abadon ware legality

dragon · Post by **dragon** » 2007-12-09 07:52am

I keep coming across that has software for download and they claim this was abandon ware. Does anyone know how the law works in regard to this?

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2007-12-09 07:55am

The term has zero legal meaning. Unless the software was explicitly made available by the copyright holder, abandonware is just as illegal as regular piracy.

dragon · Post by **dragon** » 2007-12-09 07:58am

Ok just wanted to make sure before I started downloading. How do you know about freeware if its really that.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2007-12-09 08:01am

How do you know about freeware if its really that.

If the person or company who created the software offers it for download themselves and states that it is freeware, or can be downloaded free of charge, it's usually kosher. If it's a dodgy Russian site with porn po-ups offering "freeware" copies of games, you run.

dragon · Post by **dragon** » 2007-12-09 08:02am

Bounty wrote:
How do you know about freeware if its really that.
If the person or company who created the software offers it for download themselves and states that it is freeware, or can be downloaded free of charge, it's usually kosher. If it's a dodgy Russian site with porn po-ups offering "freeware" copies of games, you run.

THanks very much for the info.

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2007-12-09 08:51am

Some abandon-ware is where the original IP holders have disappeared and it is damn near imposible to track down who may or may not own the copyright.

Zixinus · Post by **Zixinus** » 2007-12-09 09:25am

Well, there is the underdogs site. I dare not give a link, but they claim that if there is anything illegal available from their site, they will remove it. They mostly host games that the original developers called freeware. They also have allot of old shareware games.

If a mod would PM, I would give the link to judge whether its legal enough to go on the forum.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2007-12-09 09:30am

I wouldn't try it:

Sticky wrote:No Warez. Just so everyone understands, warez and pirating are illegal, so dont offer pirate copies of games or links to warez sites in threads. We dont need any trouble from such things so keep them away from the board. You may discuss the issue, of course, but keep actual links or advice on pirating or other IP-infringement off the board.

No matter how the site dresses it up, it is still breaking the law.

Temjin · Post by **Temjin** » 2007-12-09 09:42am

Zixinus wrote:Well, there is the underdogs site. I dare not give a link, but they claim that if there is anything illegal available from their site, they will remove it. They mostly host games that the original developers called freeware. They also have allot of old shareware games.

If a mod would PM, I would give the link to judge whether its legal enough to go on the forum.

Underdog's policy is that they will remove a game if the copyright holder tells them to. In the meantime, they are perfectly happy to offer the game up for download whether or not the company has declared it freeware or not.

So yeah, plenty of illegal downloads there.

Zixinus · Post by **Zixinus** » 2007-12-09 09:42am

Technically, its not warez. These are old games from companies that have gone bankrupt a long time ago, and the copyright holders declared public domain as they can't get a cent for it.

Temjin · Post by **Temjin** » 2007-12-09 09:47am

Zixinus wrote:Technically, its not warez. These are old games from companies that have gone bankrupt a long time ago, and the copyright holders declared public domain as they can't get a cent for it.

That's called freeware. That's different from abandonware (where the copyright holders have not declared public domain), which is what this discussion is actually about.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2007-12-09 09:57am

Zixinus wrote:Technically, its not warez. These are old games from companies that have gone bankrupt a long time ago, and the copyright holders declared public domain as they can't get a cent for it.

The site has a policy not to distribute games that can still be easily bought, either new or used, but that has no bearing whatsoever on the legal status of the games that aren't generally available anymore. There are games on there that have been released into the public domain by their owners, bu the vast majority are still there illegally.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2007-12-09 03:08pm

Zixinus wrote:Technically, its not warez. These are old games from companies that have gone bankrupt a long time ago, and the copyright holders declared public domain as they can't get a cent for it.

Wrong. There are many games on The Underdogs that are made by companies which are still in business.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-12-09 04:25pm

Yeah, it's pretty retarded that people who have a problem with piracy buy into these ridiculous rationalisations. I hear if you're doing something obviously illegal but promise to stop if anyone complains, it's not REALLY illegal. You're just, y'know, providing free distribution for copyright protected work. What could go wrong?

Like Bounty says, if you're downloading software from anything other than a place like Cnet that says 'is freeware' or an author's site that says 'is freeware', you're *almost certainly pirating software*. 'Abandonware' means 'we're pirating software but we don't feel bad about it because of weak justification'.

bilateralrope · Post by **bilateralrope** » 2007-12-09 04:57pm

Abandonware is still piracy. However abandonware sites try to justify it with two things:

1 - The game in question isn't obtainable though legal methods.
2 - The copyright holder doesn't even care about that game enough to ask them to stop, let alone threaten lawsuits.

So can someone tell my why abandonware is morally wrong when it meets those conditions ?

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-12-09 05:01pm

Fuck off with your 'morally wrong' bullshit. OP says 'legality', and it's totally illegal because their bullshit sops to conscience don't stop them breaking the law. Oh, it's an OPT-OUT illegal distribution network? Well that's okay then!

I hear if someone doesn't know you're pirating it and ask you to stop, it's okay! But when companies aggressively defend their copyrights due to THIS VERY ATTITUDE, that's a bad thing.

If you don't have a problem with piracy, bully for you. It's still absolutely illegal however you decide to spin it. At least be honest with yourself: you're a software pirate.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2007-12-10 12:48am

If you tell us the game title, then it's easier to tell you if it's legal to download it or not.

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2007-12-10 07:05am

I'd like to interject that (theoretically) nearly all Open Source/Free Software "freeware" is also generally safe to download (safer, perhaps, than most proprietary freeware). I'm aware of exactly one incident of attempt malicious code injection into an open source project (although I'm sure there were plenty of others) when some random doucher attempted to sneak a remote hole into the Linux kernel. Needless to say, he didn't make it far.

By the way, I think its quite a great tragedy how many wonderful games are effectively suppressed by their owners; releasing old games like those featured on warez sites to the public IMO would not likely harm the revenue streams of publishers anyways, as its not like they're making a ton of money off of those titles anyways...

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2007-12-10 07:19am

You can't bring morals into it, because you don't need games to have a good quality of life. There's enough free games and free stuff that nobody can seriously say if you don't have this computer game or that computer game, your life suffers.

Might as well admit it's illegal if you do it. Morals is a totally separate issue that shouldn't even come into this. If someone does do it, they shouldn't go around decrying the law like a bible thumper, screaming about how immoral the law is. It doesn't do real moral issues justice.

If you're looking to make yourself feel better, you can find one of Mike's posts saying that lifetime copyright holding is total bullshit and that science works through sharing information, so lifetime copyright for art is bullshit too. But don't kid yourself: it is still illegal.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-12-10 08:55am

RThurmont wrote:By the way, I think its quite a great tragedy how many wonderful games are effectively suppressed by their owners; releasing old games like those featured on warez sites to the public IMO would not likely harm the revenue streams of publishers anyways, as its not like they're making a ton of money off of those titles anyways...

It's a shame they're not available all right (although most of the older games I like have open-ish modern frontends so you can still play them). They're within their rights to sit on ownership of all those titles and brands generating zero profit, though, just like 'oh that's never coming out in Australia ever you lose' is quite within their rights.

SilverWingedSeraph · Post by **SilverWingedSeraph** » 2007-12-10 08:57am

brianeyci wrote:You can't bring morals into it, because you don't need games to have a good quality of life. There's enough free games and free stuff that nobody can seriously say if you don't have this computer game or that computer game, your life suffers.

Might as well admit it's illegal if you do it. Morals is a totally separate issue that shouldn't even come into this. If someone does do it, they shouldn't go around decrying the law like a bible thumper, screaming about how immoral the law is. It doesn't do real moral issues justice.

If you're looking to make yourself feel better, you can find one of Mike's posts saying that lifetime copyright holding is total bullshit and that science works through sharing information, so lifetime copyright for art is bullshit too. But don't kid yourself: it is still illegal.

No one's saying it isn't illegal, we all know that. It seems you completely missed the point that someone made about morality. The person was saying that, while it may legally be considered stealing, if the game cannot be obtained commercially at all, and it doesn't detract at all from the revenue of the game maker (which it doesn't, if the game is no longer sold commercially), then it cannot be considered to be immoral to "steal" the game by downloading it. Illegal, yes. Immoral, no. You're not depriving anyone of money, because the game is impossible to buy anyway.

So read the next time, before you make dumbass comments about people saying that "you can't bring morals into it, because you don't need games to have a good quality of life", and "you shouldn't go around decrying the law like a bible thumper, screaming about immoral the law is", because nobody fucking said anything like that. They said that while downloading abandonware may be illegal, there's nothing immoral about it. The same is not true of warez, where it's effectively stealing money from the game maker, and thusly can be considered immoral.

I don't even care either way, and I'm not taking sides on the matter, saying whether I agree or not. I was just appalled by your complete and utter lack of comprehension.

End statement: Abandonware is illegal unless it's Freeware. If it isn't freeware, and you download it, it's piracy, and it's illegal, regardless of whether you personally consider it to be moral or not.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2007-12-10 11:29am

SilverWingedSeraph wrote: No one's saying it isn't illegal, we all know that. It seems you completely missed the point that someone made about morality. The person was saying that, while it may legally be considered stealing, if the game cannot be obtained commercially at all, and it doesn't detract at all from the revenue of the game maker (which it doesn't, if the game is no longer sold commercially), then it cannot be considered to be immoral to "steal" the game by downloading it. Illegal, yes. Immoral, no. You're not depriving anyone of money, because the game is impossible to buy anyway.

Who gives a fuck about the morality of the issue? It's really just a weak rationalization to make people feel better about themselves whenever they pirate something. It's a pure luxury item anyway, so it's not as if there's a lot of wiggle room in the morally gray areas. The current copyright laws are a crock, but when it's a luxury that's not sold anymore, you can either:

1 - Buy it legally through ebay or some other reseller.

2 - Pirate it anyway, acknowledging that what you're doing is illegal and not waste time on stupid moral justifications.

3 - Rationalize your piracy as though it's going to somehow change the realities of the legal situation in an attempt to make yourself feel better.

4 - Boycott the games entirely to gain some type of weak moral high-ground.

SilverWingedSeraph · Post by **SilverWingedSeraph** » 2007-12-10 12:12pm

I don't actually give a crap about the morality of it either way, either. I was just annoyed by brianeyci completely misunderstanding what the people talking about the morality of it were saying. The morality is a non-issue. If you download abandonware, you're still just stealing, and any excuses you make up for yourself only serve to make you feel better about it. I agree with that completely.

It's even funnier when people try to come up with moral justifications for illegaly downloading mp3's.

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2007-12-10 05:43pm

It isnt fucking stealling. Unlawful copyright infringment, but it is legally not stealling.

At least get the terms right.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2007-12-10 07:05pm

SilverWingedSeraph wrote:
brianeyci wrote:You can't bring morals into it, because you don't need games to have a good quality of life. There's enough free games and free stuff that nobody can seriously say if you don't have this computer game or that computer game, your life suffers.

Might as well admit it's illegal if you do it. Morals is a totally separate issue that shouldn't even come into this. If someone does do it, they shouldn't go around decrying the law like a bible thumper, screaming about how immoral the law is. It doesn't do real moral issues justice.

If you're looking to make yourself feel better, you can find one of Mike's posts saying that lifetime copyright holding is total bullshit and that science works through sharing information, so lifetime copyright for art is bullshit too. But don't kid yourself: it is still illegal.
No one's saying it isn't illegal, we all know that. It seems you completely missed the point that someone made about morality. The person was saying that, while it may legally be considered stealing, if the game cannot be obtained commercially at all, and it doesn't detract at all from the revenue of the game maker (which it doesn't, if the game is no longer sold commercially), then it cannot be considered to be immoral to "steal" the game by downloading it. Illegal, yes. Immoral, no. You're not depriving anyone of money, because the game is impossible to buy anyway.

Hey, fucking moron the op is talking about illegal, not immoral. Too fucking bad you don't understand that. Then bring up morality for what?

RED HERRING
As an excuse to break the law.

Stark gets it: you don't. The moral issue is often brought up over and over, but guess what? Who the fuck cares if you can't play a fucking GAME. Bringing up morals is fucking stupid.

So read the next time, before you make dumbass comments about people saying that "you can't bring morals into it, because you don't need games to have a good quality of life", and "you shouldn't go around decrying the law like a bible thumper, screaming about immoral the law is", because nobody fucking said anything like that. They said that while downloading abandonware may be illegal, there's nothing immoral about it. The same is not true of warez, where it's effectively stealing money from the game maker, and thusly can be considered immoral.

Sure they are. They're using how immoral it is to make themselves feel better about breaking the law. What a LOAD OF SHIT. If I want to break the law I will do it with eyes wide open and not insert morals where there isn't a true moral dilemma.

Who the fuck cares if "downloading abandonware may be illegal but there's nothing immoral about it?" I fucking hate pricks like you who bring morals and ethics into situations where there are no morals or ethical dilemmas involved. Ohhhhhhhh it's a RIGHT to play this or that. Well excuse me, this is not a moral issue at all.

By the way you are wrong. In a society of laws, breaking the law merits serious consideration. Without rule of law, knuckleheads can go around doing whatever the fuck they want. Breaking the law can be immoral itself. Break the law for a game? Maybe okay, but don't go in pretending there is nothing immoral about it at all, one or zero, all or nothing you dumbass. Face the consequences.

I don't even care either way, and I'm not taking sides on the matter, saying whether I agree or not. I was just appalled by your complete and utter lack of comprehension.

End statement: Abandonware is illegal unless it's Freeware. If it isn't freeware, and you download it, it's piracy, and it's illegal, regardless of whether you personally consider it to be moral or not.

Yes, let's pretend you aren't taking sides so I can't nail you down, shall we

.

I'm appalled by your inability to recognize a red herring, or recognize that people use the moral issue as an excuse to make themselves feel better. They admit it's illegal, but they sure don't act like it. It's either a red herring or a way of making yourself feel better about breaking the law. Both are fucking lame.