Earth Alliance Militarism (Gundam Seed)

[VF5SS]

oh, yeah what's wrong with it?

Ford Prefect and VF5SS will flame the shit out of me if I list my many complaints against the 'Gundam' series. [/quote]

I'd have less of an issue with you if you actually listened to what we said. Just because Gundam SEED sucks does not reflect upon the franchise as a whole. Nevermind the fact that you always ignore us when we try to tell you why there were young people in the original Gundam. You don't seem to pay attention to anything outside of your little Ghost in the Shell, METAL GEAR AWESOME HIDEO KOJIMA IS GRAET! circlejerk.

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

At least many of us are willing to suspend our disbelief when they told us back in the days of the One-Year War that suitable manpower was so hard to come by that the Federation and Zeon both had to resort to recruiting teenagers. If it worked for the Universal Century, why not for the Cosmic Era (or any of the other timelines, for that matter)?

[Ford Prefect]

Ford Prefect and VF5SS will flame the shit out of me if I list my many complaints against the 'Gundam' series.

Only if your complaints are based upon misconceptions. My problem is not with your opinions, but rather that a lot of the opinions I find you expressing are based upon false information. I don't even really like Gundam as a whole - far from it - but a lot of the stuff you seem to have against seems derived from bullshit.

If it worked for the Universal Century, why not for the Cosmic Era (or any of the other timelines, for that matter)?

It worked for UC because it was a horrors of war thing. It works, so to speak, in AD because the number of underage pilots is ... one, and he's a bwalking, talking example of what a cult of personality can make kids do, and it's not pretty (it also works because we're supposed to question the methods of the organisation he works for). Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't; not merely for Gundam, but for other series as well.

[Warsie]

I'm sure I can find other reasons therein, of course.

Correct, and the Stargazer shows the ZAFT mobile suits' terrorist attacks on Earth. The Earth's population, especially the populations of the Atlantic Federation were not too trusting of the ZAFT, the upgrades and shit to the EA's ships and mobile suite were likely voted by the representatives, etc.

and Darksider, correct. They never specified the regulations, for all we know it might be a few things here and there

I'm not sure wether or not Durandal would wipe out the naturals, but some of the things he does toward the end of Destiny are authoritarian to say the least.

he wouldn't wipe out the naturals, he states he had no problem with the EA< but hated LOGOs. He helped the naturals who left the EA (See western and southwest Eurasia). He wasn't biased like that, remember him trying to calm down the PLANT populace?

Though it's interesting to see the DESTINY plan, it seemed to be like the PLAN tests but using genes. IT seems authoritarian in some ways in a predetermined destiny, but it seems that the genes also determine their likes, etc and that might be factored in there too.

But didn't Lacus, etc say all 'undesirables would be killed', but Durandal disagreed with that?

That probably caused millions of deaths earth-side, and no one ever hears about that.

Ten Million Deaths IIRC, and yes the Earth Alliance used that as propaganda ("no coordinator has the right to restrict our access to space" and "Die, you space invaders". Interestingly, that probably got a lot of people to join the Alliance Military.

Also, IIRC the Earth Alliance military never gave orders for a nuclear strike against a civillian target. IIRC they were fake orders sent by Blue Cosmos that authorized the nuking.

Blue Cosmos members loaded the nukes onboard yes, but the Atlantic Federation authorize the usage (that taskforce was specifically with the AF)

biggest complaint against 'Gundam SEED' and 'Gundam SEED Destiny' is the deployment of MS pilots under the age of 18. Seriously, they couldn't wait until Meyrin was at the age of consent before putting her aboard a fucking warship in a fucking war zone?

Meyrin was 18 in the beginning. The same was for the original Gundam. Besides, this is the medium future so people likely learn and mature faster, children's rights and such. And she is a coordinator.

And what's with the "Wars are started and sustained because arms manufacturers profit from them" bullshit in 'Gundam SEED Destiny'? What, political ideology, racial tensions (with the exception of "Naturals vs Coordinators"), oil and other resources are no longer important to a government's decision to start a war?

Heard of the Military-Industrial Complex? Read the book "War is a Racket" by General Butler? Besides, it's s classic "unite people against other people" thing done in RL, using the aforementioned issues to influence a war, but the leaders genuinely believe it as well.

Though many people did mention that Durandal was using LOGOs as a scapegoat and they likely did not command as much influence as Durandal says, and they likely all had official jobs in government (see Azrael having an official Alliance position)

(I heard that arms manufacturers convinced the Pentagon to sustain American war efforts in Vietnam so they could continue to profit from that conflict, but let's be serious: political ideology, specifically American interests vs a vicious combo of Vietnamese nationalism and communist ideology, were the real reason the war lasted so fucking long.)

that too, there's various reasons.

[Sidewinder]

biggest complaint against 'Gundam SEED' and 'Gundam SEED Destiny' is the deployment of MS pilots under the age of 18. Seriously, they couldn't wait until Meyrin was at the age of consent before putting her aboard a fucking warship in a fucking war zone?

Meyrin was 18 in the beginning.

I think you have Meyrin confused with another character. According to Gundam Official, she's 16, two years below the legal age of consent in California.

Besides, this is the medium future so people likely learn and mature faster, children's rights and such. And she is a coordinator.

I hope you're not making up excuses for ZAFT's (and Sunrise's) use of child soldiers. (Read this to learn why using child soldiers is a bad idea-- it's one of the worst forms of child abuse.)

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

biggest complaint against 'Gundam SEED' and 'Gundam SEED Destiny' is the deployment of MS pilots under the age of 18. Seriously, they couldn't wait until Meyrin was at the age of consent before putting her aboard a fucking warship in a fucking war zone?

Meyrin was 18 in the beginning.

I think you have Meyrin confused with another character. According to Gundam Official, she's 16, two years below the legal age of consent in California.

And in many other jurisdictions, yes, but PLANT is obviously not California or any other jurisdiction where 18 is the age of majority.

It's funny that you bring up that Wiki article on the military use of children. It states:

The Parties to the conflict shall take all feasible measures in order that children who have not attained the age of fifteen years do not take a direct part in hostilities and, in particular, they shall refrain from recruiting them into their armed forces. In recruiting among those persons who have attained the age of fifteen years but who have not attained the age of eighteen years, the Parties to the conflict shall endeavour to give priority to those who are oldest.

Taking into consideration PLANT's relatively small population in relation to the Earth, the low fertility rates of Coordinators, and the losses sustained during the First Bloody Valentine War, it would stand to reason that ZAFT was already scraping the bottom of the manpower barrel as early as late Cosmic Era 70, to say nothing of the situation in Cosmic Era 73. ZAFT had no choice but to admit teenagers, and Meyrin Hawke just happens to be within the lower limit laid out by the Geneva Conventions; maybe all the 17- and 18-year-olds had been conscripted or something.

[Warsie]

I think you have Meyrin confused with another character. According to Gundam Official, she's 16, two years below the legal age of consent in California.

Okay, thank you. Sorry

I hope you're not making up excuses for ZAFT's (and Sunrise's) use of child soldiers. (Read this to learn why using child soldiers is a bad idea-- it's one of the worst forms of child abuse.)

I've read it in the past actually.

[Warsie]

it would stand to reason that ZAFT was already scraping the bottom of the manpower barrel as early as late Cosmic Era 70, to say nothing of the situation in Cosmic Era 73. ZAFT had no choice but to admit teenagers, and Meyrin Hawke just happens to be within the lower limit laid out by the Geneva Conventions; maybe all the 17- and 18-year-olds had been conscripted or something.

I find it kind've weird. In some of the comics it states that ZAFT conscripted (one ZAFT pilot was conscripted in the manga), but based off the Gundam Seed and Seed Destiny shows it's all voluntary-especially given the scenes of the PLANTs showing people who are 20-40 (Gundam Seed; the latter states of the Bloody Valentine War after JOSH-A).

[Black Admiral]

I find it kind've weird. In some of the comics it states that ZAFT conscripted (one ZAFT pilot was conscripted in the manga), but based off the Gundam Seed and Seed Destiny shows it's all voluntary-especially given the scenes of the PLANTs showing people who are 20-40 (Gundam Seed; the latter states of the Bloody Valentine War after JOSH-A).

It's possible ZAFT operates some form of limited national service, although the precise criteria for such a thing I could only guess at. It's obviously not as widespread as national service was in the UK, especially given the high proportion of observed ZAFT personnel who are professional volunteers.

Also, it seems like ZAFT either didn't see much high intensity fighting or didn't take that many casualties early on in the First Bloody Valentine War; if they had, it's distinctly likely they'd have been faced with the same situation as the BEF in WW1, loosing a lot of their best troops early on and having them replaced by enthusiastic but much less capable volunteers.

[Warsie]

Also, it seems like ZAFT either didn't see much high intensity fighting or didn't take that many casualties early on in the First Bloody Valentine War; if they had, it's distinctly likely they'd have been faced with the same situation as the BEF in WW1, loosing a lot of their best troops early on and having them replaced by enthusiastic but much less capable volunteers.

I thought they did, the Lunar Campaign and First Battle of Victoria being examples. The battle of nova and yggrasil were draws.

[Black Admiral]

I thought they did, the Lunar Campaign and First Battle of Victoria being examples. The battle of nova and yggrasil were draws.

The point I was trying to make is this - ZAFT's prewar strength, taking into account the small population base and its all-volunteer nature, cannot have been all that high. It takes time to train a mobile suit pilot properly; you can teach them the basics fairly quickly, but throwing a pilot who only knows the basics up against a fully trained one is an act of wanton criminality.

As such, even with the mass of volunteers post-Junius Seven, for some time it would have been left to the prewar regulars to hold the line alone. If those units had taken heavy casualties, the gaps would have to be filled by partway trained volunteers, who aren't comparable to the regulars they replace. This is particularly relevant as ZAFT held the initiative for most of the First Bloody Valentine War, and was the one committed to offensive operations. Partially trained troops tend to do badly in offensive operations.

Of course, that's not helped by the EAF's superior tactics and command/control structure - oh, let's not forget the fact that EAF officers understand the idea of maintaining tactical control over an engagement and not letting it degenerate into a brawl. Seriously, ZAFT's amateurish approach to tactics and intel gathering alone makes me want something horrible to happen to them.

[Sidewinder]

Of course, that's not helped by the EAF's superior tactics and command/control structure - oh, let's not forget the fact that EAF officers understand the idea of maintaining tactical control over an engagement and not letting it degenerate into a brawl. Seriously, ZAFT's amateurish approach to tactics and intel gathering alone makes me want something horrible to happen to them.

I've read the manga and seen the 2nd and 3rd 'Gundam SEED' movies; I haven't seen the TV series. Can you cite scenes where the Earth Alliance demonstrated superior tactics, command and control, or where ZAFT demonstrated poor tactics?

[Black Admiral]

I've read the manga and seen the 2nd and 3rd 'Gundam SEED' movies; I haven't seen the TV series. Can you cite scenes where the Earth Alliance demonstrated superior tactics, command and control, or where ZAFT demonstrated poor tactics?

In ep. 4 of GSD, the Minerva's mobile suit team (the Impulse, Lunamaria's ZAKU Warrior and a pair of GuAIZ Rs) take on the Chaos, Gaia and Abyss Gundams, piloted by members of the EAF's Phantom Pain team. Throughout that engagement, there's no communication between Shinn and Luna (both GuAIZs dying inside of ten seconds); in fact, for most of it neither knew where the other was. By contrast, Sting Oakley (Phantom Pain team leader) kept in communication with his team-mates, coordinating their efforts; admittedly, only in a limited way, but Shinn's only order was "Scatter! Take them one on one!", which is rather unhelpful.

In general, ZAFT pilots seem to fight as individuals, with only the most rudimentary efforts at coordination between one another; the EAF fight as part of a team - I can dig up more examples if necessary.

[Darksider]

In general, ZAFT pilots seem to fight as individuals, with only the most rudimentary efforts at coordination between one another; the EAF fight as part of a team - I can dig up more examples if necessary.

That's something that's always pissed me off about the C.E.-verse series'

The Earth Alliance has greater numbers, and better tactical cohesion, and yet the get their asses kicked every time because the plot requires it. The EA mobile armor squadrons should have been massacring the uncoordinated ZAFT forces, but more than 60% of the units destroyed on-screen are Alliance, unless one of the uber-powerful main character units is in play.

[Black Admiral]

That was what got a laugh out of me related to the Chaos's fate - the super-mecha getting taken down by three cannon fodder suits.

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

That was what got a laugh out of me related to the Chaos's fate - the super-mecha getting taken down by three cannon fodder suits.

Let's not forget Kira Yamato piloting Strike Rouge and getting his ass beat by a bunch of ZAKU Warriors and GOUF Igniteds. It doesn't exactly have the same impact as Sting Oakley getting shot down by a trio of Murasames, but the mere idea of Kira getting beat up by grunt suits is still fun nonetheless.

I just don't think it's a very good idea to build walls of that nature between you and your fellow soldiers, Athrun. When we're out on the battlefield, all of us ZAFT mobile suit pilots are the same, right? Regardless of whether we're FAITH, red uniforms, or green uniforms. We're nothing like the Earth Forces who seem incapable of fighting except in huge groups under orders.

Well, Mr. Westenfluss, fighting in huge and organized groups under clearly-defined orders is a hell of a lot more effective and efficient than just having the ZAKUs under your command engage in a massive clusterfuck as they all individually try to decide what they should do next. The redcoat with the FAITH pin on his lapel is obviously different from the green-suited cannon fodder guy. Those "walls" are the only thing that will save those greencoats from the Blue Cosmos menace.

[Sidewinder]

The redcoat with the FAITH pin on his lapel is obviously different from the green-suited cannon fodder guy. Those "walls" are the only thing that will save those greencoats from the Blue Cosmos menace.

Are you being sarcastic about Durandal's tendency to give FAITH pins like candy? If so, I can understand your position, considering many of the FAITH members have questionable loyalty (Athrun), ability (Heine), and/or sanity (Shinn).

[Black Admiral]

Of dubious sanity Shinn may be, but he has something the rest of the Minerva's crew lack - a functioning moral compass, however erratic and otherwise flawed Shinn's is.

I do not think it necessary to go on a tirade about how utterly bloody stupid vivisecting a prisoner of war is, but the two officers on the Minerva who should've known better there (Talia and the CMO) did not, as far as is known, object to the idea on either personal or professional grounds.

A picture is not, I think, required to say that the sense of ethics ZAFT instils in its officers is somewhat, ah, lacking in various areas.

[Warsie]

In general, ZAFT pilots seem to fight as individuals, with only the most rudimentary efforts at coordination between one another; the EAF fight as part of a team - I can dig up more examples if necessary.

True, Heine Westenfluss admitted that they were more individualistic.

Heine said that that was a strength of the ZAFT though, able to think alone and not having to fight as a team like you said (some of the original harassmant of the Reguirem by Yzak Joule was decentralized harassment; would it better if it was more coordinated)