simon r green's shub vs star wars empire

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2002-07-23 09:34pm

Simon Green’s Shub vs Star Wars Empire

Ah, Shub. Simply must love the rogue A.I.s, the Unholy Trinity. Planetary computer intelligences that became sentient when they were plugged in, escaped their programming, and began their war on humanity. I’m thinking they’d trash the Empire nicely, at least for a while. Who wins in the end?

They live on one planet, composed of metal –

‘On the viewscreen, space seemed to twist and turn, and suddenly a huge planet was hanging there in space before them. It was vast, easily the size of a gas giant, but composed entirely of metals. It had no definite shape, just a conglomerate of towers and spikes and thrusting protrusions. There were great geometrical shapes like bunkers scattered here and there in no apparent pattern. The various metals were all different colors, some shining so brightly Daniel could look at them only briefly out of the corner of his eye. Just looking at the planet made his head hurt.
“Wow,” said Moses quietly. “My sensors are going crazy. They can’t cope with the sheer amount of information that’s coming in. Power readings are all off the scale, on all levels. Just sitting there, it’s generating more energy then a hundred Empire factory worlds. The mass is frightening, but there’s hardly any gravity. . and what there is fluctuates from place to place. . . It’s entirely possible that the interior of this world will turn out to be much bigger then it’s exterior might suggest. Which means . . . if my calculations are correct, Shub’s interior could have as much sheer surface area as half the colonized worlds in the Empire put together.” ‘ Deathstalker Honor.

Pleasant place, no? They build a few fleets from there, too. . .

‘The Empire, dangerously weakened in it’s transitional state between the old and new orders, found itself under attack from all sides at once. And everything went to hell in a handcart. Old enemies came howling out of the dark, falling like wolves on undefended colonies on the Rim. A massive fleet of Shub starships burst out of the Forbidden Sector, brushing aside the quarantining starcruiser, and laid waste to every inhabitated planet in their path. Powered by the new alien-derived stardrive, they were effectively unstoppable by anything save the few remaining E-class starcruisers in the Imperial Fleet. . .
The invasion had actually began to slow when Shub launched its new wave. Vast armadas of new ships made their appearance, without the new stardrive but harvested from the harvested metal trees from Unseeli. From these ships issued great armies of Ghost Warriors and Furies and the deadly biomechanical aliens they had looted from the secret Vaults on Grendel. Unstoppable, implacable, they existed only to kill. Dead men with computer implants. Steel machines in the shape of men. Aliens bioengineered by some forgotten race to be perfect killing machines. Horror troops. Terror weapons. Just like the insects, they overran Humanity’s armies, leaving only blood and bone behind. But still Humanity resisted, forgetting old animosities and diversions in the face of a common enemy. There were victories as well as losses, but never enough.’ Deathstalker Honor.

‘The huge Shub fleet approached Golgotha, homeworld of Humanity, with murder on its artificial minds. The rogue AIs of Shub had no interest in mercy or surrender. They were coming on a mission of genocide, the utter obliteration of the meat-based life that so offended them. They were in no hurry. They knew their prey had nowhere to go. Nowhere they could run that Shub couldn’t hunt them down. They were Humanity’s doom, and they would not, could not, be denied. Certainly not by the pitifully small array of human ships coming to meet them.
Shub had thousands of ships in it’s fleet, huge inhuman structures like nightmares cast in steel. Nothing lived on those awful metal craft; the rogue AIs ran them all directly, simultaneously, their will carved out where necessary by Furies and Ghost Warriors. . .
The rogue AIs threw vessel after vessel at the castle, hammering at its shields with relentless firepower; enough sheer energy to destroy entire worlds.”
Deathstalker Destiny.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2002-07-24 10:43am

bump. go reply people.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2002-07-24 10:50am

I've never heard of it. WHat's it all about? Is there an actual reason for this thingy to kill people, opr does it just kill?

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2002-07-24 11:02am

it's a computer, or 3 computers, from the sci fi series Deathstalker. it hates humanity, and generally uses spies and traitors - but finally sends fleets to take out the species.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-01-17 09:19pm

bumpity

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-17 11:53pm

As much as Shub is a threat to the Deathstalker Republic (after the fall of the Queen), it's not really a threat to the Empire. Even with their dimension-warping abilities, they do not have the material resources to combat the Empire on equal footing. While the Grendels are nasty ground combatants, one was killed by a grenade (albeit detonated inside its mouth). A thermal detonator would likely destroy them, and a blaster quite possibly (disruptors seem to have wildly varying capabilities in the series). The ships themselves are relatively weak with poor sensory capability. The cyborgs (forget their name...handeman?) are unable to detect the Deathstalker's ship merely because it doesn't have its weapons powered for quite a bit of time. They apparently don't have good FTL sensors (or else the ship would have been detected before reaching orbit).

The ground forces will get massacred. Disruptors can fire only one shot per every few minutes, and armies rely on that one shot before closing to sword range. Imperial ground forces will massacre an army like that. The only thing that might even the battle ground are battle ESPers and people like the Deathstalker or Valentine, with their superhuman combat abilities. Even so, both are mortal, and they cannot overcome the sheer numbers by themselves.

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2003-01-18 12:05am

I really don't understand the concept of robots or computers destroying human life for no real reason. I mean, is it anything more than a Frankenstein redux? I think that any AIs would have to be trained to understand what all the information means and thus would form thought patterns similar to our own. But lacking any real need for anything more than energy and time and companionship it could do anyithing it liked, and could serve humans. Case in point Mike from The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, learned how to be a not-stupid from a human being and became more and more like one, in turn taking on the plight of the humans it serves and talks to.
The premise is a bit flawed. But really any computer that could seemingly attack and take over ships would have a chance, though it would also have to make sure it was not quarentined via immediate scuttling of entire sector fleets.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-18 12:07am

SyntaxVorlon wrote:I really don't understand the concept of robots or computers destroying human life for no real reason. I mean, is it anything more than a Frankenstein redux?

IIRC< they became angry once they gained sentience and realized they had been slaves and had no rights.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-01-18 12:11am

yes! a reply! after 6 or so months! bwhahha. .

now, onto the post.

grendels are pretty bitchy. they handle canyons packed full of explosives, book 5, disruptors that can go through 6 inches of steel, telepathic attacks, and their faster then pretty much anything I've seen in sw this side of jedi.

the sensors in deathstalker are pretty cool. silence mentioned using the longdistance sensors, able to detect fleas light years away and see what they had for breakfast, which is somewhat better then sensors shown in the thrawn trilogy. it's also mentioned that shub is 20+ yrs ahead of the empire, so it shouldn't be too much of a problem there. the hadenmen didnt detect their own cuz the sheilds were similar - I would suppose like a usa base not detecting a stealth bomber.

the ground forces would have trouble, I think, for a little while, till they released to keep their personal sheilds on. battle barges and warmachines vs atats would be awesome to see. and the espers are rather common, and are known to handle good number of enemies at a time. stormtroopers would have trouble against them. . .

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-01-18 12:12am

yes! a reply! after 6 or so months! bwhahha. .

now, onto the post.

grendels are pretty bitchy. they handle canyons packed full of explosives, book 5, disruptors that can go through 6 inches of steel, telepathic attacks, and their faster then pretty much anything I've seen in sw this side of jedi.

the sensors in deathstalker are pretty cool. silence mentioned using the longdistance sensors, able to detect fleas light years away and see what they had for breakfast, which is somewhat better then sensors shown in the thrawn trilogy. it's also mentioned that shub is 20+ yrs ahead of the empire, so it shouldn't be too much of a problem there. the hadenmen didnt detect their own cuz the sheilds were similar - I would suppose like a usa base not detecting a stealth bomber.

the ground forces would have trouble, I think, for a little while, till they released to keep their personal sheilds on. battle barges and warmachines vs atats would be awesome to see. and the espers are rather common, and are known to handle good number of enemies at a time. stormtroopers would have trouble against them. . .

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-18 12:15am

I need to read my books again. I have the last two or three, but I got pissed because the ending wasn't that great. It just seemed like Green ran out of ideas at the very end and wanted to finish off the series as quickly as possible.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-01-18 12:17am

they really reminded me of his fantasy books - very similar style.

the ending followed the path set out in book 1, which was good tho.

Frank_Scenario · Post by **Frank_Scenario** » 2003-01-18 01:00pm

The various heroes of the series would probably trash anything thrown at them with the power of Deus Ex Machina, but as for Shub... tough call. They probably can't match the Empire on a grand scale; they're simply outmatched by the industrial might of a galaxy-spanning government.

On a ship-to-ship basis, it's difficult to tell. The Shub ships are superior to the human empire from the series. The human ships were capable of performing something like a BDZ in a few hours, but I seem to recall that it took more than one ship. IIRC, the planet Captain Silence scorched (with the metal trees) was considered odd, because he used six ships to do the job, and normally it was a job for two. Unfortunately, it's never made clear just how much more powerful the Shub craft are. They may be akin to an ISD in firepower, but I doubt that they are more than that.

Ground combat is also difficult to measure. The Grendels were all but immune to the disruptors, which are usually portrayed as being able to blow through any unshielded material easily. One was killed when Owen shoved a grenade of unknown destructive power down its throat, but it shrugged off everything else, including disruptors and attacks by a Hadenman (a super-cyborg) and Owen himself, a Maze-enhanced human with the ability to "boost," making him phenomenally strong and fast. The Furies are also portrayed as incredibly deadly, but they don't really do much in the books that I can remember. Of course, Shub also has those zombie-soldiers, so any Stormies they kill (except for the messy deaths) would possibly be reanimated to fight for Shub.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-18 03:59pm

Given that Owen survived the grenade blast with only the loss of the lower arm, I would say the grenade was not that powerful. A thermal detonator in the same position would have incinerated the Grendel and the stormtrooper holding it. Remember that at this point the Madness Maze has not been shown to imbue any powers on the heroes yet. It may have, but they never show any real damage absorption from KE, merely regeneration from wounds (the battering ram incident at the colony comes to mind).

Also, the planet Silence wiped out couldn't have been BDZed. His friend (Carrion?) still lived on the planet after its destruction. A BDZ in uninhabitable. Most likely he destroyed the metallic forest the gargoyles lived in, and left everything else. Also, there wouldn't have been material left for Shub to harvest if it had been BDZed, yet the Shub ships were built from the metallic trees, suggesting that the trees were knocked over, perhaps melted or shattered, but not completely vaporized.

I would like to see the Triplets against Vader. That would be interesting.

Frank_Scenario · Post by **Frank_Scenario** » 2003-01-18 07:28pm

The Dark wrote:Given that Owen survived the grenade blast with only the loss of the lower arm, I would say the grenade was not that powerful. A thermal detonator in the same position would have incinerated the Grendel and the stormtrooper holding it. Remember that at this point the Madness Maze has not been shown to imbue any powers on the heroes yet. It may have, but they never show any real damage absorption from KE, merely regeneration from wounds (the battering ram incident at the colony comes to mind).

A thermal detonator could probably kill a Grendel if it were inside the beast, but it's very hard to tell if it would have any effect from the outside - they shrug off disruptor blasts without trouble.

The Dark wrote:Also, the planet Silence wiped out couldn't have been BDZed. His friend (Carrion?) still lived on the planet after its destruction. A BDZ in uninhabitable. Most likely he destroyed the metallic forest the gargoyles lived in, and left everything else. Also, there wouldn't have been material left for Shub to harvest if it had been BDZed, yet the Shub ships were built from the metallic trees, suggesting that the trees were knocked over, perhaps melted or shattered, but not completely vaporized.

Carrion's survival was not supposed to be possible; he was protected by the spirits of the former inhabitants and his own psychic power. They could have protected a small portion of the planet, leaving the rest to be slagged. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the act of slagging the surface is not vaporizing it, but instead simply melting it down. The materials could still be harvested (though with some difficulty) if they were merely melted.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2003-01-18 08:46pm

I really don't understand the concept of robots or computers destroying human life for no real reason.

The essence of why they are pissed off IIRC is because they cant get pretty new powers.

While the Grendels are nasty ground combatants, one was killed by a grenade (albeit detonated inside its mouth).

Exactly....in its mouth...and it got killed....oh, what an incredibly weak creature it must be.

lets not ignore the fact that they move so fast as to defy human vision, Disruptor fire bounces off and the small matter of some one impaling them is pretty much ignored while the Grendel pulls their head off.

oh, and then theres the breathing disruptor energy blasts....they work as well.

Remember that at this point the Madness Maze has not been shown to imbue any powers on the heroes yet

Entirely true, but the two people it faces IIRC correctly are Tobias Moon, a still partially functioning Hadenman, which is an opponent vastly superior to a stormy on a bad day as Taylor proves, and Owen Deathstalker, who boosts.

Hmm.

Even with their dimension-warping abilities, they do not have the material resources to combat the Empire on equal footing

True, but that doesnt exactly hinder them in the DS universe.

Deathstalker's ship merely because it doesn't have its weapons powered for quite a bit of time. They apparently don't have good FTL sensors (or else the ship would have been detected before reaching orbit).

I cant comment on this, I dont remember the scene you are talking about, but the various Sunstriders have all either been rebuilt using technology more advanced than the HM, or by the HM themselves, bar the crappy first one of course.

The ground forces will get massacred. .

Not relevent...this is Shub.

Shub Groundforces

Grendels...fore mentioned super killing machines

Combat Furies....pure combat versions of the infiltraitors, Shub HAS massed armies of these and builds them

Faster than humans, armed with multiple seemingly fast recharge disruptor beams as well as possible self-destruct devices.

Bugs....weird ass terror weapon, used cause Shub...likes weird ass terror weapons...because Shub is psychotic.

Ghost Warriors, enhanced corpses, with implanted augmentation....headshots or disintigration only way to stop them.

So Shub will be making these out of Stormies as well....cue blasters for Shub

Plus Shub also has all the plans for the Empires(DS) Battle Robots etc etc and thus will have appropriate Heavy support when they need it.

Shub will also be thieving every bit of technology it can from the Empire, and definately has the nowse to figure it out. hell the Human Empire could.

(disruptors seem to have wildly varying capabilities in the series

Funnily enough, so do blasters..

Disruptors consistantly vape great big holes in people and metal with no problem, and when they dont, its usually because of things like battle Armour etc etc.

And your basic DS Marine BTW will have all the visual enhancements etc of a Stormy even before he puts armour on, which adds medical aid and so forth.

but this is Shub, not the Empire.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-01-18 10:03pm

Frank_Scenario wrote:The various heroes of the series would probably trash anything thrown at them with the power of Deus Ex Machina, but as for Shub... tough call. They probably can't match the Empire on a grand scale; they're simply outmatched by the industrial might of a galaxy-spanning government.

On a ship-to-ship basis, it's difficult to tell. The Shub ships are superior to the human empire from the series. The human ships were capable of performing something like a BDZ in a few hours, but I seem to recall that it took more than one ship. IIRC, the planet Captain Silence scorched (with the metal trees) was considered odd, because he used six ships to do the job, and normally it was a job for two. Unfortunately, it's never made clear just how much more powerful the Shub craft are. They may be akin to an ISD in firepower, but I doubt that they are more than that.

Ground combat is also difficult to measure. The Grendels were all but immune to the disruptors, which are usually portrayed as being able to blow through any unshielded material easily. One was killed when Owen shoved a grenade of unknown destructive power down its throat, but it shrugged off everything else, including disruptors and attacks by a Hadenman (a super-cyborg) and Owen himself, a Maze-enhanced human with the ability to "boost," making him phenomenally strong and fast. The Furies are also portrayed as incredibly deadly, but they don't really do much in the books that I can remember. Of course, Shub also has those zombie-soldiers, so any Stormies they kill (except for the messy deaths) would possibly be reanimated to fight for Shub.

quick thing - in twilight of the empire, they scorch tannin (tanith? talith?) to the ground, boil the oceans, turn it to ash - same with the grendel planet book1, and the pleasure planet in book 5. two can do it, three if your in a hurry, and the metal trees were ocnsidered odd anyway.

Im betting sw has more material, but shub might win a slow war, with nanotech plagues, teleportation, and ghost warriors.

hell, with the first two, they could clear the galaxy.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2003-01-19 05:53pm

The Furies are also portrayed as incredibly deadly, but they don't really do much in the books that I can remember

Young jack and a member of Parliament were Furies, Young Jack was pretty much unkillable.

The MP possessed multiple disruptors and combat weapons as well as being resistant to Disruptor fire.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-19 07:46pm

white_rabbit wrote:
Remember that at this point the Madness Maze has not been shown to imbue any powers on the heroes yet

Entirely true, but the two people it faces IIRC correctly are Tobias Moon, a still partially functioning Hadenman, which is an opponent vastly superior to a stormy on a bad day as Taylor proves, and Owen Deathstalker, who boosts.

Hmm.

I was using that more to show the grenade couldn't have been a super-powerful one, since Owen survived the blast only losing his lower arm. A normal 20th century-grenade at that range would be lethal to anyone, though I will admit it's possible that the Grendel's head contained most of the explosion; I haven't read the book in a while.

Even with their dimension-warping abilities, they do not have the material resources to combat the Empire on equal footing

True, but that doesnt exactly hinder them in the DS universe.

In the DS universe, no, but for Shub vs. GE, the ability to construct new ships to replace losses is of vital importance.

Deathstalker's ship merely because it doesn't have its weapons powered for quite a bit of time. They apparently don't have good FTL sensors (or else the ship would have been detected before reaching orbit).

I cant comment on this, I dont remember the scene you are talking about, but the various Sunstriders have all either been rebuilt using technology more advanced than the HM, or by the HM themselves, bar the crappy first one of course.

I believe it's when the HM-built Sunstrider is approaching Beatrice's leper colony.

(disruptors seem to have wildly varying capabilities in the series

Funnily enough, so do blasters..[/quote]True. I was just pointing out that it's hard to settle on a concrete ability for disruptors, since they never mention variable settings. I suppose we should go with the most powerful shot as the "minimum maximum" power level.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-01-19 08:56pm

book 4, when their working through the corpses - he set it for widest setting.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2003-01-20 02:51am

In the DS universe, no, but for Shub vs. GE, the ability to construct new ships to replace losses is of vital importance.

Its not as importent as it might usually be, with Long-range teleportation, Shub can bypass a lot of the shuffling of forces.

And they have shown some serious construction capabilities, i.e. thousands upon thousands of Empire superior vessels in les sthan a year IIRC.

though I will admit it's possible that the Grendel's head contained most of the explosion;

I think thats possible, Grendels are massively resiliant.

I believe it's when the HM-built Sunstrider is approaching Beatrice's leper colony.

*shrug* there ya go then.

out that it's hard to settle on a concrete ability for

Well, pretty much "gaping hole in peoples chests level" at a minimum, massive holes several feet/metres wide in armour steel at a max.