Tech Manual Insanity

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-17 11:56am

I wonder how many opf them died in the Generations crash

Well I guess another chalk up in the using space for useless thing compartment for Trek.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-17 11:56am

Publius wrote:Strictly speaking, the idea that aquatic mammals might be in active service with Starfleet's bureau of ships (or whatever division handles theoretical navigation) is not so much of a stretch. Recall that Captain Spock was able to telepathically communicate with the whales in The Voyage Home, and it was implied that, at least in the Star Trek canon, whales are fully sentient and intelligent.

Still, even if one allows that whales and dolphins may be commissioned officers in Starfleet, the very idea of actually carrying twelve dolphins and two whales about with one in space seems a grossly ineffecient use of space and resources aboard a starship.

One should note, however, that the text does not actually state that the seaborne research specialists are detailed to an actual Galaxy-class vessel in service -- rather, they are simply associated with research and development. Most probably, they reside on Earth.

Publius

I agree with everything here, except that Sternbach's quote clearly places the animals on board the E-D. Otherwise, there would be no way for anyone to be called to their operations center while on the ship.

Currald · Post by **Currald** » 2003-01-17 01:45pm

Jesus, calm down. The GCS was made with aesthetics in mind, not efficiency. It's really too bad the Enterprise kept getting into combat... The dolphins could be some sort of scientific specialists or something. Maybe they have an easier time dealing with... 4D space or something. Maybe the crew just plain likes 'em.

ArmorPierce · Post by **ArmorPierce** » 2003-01-17 06:25pm

OMFG, it's cannon. Could they have used any worse of an idea?

Warspite · Post by **Warspite** » 2003-01-17 06:49pm

If they are specialists, then their presence aboard might not be required 100% of the time. It would be a waste of assets, to have these "specialists" darting around space, on mundane ambassador ferrying missions, on known and frequently traveled routes, or going to 200+ year old Neutral Zone, prone to conflicts.
Maybe the presence is required when the ship goes into unknown space (e.g. uncharted territories), the navigation system receives a software upgrade (

) or needs some sort of calibration.

In Generations, their presence would be mostly needed, in the scene where Picard and Data are in "navigation amphiteathre" (for me, one of the best scenes in the whole movie), Data states the computer will take a few moments to make the necessary calculations, meaning the computation of the gravitational displacement caused by the Armagosa explosion.
Now, if there where fish about (yeah, I know they are mammals!), wouldn't Data refer to them, or wouldn't the computations be even more faster?
Of, course, they could be aboard, and the computations were faster due to these specialists. (Dang, just shot my own argument!)

But if the only mentions are one episode and a TM, why haven't we heard more from this specialists?
Animal Rights concerns?
Puting the cute little dolphins and smart Willy's in the cold, brutal space might affect the younger viewers? (The same viewers that could pull the wings of flies without a second thought?)

In the famous words of one noted cetacean: "fish..."

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-01-17 07:13pm

Shane Johnson's Mr. Scott's Guide To The Enterprise (written post-TMP) posited that the refit-Enterprise had an installation of a special chamber to house Medusan (the noncorporeal beings which normal humans could not look at without suffering insanity as a result; from "Is There In Truth No Beauty") navigators. While that at least has some continuity linkage, it seems that it would be better simply to have a good computer on board and rely on that. Housing dolphins or even Medusans aboard a starship is just plain ludicrous.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2003-01-17 07:15pm

Darth Wong wrote:Keeping dolphins onboard a primarily human-crewed spaceship would be idiotic.

And this doesn't fit with Star Trek, B&B era at least, how?

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-01-17 07:29pm

Hmm.

I suppose 'flights of fancy' are strictly not permitted in fiction.

I mean, jesus. It's not like a writer would ever take into consideration that "well, since the GCS has this on board, it'll be that much weaker". This is nitpicky stuff of an obscene level... the cetaceans never had and never will have an impact on any ST story and to be screaming bloody murder about a little flight of fancy some illustrator had while making a ship is insanity beyond even the realm of "vs. debates".

I just thought it was weird. Some people here are taking TNG more seriously than the production staff ever did... oddly, the same people that insist that ST can't be taken seriously.

Currald · Post by **Currald** » 2003-01-17 10:59pm

That calculation in the astrophysics room or whatever took the longest of any Trek computation.

Maybe the dolphins are an extention of the Trek anti-computer bias, so evident in TOS episodes (how many times did Kirk "talk to death" an evil computer?). The dolphins are a more pleasant alternative to computers in that their pretty, have nice ecological connotations, emotional, blah blah blah. When TNG first started, the GCS was the only ship around. There have been many ship classes since then which obviously did NOT have cetaceans in them, but it may have been intended for the dolphins to be the standard navigator onboard starfleet vessels.

Whoa! What was I talking about? Where am I? I think I have something important to do now. Bye bye!

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-01-17 11:34pm

Seriously, I'm in shock. How the hell is a freaking dolphin (as unfortunaley canon as it is) supposed to be efficient ot a computer in any way? Even remotley accplicable to the Enterprise's role and situation.

As for the "evil computers" lets face it, Trek always has and always will be depenedent on computers, dolphins or not. As for Kirk, I computers have been updated since his time in the TNG era. They got the bugs out I would hope, they only had a century.

God, think of the dolphin causalties in the Dominion War! ANIMAL CRUELTY I SAY!!!

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-18 12:31am

Uraniun235 wrote:Hmm.

I suppose 'flights of fancy' are strictly not permitted in fiction.

"Flights of fancy" are OK. "Flights of stupid" are not.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-01-18 01:21am

Ghost Rider wrote:I wonder how many opf them died in the Generations crash

Who knows? But it definitely demonstrates that a starship is not a dolphin-safe environment.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-01-18 01:30am

DOLPHINS?????

But I love dolphins! Taste like tuna.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2003-01-18 03:37am

Ghost Rider wrote:I wonder how many opf them died in the Generations crash

Well I guess another chalk up in the using space for useless thing compartment for Trek.

*cue cut Generations footage*

INT Jefferies Tube on deck 7.

Geordi: The core breach is accelerating Geordi! We've got to get out of here!"
*Geordi slams a hatch shut and hits his comm badge*
Geordi: "This it bridge, we're all out!

INT Main Bridge.

Data: "One minuite to warp core breach"
Riker: "Initiate seperation sequence; full impulse power once we're clear"
Worf: "Warp core is going critical!"

EXT The Saucer section sperates from the stardrive and starts to angle away.
INT Main bridge.

Data: "Seperation complete."
Troi: "Engaging impulse engines"
Riker: "Hey did anyone remember to get the Dolphins out?'
*Everyone looks at Troi*
Troi: "Opps"
*Stardrive section Explodes*

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-18 11:36am

Warspite wrote:If they are specialists, then their presence aboard might not be required 100% of the time. It would be a waste of assets, to have these "specialists" darting around space, on mundane ambassador ferrying missions, on known and frequently traveled routes, or going to 200+ year old Neutral Zone, prone to conflicts.
Maybe the presence is required when the ship goes into unknown space (e.g. uncharted territories), the navigation system receives a software upgrade ( ) or needs some sort of calibration.

Perhaps not, but their tank would almost need to be a permanent portion of the ship.

Warspite · Post by **Warspite** » 2003-01-18 12:06pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
Warspite wrote:If they are specialists, then their presence aboard might not be required 100% of the time. It would be a waste of assets, to have these "specialists" darting around space, on mundane ambassador ferrying missions, on known and frequently traveled routes, or going to 200+ year old Neutral Zone, prone to conflicts.
Maybe the presence is required when the ship goes into unknown space (e.g. uncharted territories), the navigation system receives a software upgrade ( ) or needs some sort of calibration.
Perhaps not, but their tank would almost need to be a permanent portion of the ship.

Naturally, unless they used a holodeck for the job...

Does anyone knows the necessary size of a tank to hold the dolphins and orcas?

Admiral Griffith · Post by **Admiral Griffith** » 2003-01-18 02:08pm

Darth Wong wrote:Keeping dolphins onboard a primarily human-crewed spaceship would be idiotic. Even if they do approach human intelligence, so what? The resources required to maintain segregated aquatic crewers upon a primarily humanoid-crewed vessel would be a massive waste.

I'll second that! It's got to be the stupidest thing I've heard for a while!

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-01-18 04:44pm

The only thing I remember is from the novel Dark Mirror by Diane Duane, when a dolphin-like specialist was brought on board. His quarters were adjusted to suit him, but most of the time he went around the ship in a customised environment suit. The effort to customise one set of living quarters would be negligible, presuming the the room is already sealed, and going by the Federation's love of force fields.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-18 07:17pm

Warspite wrote:Naturally, unless they used a holodeck for the job...

Does anyone knows the necessary size of a tank to hold the dolphins and orcas?

Apparently, no one really knows. It's pretty typical to have 1.5 million gallon tanks for six dolphins, and the Orcas would need much more water per unit. I would estimate it would take no less than 4 million gallons to keep that many animals in relative health and good standing, and it could conceivably take as many as 6 million gallons. That is, quite obviously, a SUBSTANTIAL volume of the ship.

Jadeite · Post by **Jadeite** » 2003-01-18 07:50pm

Where exactly in the ship are they located?

Warspite · Post by **Warspite** » 2003-01-18 07:55pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
Warspite wrote:Naturally, unless they used a holodeck for the job...

Does anyone knows the necessary size of a tank to hold the dolphins and orcas?
Apparently, no one really knows. It's pretty typical to have 1.5 million gallon tanks for six dolphins, and the Orcas would need much more water per unit. I would estimate it would take no less than 4 million gallons to keep that many animals in relative health and good standing, and it could conceivably take as many as 6 million gallons. That is, quite obviously, a SUBSTANTIAL volume of the ship.

Oh, great, just great, we've got a mass of 23.28 thousand tonnes of salt water aboard ship... And I'm still not counting with support systems...
What a fucking dumb ideia!

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2003-01-18 07:58pm

Master of Ossus wrote:I would estimate it would take no less than 4 million gallons to keep that many animals in relative health and good standing, and it could conceivably take as many as 6 million gallons. That is, quite obviously, a SUBSTANTIAL volume of the ship.

Unless I've flubbed the math, 6 million gallons = 22712m^3 = a cube 28.31m on each side. Granted a 28x28x28m cube isn't trivial but it's not as if half the saucer section would need to be devoted to tankage.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-18 08:25pm

Enlightenment wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:I would estimate it would take no less than 4 million gallons to keep that many animals in relative health and good standing, and it could conceivably take as many as 6 million gallons. That is, quite obviously, a SUBSTANTIAL volume of the ship.
Unless I've flubbed the math, 6 million gallons = 22712m^3 = a cube 28.31m on each side. Granted a 28x28x28m cube isn't trivial but it's not as if half the saucer section would need to be devoted to tankage.

The tank would not be a 28m cube, though. It would have to be relatively flat, about two decks deep (with another deck on top just to service the animals by feeding them and such), so that's about nine meters high, but then you would need to spread the tank over a larger portion of those three affected decks.

BTW, I just found out that the 1.5 million gallon tank is considered barbarically small by some people, who insist on having larger tanks for the same number of animals. The people who make 1.5 million gallon tanks point out, however, that there appears to be little correlation between the volume of a tank and the survival and health of the animals placed in it.