Speed Cameras = Safety Mechanism or Money Making Machine?

[Mr Bean]

They don't modify behavior? You're telling me that after someone receives a speeding ticket due to a speed camera that they won't be driving down the road thinking "Man, there might be a speed camera around I better slow down"?

The correct response is
"Man there's a speed camera on that road, I'm not going to drive on that road or alternativly, "The speed camera is just past 4th Street, I'll drive slow past it then speed back up"

It's not behavior modification, at least not the long term useful kind.

[Kamakazie Sith]

You’ve already got a computer in the car that can do the recording, and you’ve already got a digital speed signal from the ECU to the vehicles own speedometer. All that you need is a program to make a graph of that input and a wire to connect the two. That’s tens of dollars per vehicle for wire, irrelevant compared to the amount of money police spend on gas. I have seen police dash cam videos which had the cars own speed as one of the bits of display data, so clearly someone has already thought of and implemented this, it’s just not standard.

Okay. Now do the supervisors have time to review these tapes to make sure they aren't speeding in a specific zone. The answer is they don't. I wouldn't be against this idea if it weren't impossible to monitor.

Sounds like an admission that speed cameras are unfair then

What? How is something that records you breaking the law, unfair? If they're issuing tickets to people only going 5 over then I agree with you, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Actually I’ve seen law enforcement officers say exactly that and more then once. I’ve even read an interview with a state trooper pilot who flies a Cesena for highway patrol and he said he prioritizes tailgating over speeding, because it’s more likely to cause trouble, yet harder for his fellow officers on the ground to spot.

Then those officers are idiots. It's the limitations of human perception and reaction time that make speeding the biggest contributor to accidents. Yes, following too close can be a cause, but usually speed is the biggest contributor especially in fatal accidents.

If he didn't pass going 50% faster then me, I might have been able to get his number to do just that. I have reported my local police for fucking repeatedly driving the wrong up a one way street near my house. Course these same wonderful people are now busily dealing with a lawsuit steaming from one of them having hit and almost killed a pedestrian crossing legally at a corner, and then attempting to pin everything on the victim despite numerous eyewitnesses.

Good for you. I don't see how this makes speeding cameras wrong though?

You know, I don’t hate cops, I know the job is extremely difficult any day of the week, but some days I see them doing shit that really makes it hard to keep that mindset. I’d have to say my biggest button is the issue of ‘smart guns’ which are used by no police department in the world (despite the fact that a cop is quite likely to have his gun stolen in a struggle) and yet countless police have testified to the media that we’d all be much safer if the general public was forced to use them.

From what I understand smart gun technology isn't reliable right now, and that's why it isn't being used.

Sorry I don’t have the last three years of local papers locked away for reference, but it pretty much stems from the huge murder wave the city has been suffering, which is becoming so well known that tourist revenue has been significantly reduced. The cities solution to that has been to advertise more, rather then hiring more cops. Just this September the cities police commissioner made a more then slightly dubious decision in the absence of more funding, this murder wave should be tackled by forming a 10,000 strong vigilante unit to actually foot patrol the streets. Thankfully its not on the job just yet.

That makes a bit more sense. At first it seemed like you were implying that they had a policy not to assist, and not that they were just too busy to assist.

In any case, the location this cop was at and his direction of travel would have meant he was putting at least four other police departments between the Philadelphia city limits and any crimes scene he could have been heading too. I don’t fucking buy the legitimate mission excuse for an instant, and it’s not like this is the only time I’ve ever seen cops flying along on the highway with no apparent purpose.

Again, the purpose isn't always apparent. These complaints of yours aren't good reasons for your dislike of a speed limit, or speeding cameras.

[LadyTevar]

Take a look at two states
One is West Virigina, land of steep mountains, 500 foot drops and beware of falling rock signs most places. It snows often and any road is constantly winding between hills and mountains in addition to either driving up or downhill.

The average highway speed limit in the great state of West Virgina?
-65 Miles per hour, with several highways being 70 or 75 mile per hour roads.

I will point out that the 65-75mph signs are on InterState roadways, such as I-64, I-70, I-77, and I-79. Those roadways are 2-3 lanes, appropriately banked, with wide shoulders and "slowtraffic" truck lanes as needed on the hills.

The fact that I do 60-65 on a lesser 2-lane road, and 40-50 on a mountain with "Curve: 20mph" signs, with a 500-700 ft drop into the New River Gorge just says I'm a very skillful driver.
BTW: this is the same road where a woman hit a patch of blackice and flew/fell over the side WithOut Touching The GuardRail. If there'd not been a man see her go over, no one would ever have known or seen her car 50ft down, slammed into a tree.
She lived.

[Kamakazie Sith]

They don't modify behavior? You're telling me that after someone receives a speeding ticket due to a speed camera that they won't be driving down the road thinking "Man, there might be a speed camera around I better slow down"?

The correct response is
"Man there's a speed camera on that road, I'm not going to drive on that road or alternativly, "The speed camera is just past 4th Street, I'll drive slow past it then speed back up"

It's not behavior modification, at least not the long term useful kind.

There is no long term solution to speeding that I'm aware of.

[FSTargetDrone]

With respect to stoplight cameras as revenue-generating machines, at least in Philadelphia (since Sea Skimmer's been talking about Philadelphia), it's bringing in about $1.2 million US each year.

[Darth Wong]

Wait a minute, I see people saying that speed cameras are totally useless for preventing accidents because there are other factors that cause accidents, such as tailgating. Ergo, they reason that speed itself is virtually irrelevant to the accident rate, despite the well-known limitations of human reaction time and automotive traction. Do you guys seriously believe that?

Speed Cameras don't change anything behavior wise, Wong if a person was driving down the road at 85 mph on a 55 mph road, they see a flash, get a picture taken by a Camera what are they going to do?

Slow down?
Ignore it?
Speed by?

Most likely ignore it, if they saw the flash to begin with(And not all speed cameras need to flash) they might possibly slow down, but what can they do?

Unless you blanket the roads with these Camera's, they don't modify behavior like a State Trooper will.

What are you, fucking retarded? That's like saying that being punched in the face will not alter your behaviour. It won't make you go back in time and retroactively avoid doing whatever it was that caused you to get punched in the face, but you can bet you'll be thinking about it next time.

It appears that logic goes completely out the window when petulant adults whine about getting penalized for breaking the law.

Yes, state troopers are a more effective behavioural modification technique. But black/white fallacies don't fly in this forum any better than they fly in any other forum, my friend.

[CmdrWilkens]

Here's the problem:

Lets take a look at a road such as Interstate 95. For simplicity sake, and since I've travelled it continuouslyfor the last 8 years. I will speak only of the portion between the Virginia (north of Richmond) and the Pennsylvannia state line.

Speed Limit by section (with addtional notations on populaiton density and lane availability)


Exit VA 86 to Exit VA 158:
65 MPH
- 3 lanes each direction.
- Principally rural/ex-urban until final 15 miles after approaching and passing Marine Corps Base Quantico, Exit VA 148.
- 2 additional Bi-directional HOV lanes after Exit VA 150


Exit VA 158 to Exit VA 163
60 MPH
- 3 lanes each direction.
- 2 Bi-directional HOV lanes. HOV lanes have seperate speed limit of 65 MPH
- Principally suburban traffic increasing slowly northward


Exit VA 163 to Exit MD 27
55 MPH
- 4 lanes each direction (excepting the Woodrow Wilson Bridge, 3 lanes each way, will be 6 starting approx 2010)
- 2 Bi-directional HOV lanes from Exit VA 163 until Exit VA 170, speed limit is 65 MPH
-Principally suburban though I-95/I-395,I-495 interchange ("The Mixing Bowl") is one of the busiest interchanges in the US.


Exit MD 27 to Exit MD 49
65 MPH
- 4 lanes each direction
- Principally suburban


Exit MD 49 to Exit MD 67
55 MPH
- 4 lanes each direction
- Principally urban as this runs through the SE section of Baltimore
- Toll segment passing through the Ft McHenry Tunnel

Exit MD 67 to DE/MD State Line
65 MPH
- 3 lanes each direction (4 lanes ExitMD67 to Exit MD 77)
- Suburban rapidly decreasing to exurban/rural north of Exit MD 77
- Northbound only toll plaza immediately prior to Exit MD 93
- Currently constructing HOT (High Occupancy/Toll) lanes south of Exit MD 77

DE/MD State Line to DE/PA State Line
55 MPH
- 4 lanes each direction
- Suburban increasing towards Wilmington where it becomes urban passing through the city.
- Toll segment approx 1 mile north of the MD/DE State Line




Now looking at all of that you may not get the perfect picture of the roadway but it passes through 2 urban zones and 2 major intersections and 3 toll segments at which one might think a lower speed is called for. Over the enire remaining distance the route is wide, gradually slopped, gradually cruved and general capable of sustaining MUCH higher speeds under fair or good weather. Nonetheless jurisdiction ALONE is the deciding factor as to the maximum speed. Most telling is that at the MD/DE line despite no change in the nature of the raod the speed limit abruptly drops by 10 MPH without ANY change in the road or the surrounding nature. Likewise the HOV lanes in VA continue at 65 MPH long after the mainline has dropped to 55 MPH because of the intention to tempt drivers into the HOV lanes. While that is a commendable effort it shouldn't be done with speed limits. It is crazy to believe that of 6 lanes traveling in a given direction 2 of them, by virtue of being HOV, are safe to travel 10 MPH faster. Simply put the speed limits imposed have no bearing on whether that is a safe speed to travel under ideal circumstances. That is my biggest gripe with speed limits.

Let me also add a disclaimer. Its still the law: if you get caught be a man and fucking pay your fine or go to court and bitch that it is unreasonable and then pay your fine after the judge decides he doesn't care about your perceived in justice. At the same time Speed Limits should be a reflection of the safe travel speed under current conditions. Until we actually have variable speed limits with velocities based upon visibility, condition of the road surface and volume then they will be uniformly arbitrary numbers and I have an ingrained dislike of arbitrary laws.

[Master of Ossus]

So I just recently got a ticket for speeding near my house, and it's from one of those fancy new speed cameras and what really gets me is that on the ticket, posted speed limit is 35, and my speed was 46; a mere 11 MPH over the limit; on a straight, EMPTY, non residental road.

Traffic lights have been shown to be extremely effective at reducing violations in Israel, VA, and CA: see Bar-Ilan and Sacerdote 2005. They found up to 40% reductions in violations at monitored intersections in a number of natural experiments. They might raise revenue, too, and it sounds like that was the primary goal of yours, but their effectiveness at promoting safe driving practices is pretty huge when they're deployed properly.

[Darth Wong]

To: CmdrWilkens:

Red-herring. All of those arguments would apply 100% if you had state troopers patrolling those roads instead of speed cameras. Therefore, they are totally inapplicable to an argument about speed cameras in particular.

[B5B7]

In my city they announce on the evening news which roads speed cameras will be placed on the following day - they still catch plenty of drivers. Often the same roads will have cameras on them for several consecutive days.
The information on speed (& red light) camera locations in Australia is also on the internet.

[Solauren]

Quite frankly, anyone that whines about Speed Cameras needs to have there liscence taken away.

Speed limits are there for reason, all of them for your safety, whether you recognize or like it or not.

The faster you go, the less control you have over your car
The longer it takes you to break (and effectively, the less time you have to break)
The faster you go, the more likely you are to lose control of your vehicle due to adverse road conditions.

Yes, there are some places where putting in a Speed Camera is a deliberate attempt to use laws as a cash grab, but so what?

You, as a driver, are supposed to know the speed limits, including the standard speed limit in areas it's not posted. If you arn't willing to learn them, or observe the speed limit, YOU ARE BREAKING THE LAW.

You're also putting other peoples lives at risk.

Do you know what the #1 and #2 causes of accidents are, outside of weather?

Following to closely and driving over the speed limit.

Quite frankly, I wish the penalties for alot of driving infractions were more serious. If you're speeding and don't have a damn good reason (i.e emergency personnelle like Doctors, Nurses, etc, who should be given sirens or something like that for those situtations, and be fined massively if they are found to be abusing them), you're showing that you're not responsible enough to obey a simple number, so why are we letting you drive a 4+ton Kinetic weapons?

Anyway, stop whinning over automated cameras. They only activate when you speed. Obvious solution; Don't speed. There are times it happens do to say a slightly off speedometer, wind assistance, or you misjudged your acceleration / deceleration, but a judge will likely toss those out.

But serious speeding, you're being assine, and putting peoples lives at risk. So stop being an asshole, and stop speeding.

[Vehrec]

Many speed cameras are set to ticket anyone as little as 3mph over the speed limit. This is a blatent revenue generation trick, and not a genuine safety measure or even a reasonable enforcement of the law. I know I can't tell the difference between 35 and 38 mph, even with the spedometer some times. And you can't look at the spedo all the time either. Setting them up at the bottoms of hills and such is even more trap-ish. Yeah, the only way to cheat the camera is to be driving so fast that you fly past it at over 150 mph. It's a bit unfair when you look at it like that.

[Darth Wong]

Many speed cameras are set to ticket anyone as little as 3mph over the speed limit.

How many, and how do you know this?

[K. A. Pital]

Many speed cameras are set to ticket anyone as little as 3mph over the speed limit.

Even if true, so fucking what? Stricter enforcement of law for revenue generation - oh noes...

[Darth Wong]

And of course, the kind of police officer who would set a speed camera to a hair-trigger would be super-lenient if he were forced to patrol that same radar trap personally, right?

[Darth Wong]

I wonder if the anti-camera people have considered the fact that there are a finite number of police officers available, and that any police officer who has to man a speed trap is a police officer who can't be doing other things at the same time, like investigating other kinds of crimes.

Perhaps they assume that policing is the only industry in the world where automation yields no productivity benefit whatsoever.

[Glocksman]

Many speed cameras are set to ticket anyone as little as 3mph over the speed limit.

Even if true, so fucking what? Stricter enforcement of law for revenue generation - oh noes...

It's anecdotal, but when I was in court years ago for a ticket, the judge threw out a 3 MPH over the limit ticket for the guy before me because he said that 'anyone's speedometer could be off by that much'.

Needless to say, the ticketee was pleased.

[K. A. Pital]

So ticketee pleasure is more important than statistically proven improved road safety and the freeing of police human reserve to occupy with other things, like more serious lawbreaking? Please tell me you didn't mean to say that.

[Darth Wong]

If I were tasked with setting up a camera-based speed reduction plan, I'd probably set up a shitload of mockup stations all over the city, and rotate the real cameras around randomly. You'd see cameras everywhere, but you'd never know which ones are real and which ones are decoys.

[Dahak]

Speed Cameras don't change anything behavior wise, Wong if a person was driving down the road at 85 mph on a 55 mph road, they see a flash, get a picture taken by a Camera what are they going to do?

Slow down?
Ignore it?
Speed by?

Most likely ignore it, if they saw the flash to begin with(And not all speed cameras need to flash) they might possibly slow down, but what can they do?

Unless you blanket the roads with these Camera's, they don't modify behavior like a State Trooper will.

Most people I know hit the breaks immediately after getting flashed, but then continue in normal speeds soon afterwards.
For educational purposes, they are useless in my opinion. I know no one in my circle of friends who said "Hm, I am driving slower now that I have been fined." People here see it as, well, a annoying but normal thing to be fined.

They don't modify behavior? You're telling me that after someone receives a speeding ticket due to a speed camera that they won't be driving down the road thinking "Man, there might be a speed camera around I better slow down"?

[Dahak]

Speed Cameras don't change anything behavior wise, Wong if a person was driving down the road at 85 mph on a 55 mph road, they see a flash, get a picture taken by a Camera what are they going to do?

Slow down?
Ignore it?
Speed by?

Most likely ignore it, if they saw the flash to begin with(And not all speed cameras need to flash) they might possibly slow down, but what can they do?

Unless you blanket the roads with these Camera's, they don't modify behavior like a State Trooper will.

They don't modify behavior? You're telling me that after someone receives a speeding ticket due to a speed camera that they won't be driving down the road thinking "Man, there might be a speed camera around I better slow down"?

Oops... delete above post, please...

Real text goes here:
Most people I know hit the breaks immediately after getting flashed, but then continue in normal speeds soon afterwards.
For educational purposes, they are useless in my opinion. I know no one in my circle of friends who said "Hm, I am driving slower now that I have been fined." People here see it as, well, a annoying but normal thing to be fined.

[Keevan_Colton]

If I were tasked with setting up a camera-based speed reduction plan, I'd probably set up a shitload of mockup stations all over the city, and rotate the real cameras around randomly. You'd see cameras everywhere, but you'd never know which ones are real and which ones are decoys.

There is an interesting system here on the motorway near my home, it's sort of a testbed for the technology at the moment. The cameras are all networked together, and they note the licence. speed and time that each vehicle passes. This is then stored and compared with later cameras along the road and the exits to provide an average speed for the time they were on the motorway.

It also has fringe benefits in policing that it can be networked with stolen car information or cars suspected in a robbery and so on to provide swift notice if they're on the motorways. The system is also being considered in a modified form for some built up areas as well.

[Androsphinx]

If you have a GPS system in the car (and they're pretty cheap these days), in many places you can get a patch which will let you know about cameras in advance, giving you time to slow and avoid being photographed.

[Dooey Jo]

And of course, the kind of police officer who would set a speed camera to a hair-trigger would be super-lenient if he were forced to patrol that same radar trap personally, right?

I bet the speed camera whiners are exactly the same crowd that whines "waah, the police officers should be out catching the real criminals, not enforcing speed limits and catching me" when real officers catch them speeding. Because we all know being a negligent little asshole by driving too fast for what's safe for a road (I don't care if you've done your own research, go tell your local government instead of trying to justify your breaking of the law) is not a real crime. I mean, only a couple of thousand people are killed because of it every year, right? It's totally morally justified!

[Keevan_Colton]

If you have a GPS system in the car (and they're pretty cheap these days), in many places you can get a patch which will let you know about cameras in advance, giving you time to slow and avoid being photographed.

Hence the average speed cameras.