White People = Racist, apparently

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brianeyci
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Post by brianeyci »

RIPP wrote:Trying to defend the statement by with he didn't say all is a red herring. He didn't need to say all, it was implied, it didn't need to be directly said.
Try this out for size: it's implied he means the black community and black leaders, not every individual black. No duh.

Do you honestly think that Wong thinks that all blacks are whiners, all blacks, down to each and every individual black?

His positions are public and adjectives are weasel words. If he was a public official, afraid of offending people he'd use weasel words. He isn't. Luckily he knows that anybody with a brain will interpret that as black leaders and the black community, and he doesn't have to go around with weasel words.
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Post by RIPP_n_WIPE »

I was not saying that Mr. Wong thought that all blacks were whiners. I was saying that his statement implied that that was so and thus should have been amended. And all adjectives are not weasel words. They can be useful in increasing the accuracy of statement. For example if Mr. Wong had said "The majority of black leaders and the black community are whiners..." would have been more precise (though I would still disagree with it) and more in line with what you claim he meant. The two statements are different and I think if you said either of them in two different groups, the group that heard "blacks in america are whiners" would think that the speaker was indeed referring to all blacks.

I do not believe that Mr. Wong was intended to say that all black people are whiners. My response never was directed what I thought were his thoughts only at his statement. I am saying that his statement implied (at least from my interpretation) that all black people were whiners. This could be a simple difference of use of the language combined with my ignorance of Mr. Wongs style of speech. Or he simply could have made and error. That's why I suggested he lessen his statements scope as opposed to attacking him based on what he said.

I find it very queer that you seem to equate the use of adjectives with weasel wording. Perhaps you have their definitions or usages confused. An adjective, as I mentioned, can be used to increase the accuracy of a statement or make it more complete. A weasel word tries to either distract from a statement or add unnecessary validity to a statement to make it seem real.

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Post by RIPP_n_WIPE »

EDIT: My response never was directed what I thought were his thoughts only at his statement.

should be

My response never was directed to what I thought were his thoughts, only at his statement.

I am the hammer, I am the right hand of my Lord. The instrument of His will and the gauntlet about His fist. The tip of His spear, the edge of His sword. I am His wrath just as he is my shield. I am the bane of His foes and the woe of the treacherous. I am the end.


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Post by Justforfun000 »

Since I've been involved in this thread as well, I'll comment...I have to admit that RIPP_N_WIDP has a very valid point.

As far as board culture goes, I know Mike...lots of people know Mike and they know very well he is not a racist in any way, shape or form. Could he have worded his statement better? Yes. Almost everyone here know exactly what he meant though , but that's the price of familiarity. The exceptions looking in see it differently from those really in the know.

For 90+% of the people here it doesn't need to be explained. He's referring to the national face of many black Americans which is a completely different subset of people than ACTUAL black Americans.

So let that shit go because it is truly irrelevant. We know the man. He doesn't have to defend his motives, feelings, philosophies, etc. When you've posted enough corroborating evidence to support your personality, people should first take on faith the integrity of the person.

Alright. Back to the real issue now that Mike's statement has exploded into this bugaboo..

Everybody calm the fuck down for a second. Most people on this board ALSO deserve a general latitude of tolerance and assumption of decency. Racism, mindless hatred, homophobia, bigotry, etc. etc..has been decryed from the get go among this community, so stop trying to imply there are nuggets of these attitudes lurking in people at the drop of a dime. (Not pointing fingers or naming names), but It's insulting and highly improper based on the average persons presence here.

The young/mature issue is a totally separate thing that I'm not getting involved in. I haven't posted enough recently to comment on Elite Pwnage, or other young members and their experience, so by all means hash that angle out.. 8)
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Post by Big Phil »

brianeyci wrote:Let me ask YOU and SanchezWhaler a question. If he had explained what kind of racism he's experienced, would you have accepted it? Of course not. If he mentioned some guys called him nigger, or mentioned he was marginalized, you guys would have laughed in his face. There would have been no standard that would satisfy you, short of a court decision proclaiming it racism, because you had it in your minds a person a certain age cannot experience racism.
Would you stop trying to tell me what I'm thinking. EP is a 15 year old black kid; if he'd said people had called him a nigger or thrown rocks at him or whatever, of course I'd believe him. I took issue with the assumption that his experience is the same as that of all black people, and that he can speak for all black people.
brianeyci wrote:Your guys statement that most high school students do not experience racism is a total assumption I suspect to be false and doesn't match my experience in high school. Or correction, any minority experience in high school. What black man has not been called nigger? What black man has not been ignored by another more well off group? This is not an extraordinary claim to make and your demanding evidence is like demanding evidence I crossed the street yesterday.
Are you talking to me here, or someone else? You keep bring up that we're denying EP's personal experiences because we don't like him, but that's not what I've been saying at all. Maybe you should take a step back and calm down, because right now you're not reading things clearly.
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Post by DavidEC »

Did anyone happen to read an Economist article several months ago in which they say black people are consistently more socially conservative than their leaders and general representatives?
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Post by Big Phil »

DavidEC wrote:Did anyone happen to read an Economist article several months ago in which they say black people are consistently more socially conservative than their leaders and general representatives?
That's shouldn't be a surprise to anyone; Hispanics are the same way. Of course, the fact that socially conservative whites don't really like blacks or Hispanics doesn't help things, even though these broad groups do tend to have a lot more to unify them than they do to separate them.
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Post by Metatwaddle »

Going back to the OP and what this has turned into:

Goddammit, I'm embarrassed to say that I go to UD now. I thought of posting this article when it first came out a month ago, but I wasn't sure it was notable enough (or that I wanted to make my school look bad).

This diversity program was one of those well-intentioned things that just backfired. I don't know where they got the idea to use training material that said all white people were racist. I mean, you could certainly say we live in a systematically racist society that gives white people certain privileges. But saying "every white person is racist" is not actually what racism is, and never has been.

Everything about the diversity program was stupid. The training material was horrible, the questions they were asking students were invasive, and they had RAs doing the whole thing - 20-year-old RAs, who know no more about race than most of the students, except for the stuff they learned from the training packets, which was total shit. I don't know if it crossed the line into indoctrination or not. It definitely stepped on people's First Amendment rights, I think.

The distressing part, though, was that the professors who got FIRE's attention were even more wrong than the people running the diversity program. I know Linda Gottfredson. She's a flaming racist. She's one of those so-called IQ experts that thinks blacks are genetically less intelligent than whites. She gets funding from the Pioneer Fund. Black student groups campaigned against her tenure in 1989-1990. Jan Blits, the other professor, appears to agree with her; I always hear their names mentioned together. I can't help but wonder if she alerted FIRE, and got the program all this media attention, to discredit not only the bullshit tactics of the program, but also people who work sincerely and competently to combat racism, which she doesn't think is a problem.

Anyway, yeah, it all sucked. Nearly everything that could go wrong with this program went wrong: RAs didn't know how to be sensitive and non-invasive, viewpoints were squashed, things that were supposed to be optional became mandatory. The only exception was that the President, Patrick Harker, stopped it just as the story was leaking, rather than backing up Michael Gilbert (the VP for ResLife or Student Affairs or something), who had defended the program to the press the previous day. Harker's new and if he didn't inherit the program itself, he inherited the people who thought it was a good idea. I was impressed with his response.

But I'm still left with the feeling that schools should at least try to teach students about racism and white privilege, if only so that we don't get more Linda Gottfredsons in the future.
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Post by brianeyci »

SancheztheWhaler wrote:Would you stop trying to tell me what I'm thinking. EP is a 15 year old black kid; if he'd said people had called him a nigger or thrown rocks at him or whatever, of course I'd believe him. I took issue with the assumption that his experience is the same as that of all black people, and that he can speak for all black people.
He already said he experienced racism retard. Maybe you would like it with a cherry on top?

You took issue with his age dingbat. His A-G-E.
Are you talking to me here, or someone else? You keep bring up that we're denying EP's personal experiences because we don't like him, but that's not what I've been saying at all. Maybe you should take a step back and calm down, because right now you're not reading things clearly.
Yes, the "calm the fuck down" speech. My post came after Oni: it's obvious I was talking to him but you're trying to make it seem as if I'm talking to an imaginary friend :roll:.

He said he experienced racism, and you said bullshit because of his... age.

Tenure eh Discombobulated? How did she get tenure without the support of the student body? Disgusting. Yes, the sad part is that the real issue, that racism is a problem, gets squashed. Look at these motherfuckers who say that racism isn't a problem unless you're fired from a job or something: they don't recognize that it exists at all levels. This will add more fuel to the fire for white whiners who think that affirmative action is wrong, which is the greatest tragedy. The one good thing about the commercialization of education is to get tenure now, you need student support, and a controversal professor without the support of his students would never get it now because the customer is always right. One person mentioned what should I do if I'm white, go to rallies or whatever (someone earlier in the thread can't remember after this AGE RED HERRING was brought up) well, no not really. But evil just needs good to do nothing to triumph, and if you accept the premise that white people have it easier in life, maybe with the extra time come out and say something about racism or do something small to fight racism. There's no way to deny the privilege, but at least whites of all walks of life can come out and state for the record they recognize and are against systemic racism, which is not the same as admitting one is a racist.
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Post by Diomedes »

The definition of racism they were using comes from Sociology, and not only is it painfully racist itself, it's politically foolish. I disagree with the definition of racism used in Sociology vehemently, but I do recognise that most of the young activist types who support it are genuinely trying to make a positive difference. The problem is, they're too stupid to realise that redefining terms like this, in such a way that the meaning better reflects their agenda but also maintains the power of the term that comes from the common understanding, is sabotaging their own cause.

You ask the average person what racism is, and they'll give you a definition that resembles that of the dictionary. Discrimination on the basis of race, or the belief that one race is superior to others. Being called a racist is fairly high up the list of the worst things you can call a person, a few ranks shy of paedophile perhaps. Because of what racism means to most people, it is a powerful word.

The race activists and sociologists who redefine racism change its meaning, saying that it's the privelige afforded to the majority and the manifestation of the power disparity between the majority and minorities and therefore, it is an exclusively white practise (since white people hold more power etc) and a universally white attribute. Even if a black person beats up a white person, calling them honkey and cracker all the while (as laughable as those terms are, they're a good indicator of racism), he's not being racist, he cant be, he doesnt have the institutional, society-level power to be racist. Fuck that bullshit.

These young activists go around using their warped definition of racism to try and change people who are using the common/dicitonary definition of racism. How can they not see that this is a recipe for disaster? They want the advantage of their meaning of the word, with the common perception of the power of the word, and all they do is alienate people by insulting them with one of the worst labels you can apply to a person. Either they're too stupid to realise that most people arent using their definition of the word, or they think that by offending people those people will become more amenable to their message. Fucking morons.

The other part of their message that pisses me off is the "white privilege" term. It seems to imply something unfair that white people get, when more accurately I think it should be called minority disadvantage. There are some things that white people get, that white people and all people should get, but that minorities dont. The problem isnt that white people get these "priveliges", but that minorities dont. Some people might call it a semantic difference, but when you want to appeal to the majority, white people, many of whom dont think about or understand the issue, to be most effective you need to think about how to communicate your message.

Of course, when you look at things like White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack many of the items on the list are unavoidable manifestations of a majority/minority situation anyway. Of course there are genuine issues here, but that list sems designed to "provoke" people in a way that isnt actually conducive to positive change - the number of times I've seen that list make people angry, rather than sympathetic/enlightened or whatever... well, I've never seen it help the race activist or whatever cause.
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Post by Oni Koneko Damien »

brianeyci wrote:Let me ask YOU and SanchezWhaler a question. If he had explained what kind of racism he's experienced, would you have accepted it? Of course not.
Stop the presses! Apparently brianeyci can read minds now. Okay then, Mr. Telepath, can you predict what I'm going to think/say next before I say it?

...

...

...go fuck yourself you presumptious ass.
If he mentioned some guys called him nigger, or mentioned he was marginalized, you guys would have laughed in his face. There would have been no standard that would satisfy you, short of a court decision proclaiming it racism, because you had it in your minds a person a certain age cannot experience racism.
Alright asshole, back up these claims right now, right the fuck now, because otherwise you're doing nothing but telling lies about our character, and outright claiming that you know what we think better than we do.
Your guys statement that most high school students do not experience racism is a total assumption I suspect to be false and doesn't match my experience in high school.


Hooray! Personal anecdote for the win!

...oh wait, that doesn't change anything and does nothing to help prove your point, nevermind, continue fapping to your lack of evidence, strawmen, and outright lies.
What black man has not been called nigger? What black man has not been ignored by another more well off group? This is not an extraordinary claim to make and your demanding evidence is like demanding evidence I crossed the street yesterday.
Translation: "Waaaaaah, quit picking on him, waaaah. Who cares if he didn't back up any of his claims and was acting like a retarded high schooler, standards of evidence don't apply to them and we should just take their word on it, regardless of how much reality speaks otherwise, waaah!"

So in the end, your entire reason we should just take his word on it is because... you think we should.

Wow, I'm stunned by your logic.
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Post by Oni Koneko Damien »

Oh, and for the record,
brianeyci wrote:Let me ask YOU and SanchezWhaler a question. If he had explained what kind of racism he's experienced, would you have accepted it? Of course not.
Earlier, I wrote:If he actually presents evidence to the contrary, I'll gladly change my position.

...

I'll say it again, *all* he has to do is back up his claim that he has valid experience with racism.
Even earlier, I wrote:...because all you have to do to defeat it is simply relate some personal experiences that show, yeah, you do have the fucking experience to pass judgment on it. You know, that simple thing known as 'backing up your claims'.
So, I'll just add that to the growing pile of lies you've already said about me, which include:

- Apparently I said no one can understand racism beneath a certain age.

- Apparently I 'belittle' racism.

- That I'm just jumping on an 'anti-Elite' bandwagon, rather than calling out someone for being a moron, which is what I actually did.

I'm still waiting for any evidence to either support these, or a concession, because if you refuse to either accept, refute, or even acknowledge the fact that you're telling what are evidently direct lies about me, you are pretty much a worthless little shitstain.
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Post by brianeyci »

According to you fucking guys, he had to launder his personal traumatic experiences all over the fucking Internet before you believed him. Here's a hint: you initially dismissed Elite's claim to racism solely based on his AGE so it is not a far stretch to say you would have dismissed ANYTHING he said based on his age, if of course you were logical and followed the initial premise that there's an age barrier to "real" racism. It's too bad you guys don't realize that you retards.

If a black man says he has experienced racism before, end of story, especially on the Internet. I ask you again, are you a visible minority, and do you truly believe that the claim to have experienced racism is EXTRAORDINARY and requires further justification beyond simply saying it happened? You fucking ignorant cunts.

At first, in his FIRST post, he did not claim superiority based on his experience. He only claimed that not all black people were whiners, which a personal ancedote is sufficient to do because guess what, he's fucking black. One counter-example is sufficient to disprove the universal case. By the way, my personal ancedote has as much validity as your ASSUMPTION that the majority of visible minority high school students don't experience racism, which by the way is fucking wrong to anybody with a peabrain.

At worst he is guilty of proving a strawman, which he did NOT create. The key is he didn't invent it piss brains. What part of that don't you fuck nuts understand? Meanwhile you guys dismiss his claim to racism experience based on his AGE. This has serious social implications whether you fucks like it or not, indicative of a societial attitude to treat racism in high school and primary school with kid gloves.
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Post by brianeyci »

Oni wrote:'m still waiting for any evidence to either support these, or a concession, because if you refuse to either accept, refute, or even acknowledge the fact that you're telling what are evidently direct lies about me, you are pretty much a worthless little shitstain.
What standard of evidence retard? The standard he says it happened isn't good enough? He even fucking mentioned an example in his first post teachers unwittingly giving better grades to white students, which is entirely possible and plausible given the subjective way of marking essays. That wasn't fucking good enough for you, so what the fuck is?

If a man says he's experienced racism, sufficient to take his word at it end of story. He said he experienced racism in his FIRST POST and you dismissed and demanded more evidence, akin to asking for evidence I can walk across the fucking street. He doesn't need to share all the details of his personal secrets on the Internet, and racism is systemic enough in American high schools with ghettos and segregation and cliques that I believe him at face value. Bringing up the main point:

you do not believe him because of his AGE. End of story, whether you like it or not. The claim that minorities do not experience racism in high school is laughable. I know statistics exist that the majority of women have experienced sexual harassment and even ABUSE so the idea that a visible minority has not experienced racism is hilarious.
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Post by ArmorPierce »

Oni Koneko Damien wrote:
Your guys statement that most high school students do not experience racism is a total assumption I suspect to be false and doesn't match my experience in high school.


Hooray! Personal anecdote for the win!
Okay this one was just funny and I had to say something. You're using your own anecdotal evidence to make the statement that he cannot possibly understand racism because of his age (or someone else not sure who have) to counter his claim of anecdotal evidence. lol...
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Post by Master of Ossus »

brianeyci wrote:According to you fucking guys, he had to launder his personal traumatic experiences all over the fucking Internet before you believed him.
Bullshit. I want him to support his argument by describing a nuanced position about a difficult issue.
Here's a hint: you initially dismissed Elite's claim to racism solely based on his AGE so it is not a far stretch to say you would have dismissed ANYTHING he said based on his age, if of course you were logical and followed the initial premise that there's an age barrier to "real" racism. It's too bad you guys don't realize that you retards.
Bullshit. I dismiss the idea that anything other than an incredibly exceptional 15 year old can have a nuanced, mature opinion about racism--which is an incredibly difficult issue. About many, many things 15 year olds are clearly capable of forming intelligent, mature positions. Racism is not an issue I lump into that category. If your head wasn't so far up your ass, you'd be able to read what everyone here is saying and respond to their points, but you seem to have this issue on a more-or-less continual basis.
If a black man says he has experienced racism before, end of story, especially on the Internet. I ask you again, are you a visible minority, and do you truly believe that the claim to have experienced racism is EXTRAORDINARY and requires further justification beyond simply saying it happened? You fucking ignorant cunts.
Even experiencing racism does not give you a full, mature opinion on it. It doesn't work like that. It's not just something you can experience and fully understand, which is something a lot of grown-ups get. I don't know how old you are, but from your childish postings I'm assuming you'll get there, someday.
At first, in his FIRST post, he did not claim superiority based on his experience. He only claimed that not all black people were whiners, which a personal ancedote is sufficient to do because guess what, he's fucking black. One counter-example is sufficient to disprove the universal case. By the way, my personal ancedote has as much validity as your ASSUMPTION that the majority of visible minority high school students don't experience racism, which by the way is fucking wrong to anybody with a peabrain.
Once again, your opinion in this thread is centered on the idea that a few experiences with racism can be sufficient to understand it completely. That's bullshit, as anyone who's actually thought about it can tell you.
At worst he is guilty of proving a strawman, which he did NOT create. The key is he didn't invent it piss brains. What part of that don't you fuck nuts understand? Meanwhile you guys dismiss his claim to racism experience based on his AGE. This has serious social implications whether you fucks like it or not, indicative of a societial attitude to treat racism in high school and primary school with kid gloves.
Once again you show an incredibly unsubtle opinion about the issue. It's bullshit to claim that if it was just taught better in school then everyone would understand it. It's not something you can pick up in a classroom, and it's not really something you can even figure out if you have one or two run-ins with it. It's an incredibly hard issue that's very, very difficult to pin down in spite of its pervasiveness in society.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

brianeyci wrote:you do not believe him because of his AGE. End of story, whether you like it or not. The claim that minorities do not experience racism in high school is laughable. I know statistics exist that the majority of women have experienced sexual harassment and even ABUSE so the idea that a visible minority has not experienced racism is hilarious.
I'm not dismissing the idea that he could have some experiences with racism because of his age, you retard, I'm dismissing the idea that a few experiences with racism are sufficient to create a mature opinion about the issue. And, frankly, if you ask a grown-up I'm sure they'd tell you the exact same thing. It's not an issue that can be realistically thought through if you get yelled at by a Neo-Nazi or get bussed to a different school.
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Post by Darth Wong »

This is the post which seems to have inspired this entire tangent about our favourite 15 year old:
Elite Pwnage wrote:I'll agree with RIPP on this one. Wong that does sound a bit harsh. Admititingly the whole black achievements, black experience thing does bug me a bit. Why does something that someone accomplished have to be defined my race. Anyway back to my point blacks are not not whiners. Sure every once in a while I do here this at my school "why did all the white kids get 100s". But anyway I'm black and I have experienced racism in the past, like RIPP you learn to accept it and move on. I don't go around seeing blacks bitch about racism they either accept it and move on or do something about.
Several points:

1) "Wong that does sound a bit harsh": My post was intended to sound harsh. What the fuck do you think I was trying to get at? Do you think I was trying to make my post smell like lavender and mint? And don't fucking address me by my last name when arguing with me, you little shit. You're not a goddamned drill sergeant, and I'm not a recruit.

2) "blacks are not whiners": Yes they are. The fact that not 100% of them are proves nothing. By your idiot logic, I can't say that Republicans are anti-gay because a considerable number of Republicans are gay. Whenever we talk about a group's public attitude, we are talking about how that group publicizes its attitude. A million silent non-whiner blacks don't have any relevance here. It's the million whiners who matter.

3) "I have experienced racism in the past". High-school racism is not even a tenth as carefully cloaked, deceptive, and potentially disruptive to your life as the shit that adults can and will do to you.
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Post by brianeyci »

Master of Ossus wrote:I'm not dismissing the idea that he could have some experiences with racism because of his age, you retard, I'm dismissing the idea that a few experiences with racism are sufficient to create a mature opinion about the issue.
Did I quote you? Did I even BOTHER to mention your name? Did I mention that you get a full, mature opinion on racism with a few experiences with it? I lumped you in the wrong category same as SW and Oni so I apologize for that, but frankly you coming in after the fact is a little fucking annoying. And so is your fucking name: calling you "Master" is about as annoying as calling him "Elite."

Maybe you should have attacked EP like Mike is now, mentioning other things beside his age, and you wouldn't sound like trying to be EP's daddy. By the way, what are these things that you trust fifteen year olds to have opinions of? I sure don't by default, so unless you want to bring that up every time he opens his mouth it was a fucking red herring, whether you like it or not.
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Post by Justforfun000 »

I'm going to just add one thing to this argument that is actually quite relevant in terms of a teenagers ability to fully understand, experience and process information.

Very recent research has shown that MRI scans of the brain of an adolescent reveals white matter, the nerve tissue through which brain cells communicate, develops continuously from birth onwards, with a slight increase during puberty. This white matter is literally the medium that delivers the message. On top of this, frontal lobe - or more precisely, the prefrontal cortex - is the home of the 'executive' functions: planning, organization, judgement, impulse control and reasoning. One way of putting it is it's the part that should be telling the 16 year old not to drive off the ten-metre cliff into unknown waters.

So with those major parts of the brain not fully developed, biologically alone there is reason to believe that they cannot fully comprehend the magnitude of an extremely complex issue such as racism.

Also, two MRI studies have shown that teenagers do not process emotions the way adults do. Apparently the adolescents brain uses an entirely different part of it.

Couple all of this with the decidely short time they have lived on this earth and the limited circles they would have traveled in, and it's a fair statement to say that they have no CLUE how much more they will have to live before they start even seeing the finer nuances that make up the entire face of racism which has so many shades of grey you could probably count higher then the number of clouds in the sky.
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Post by Big Phil »

brianeyci wrote:According to you fucking guys, he had to launder his personal traumatic experiences all over the fucking Internet before you believed him. Here's a hint: you initially dismissed Elite's claim to racism solely based on his AGE so it is not a far stretch to say you would have dismissed ANYTHING he said based on his age, if of course you were logical and followed the initial premise that there's an age barrier to "real" racism. It's too bad you guys don't realize that you retards.

If a black man says he has experienced racism before, end of story, especially on the Internet. I ask you again, are you a visible minority, and do you truly believe that the claim to have experienced racism is EXTRAORDINARY and requires further justification beyond simply saying it happened? You fucking ignorant cunts.

At first, in his FIRST post, he did not claim superiority based on his experience. He only claimed that not all black people were whiners, which a personal ancedote is sufficient to do because guess what, he's fucking black. One counter-example is sufficient to disprove the universal case. By the way, my personal ancedote has as much validity as your ASSUMPTION that the majority of visible minority high school students don't experience racism, which by the way is fucking wrong to anybody with a peabrain.

At worst he is guilty of proving a strawman, which he did NOT create. The key is he didn't invent it piss brains. What part of that don't you fuck nuts understand? Meanwhile you guys dismiss his claim to racism experience based on his AGE. This has serious social implications whether you fucks like it or not, indicative of a societial attitude to treat racism in high school and primary school with kid gloves.
You're just being a stubborn jackass because you don't want to admit that you mis-read my post, aren't you? You keep accusing me/us of dismissing his experiences with racism, but that is not what happened. I criticized his assessment of how ALL black people deal with racism; there is a difference, and if you would just admit you fucked up, you might see that.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

brianeyci wrote:Did I quote you? Did I even BOTHER to mention your name? Did I mention that you get a full, mature opinion on racism with a few experiences with it? I lumped you in the wrong category same as SW and Oni so I apologize for that, but frankly you coming in after the fact is a little fucking annoying. And so is your fucking name: calling you "Master" is about as annoying as calling him "Elite."
As if abbreviations like "EP" or "Ossus" are insufficient for addressing people. :roll:

I see your pathetic dodges are as pitiful as your arguments. Moreover, a large part of this tangent has been exacerbated by your insistence that age doesn't matter with regards to the issue of racism. Frankly, if you're trying to make the smaller point that it's possible for 15 year olds to experience racism, then congratulations! You've proven the patently obvious.

Moreover, since you obviously can't keep track of the thread, here's the summary:

back in this post, I came in and addressed the age issue with EP. In case you can't remember, that was BEFORE you weighed in on it. I posted again about it, here. Again, this was before you weighed in on it. So in terms of "coming in after the fact," this is the pot calling the kettle black (if I'm allowed to use that phrase in this thread without morons like you jumping on me).
Maybe you should have attacked EP like Mike is now, mentioning other things beside his age, and you wouldn't sound like trying to be EP's daddy. By the way, what are these things that you trust fifteen year olds to have opinions of? I sure don't by default, so unless you want to bring that up every time he opens his mouth it was a fucking red herring, whether you like it or not.
First of all, I was under the impression that I had been attacking EP since the start (or, at least, before you decided to weigh in and then accused me of "coming in after the fact," as if I'm not allowed to do that in the first place), but perhaps that's because you've been mindlessly protecting him and weighing in on a topic you had nothing to do with and only joined "in fairness." Moreover, if you don't trust 15 year olds to have opinions by default, why do you slam people who ignored his claims of experience? Finally, I would trust 15 year olds to have developed opinions on all simple issues and even a few complex ones. They can easily form judgments regarding their own experiences (this sucks, this rules, etc.), and will probably be able to connect those to broader issues. Reasonably mature, intelligent 15 year olds can generally identify quality in things like entertainment, and can form political opinions on many issues if they have been educated or taken it upon themselves to be.
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Post by RIPP_n_WIPE »

Justforfun000

I'm going to pretty much follow what you said there sir. I'm not even going to get in on the age bit.
Discombobulated wrote:But I'm still left with the feeling that schools should at least try to teach students about racism and white privilege, if only so that we don't get more Linda Gottfredsons in the future.
I agree. The problem is that schools teach racism like it's something that happened in the past and isn't still persistent now.

Diomedes

Totally agree with you. What it is is that due to many many many individual acts of "meanness" and a way of thinking that has over time created a system which is oppressive and for privilege.. I say this only because minorities aren't just disadvantaged by not having opportunities available to them, but there are also things which are designed to provide white persons with easier access to things that would benefit them. It's a combination of privilege, oppression, and lack of resources that affects the white/minority relationship and the white/white relationship (though to a lesser extent).

I think what happens with young folks today who look study racism is they see that the system that exists is the result of individual actions. However they somehow see those who benefit from the system as somehow having helped create it. It'd be like blaming the son of a king who murdered and pillaged to create his kingdom for what he inherited from the king. It's not his fault his father was crazy it's just how he was born.

However if the prince reinforces his fathers actions by doing the same or not trying to right the wrongs with full knowledge of what his father did than he's no better than the person who created the system in the first place. I think what happens is that those who study racism, see this correlation and don't think that white people now do enough or that they are in fact reinforcing the system. That's why they call white people racist.

I personally believe that as a group, white people system are largely ignorant of how the system really works. They see "This is what you do as a racist." as action only and don't get taught about the psychological aspect. Then they see all these government programs that provide money and access and all these things which are discriminatory (but for a purpose) and they get mad because they really don't understand why they should pay (via taxes) for these things. There are those who do understand and realize that they have to fix things. There are those who understand and don't want to fix anything or are indifferent. Then there are those who understand and want to actively continue in reinforcing the system. Race relations are horribly complex unfortunately and I doubt the problem will ever really be fixed in our life times.

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Post by RIPP_n_WIPE »

Darth Wong wrote: 2) "blacks are not whiners": Yes they are. The fact that not 100% of them are proves nothing. By your idiot logic, I can't say that Republicans are anti-gay because a considerable number of Republicans are gay. Whenever we talk about a group's public attitude, we are talking about how that group publicizes its attitude. A million silent non-whiner blacks don't have any relevance here. It's the million whiners who matter.

3) "I have experienced racism in the past". High-school racism is not even a tenth as carefully cloaked, deceptive, and potentially disruptive to your life as the shit that adults can and will do to you.
2) I'm glad that I understand what you mean now. I too would a agree that black people who accuse the white man receive far too much publicity. In all honesty I don't think most black people whine or accuse the "white man" for their woes. I've only met a few individuals who really think this way. Those who I know from my circle, those outside it who I know, and just folks you talk to on the street seem to think the way I do. I'm curious though who specifically you are referring to though since you and I might have differing ideas on what is whining and what isn't.

3) You don't have to just experience racism from peers (which is what I assume you are referring to) at that age. When I was younger than EP I had to deal with racism from the administrators at my school at my apartment complex, and through out where I lived and I was aware of it.

In middle school, 9th grade specifically, I was being an ass. I was skipping school, coming in late, and doing poorly grade wise. The only reason I probably passed was due to my mother hounding me and then when it got real bad, sending me to CA with my dad . I got a psychological profile for oppositional defiant disorder, and because I was missing school so much my mother was being accused of educational neglect. Now I wasn't the only person who skipped school, wasn't the only one who came in late, wasn't the only one who did poorly. But I got the most heat for the least amount of what I was doing. I knew kids who drank regularly, had the cops getting called on them for theft, marijuana possession, vandalism, and etc. Some had been arrested and of the 5 boys who had been arrested only 2 were on PINS. However I did none of these things. The only (not trying to discount my behavior) I did was come in late, skip school, and I did poorly. My school administrators wanted to put me on PINS and possibly remove take me from my mom and put me in a group home. I had a teacher who I love till this day (damned if I remember her name though) who sat me and my mother down and said to us "This is crazy. What they are doing I have never seen done before. I deal with kids worse than this knuckled head and they don't get bothered half as much." The only difference between me and the other kids in question was our race

The thing that made me open my eyes to racism happened a year before. In our apartment complex we had annual inspections to see if we were keeping the apartment clean and tidy. We almost got kicked out because we failed an inspection due to our home being "unsanitary". Now my mom hoards shit like a magpie. I can't stand it, in fact I will throw out stuff because I might not use it within the next week if it takes up space in my room. Right now I have a room 15x10. 150ft^2. 60% of it is taken up by my moms stuff. Now our home back then was less crowded than that. I had a 20x10 room there and I had it all to myself. All our stuff was in the basement and it was messy, but not unsanitary. Lots of boxes and maybe some dust. What they referred to was the overflow of our toilet that occurred due to an incorrectly installed cap (the one that controls the flow of water into the bowl) and a clog down the sewer line (we didn't have anything to do with it it was the neighbor who tried to flush a paper down the toilet). The rest of the house was immaculate. What the inspector referred to was the dirty clothes we had on our floor in the basement (we were doing laundry) and some weird precipitate that had formed on the carpet where the toilet water had overflowed. One of my friends who I had in the complex, I had a day before his the inspection visited. They had a section of the carpet, 2x2 literally encrusted with rabbit shit. They had broken the downstairs banister, a toilet, the dishwasher, and the screen to the back porch. Upstairs there were cigarette ashes in the carpet and dog shit on the floor, ingrained into the carpet. Magically they passed the inspection. They were white, we were back. Our situations were identical almost. She was a single mom, my mom's a single mom. Both of them were the lower income apartments in the complex. The only difference was our race and the cleanliness of our houses (mine was cleaner).[/url]

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Post by Darth Wong »

RIPP_n_WIPE wrote:2) I'm glad that I understand what you mean now. I too would a agree that black people who accuse the white man receive far too much publicity. In all honesty I don't think most black people whine or accuse the "white man" for their woes. I've only met a few individuals who really think this way. Those who I know from my circle, those outside it who I know, and just folks you talk to on the street seem to think the way I do. I'm curious though who specifically you are referring to though since you and I might have differing ideas on what is whining and what isn't.
Let's put it this way: ever since Bill Cosby started speaking out against this shit, he's been virtually ignored. Meanwhile, Kanye West is running around saying that the New Orleans disaster was all about race, when it's probably much more about poverty. That's one example of many, but as I said earlier, look at all the "black history", "black achievements", "famous blacks in history", 'black culture", "black experience" bullshit. It's really tiresome.
3) You don't have to just experience racism from peers (which is what I assume you are referring to) at that age. When I was younger than EP I had to deal with racism from the administrators at my school at my apartment complex, and through out where I lived and I was aware of it.
That's still far more overt than what I'm talking about. For example, Asians are statistically over-represented in skilled jobs, yet they are relatively under-represented in management jobs. Coincidence? Culture? Or racism? How do you even know? It's not as obvious as your apartment complex example; if someone says that a worker is good at his job "but he is not management material", what does that mean? How do you even know if it's race or not? Every time you run into a situation like this, you could argue that you should give the guy the benefit of the doubt. But when you add it all up and there ends up being a hugely skewed statistic, what other conclusion is there? And yet, you can't be sure that any given incident was due to racism, or if it was, then you still can't be sure it was due to conscious racism.

Re: your apartment complex experience: it sounds like you live in a real shit-hole.
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