NFL 08 Thread

[Master of Ossus]

As far as the 2 timeouts before a kick thing goes, that's fuckign self explanatory.

Moreover, calling two consecutive timeouts is ALWAYS a penalty, even if you're not doing it to ice a kicker.

[Medic]

God damnit, I work with a guy from fucking Boston, can the Patriots just LOSE already!? I go back to work in about 10 days and I don't wanna have to suffer his intolerable, insufferable, smug ass when I get back.

GO STEELERS! (jets, dolphins and giants too, but Steelers look to have the best shot)

[Falkenhayn]

Doesn't a false start happen before the play, though?

What's the relevance? You can't call two consecutive time outs before a kick, or else its 15 yards and an auto 1st. The NFL has decided before that certain actions in discrete situations deserve special penalty.

If you decide to go for it on fourth down, but commit a penalty, the other team ought to be able to decide whether you ought to talk a penalty in yards, or turn the ball over. To compel someone to take the yards and give the offending team a penalty in yards ignores case-by-case circumstances which the whole "accept" or "decline" choice is designed to address.

But a false start, like a delay of game, actually ends the play before it starts--so there IS no play to begin with.

There are penalties (offsides, illegal formation) that continue through the play, because they technically occur when the ball is snapped. However, penalties that occur before the ball is snapped prevent a play from even starting (also why encroachment results in whistling the play dead). It was the right call, but it's very unfortunate for the Ravens, who caught NO breaks in that game.

I know its the right call. I'm thinking that if somebody goes for it on 4th down, the difference between pre-snap and post snap should fuck off, as the defense should not be compelled to refuse possession because you screwed up.

[Falkenhayn]

As far as the 2 timeouts before a kick thing goes, that's fuckign self explanatory.

Moreover, calling two consecutive timeouts is ALWAYS a penalty, even if you're not doing it to ice a kicker.

Acknowledging that both of you caught me talking out my ass. Mia culpa.

[Havok]

Apparently, this is what had Bart Scott all hot and bothered and not the play calling.

Ummm no, that article is talking about Samari Rolle. Scott was pissed about officiating.

Here you go.

[Falkenhayn]

I've got to cool off about this. Points conceeded.

[Havok]

As far as the 2 timeouts before a kick thing goes, that's fuckign self explanatory.

Moreover, calling two consecutive timeouts is ALWAYS a penalty, even if you're not doing it to ice a kicker.

That is a pretty recent rule addition though. As far as the penalty part goes. You used to be able to call the timeout and the refs would just ignore it.

[Qwerty 42]

I remember in the NFC Championship last year Sean Payton was furious because Grossman attempted to call a second timeout and wasn't flagged.

[CmdrWilkens]

The holding penalty was bullshit but the Ravens just tried to find ways to lose. For the first time in forever the Offense actually came out big, they rolled up 157 yards on the ground and Boller actually had a better passer rating than Brady. They were leading and the Pats were back inside their 30 with under 3:00 to play. Brady had been harrassed and picked off all night yet suddenly they couldn't do shit against him. Seriously for a D that has been bitching (rightfully so for the most part) they just didn't show up when the game counted just like against Clevland where the Offense finally put them ahead and they surrender a game tying drive. For all the talk of "hard-hitting D" the Ravens are nearly modestly good at best.

[Qwerty 42]

I think, if anyone's going to pull it off, it might just be Pittsburgh. They even said on MNF that the only team to blitz more than the Ravens is the Steelers, and Roethlisberger is having a career year.

[Elfdart]

There are penalties (offsides, illegal formation) that continue through the play, because they technically occur when the ball is snapped. However, penalties that occur before the ball is snapped prevent a play from even starting (also why encroachment results in whistling the play dead). It was the right call, but it's very unfortunate for the Ravens, who caught NO breaks in that game.

Encroachment is only whistled dead if the defensive player makes contact when he jumps or lines up offsides.

I know its the right call. I'm thinking that if somebody goes for it on 4th down, the difference between pre-snap and post snap should fuck off, as the defense should not be compelled to refuse possession because you screwed up.

I agree. The problem with a false start nullifying a play "before" it begins on 4th down is that it encourages cheating. You move early and don't get caught? You have an unfair advantage -particularly on 4th and short. If you do get caught, big deal. You can just try again. On 4th down, false start and other offensive procedure fouls should be continuing action fouls.

Did I mention how much I despise calling timeouts to "ice" kickers? If I had my way, it would be a 10-yard penalty with the ball spotted on the hash mark or middle of the field, according to the kicking team's desires.

[Master of Ossus]

There are penalties (offsides, illegal formation) that continue through the play, because they technically occur when the ball is snapped. However, penalties that occur before the ball is snapped prevent a play from even starting (also why encroachment results in whistling the play dead). It was the right call, but it's very unfortunate for the Ravens, who caught NO breaks in that game.

Encroachment is only whistled dead if the defensive player makes contact when he jumps or lines up offsides.

Which is the definition of encroachment, is it not? Offsides is just when they enter the neutral zone but don't touch anyone.

I agree. The problem with a false start nullifying a play "before" it begins on 4th down is that it encourages cheating. You move early and don't get caught? You have an unfair advantage -particularly on 4th and short. If you do get caught, big deal. You can just try again. On 4th down, false start and other offensive procedure fouls should be continuing action fouls.

But it does hurt you to get caught: you lose 5 yards. If the Pats had made the fourth down play on the false start, it would've been called back and they would've had to do it again, this time backed up by five yards.

Did I mention how much I despise calling timeouts to "ice" kickers? If I had my way, it would be a 10-yard penalty with the ball spotted on the hash mark or middle of the field, according to the kicking team's desires.

I have never understood why people complain about icing the kicker. Every kicker who's playing today has grown up understanding that they have to be able to kick in pressure situations.

[Dark Flame]

Brady had been harrassed and picked off all night yet suddenly they couldn't do shit against him. Seriously for a D that has been bitching (rightfully so for the most part) they just didn't show up when the game counted

It's the curse of the 2 minute defense. A lot of defensive coordinators decide that with less than 2 minutes (or whatever happens to be left) there is nothing to be gained by blitzing. Then when the 3 or 4 man rush achieves no pressure, good QB's like Brady sit there and pick you apart 30+ yards downfield. It's the whole concept of the prevent defense; it's flawed in principal and is not effective for more than a few plays at a time.

[Elfdart]

Which is the definition of encroachment, is it not? Offsides is just when they enter the neutral zone but don't touch anyone.

Encroachment is also lining up offsides.

But it does hurt you to get caught: you lose 5 yards. If the Pats had made the fourth down play on the false start, it would've been called back and they would've had to do it again, this time backed up by five yards.

On 4th down under normal conditions, you just punt. Getting backed up 5 yards on 4th and short is no big deal if you have to go for it anyway. If you're on the OL, you know you've got nothing to lose, so why not flinch and hope the ref doesn't notice? If you're close to the end zone, a 5-yard penalty actually helps, since it gives the QB that much more room to throw.

I have never understood why people complain about icing the kicker. Every kicker who's playing today has grown up understanding that they have to be able to kick in pressure situations.

It's not about the kicker. It's about the flow of the game. All the tension mounts for the last gasp field goal and -BZZZZZT!- never mind. We'll be back after this commercial. It's like watching a movie that stops for a commercial in the middle of the climactic scene. Which is to say, it sucks.

Brady had been harrassed and picked off all night yet suddenly they couldn't do shit against him. Seriously for a D that has been bitching (rightfully so for the most part) they just didn't show up when the game counted

It's the curse of the 2 minute defense. A lot of defensive coordinators decide that with less than 2 minutes (or whatever happens to be left) there is nothing to be gained by blitzing. Then when the 3 or 4 man rush achieves no pressure, good QB's like Brady sit there and pick you apart 30+ yards downfield. It's the whole concept of the prevent defense; it's flawed in principal and is not effective for more than a few plays at a time.

I'd like to see someone dust off a golden oldie from the days of Tom Landry: the 4:0. He would put his defense in dime coverage or a 4 DL/7DB formation. The difference being that one or two of the DBs (sometimes more) would delay blitz. This is a high risk move, since any O-lineman would plaster any DB head-on. The advantages are (a) surprise, (b) DBs have a shot at slipping through smaller openings and (c) a DB with a running charge who hits a QB has a good chance at knocking his block off.

[Havok]

There are penalties (offsides, illegal formation) that continue through the play, because they technically occur when the ball is snapped. However, penalties that occur before the ball is snapped prevent a play from even starting (also why encroachment results in whistling the play dead). It was the right call, but it's very unfortunate for the Ravens, who caught NO breaks in that game.

Encroachment is only whistled dead if the defensive player makes contact when he jumps or lines up offsides.

Which is the definition of encroachment, is it not? Offsides is just when they enter the neutral zone but don't touch anyone.

IIRC, Offsides is when you jump too soon and the play starts, but they don't stop the play. Neutral Zone infraction is when you line up in the zone and the play starts. Encroachment is when you jump into the NZ and draw an offensive player into a false start or touch an offensive player, and Unabated to the QB is when you go so far offsides that it is just silly, or your OS, NZI or E gets you dangerously close to the QB, all of which kill the play.
I'll have to double check, but I think that is it.

[Havok]

The holding penalty was bullshit but the Ravens just tried to find ways to lose. For the first time in forever the Offense actually came out big, they rolled up 157 yards on the ground and Boller actually had a better passer rating than Brady. They were leading and the Pats were back inside their 30 with under 3:00 to play. Brady had been harrassed and picked off all night yet suddenly they couldn't do shit against him. Seriously for a D that has been bitching (rightfully so for the most part) they just didn't show up when the game counted just like against Clevland where the Offense finally put them ahead and they surrender a game tying drive. For all the talk of "hard-hitting D" the Ravens are nearly modestly good at best.

Damn, how many times do you want them to stop the Pats on 4th and whatever? They did it twice and both times they got the worst possible outcome of the play; an illegal timeout that should not have been honored and the Patriots false starting on a play in which the penalty can not be declined in order to get the result of the play, which was a loss of yards and turnover on downs.
Please don't say that the Raven's D didn't "show up". They played the Patriots harder and better than any team this year. Even the HORRIBLE offense showed up.

[Darth Fanboy]

Damn, how many times do you want them to stop the Pats on 4th and whatever? They did it twice and both times they got the worst possible outcome of the play; an illegal timeout that should not have been honored

There was nothing illegal about the time out, it was stupid as hell but there was nothing illegal about it.

and the Patriots false starting on a play in which the penalty can not be declined in order to get the result of the play, which was a loss of yards and turnover on downs.

The play was dead before it even started, you can't be sure that had the whistle not blown it would have been the same outcome.

Please don't say that the Raven's D didn't "show up". They played the Patriots harder and better than any team this year. Even the HORRIBLE offense showed up.

This is true, but they failed in the clutch.

[Havok]

Damn, how many times do you want them to stop the Pats on 4th and whatever? They did it twice and both times they got the worst possible outcome of the play; an illegal timeout that should not have been honored

There was nothing illegal about the time out, it was stupid as hell but there was nothing illegal about it.

Uh, actually yeah there is. Assistant coaches can't call timeouts. It should have been ignored. The refs should have had a discussion and called it the proper way. And no it wouldn't have been a 15 yard penalty, because that only applies to calling two time outs in a row.

and the Patriots false starting on a play in which the penalty can not be declined in order to get the result of the play, which was a loss of yards and turnover on downs.

The play was dead before it even started, you can't be sure that had the whistle not blown it would have been the same outcome.

The play was dead, but no whistle was blown and it was played through. Heath Evans was stopped for a two yard loss.

Please don't say that the Raven's D didn't "show up". They played the Patriots harder and better than any team this year. Even the HORRIBLE offense showed up.

This is true, but they failed in the clutch.

Yeah, they failed, but I say they got jobbed.

[Qwerty 42]

For this week coming up:

Chicago at Washington
St. Louis at Cincinnati
Dallas at Detroit
Oakland at Green Bay
Miami at Buffalo
Tampa Bay at Houston
San Diego at Tennessee
Carolina at Jacksonville
New York Giants at Philadelphia
Arizona at Seattle
Minnesota at San Francisco
Pittsburgh at New England
Cleveland at New York Jets
Kansas City at Denver
Indianapolis at Baltimore
New Orleans at Atlanta

[CmdrWilkens]

The holding penalty was bullshit but the Ravens just tried to find ways to lose. For the first time in forever the Offense actually came out big, they rolled up 157 yards on the ground and Boller actually had a better passer rating than Brady. They were leading and the Pats were back inside their 30 with under 3:00 to play. Brady had been harrassed and picked off all night yet suddenly they couldn't do shit against him. Seriously for a D that has been bitching (rightfully so for the most part) they just didn't show up when the game counted just like against Clevland where the Offense finally put them ahead and they surrender a game tying drive. For all the talk of "hard-hitting D" the Ravens are nearly modestly good at best.

Damn, how many times do you want them to stop the Pats on 4th and whatever? They did it twice and both times they got the worst possible outcome of the play; an illegal timeout that should not have been honored and the Patriots false starting on a play in which the penalty can not be declined in order to get the result of the play, which was a loss of yards and turnover on downs.
Please don't say that the Raven's D didn't "show up". They played the Patriots harder and better than any team this year. Even the HORRIBLE offense showed up.

I didn't say they didn't show up i said they didn't show up when it counted. The pats shouldn't have made it across midfield in the weather conditions. They had to pass, they were out of timeouts, Baltimore was getting pressure with 4 man rushes all evening and then suddenly for the last drive is stopped.

Now that doesn't mean that the officials honoring the timeout wasn't bullshit or that the holding penalty wasn't bullshit (they were) but when the offense gets you 24 points at home in shitty weather good defenses WIN. The NFL has bullshit calls all the time and it doesn't take away from the fact that the Ravens have been robbed twice this season (the Referee at the Browns game whistled the game over BEFORE he called the field goal good which means that the ruling on the field WAS changed which is not allowed). Basically B-more has been shafted twice by the refs (the field goal and the timeout that wasn't) on things that were not judgement calls so I'm sympathetic. At the same time a team that wants to win doesn't let their opponent have the chance and the Ravens held the Pats off all night except for two drives but they were the drives that counted most: the pats first of the 2nd half where they got even and kept the game tight and the last one. So was the officiating shitty: hell yes. Did Baltimore win the game and get robbed: sure. Does it change the fact that they should have mugged Brady on 4th and 6 or any of the dozen other drive stopping opportunities they had? Nope.

They let slip just as many opportunities as they were robbed that was the point I was making.

[Darth Fanboy]

Uh, actually yeah there is. Assistant coaches can't call timeouts. It should have been ignored. The refs should have had a discussion and called it the proper way. And no it wouldn't have been a 15 yard penalty, because that only applies to calling two time outs in a row.

*Looks that up* Huh, that's crazy never knew that. Apparently added in in 2004. My bad.

The play was dead, but no whistle was blown and it was played through. Heath Evans was stopped for a two yard loss.

The play was dead, the flag was thrown. can't change the rules.

Yeah, they failed, but I say they got jobbed.

Oh they got jobbed, I agree, but when it all comes down to it, The Ravens were just as responsible.

but Boller didn't get jobbed into throwing that interception on a drive that might have put them up two scores instead. They didn't get jobbed into letting Brady scramble for a first down on a 4th and 6. they didn't get jobbed when they lost their cool plus the offsides and ended up being unable to return that kickoff (Yeah they were pissed, but you can't let that get you on the field and hurt your team's chances.) The Ravens didn't get jobbed when they wasted time trying to move down the middle of the field right away on that last drive.


Also

Can things get any worse for the Redskins?

[Chardok]

Can things get any worse for the Redskins?

Yes. They could be 0-12

[Chardok]

Found this on Miamidolphins.com

CAPTION TIME!


The acclamations that I had ated Latchley's Pokemans is toadally false.

[The Dark]

For what reason? Just the two timeouts in a row, or did the ref decide that multiple icings was bad?

Two timeouts in a row to ice the kicker is a 15-yard penalty. It turned a tough 51 yarder into a 36 yard gimme.

However, Gibbs asked the line judge if he could call two in a row, and the judge said yes. However, the rule states:

Note: The Referee (or another official) will notify the Head Coach (i) that two charged time outs
by the same team in the same dead ball period are not permitted, and (ii) when he has
exhausted his three charged team time outs in a half.

Additionally:

Note: If an attempt is made to call a timeout in such situations, the officials shall not grant a
timeout; instead, play will continue, and a penalty will be called, with customary enforcement.
If a timeout is inadvertently granted, the penalty shall also be enforced. See 12-3-1-v.

Thus, the officials screwed up twice on that play, first by not informing Gibbs that it would be a penalty, and second by stopping the play to assess the penalty. Even if he had been informed and still called it, the play would have had to proceed, and the penalty be assessed after the second 51-yard kick. That officiating team should be suspended until they demonstrate that they know the rules - it's bad enough when coaches don't know the rules, but when the zebras don't know them, they shouldn't have that job.

[Elfdart]

Well the NFL did what it always does when the zebras ruin a game with bad calls:

Fine those who complain about it. Rolle, McCallister and Mason to the tune of $15,000 each and Bart Scott $25,000. Maybe the money could be used to provide Seeing Eye Dogs to the officials.

This week's winners:

Bengals
Lions
Packers
Bills
Buccaneers
Chargers
Jaguars
Eagles
Seahawks
Vikings
Browns
Donkeys
Patriots
Ravens
Saints