[Discussion] Pearl Harbor remembrance

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2007-12-07 07:54pm

It has been brought to this Senator's attention that Elfdart's decision to disrupt a thread dedicated to remembrance of the sailors, marines, and soldiers who died in the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, in this thread is both discourteous and unnecessary. While it is readily conceded that one is free to express one's opinion, it seems inarguable that to disrupt a memorial for the sake of a completely unrelated matter is the height of poor taste.

This Senator has been asked to bring this matter to the Senate's attention. If it is allowed to pass with no further comment, then so be it. Still, it takes surprisingly little effort to not disrupt a memorial to which one has no desire to contribute.

I have tagged this thread as "Discussion" just to clear things up a bit. ~Dalton

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2007-12-07 08:07pm

At this point, merely HOSing the post(s) involved should be enough.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2007-12-07 08:12pm

Elfdart is an attention whore, and personally I think that his continuous attention-whoring throughout the board is worthy of some attention; namely, I question the wisdom of letting him have a custom title when that certainly only encourages his behaviour.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-12-07 08:30pm

Can someone examine the past history of similar incidents involving other memorial threads, in order to see what (if anything) was done in those cases?

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2007-12-07 08:53pm

Darth Wong wrote:Can someone examine the past history of similar incidents involving other memorial threads, in order to see what (if anything) was done in those cases?

It looks like the Reagan memorial thread had Kojikun's stuff split off into the HOS.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2007-12-07 09:00pm

phongn wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Can someone examine the past history of similar incidents involving other memorial threads, in order to see what (if anything) was done in those cases?
It looks like the Reagan memorial thread had Kojikun's stuff split off into the HOS.

Even though that had nothing to do with why Kojikun was ultimately banned, it should be a good reminder to everyone of where people who pull this shit tend to end up heading in their behaviour.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2007-12-07 09:14pm

BlkbrryTheGreat, Tribun, and Dennis Toy have had their contributions split into the HoS for the purpose of dogpiling in the past. Weemadando and Thirdfain's dustup was voluntarily moved there by Weemadando when they had a dustup in a Pearl Harbor thread.

Now, this data is based on a fairly simple search, and I have not yet gone through ALL the memorial threads to see where dustups have happened and what specifically was done, but it would make sense that this be treated like any thread hijacking. After all, this thread was not about the current state of affairs in the United States, but rather remembering those that died on a historic date.

I'd be for ignoring him, to be honest. If he's scrapping for a fight, he should join in on an appropriate thread or make his own so people can respond without feeling like they are aiding in a hijacking of a thread meant to remember someone or something.

That said, memorial threads are touchy subjects. Some people like to remember things that can be controversial, and as such can invite discussion or debate on the subject. I'm sure that if I started a memorial thread for the death of Hitler, for example, people would jump on me in a heartbeat unless I had a damn good reason.

But let's say, for a moment, I created a thread memorializing the deaths of all the innocent people that have died in the Iraq War? Should I become a target for anyone wanting to vent frustrations at the United States or Muslims? I think the following are the key issues here:

1. How are thread hijackings handled. This is tricky, because simple threads can evolve into completely different threads with ease, but a blatant hijacking can be subtle or blatant.
2. Are memorial threads somehow more or less protected against hijacking? People post articles, personal anecdotes, etc. in memorial threads, but are they really up for discussion or debate?
3. More to the point, do we want to allow members to take pages from Fred Phelps' book?

I know I've rambled a bit here, but such is my way when I so deem it. Next up, I'll read from the dictionary.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2007-12-07 09:15pm

I'd be in favour of making a rule against that sort of behaviour in any memorial thread, but in that case Elfdart shouldn't be punished retroactively.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2007-12-07 09:27pm

So did anyone actually bring this up to Hipper or Edi in concerns of a threadjack...or do we just dump stuff for the Senate to warble about now?

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2007-12-07 09:34pm

I doubt a new rule is really needed. DR1 and DR2 would seem to cover the behavior easily enough.

1. Do not "hijack" threads by trying to change the subject in mid-stream. We are aware that a discussion may meander into different tangents and even different subjects without any conscious effort to make it do so. However, there are times when, in the judgement of our staff, someone has deliberately ignored or tried to change the subject of a thread.

2. The "vendetta" rule: pursuant to the hijacking rule, do not "follow someone around" because you dislike him, hijacking threads in which he participates in order to carry on your feud with him. This particular form of hijacking is considered the least acceptable of all hijacking offenses.

Someone trolling in a memorial thread with the intention of turning into a debate on a completely different subject would seem to be in violation of DR1, and if they do it to target a specific individual, then it's a DR2 violation as well.

The key sticking point here is that a memorial thread isn't really a discussion per se, but rather a bunch of people giving moments of silence or what not. Still, the spirit of the rule would seem to hold true. As to punishment, usually the most that's been done is splitting it to the HoS and letting the offender fend off the ravening hordes of people they've pissed off in the process. As you've noted, Marina, many of those who would hijack a memorial thread were eventually banned, as the poor judgement involved in hijacking a memorial thread often leads to other, more severe poor decisions later in their stay here on SDN.

Ghost Rider
Hey, I just discuss what people throw at me.

That said, we do often bring up subjects here that users ask to be discussed. It helps the plebs feel better about themselves, we get to feel important, and there's much grandstanding to be had. Plus we usually get bribes.

Do you have a bribe for me?

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2007-12-07 09:44pm

Well, if there really was a consensus that it was a form of DR violation, I'd tend to concur with it.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2007-12-08 12:28am

Two thoughts,

1) The review by the senate is solely in the discusssion phase so lets do our thing and if the OT mods want to do something then that's their perogative. In the meantimewefigure out what the consensus here is.

2) as to that point I'd gnerally say for memorial threadswhere the principal focus of the majoiryt of posts is either personal anecdotes or specific incidents of remembrance that discussion or debate that is more of a hijack should be either split to a newthread or split and HOS'd at the mods discretion. On that point it should be general policy rahter than a specific rule.

Post by **Edi** » 2007-12-08 02:04am

As GR said, Frank or I should have been informed. Elfdart's post shall be split from the thread and cast into the HoS and that will be the end of the matter, especially since he does not actually make any direct insults against the men and women who served the US at that time.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2007-12-08 04:01am

Ghost Rider wrote:So did anyone actually bring this up to Hipper or Edi in concerns of a threadjack...or do we just dump stuff for the Senate to warble about now?

Just to chime in, I think someone else might have covered this, but...

I really look at it as another "now you know" sort of situation. The Senate is still new, and we're still delinating the whole "what is Senate worthy and what isn't." Really, the fact that someon did bring this to the Senate's attention tells us that there was some doubt as to where authority lies. Which has, naturally, been resolved, so noone can be argued to be ignorant of this in the future. This thread has cleared that up if nothign else.

IOW, voicing complaints or suggestions/opinions to the Senate, however stupid they may seem initially, is one of the points of the Senate (which brings it to YOUR guys' attention as well.) Its a sort of redundancy that way. Now, if someone else in the future decides to do this even though they ought to know better, tehn you can feel free to tear off their head and piss down their necks

As for Elfdat.. I dont really have much of an opinion either way, save I don't recall anything that I've ever considered respect-worthy, and that alot of the time he tends to fall into the same "white noise" category I put someone like Stark in (IE you kow what he's going to say, he's probably said it before in some pointless variation, so gloss over it.)

I dont think (this time) its aprtticualrily punishment worthy, becuase I dont think we've ppunished anyone for this before (at least on a first itme.) Especially sincee, as Edi notes, he hasnt done anything overtly hostile aside from "Shit stirring" and he's harldy the first shit stirrer (If we brought every single one of those up before the Senate or Staff, we'd be here all millenium.)

As of now, if he's done something I think we can consider him "on notice.' If it happens again, then we can consider action. I'd hole Elfdart is at least intelligent enough to change/modify his behaviour once its been brought to his attention that he's doing something.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2007-12-08 10:54am

I know to both Connor and Hotfoot that it looks that it is a "Now we're informing the moderators", but what happened in the Mod forum wasn't that, which is why I brought it up here. A few moderators did know, but just didn't poke Edi or Hipper about it. Why? I have no fucking clue.

If this was an event that went under the radar as a few others have(one regarding Lonestar that Edi is none too happy about), I would understand. But as it stands, it looks like someone in the Mess got their hackles raised and yabbered a bit, then complained in the Mod Forum and had someone place it in the Senate to raise dust.

That's my bit. But as it is resolved, let it end there.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2007-12-08 02:50pm

That thread had a single response the whole (admittedly brief) time I was online yesterday; if the threadjack had already occurred, I certainly would have split it.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-12-09 12:20am

Well, well, well ...

I just got forwarded a reminder about something that happened a little while ago, where I said this:

I hope the right-wingers in this thread with their yuk-yuk Saint Pancake jokes will remember to keep this thread bookmarked for the next time somebody tries to have a moment of silence for something dear to the right-wing and someone decides to shit all over the thread. Because I can tell you right now that ha ha ha, the oh-so-funny right-wingers have just pissed away their right to complain about such behaviour the next time it happens, and if they choose to conveniently forget their behaviour in this thread, I won't.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 06#2003206

It's been quite a while and I guess I did forget, but guess what? It happened exactly as I expected, didn't it? I guess my memory wasn't as good as I hoped it would be, but guess what: all of the people who tried to have Elfdart strung up in the Senate can go fuck themselves.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2007-12-09 12:42am

I don't think anyone is really suggesting that Elfdart be strung up, at least not in the Senate. Maybe some of the people that contacted the Senate, but the plebians hardly matter in this case.

I think that the point I've been trying to make is the point that you were trying to make in that thread, at least that's my interpretation from a simple glance through. The big difference is that instead of taking a stance of reprisal, I'd rather just see side-discussions that result from memorial threads take place elsewhere in a less charged environment. We can clearly see the kind of shitstorm that can result from such a derailing.

That said, Elfdart's hijacking of the Pearl Harbor thread is nothing compared to what was done in the thread you linked. I'm surprised the thread wasn't split or flushed (or both) as a result of the flamewar that resulted.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-12-09 01:00am

Hotfoot wrote:I don't think anyone is really suggesting that Elfdart be strung up, at least not in the Senate. Maybe some of the people that contacted the Senate, but the plebians hardly matter in this case.

I think that the point I've been trying to make is the point that you were trying to make in that thread, at least that's my interpretation from a simple glance through. The big difference is that instead of taking a stance of reprisal, I'd rather just see side-discussions that result from memorial threads take place elsewhere in a less charged environment. We can clearly see the kind of shitstorm that can result from such a derailing.

That said, Elfdart's hijacking of the Pearl Harbor thread is nothing compared to what was done in the thread you linked. I'm surprised the thread wasn't split or flushed (or both) as a result of the flamewar that resulted.

I think the different reactions speak volumes about how unfair the current political climate is toward people, actions, or statements which are perceived as left-wing, even on what is often described by right-wingers as a left-wing board. I had a dim recollection that there was something like this in the board's past, which is why I asked people to look into it.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2007-12-09 01:12am

Well I'm sorry that I didn't catch it, but I honestly focused more on threads that end up in or got split to the hall of shame specifically. I also tend to avoid N&P most of the time because it frankly is a hotbed for volatile debates that I have little interest in getting embroiled in on subjects I'm usually not qualified to comment on.

I'd also like to point out that while the thread you linked to turned into an all-out flamewar with numerous sub-debates blazing all over the place.

So far, the worst that's happened as a result of Elfdart's post is that it was split and there's been some discussion with regards, not to the content, but rather the way it was presented. Fairly tame in comparison, to be honest.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2007-12-09 02:08am

Darth Wong wrote: I think the different reactions speak volumes about how unfair the current political climate is toward people, actions, or statements which are perceived as left-wing, even on what is often described by right-wingers as a left-wing board. I had a dim recollection that there was something like this in the board's past, which is why I asked people to look into it.

Did you happen to notice the fact that the Pearl Harbor thread starts with a post with no remark made on the event at all. Meanwhile Elfdarts thread was quite clearly started with the intention of provoking a debate; why else would it link to a new article involving a more recent event? Those two threads where not meant to be the same thing.

That said I think Elfdarts comment was something worth remembering, in the sixty plus years since the Second World War nothing really has changed and we shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking otherwise.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-12-09 11:27am

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:I think the different reactions speak volumes about how unfair the current political climate is toward people, actions, or statements which are perceived as left-wing, even on what is often described by right-wingers as a left-wing board. I had a dim recollection that there was something like this in the board's past, which is why I asked people to look into it.
Did you happen to notice the fact that the Pearl Harbor thread starts with a post with no remark made on the event at all.

Of course there is no such remark, because it is unnecessary: those remarks are all implicit to any American.

Pearl Harbour is an important event in the sense of what happened as a result of it, but these "memorial threads" imply that the loss of life at that event was remarkably noteworthy in some way, and really, by the standards of World War 2, it was a drop in the bucket. There are countless incidents in World War 2 which caused far more loss of life than Pearl Harbour and which never get a "memorial thread". I sometimes pay respects to the anniversary of D-Day because I feel moved by the tremendous valour of that enormous expedition, but Pearl Harbour just doesn't stand out in that way to me.

Meanwhile Elfdarts thread was quite clearly started with the intention of provoking a debate; why else would it link to a new article involving a more recent event? Those two threads where not meant to be the same thing.

It's not about whether those threads exist for the same purpose; it is about the fact that the right-wingers gleefully and unapologetically used outright mockery of the deceased in Elfdart's thread. That is not "debate"; it is a clear violation of the intent of the thread and of common decency. Where were the calls for disciplinary action or HOSing there?

That said I think Elfdarts comment was something worth remembering, in the sixty plus years since the Second World War nothing really has changed and we shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking otherwise.

I wonder if public opinion about Pearl Harbour will change over the next hundred years, just as American outrage over the sinking of the Lusitania quietly dissipated.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2007-12-09 11:33am

Darth Wong wrote:It's been quite a while and I guess I did forget, but guess what? It happened exactly as I expected, didn't it? I guess my memory wasn't as good as I hoped it would be, but guess what: all of the people who tried to have Elfdart strung up in the Senate can go fuck themselves.

I'm wondering if you could list for me anybody who actually tried to have Eldart strung up?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-12-09 11:34am

CmdrWilkens wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:It's been quite a while and I guess I did forget, but guess what? It happened exactly as I expected, didn't it? I guess my memory wasn't as good as I hoped it would be, but guess what: all of the people who tried to have Elfdart strung up in the Senate can go fuck themselves.
I'm wondering if you could list for me anybody who actually tried to have Eldart strung up?

How should I know? The people who wanted this brought up in the Senate have not been named.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2007-12-09 01:10pm

Darth Wong wrote:Well, well, well ...

I just got forwarded a reminder about something that happened a little while ago, where I said this:
I hope the right-wingers in this thread with their yuk-yuk Saint Pancake jokes will remember to keep this thread bookmarked for the next time somebody tries to have a moment of silence for something dear to the right-wing and someone decides to shit all over the thread. Because I can tell you right now that ha ha ha, the oh-so-funny right-wingers have just pissed away their right to complain about such behaviour the next time it happens, and if they choose to conveniently forget their behaviour in this thread, I won't.
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 06#2003206

It's been quite a while and I guess I did forget, but guess what? It happened exactly as I expected, didn't it? I guess my memory wasn't as good as I hoped it would be, but guess what: all of the people who tried to have Elfdart strung up in the Senate can go fuck themselves.

What's with this left winger-right-winger stuff? Left wingers weren't smug about the sneak attack at Pearl Harbor.

And frankly, Rachel Corrie would be considered nothing more than a Darwin nominee anyway. Recall that Evel Kinevel's memorial thread, and the Steve Irwin's memorial thread were replete with snickering and jokes. Corrie was little different in that she stupidly put here life in jeopardy.