The Galactic Republic v. Chancellor Palpatine

[Publius]

Mace Windu said that he was on his way to "make sure" that the Supreme Chancellor lay aside his lawfully-obtained emergency powers, and had earlier indicated that he was prepared to commit treason (in those many words). When the Jedi High Council discussed the matter, they discussed the need to remove the Chancellor and take control to ensure a smooth transition. This is treasonous, and as it did not prosper, one may very well call it that.

Furthermore, the very words you have cited demonstrate the laughable nature of the pretext that they were acting in the right. Anakin's "information" that you claim "instantly changed" the mission consisted of the words "I think Chancellor Palpatine is a Sith Lord," which is hardly a solid basis to carry out such a momentous matter as removing an elected head of state from office. Furthermore, Anakin's information is baseless; Palpatine never demonstrated any use of the Force, and he never revealed any verifiable knowledge of Sithian arcana (he merely said that his master had taught him everything about the Force -- he neither said nor did anything that would actually identify him conclusively as being Force-sensitive).

You say that the Jedi had evidence that there was a Sith Lord. What is it? The fact that they were looking for a Sith Lord does not prove that there was one. They proceeded from the assumption that there must be two, and interpreted all subsequent information in light of this assumption. This is not logically sound. The fact that the Jedi speak as though Palpatine is the second Sith Lord is indicative of their unfounded assumption, not of evidence supporting it.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Perhaps, aside from furthering Anakin's fall, Sidious did have the ulterior motive of getting rid of the last real piece of evidence linking him to the Sith.

[Darth Massacrus]

Reading the Episode III novelization, it says that the Jedi Council had decided that they would ask Palpatine to return his powers to the Senate once General Greivous had been eliminated, and that they would arrest him as a pawn of the Sith if he did not. In fact, Obi-Wan had told Anakin earlier that the Council had discovered evidence that suggested that Sidious was amonst Palpatine's advisors or hiding in his Red Guard, and that they might need to move to protect Palpatine from Sidious' influence.

It was not until Anakin told Mace right as he was going to confront Palpatine that the Jedi knew Sidious was Palpatine all along. As the Jedi had every legal right to be at Palpatine's office when they were there (Palpatine was even expecting them, he says as much in the film), they were not at fault. They gave Palpatine a chance to surrender and go peacefully, but Palpatine decided to resist arrest and commit murder against 3 Jedi Masters.

[The Original Nex]

Reading the Episode III novelization, it says that the Jedi Council had decided that they would ask Palpatine to return his powers to the Senate once General Greivous had been eliminated, and that they would arrest him as a pawn of the Sith if he did not. In fact, Obi-Wan had told Anakin earlier that the Council had discovered evidence that suggested that Sidious was amonst Palpatine's advisors or hiding in his Red Guard, and that they might need to move to protect Palpatine from Sidious' influence.

They had no legal authority to arrest him as a "pawn of the Sith." Furthermore, the Council had no actual evidence whatsoever that this "Sidious" character they knew scant knowledge about was in fact a Sith.

It was not until Anakin told Mace right as he was going to confront Palpatine that the Jedi knew Sidious was Palpatine all along. As the Jedi had every legal right to be at Palpatine's office when they were there (Palpatine was even expecting them, he says as much in the film), they were not at fault. They gave Palpatine a chance to surrender and go peacefully, but Palpatine decided to resist arrest and commit murder against 3 Jedi Masters.

Again, they had no real EVIDENCE of this fact, not to mention a complete lack of authority to act.

It's almost as if you've completely ignored all of Publius' posts thus far...

[Darth Massacrus]

They had no legal authority to arrest him as a "pawn of the Sith." Furthermore, the Council had no actual evidence whatsoever that this "Sidious" character they knew scant knowledge about was in fact a Sith.

How many characters named Darth are not Sith??? Anyways, the Council did indeed know that Darth Sidious was a Sith (aside from the name, Dooku specifically said Sidious was a Sith Lord). Even if they had no evidence (which is untrue, as they knew Sidious was indeed influencing the war and was among Palptine and his advisors even before Anakin made it clear that Palpatine was Sidious), they could arrest Palpatine on charges of murder, as he did strike first.

[lord Martiya]

He strike first because he was resisting to an illegal aggression masked as an arrest. The only legal way for the Jedi was simply notify that Grevious was dead, recover and expose the corpse and hope that Palpatine relinquished his emergency power or that the Senate impeached him for not do this (improbable thing: Palpatine was very popular, and, as said by someone else in another topic, the Senate was surely impeach him only if he was caught at eating babies in the Senate hall), because they were only a religious order that at the time acted as paramilitary force and officer corps of the Republic Grand Army at the direct orders of the Chanchellor.

[Alexian Cale]

I forgot. What about his murder of the three Jedi in question?

[TC Pilot]

It's not murder when killing three traitorous individuals bent on overthrowing the legitimate government and assassinating the head of state.

It's not particularly hard to imagine one's life is forfeit when one chooses to draw a weapon on the head of state.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

It's not murder when killing three traitorous individuals bent on overthrowing the legitimate government and assassinating the head of state.

It's not particularly hard to imagine one's life is forfeit when one chooses to draw a weapon on the head of state.

Eh? They were bringing him into custody, not killing him. Which part of the movie stated that he was to be killed on the spot? They did say "You are under arrest."

[Stark]

They drew their weapons first and had no legal authority to arrest him. They are like anyone who comes up to me, pulls a gun, and says come this way: criminals.

[Darth Fanboy]

They drew their weapons first and had no legal authority to arrest him. They are like anyone who comes up to me, pulls a gun, and says come this way: criminals.

Devil's Advocate: That depends on how far their authority still went. Technically every one of those four Jedi Masters held the rank of "General" in the Republic Army and I would assume that they had the authority to take traitors into custody in that role.

Now with the Jedi Council under the authority of the Supreme Cahncellor's office, there might be a problem with that idea and still that doesn't mean that they would be able to win any kind of court case, or get support outside the Jedi Order. I'm still of the belief they'd be unable convict Palpatine given the political situation.

[Stark]

Dude, if a general showed up at the White House to arrest the President, he'd be escorted into custody by the SS. If they pulled a GUN, I'd expect them to be blown away or negotiated into custody. They had no legal authority and no evidence - that they pulled their weapons showed both their paranoia and Mace's intent to take any chance he had to murder Palpatine.

[Chris OFarrell]

The Jedi probably have VERY defined powers in dealing with the Sith, regardless of who they are. They pulled weapons sure, but its not any different then cops pulling guns. They didn't USE them until Palpitine jumped over and dices two Jedi Masters.

Mace didn't come in and say 'Yo die BITCH!' he said 'By the authority of the senate, you're under arrest chancellor'. That to me signifies that the Jedi operate under the Senates legal authority AND that that authority allows them great latitude in dealing with Sith Lords, probably exclusive latitude.

Cops often pull their guns or other weapons when moving up to arrest someone if they consider them a possible threat, it hardly means THEY Are breaking the law. They didn't USE their weapons until after Palpitine used his.

[Stark]

He can say what he wants, he already said in the movie that he would proceed without legal backing (suggesting they have none by default). They intended to remove the Chancellor based on at best nothing and at worst religious differences. Again, you dress up like a cop and pull a gun on the President, we'll see what happens. Threatening the head of state is retarded.

Since there are Sithian sects in the Republic who are not persecuted by the Jedi, I find it difficult to believe they have some superlegal right to just murder them.

[Alexian Cale]

Whether or not he's convicted of murder is arguable, but one thing is for damn certain: Palpatine would no longer be he behind-the-scenes Sith Lord enjoying anonymity. He's screwed in that department.

[TC Pilot]

Mace didn't come in and say 'Yo die BITCH!' he said 'By the authority of the senate, you're under arrest chancellor'. That to me signifies that the Jedi operate under the Senates legal authority AND that that authority allows them great latitude in dealing with Sith Lords, probably exclusive latitude.

What kind of nonsense is that? So because they ]did something, they must have the authority to do it? Is someone justified in murdering your family because they murdered your family?

One does not draw a gun on the head of state to peacefully arrest him. They threatened the chancellor and committed treason. Therefore, their lives are forfeit.

"Are you threatenng me, master Jedi?"

Cops often pull their guns or other weapons when moving up to arrest someone if they consider them a possible threat, it hardly means THEY Are breaking the law. They didn't USE their weapons until after Palpitine used his.

You may have a case if the Jedi actually had the authority to do what they did, or if the Jedi were police.

Did you even read Publius' post?

[Darth Fanboy]

They intended to remove the Chancellor based on at best nothing and at worst religious differences.

-Evidence from the Mechno Chair (from Labyrinth of Evil) that confirms the existence of Darth Sidious. this is the most damning because it would confirm a direct link between Palpatine and Nute Gunray. As i've said previously if any of those recordings were preserved for a trial it would be a key piece of evidence.

-Dooku's admission to Obi Wan Kenobi on Geonosis of the existence of a "Darth Sidious" controlling the Senate. At the time treated as a lie and discovered to be the truth upon the discovery of the Mechno Chair.

-Dooku's later admissions that he has become a Sith Lord. This directly connects the Sith Order to that of the Confederacy of Independent Systems, then at war with the Republic.

-Testimony from a chancellor's aide (Anakin Skywalker) that the Chancellor is a Sith Lord.

Again, you dress up like a cop and pull a gun on the President, we'll see what happens.

If I dress up like a cop, that would and should happen. But what if I actually was a cop and had just cause for said arrest? The only threat they made to Palpatine was to arrest him for treason. Mace Windu's statement is clear, "The Senate will decide your fate."

[Alexian Cale]

With all due respect, folks, it's as if you're arguing that even if Palpatine gets the charges dropped, like his identity as a Sith Lord will remain preserved and everything will be hunky-doory as if it never happened. That's clearly not true. Like it or not, the Jedi have the means at their disposal to prove that Palpatine is a Sith Lord (the three dead bodies in his office would be evidence). His moonlighting days as Sidious are over the second he walks into the courtroom. Now his term as Chancellor and Emperor? Yeah, I can agree that he's capable of moving on. But he's still gonna take heat from it.

[Tiriol]

I'd like to draw everyone's attention to the fact that the Jedi do have the authority to make an arrest. Clone Wars: Best Blades (in collected album 5) has the Jedi arrest an unscrupolous Senator in front of the entire Senate for conspiracy to commit multiple murders; the Jedi also sent Agen Kolar to arrest Quinlan Vos (although that turned out to be a ruse) in the same comic book series for suspected loyalty to the Confederacy. While it could be argued that the last one dealt with a renegade member of the Order, the reason for the whole arrest scene was because the officially Master Vos was suspected of being a double agent in the employ of Count Dooku and the Separatists.

The arrest of the Senator could, of course, be explained away by claiming that the Senator was a war criminal for his callous actions that led to a devastating battle; and thus under the Order's jurisdiction during war; however, Lord Sidious most certainly would also fit under that title.

Master Windu, as has been pointed out, initially sought to give Palpatine over to the courts of justice for trial (apparently seeing three of his comrades killed in cold blood and fighting against a proven Sith Lord changed his mind; it is possible that the Jedi have a wide range of authority in dealings with those who utilize the dark side and the only expection so far has been Ulic Qel-Droma, who was put on trial before the assembled Senate; even Darth Revan was dealt with by the Jedi). Of course, the possibility of actual sentence would depend on not only how popular and influential the Supreme Chancellor was, but also on how much evidence the Jedi could gather and present and how much the courts would trust the Jedi's word. The Clone Wars had, after all, eroded the officials' faith in the Jedi (and one Gran Senator even openly accused the Jedi as possible supporters of Count Dooku and his Separatist movement).

[Stark]

What *is* the special status of Jedi as generals during the war? They're used as generals, but they aren't all generals and there are generals that aren't Jedi. Posting Jedi to positions of authority doesn't necessarily mean the whole Order has special status. They are apparently given authority on a case-by-case basis, as suggested by Publius and somewhat backed up by Tiriol's examples. I'd imagine given their dubious position legally their arrests are as acceptable as far as the Senate supports them, which is extremely unlikely in this case without further evidence.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

There is this question I like to pose. Technically, Darth Sidious belongs to a Sith Order that declared war on the Republic a thousand years earlier. In all technicality, that state of war still exists. Might this Darth Sidious then be tried for being a sworn enemy of the Republic?

[Stark]

Do you really want to try to prove a thousand-year-old declaration of war, along with total continuity and responsibility to Sidious? They couldn't even prove shit he HAD done, let alone shit he might be guilty of by association over milennia.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Do you really want to try to prove a thousand-year-old declaration of war, along with total continuity and responsibility to Sidious? They couldn't even prove shit he HAD done, let alone shit he might be guilty of by association over milennia.

I think the question here is to prove that Sidious is descended from that same Sith Order. Capturing him and his data files might provide the evidence. The question of course, is whether the Jedi had the authority to initiate the arrest and obtain the warrant to investigate his articles.

[Stark]

I don't see the point in introducing shit that will almost certainly never fly when they can't prove the actual real crimes he's committed.

[Darth Fanboy]

Picking up in Labyrnith of Evil after Anakin and R2 have unlocked and disarmed the Mechno Chair.

At the same time, a high resolution blue hologram projected from the chair's holoplate.

R2-D2 mewled in alarm.

And to the meter-high figure in the hooded cloak, the unmistakable voice of Viceroy Nute Gunray was saying:

Yes, yes, ofcourse. Trust that I will see to it personally, my Lord Sidious.

The Jedi, and the GAR have a recording of Sidious directly speaking to Nute Gunray!

So technically it isn't illegal for the Chancellor to be a Sith, but outing him as Darth Sidious combined with this evidence is enough to show that Palpatine is guilty of treason! Is treason no longer a "real crime"?