Is this "no true scotsman" ?

hawkwind · Post by **hawkwind** » 2007-12-13 02:00pm

I m debating this girl. Aparently after 9 years on theological faculty she does not understand building of rational argument.
Essentially she dismissed all my arguments about bible by saying that everything in bible has "different understanding" or "other meaning" and that I only read it and dont understand since "I m not christian".
When I asked her for explanation of some passages she as whole life christian and theology graduate should be able to explain, she is incapable of producing said explanation.
She is also evangelical and wants to convert to catolicism.
I asked her why, she says that its because reasons for reformation are long gone. I asked her what were the reasons - and she apparently gave me list of the consequences of reformation rather than reasons for it.

Comments?

J.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2007-12-13 02:16pm

It's an ad hominem fallcy, yeah. It's also question-begging the impact of Christian faith on textual interpretation, a Wiccan, atheist, jew and Christian may come to the same conclusion about a biblical passage independently because they're honest researchers, not because of any vested interest in adhering to existent traditional interpretations.

hawkwind · Post by **hawkwind** » 2007-12-13 03:12pm

We are now on topic of apparent biblical racism. Once I puled out the issues between Izraelites and Canaanites, she had fallen into denial : "But no Christian will interpret this passage like this!"

J.

B5B7 · Post by **B5B7** » 2007-12-14 12:12am

and that I only read it and dont understand since "I m not christian".

However, as Richard Dawkins indicated with his recent announcement that he is a "cultural Christian", most of us in Western society grew up as Christians.
So, no matter what we are now, her argument in that regard doesn't wash.
Also, by her own argument she can't understand the Old Testament as she is not a Jew (presumably), and can't understand Shakespeare as she is not an Englishman.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-12-14 01:47am

hawkwind wrote:We are now on topic of apparent biblical racism. Once I puled out the issues between Izraelites and Canaanites, she had fallen into denial : "But no Christian will interpret this passage like this!"

J.

Does she ever explain why the interpretation is incorrect, other than simply saying she prefers a different one?

hawkwind · Post by **hawkwind** » 2007-12-14 04:40am

No she is unable to say anything about "the other" interpretation.

Me : "Look this part clearly shows racism."
She: "Your interpretation is wrong, no christian would read it like that."
Me: "Well you are educated so explain me a christian standpoint."
She: "That would take long time."
Me: "I have whole evening."
She: "There is religious issue described, not racial."
Me (using Mikes argument from Creationist pages): "Then just switch the names - use modern name and replace "Canaanite" by "Black".
She - apparently shocked, doesnt knows what to say.

J.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2007-12-14 08:20am

Seems pretty straightforward to me. Just keep pointing out she's a woman and therefore her views aren't going to be logical and women are subservient to men according to the Bible. It's the exact same reasoning she's using and will no doubt infuriate her to all hell, so it's worth it.

DavidEC · Post by **DavidEC** » 2007-12-14 09:05am

Lots of ways to approach this one. All of them How about this one?

You: Do you need to be a true Christian to truly understand the Bible?

Expected answer: Yes.

You: Do you need to truly understand the Bible to be a true Christian?

Expected answer? Yes. (Assuming she believes the Bible to be the core of Christianity.)

You: How do you become a Christian then?

DavidEC · Post by **DavidEC** » 2007-12-14 09:05am

PS Second sentence in my post should read: "All of them should be employed to give a comprehensive refutation."

Feil · Post by **Feil** » 2007-12-14 10:38am

Expected answer: Pray to receive Jesus Christ.

Logic does not apply. You cannot change the minds of these people quickly. They have been brainwashed for decades. It will take months of grinding just to get to the point where they will think about things related to their religion. Hawkwing, if you're willing to do that, then you're golden - keep doing exactly what you have been doing. Just expect it to take time.

hawkwind · Post by **hawkwind** » 2007-12-14 11:04am

Another round...
Me : "What do you think by "family values" , christians actually have higher divorce rate than atheist."
She : "Hmmm didnt you wanted to say "the same" "
Me : "No I said higher, there are studies which show it quite nicely (googles a while).
She : Shocked, doesnt know what to say.
Me : Did you really expected that marriage in which one partner is treated like possesion will be healthier?

Its like I m actually opening cans of worms she never imagined they might exist....
We know each other personally - actually, she is cute girl, and every time I fire out something like this I can see her gasp.

So I dont want to bash her, I want her t start doubt.

She was equally shocked when I showed her that bible lists women among livestock.

I mean - not only she is christian, she is theology graduate right, I expected that she knows the scripture. I also thought they have courses on rhetoric, or debating classes, but she clearly does not understand the idea of argument, much less discussion.

Yes and she acussed me of "being unable to change my views."

J.

DavidEC · Post by **DavidEC** » 2007-12-14 11:09am

Just say, 'I haven't heard anything so far to change my views.'

Zixinus · Post by **Zixinus** » 2007-12-14 11:14am

Ya'know I sincerely wonder what kind of fucking education system gives you nine years of study and afterwards make the same arguments as a 13-year old would.

I think she doesn't understand logic or the idea of reason. Her arguments sound perfectly authority-based. If I were you, I would mention that.

hawkwind · Post by **hawkwind** » 2007-12-15 05:24am

Ya'know I sincerely wonder what kind of fucking education system gives you nine years of study and afterwards make the same arguments as a 13-year old would.

That has more to do with fact its theology. I wasnt able to find out to this day what their courses actually consist of. There will be som things like history of religion and generall things, but I dont thing they actually take any courses similar to people who study philosophy - such as formall logic, rhetorics or something in the sense. She is also cdoes not seem to have a clue about helenic culture, other than general - because when I spake about Socrates, she didnt knew what I m speaking about.
That is in country which is absolutelly secular, in which christian oriented parties have minority in parlament and where there is like60 to 70 percent of atheist. That is actually cold splash on me, because I sincere didnt think that fundies in this manner exist in my country. I always thought that fundie is somebody on the verge of fringe.
This is nation of Josef Schweik, we mock anything and anybody.
But it des not seem to stop them.

Just say, 'I haven't heard anything so far to change my views.'

- The point is I dont want to change my views, I want her change hers.
The only way to do is is to introduce something they arent able to diggest.
I have another friend, which is I must admit very nice person in his own way. Unfortunatelly he is fundie of hardest caliber. American mid west) I spent whole evening talking with him about christianity and he wasnt actually able to disect any point about quotation of bible I made, he always only found another part and said that in this matter he thinks this part is right. This is off course serom and wont take you far.
I said that the book lacks both historical accuracy and literal consistency despite more than 2000 years of redaction. He said that to him as christian is perfectly clear and consistent.
Desperate, in the end I eventually said, that Jesus was doubtfull man himself and that he expressed himself in this matter more than once and more so in the moment of his death.
That was large caliber, which couldnt be ignored. That man was seriously doubting everything at this moment. Jesus is the authorirty which cannot be taken lightly if you are fundie.
So I feel if you really want to break that person and make her doubt, which makes her think, the only way is to introduce paradox they both cannot outwear but also cannot ignore.

J.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-12-15 11:21am

Zixinus wrote:Ya'know I sincerely wonder what kind of fucking education system gives you nine years of study and afterwards make the same arguments as a 13-year old would.

I think she doesn't understand logic or the idea of reason. Her arguments sound perfectly authority-based. If I were you, I would mention that.

The problem is that they apply a completely different standard to religion than to reality. I've met people who understand completely about how you can't trust uncorroborated historical sources at face value, and yet do precisely that to the Bible.