED' movies and 30+ episodes of 'Gundam SEED Destiny', but to consider the Earth Alliance as being non-militaristic is to be delusional.

Okay, I was just wondering given there are civilian officers, etc. and it was the President of the Atlantic Federation who made the (unilateral?) declaration of war.

I think Bandai was trying to portray the Earth Alliance the way the Japanese perceive American militarism during WWII, although the Atlantic Federation's outright conquest of the United States of South America reminds me of Imperial Japan's actions against Southeast Asia during WWII.

Well The Atlantic Federation wasn't very aggressive in holding the USSA AFAIK. It could be a parallel to the Phillipino-American War in that eventually it rebelled...after the Battle of Jachin Due. Well the Japanese did use the excuse of a Chinese attack on one of their bridges as an excuse to invade. k

Again, see WWII, specifically, the Japanese surrender to the Allies, in which the US is represented by General MacArthur, not President Truman.

okay, thx.

If you're talking about the war in 'Gundam SEED Destiny', note that the Eurasian Federation tried to break away from the Earth Alliance, and the Atlantic Federation had to send troops to suppress revolts against Earth Alliance authority.

yes, well that was mainly European states except the UK and Ireland (That somehow ended up part of the Atlantic Federation; though that could be a reference to the WW2 Allies as you suggested..)

Outside the universe, I think it's a Japanese thing, specifically, their anger towards the US for defeating them in WWII.

yeah, that could be it given Commodore Perry, Pearl Harbor and the bombings (conventional and atomic)

The in universe explanation is probably as you described, i.e., Patrick Zala blames the Atlantic Federation for the attack that killed his wife.

k. well they were

Outside the universe, the animators either decided not to put the crewmembers in space suits so they'd express emotions better, or because the animators were damn lazy and didn't want to spend time drawing them in bulky space suits.

kind of odd that given they drew Halberton's Menelaus bridge crew that way.

In universe, the crewmembers were dumbasses.

heh....that or the nuclear force did not except to be in combat (based off the battle plan the 4 Agennamons and Dominion were supposed to stay away from combat and launch the Mobiuses from a distance). Also note this was the bridge crew I was referring to. but in the second portion of the battle the crew did...except for Sutherland. I find it odd to consider him a 'dumbass'.

As far as I know, the Earth-bound forces have been required to be militaristic dicks ever since Zeta Gundam, with few exceptions.

oh, thank you.

. Then again, it could be yet another case of the Cosmic Era stealing entire volumes from the Universal Century; Blue Cosmos does seem to take after the Titans an awful lot, after all.

In how they are willing to do "whatever is necessary" to get the job done.

One thing the Earth Alliance does have going for them is that their treatment of prisoners is a whole lot more enlightened than ZAFT's - certainly, so far as I can recall, the EA's never considered it acceptable to vivisect a POW.

heh..after JOSH-A in the first war they simply killed any surrendering POWs...as shown in the 3rd battle of Victoria; even the Eurasians resorted to that. (the forces there were mainly Eurasians and there was a scene of an Earth Alliance soldier shooting and killing a wounded ZAFT pilot)

[Black Admiral]

heh..after JOSH-A in the first war they simply killed any surrendering POWs...as shown in the 3rd battle of Victoria; even the Eurasians resorted to that. (the forces there were mainly Eurasians and there was a scene of an Earth Alliance soldier shooting and killing a wounded ZAFT pilot)

That would be after ZAFT decided to massacre surrendering EAF personnel at Panama; it can't really be said that was without provocation (and we don't know if it was official policy, albeit I wouldn't be surprised).

And there is a difference between not taking POWs in the first place, and taking one and deciding to vivisect them (which I'm pretty sure is about 150 kinds of illegal).

[Black Admiral]

Ghetto edit: Of course, it doesn't say much in favour of Talia or the Minerva's CMO that neither found the idea of vivisecting a POW particularly objectionable.

[Warsie]

That would be after ZAFT decided to massacre surrendering EAF personnel at Panama; it can't really be said that was without provocation (and we don't know if it was official policy, albeit I wouldn't be surprised).

k

And there is a difference between not taking POWs in the first place, and taking one and deciding to vivisect them (which I'm pretty sure is about 150 kinds of illegal).[/quote]

k

Ghetto edit: Of course, it doesn't say much in favour of Talia or the Minerva's CMO that neither found the idea of vivisecting a POW particularly objectionable.

heh. Well they were well surprised and distraught at the Extended facility.

Oh, Sidewinder and Black Admiral, I forgot this. The seceding Eurasian nations tended to be from Western Europe, and the Arab areas. I remember someone suggesting that it was Slavic (mainly Russian) Imperialism and those nations got pissed off at it, or some other existing differences between Russia and the Eastern European nations and Western Europe (Orthodoxy vs Catholism, the 'liberalism' and feminism in the west vs a lesser version of it in Eastern Europe, etc.

See these links:

"Neo-Eurasianism (Russian: неоевразийство) is a Russian school of thought, popularized in Russia during the years leading up to and following the collapse of the Soviet Union, that considers Russia to be culturally closer to Asia than to Western Europe."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Eurasianism

"A significant number of Russian historians consider the oppression of Rus' by the Mongols to be the major cause of what is sometimes called "the East-West gap" - approximately 200 years delay in introducing major social, political and economical reforms and scientific innovations in Russia comparing to Western Europe."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_inv ... Tatar_yoke


see this pic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Clas ... %88%9E.png

rest of the article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_Civilizations

interesting how this seems to be in line with Africa divided into 2 superstates; one in the north and one in the south; and the nations that seceded from Eurasia remarkably well (Except the central asian nations that IIRC were with the Eurasian Federation)

Or I'm overthinking thid

[Warsie]

^^

and that's IT these differences matter THAT much some 75-100 years in the future, which I have a hard time given the reconstruction war. If this is really why Eurasia broke up then there's significant inter-natural racism in that time; when it seems as it's mostly natural-coordinator hate (which I find unlkely). Or it's just cultural differences that brought the breakup, which I don't think would be that sharp and last that long given globalization-but given the rise of neo-nazism and racism in Russia who knows?

haha wow if the creators had all that in mind....

[Sidewinder]

haha wow if the creators had all that in mind....

In my opinion, the writers were pulling shit out of their asses trying to picture a future world that's not so different from the contemporary world that contemporary audiences will go, "What the hell is this? I don't get it. Let's change the channel to something I do get."

However, THAT Animeblog notes that Sunrise has a SEVERE lack of imagination in picturing a future world, e.g., the Atlantic Federation president living in the fucking White House in 'Gundam SEED' and 'Gundam SEED Destiny', and the Union using a reversed version of the Star Spangled Banner in 'Gundam 00'.

[Black Admiral]

Ghetto edit: Of course, it doesn't say much in favour of Talia or the Minerva's CMO that neither found the idea of vivisecting a POW particularly objectionable.

heh. Well they were well surprised and distraught at the Extended facility.

Does rather make them raging hypocrites - horrible medical experiments are bad when the EA does them, but when ZAFT does them it's okay.

And, quite frankly, I do not trust the objectivity of the information provided in GSD - it's almost exclusively from the perspective of ZAFT or others who have no reason not to assume the worst of the Earth Alliance. For all we know, the EA could simply be the victim of a massive smear campaign by ZAFT.

[Ford Prefect]

However, THAT Animeblog notes that Sunrise has a SEVERE lack of imagination in picturing a future world, e.g., the Atlantic Federation president living in the fucking White House in 'Gundam SEED' and 'Gundam SEED Destiny', and the Union using a reversed version of the Star Spangled Banner in 'Gundam 00'.

Of course, THAT Animeblog is so full of shit that you can pretty much discredit everything it says completely out of hand. It could be comedy, as the opening paragraph about his offense at the American flag* being put on backwards is extremely over the top. Either way, it's not a particularly good source for anything.

*Note, that's the American flag, not the Union flag, which is completely blue and has the word 'Union' on it.

Does rather make them raging hypocrites - horrible medical experiments are bad when the EA does them, but when ZAFT does them it's okay.

Does this really surprise you? The writing wasn't exactly good after all, even without the Mary Sue wankery of Destiny.

[Ford Prefect]

Apologies for the double post, but I should correct something here. Out of hand, I dismissed the entirety of THAT Animeblog, which I shouldn't have done. My experience has been limited only to Comrade Crusader, and thus my comments should only be directed towards him, and not the rest of the site which I understand has more than one writer.

[Black Admiral]

Does rather make them raging hypocrites - horrible medical experiments are bad when the EA does them, but when ZAFT does them it's okay.

Does this really surprise you?

Well, no, actually. I'd already come to the conclusion that ZAFT are a pack of utterly stupid, complete arses who happen to have good PR; Talia's raging hypocrisy simply seals the deal.

The writing wasn't exactly good after all, even without the Mary Sue wankery of Destiny.

Regrettably true; then again my obsessive completeism'll probably convince me to get all of the GSD DVDs anyway.

[AniThyng]

I think the use of the White House as the seat of power for the Atlantic Alliance is the least unrealistic aspect of it. I mean, why not? It's obviously American Empire Mk 2.

Besides, it wasn't the Atlantic alliance that declared "If you're not with us, you are against us" first

[Warsie]

haha wow if the creators had all that in mind....

In my opinion, the writers were pulling shit out of their asses trying to picture a future world that's not so different from the contemporary world that contemporary audiences will go, "What the hell is this? I don't get it. Let's change the channel to something I do get."

k. thx

However, THAT Animeblog notes that Sunrise has a SEVERE lack of imagination in picturing a future world, e.g., the Atlantic Federation president living in the fucking White House in 'Gundam SEED' and 'Gundam SEED Destiny', and the Union using a reversed version of the Star Spangled Banner in 'Gundam 00'.[/quote]

am I the only person who had no problem with the Atlantic Federation's President working in the White House? Given the North American Union actually happening in 'real life' and the benefit the US gets out of that it would be logical.

but I haven't seem Gundam 00 so I can't say about that.

But then that makes it understandable why they had ZAFT dstroy Arzachel after the POTAF disagreed and made it vocal, etc

Does rather make them raging hypocrites - horrible medical experiments are bad when the EA does them, but when ZAFT does them it's okay.

so true

And, quite frankly, I do not trust the objectivity of the information provided in GSD - it's almost exclusively from the perspective of ZAFT or others who have no reason not to assume the worst of the Earth Alliance. For all we know, the EA could simply be the victim of a massive smear campaign by ZAFT.

true as well; note how GS originally had a perspective from the EA then it got murky towards the middle and the story was biased towrds the Orb and 3 ships alliance

[Sidewinder]

I think the use of the White House as the seat of power for the Atlantic Alliance is the least unrealistic aspect of it. I mean, why not? It's obviously American Empire Mk 2.

If the Atlantic Federation is supposed to be a militaristic state that actually launches wars of conquest, it would make more sense to put the president in a fortified command center, e.g., the Cheyenne Mountain Operations Center.

Besides, it wasn't the Atlantic alliance that declared "If you're not with us, you are against us" first

If 'Gundam SEED' is supposed to be commentary on George W. Bush's conduct in the GWOT, it's a rather bad commentary. Seriously, no one at Sunrise thought of hiring military advisors, like the producers of the 'Metal Gear Solid' games?

[Warsie]

If the Atlantic Federation is supposed to be a militaristic state that actually launches wars of conquest, it would make more sense to put the president in a fortified command center, e.g., the Cheyenne Mountain Operations Center.

IIRC, in Gundam Seed Destiny he was at the Earth Alliance lunar Arzachel base from before the way was declared (moving away from Earth and a lesser chance of death) to when he was killed when Arzachel was blown up

If 'Gundam SEED' is supposed to be commentary on George W. Bush's conduct in the GWOT, it's a rather bad commentary. Seriously, no one at Sunrise thought of hiring military advisors, like the producers of the 'Metal Gear Solid' games?

oh, yeah what's wrong with it?

[Darksider]

Just as another possible example of ZAFT's shadier elements, in the episode "Fates," When captain gladys and chairman durandal are going their separate ways, she mentions that she wants to have a child, and must follow ZAFT regulations to do so.

The plants have regulations for having children. combine this with the fact that the population of the plants contain absolutly no naturals whatsoever, and you start to see some scary implications.

[SylasGaunt]

Would you perhaps be referring to implications that involve.. jackboots? Or perhaps an askew buddhist good luck charm?

[Black Admiral]

It's certainly worth pointing out, relevant to the thread's topic, that given what the Atlantic Federation actually knew RE the fall of Junius Seven, ZAFT was deserving of a thorough arse-kicking.

Amongst other things, the only actual information the Atlantic Fed has on what went on when ZAFT was - allegedly - trying to blow up Junius Seven is a collection of gun-camera photos from the Phantom Pain team's MSes; a set of photos which have passed through the hands of Dijbril. Now, if you think he's not going to edit them to make ZAFT look as bad as possible, I have some cheap, beach front property in London to sell you.

Secondly, ZAFT, apparently without providing their own side of things, conceded that the version the AF had was "more or less" true. Given what the AF knew, that's tantamount to an admission of guilt. I'll grant that the source of ZAFT's conceding the issue (Yuna Roma Seiran) is a liar and an utter cad, but I think he was telling the truth there.

Third, if I recall GS Stargazer correctly, shortly after the colony fragments hit there were a number of terrorist attacks using fairly modern ZAFT mobile suits. Now, ZAFT could claim - and I'll concede they might be telling the truth, however unlikely it is - that those had nothing to do with them; but, if you were the Atlantic Federation president, would you believe a word of it?

I'm sure I can find other reasons therein, of course.

[Darksider]

Would you perhaps be referring to implications that involve.. jackboots? Or perhaps an askew buddhist good luck charm?

I'm not accusing ZAFT of outright Nazism, certainly not under the direction of Segal cline, but ZAFT soldiers shot him, and i don't doubt that Patrick Zala would have taken it that far. I'm not sure wether or not Durandal would wipe out the naturals, but some of the things he does toward the end of Destiny are authoritarian to say the least.

More evidence of hipocrisy on Zaft's part, is their constant shouting of "Remember junius 7." while completely ignoring the atrocity that was their counterattack. Remember, they scattered N-jammers all over earth, and disrupted the entire power grid. That probably caused millions of deaths earth-side, and no one ever hears about that. Also, IIRC the Earth Alliance military never gave orders for a nuclear strike against a civillian target. IIRC they were fake orders sent by Blue Cosmos that authorized the nuking.

[AniThyng]

If the Atlantic Federation is supposed to be a militaristic state that actually launches wars of conquest, it would make more sense to put the president in a fortified command center, e.g., the Cheyenne Mountain Operations Center.

Er...right. Now I can't recall enough of Gundam SEED to say for certain if the president is at all times in the oval office, but it stands to reason unless they have reason to believe the continental united states is under direct military threat, the President can damn well stay in the white house and continue to pretend to be the duly elected civilian head of state while blue cosmos and the military command do thier stuff from thier fortified Alaska base or Cheyenne mountain itself or whatever. And I think you of all people also realise that while IRL Cheyenne may NORAD, it does not normally house other military commands either.

I'm not entirely sure military advisors would make much difference, other then solving nitpicky pedantic issues to do with military minitue that have very little to do with the actual plot and point of the series, which will remain retarded, unless we convert it into a 8th MS Team-sque story.

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

Would you perhaps be referring to implications that involve.. jackboots? Or perhaps an askew buddhist good luck charm?

I'm not accusing ZAFT of outright Nazism, certainly not under the direction of Segal cline, but ZAFT soldiers shot him, and i don't doubt that Patrick Zala would have taken it that far. I'm not sure wether or not Durandal would wipe out the naturals, but some of the things he does toward the end of Destiny are authoritarian to say the least.

More evidence of hipocrisy on Zaft's part, is their constant shouting of "Remember junius 7." while completely ignoring the atrocity that was their counterattack. Remember, they scattered N-jammers all over earth, and disrupted the entire power grid. That probably caused millions of deaths earth-side, and no one ever hears about that. Also, IIRC the Earth Alliance military never gave orders for a nuclear strike against a civillian target. IIRC they were fake orders sent by Blue Cosmos that authorized the nuking.

Patrick Zala was an insane fuckwit to begin with. All it took was the influence of another insane fuckwit to push him over the edge; Rau Le Creuset was a sneaky bastard like that.

As for Gilbert, seeing as he had both Requiem and a variant of GENESIS at his control at the very end of the Second Bloody Valentine War, he really could have wiped out all the Naturals if he wished. But then again, how could he dictate the collective destinies of humanity if he just wiped out the only really fertile part left? The reason why ZAFT has all those regulations regarding children is because Coordinator fertility rates are worse than those of wild pandas; they're a slowly dying offshoot of humanity.

Exactly 243,721 Coordinators died during the attack on Junius Seven. The folks at Sunrise never did come up with a more detailed backstory for the Bloody Valentine War, but it would indeed stand to reason that millions, if not billions of Naturals and Coordinators perished as a direct result of the N-Jammer drop. Forget about Junius Seven and remember the April Fool's Crisis.

Going back to Junius Seven, OMNI Enforcer as it was wanted to deploy its fleet to Junius City merely as a show of force. Of course, since Blue Cosmos belong to the same club as Zala and Le Creuset, they decided to swap out the fleet's orders at the last moment.

[Sidewinder]

If 'Gundam SEED' is supposed to be commentary on George W. Bush's conduct in the GWOT, it's a rather bad commentary. Seriously, no one at Sunrise thought of hiring military advisors, like the producers of the 'Metal Gear Solid' games?

oh, yeah what's wrong with it?

Ford Prefect and VF5SS will flame the shit out of me if I list my many complaints against the 'Gundam' series. I think it's safe to say my biggest complaint against 'Gundam SEED' and 'Gundam SEED Destiny' is the deployment of MS pilots under the age of 18. Seriously, they couldn't wait until Meyrin was at the age of consent before putting her aboard a fucking warship in a fucking war zone?

And what's with the "Wars are started and sustained because arms manufacturers profit from them" bullshit in 'Gundam SEED Destiny'? What, political ideology, racial tensions (with the exception of "Naturals vs Coordinators"), oil and other resources are no longer important to a government's decision to start a war? (I heard that arms manufacturers convinced the Pentagon to sustain American war efforts in Vietnam so they could continue to profit from that conflict, but let's be serious: political ideology, specifically American interests vs a vicious combo of Vietnamese nationalism and communist ideology, were the real reason the war lasted so fucking long.)