Church shootings in Colorado.

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SirNitram
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Church shootings in Colorado.

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COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. -- A gunman opened fire in the parking lot of a Colorado Springs church on Sunday, striking four people, the church's pastor said.

The conditions of the people shot outside the New Life Church were not known, El Paso County Sheriff's Lt. Lari Sevene said.

Lance Coles, a pastor at New Life Church, told The Associated Press he received a report that a man was shooting at people in the church parking lot and that the gunman may have entered the church.

It was not immediately known whether the shootings were related to an earlier shooting about 70 miles away in the Denver suburb of Arvada. There, two people died and two were wounded early Sunday when a gunman opened fire in a dormitory at a missionary training center on the campus of Faith Bible Chapel.

New Life was founded by the Rev. Ted Haggard, who was fired last year after a former male prostitute alleged he had a three-year cash-for-sex relationship with him.

Haggard, then the president of the National Association of Evangelicals, admitted committing undisclosed "sexual immorality."

The church is one of Colorado's largest with about 10,000 members.
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ARVADA, Colo. (AP) — Two youths shot in a dormitory at a training center for Christian missionaries Sunday have died, police said. A gunman walked the dormitory in this Denver suburb early Sunday and opened fire, striking at least four people, police said. The condition of the others was not immediately clear.

The gunman was still at large Sunday morning.
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chitoryu12
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Post by chitoryu12 »

Clearly an organized terrorist attack by the evil atheist forces that are oppressing all that is good and Godly!

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Re: Church shootings in Colorado.

Post by Hawkwings »

SirNitram wrote:
three-year cash-for-sex relationship with him.
Just so we're clear what sort of relationship this was, right?
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Post by RIPP_n_WIPE »

When I heard about this on NPR aparently one of the assailants was killed by an armed security guard at the church.

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Post by Rye »

As much as I am for reminding everyone of Ted Haggard and disgracing him further, that's a bit tasteless right there.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Interesting Article
Larry Bourbonnais, a combat-tested Vietnam veteran, said it was the bravest thing he's ever seen.

Bourbonnais, who was among those shot by a gunman Sunday at New Life Church, watched as a security guard, a woman later identified as Jeanne Assam, calmly returned fire and killed the shooter.

"She just started walking toward the gunman firing the whole way," said Bourbonnais, who was shot in the arm. "She was just yelling 'Surrender,' walking and shooting the whole time."

Bourbonnais, 59, had just finished up a hamburger in the cafeteria on the sprawling church campus when he heard gunfire, he recalled.
He headed in the direction of the shots as frightened people ran past him looking to escape to safety. "Where's the shooter? Where's the shooter?" Bourbonnais kept yelling, he recalled.

Near an entryway in the church, Bourbonnais came upon the gunman and an armed male church security guard who was there with his gun drawn but not firing, he said.

Bourbonnais said he pleaded with the armed guard to give him his weapon.

"Give me your handgun. I've been in combat, and I'm going to take this guy out," Bourbonnais recalled telling the guard. "He kept yelling, 'Get behind me! Get behind me!' He wouldn't hand me his weapon, but he wouldn't do anything."

There was an additional armed security guard there, another man, who also didn't fire, Bourbonnais said.

Bourbonnais yelled at the gunman to draw his attention, he said.
"First, I called him 'Coward' then I called him 'S---head' " Bourbonnais said. "I probably shouldn't have been saying that in church."
That's when the shooter pointed one of his guns at Bourbonnais and fired, he said.

Bourbonnais ducked behind a hollow, decorative pillar and was hit in the arm by a bullet and fragments of the pillar.

At about that moment, Assam turned a corner with a drawn handgun, walked toward the gunman and yelled "Surrender!" Bourbonnais said.
The gunman pointed a handgun at Assam and fired three shots, Bourbonnais said. She returned fire and just kept walking toward the gunman pressing off round after round.

After the gunman went down, Bourbonnais asked Assam, a volunteer security guard with the church, how she remained so calm and focused.
Bourbonnais said she replied:
"I was asking the Holy Spirit to guide me the entire time."
Wow. That's just a crazy story right there.
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Post by Superman »

Obviously the armed guard was justified, but since when do churches have them?
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Post by Turin »

That's all well and good, but does anyone else find it a little strange that a church would have three pistol-armed security guards like that? What kind of church is this, anyway?
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Post by Isolder74 »

Since people bomb churches.
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Post by Turin »

Damn, post-ninja'd by Superman! :oops:
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Post by Rahvin »

Superman wrote:Obviously the armed guard was justified, but since when do churches have them?
About the same time they got large enough to have their own cafeterias, and be called a "sprawling campus."
The article wrote:Bourbonnais, 59, had just finished up a hamburger in the cafeteria on the sprawling church campus when he heard gunfire, he recalled.
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Post by Lagmonster »

After the gunman went down, Bourbonnais asked Assam, a volunteer security guard with the church, how she remained so calm and focused.
Bourbonnais said she replied:
"I was asking the Holy Spirit to guide me the entire time."
I'm glad that the woman kept her head and stopped the killer, but there's a small part of the back of my mind which is wholly terrified of people who calmly shoot people while claiming guidance from non-existent entities. It's just...eerie.
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Post by Sriad »

Also, area mega-churches had heard about the earlier shooting and were operating with heightened security.
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Post by Schuyler Colfax »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Interesting Article
~snip~
This article says different
(CNN) -- Matthew Murray, the man who police say shot and killed four people at two separate locations in Colorado on Sunday, died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound, the coroner's office said Tuesday.


A former roommate took this photo of Matthew Murray performing in a 2002 Christmas program.

"The death of Matthew Murray has been ruled a suicide," the El Paso County Coroner's Office said in a statement.

"It should be noted that he was struck multiple times by the security officer, which put him down. He then fired a single round killing himself," the statement said.

Police Sgt. Skip Arms told The Associated Press that Murray shot himself in the head.

Police say before Murray, 24, went down, he shot and killed sisters Stephanie and Rachael Works, ages 18 and 16, and wounded their father, who was in or near their car in the parking lot of New Life Church in Colorado Srings, Colorado.

Murray also wounded two other people with his assault rifle as he re-entered the church.

One of them, Larry Bourbonnais, described the gunman to CNN. "He was all in black. And he was very calm and collected, just, not moving his head from side to side, but he was just kind of checking things out," Bourbonnais said.

Bourbonnais said he tried to distract the shooter before security guard Jeanne Assam made her move. Watch Bourbonnais describe the scene at New Life »

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Assam said she found cover in the lobby after Murray opened fire in the church parking lot and walked into the building. She said she waited for him to approach, identified herself as a security guard, and shot him -- "and that's pretty much it."

"I'm telling you right now, she's the hero, not me. It was the bravest thing I have ever seen," Bourbonnais said. "She had no cover. He fired -- I heard him fire three. I heard her fire three. And she just began -- she kept yelling 'Surrender!' the whole time. And she just walked forward, like she's walking to her car in the parking lot, firing the whole time."

Bourbonnais said when he and Assam reached Murray, "he had slumped backwards, slid down on the floor, and expired."

The assault at New Life Church came about 12 hours after Murray shot and killed two people and wounded two others at the Youth With a Mission center in Arvada, Colorado, 80 miles away, police said.

Brady Boyd, senior pastor of New Life Church, told reporters Tuesday he and his church had already forgiven Murray, even though he is still angry about what happened.

"But being angry and being unforgiving are two different things," Boyd said.

"I forgave him immediately. I can't imagine what caused him to do that. I'm sad for his parents, who are having to bury a young son. But forgiving him was an immediate response of our heart," the pastor said.

He also vowed that his congregation would hold its regular services as scheduled next weekend.

Boyd said members will hold a family meeting Wednesday. "We will gather to worship, pray, mourn and begin our healing process," a statement said.

That process would be helped if the reason Murray committed these acts was known, the pastor said.

"If we could find some motive, some written motive or some recorded motive that he gave, it would be helpful for the healing process, sure, because that is the question: Why? Why, why, why is going to be the number one question that we answer," he said.

Some answers may be gleaned from a warning Murray posted online just 90 minutes before he went to New Life Church.

The message attributed to Matthew Murray -- using the screen name "nghtmrchld26" -- mirrored the wording of a warning posted by in 1999 by Eric Harris before he and Dylan Klebold went on a shooting rampage at Columbine High School.

"I'm coming for EVERYONE soon and I WILL be armed to the @.%$ teeth and I WILL shoot to kill," the posting obtained by KUSA read. This was the same wording used by Harris, with the exception of symbols used to replace an expletive.

Murray, who lived in Englewood, Colorado, just 13 miles from the Columbine campus, titled his entry "You Christians brought this on yourselves." It was published on a Web site for people who had left Pentecostal and fundamentalist religious groups.

The message, first reported Monday by CNN affiliate KUSA-TV, was taken off line by the site's administrator after he talked to the FBI.

The posting on the online forum -- maintained by the group Association of Former Pentecostals -- indicated it was published at 11:03 a.m. on Sunday. The New Life Church shooting happened at 1:10 p.m. on Sunday. The shooting at Youth With A Mission happened shortly after midnight, Saturday.

A memorial service was scheduled for Wednesday for the two staff members there who were killed, Tiffany Johnson, 26, and Philip Crouse, 24, according to the group's co-founder, Peter Warren.

Richard Werner, 34, told CNN Monday that he trained with Murray at the center in 2002. He said Murray exhibited strange behavior -- including saying he heard voices -- and was told that he would not be allowed to join the group on a mission trip to Bosnia.

The Youth With A Mission center said that "Murray was briefly a student at the YWAM Arvada training center in 2002. He was enrolled in a Discipleship Training School but did not complete the program."

Warren said Murray was not allowed to join the trip because of unspecified health concerns.

A branch office of Youth With A Mission was located at the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, sources said.

A YWAM statement said the Works sisters had participated in one of their programs. The girls were "involved with a summer outreach organized by New Life Church and a ministry of YWAM which rents office space in the New Life campus," the center said.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/11/colora ... index.html
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Post by FSTargetDrone »

"It should be noted that he was struck multiple times by the security officer, which put him down. He then fired a single round killing himself," the statement said.
If this is right, it seems the guard still stopped him, wounding him to the point where he decided to finish things by offing himself.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

FSTargetDrone wrote:
"It should be noted that he was struck multiple times by the security officer, which put him down. He then fired a single round killing himself," the statement said.
If this is right, it seems the guard still stopped him, wounding him to the point where he decided to finish things by offing himself.
Yeah, he was definitely stopped by the guard, and then the guy was apparently basically of the attitude "won't take me alive", and laying there wounded brought his gun up to his own head.
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Post by EmperorChrostas the Cruel »

The security guard in question is also a retired police officer. I hope she doen't have adverse affects from this. May her dreams and soul be free of guilt, for this is a clear case of the hypothetical "can you kill to save dilema". This guy showed up with multiple weapons and several hundred rounds of ammo. His stated goal was to kill as many as possible. (threatening e mails) He had also already killed in an other church shooting linked by forensics.
Hmmmmmm.

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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

EmperorChrostas the Cruel wrote:The security guard in question is also a retired police officer. I hope she doen't have adverse affects from this. May her dreams and soul be free of guilt, for this is a clear case of the hypothetical "can you kill to save dilema". This guy showed up with multiple weapons and several hundred rounds of ammo. His stated goal was to kill as many as possible. (threatening e mails) He had also already killed in an other church shooting linked by forensics.
Indeed. I heard his email on the radio; He wanted to kill as many Christians as possible, since they were the source of most of the world's problems.
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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Indeed. I heard his email on the radio; He wanted to kill as many Christians as possible, since they were the source of most of the world's problems.
That kid is not only fucked up, but his reasoning is fucked in the head too. Christians are not the source of problems, Fundamentalism of every kind is, as well as greed and human tribalistic us-vs-them mentality.
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Post by RIPP_n_WIPE »

Hey hey hey now. I mentioned the armed church guards first! :P

I am the hammer, I am the right hand of my Lord. The instrument of His will and the gauntlet about His fist. The tip of His spear, the edge of His sword. I am His wrath just as he is my shield. I am the bane of His foes and the woe of the treacherous. I am the end.


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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

And right-wing extremists are already blaming something called the 'Secular Media' for it when it's very plainly obvious this has nothing to do with anything outside the evangelical community.
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Post by SirNitram »

Apparently he washed out of the Mission there.

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Post by chitoryu12 »

Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:And right-wing extremists are already blaming something called the 'Secular Media' for it when it's very plainly obvious this has nothing to do with anything outside the evangelical community.
Well it didn't take much to predict that, now, eh? The moment someone bashes Christianity, it seems, the fundies think that one voice speaks for a million.
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Post by Davis 51 »

Here's what GamePolitics has to say. (Bolding mine)
Matthew Murray, who killed four people and wounded several others during a pair of horrific church shootings over the weekend, apparently wasn’t permitted to play video games while growing up.

The Denver Post reports:

"On another website, a poster named nghtmrchld26, believed by police to be Murray, said he rebelled against an upbringing that forbade him from buying rock music, video games and popular DVDs."

Meanwhile, the All Spin Zone has published a lengthy collection of Murray’s online postings:

"Growing up, TV, Internet/computers, video games, music, Christian contemporary music, movies and books were all extremely restricted."

Despite that, Murray apparently did play some unspecified video games:

"Yeah Diamond girl, when I was a teenager my mother would do a pat down to check for music, DVDs and video games whenever I came out of an electronics store like Best Buy or Circuit City. I’d still obtain things anyways, it was like getting drugs from a drug dealer, EVERYTHING had to be done in secret. lol

I remember getting thrown around the room and hit while getting interrogated about whether or not I had video games and DVDs… I remember having to listen to everything in secret, at very low volume levels or with headphones, whether it was video games, TV, DVDs, or music/radio."

GP: It’s always difficult to know whether to even raise this issue in the aftermath of a shooting rampage. However, since the Denver Post gives it a mention, I believe it is appropriate for discussion. And, of course, we know that certain critics will be pushing a video game connection, however tenuous, in any tragedy like this.

In the final analysis, Murray seems like a very depressed, very angry, very disturbed young man who had access to weapons.
Very sad.
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