Worst EU Author

[Desdinova]

Too bad that silly shit worked for his Order and Sidious, right?

Again, I point to the fact that it took a thousand years for his asshat plan to work. Krayt managed to do it in a tenth of that time--and, shock, he actually lived to see it's fruition. Bane did absolutely nothing, as far as I'm concerned, save managing to survive the unfathomably lame "Jedi vs. Sith" series.

Yeah, and legitimacy has what to do with following or political accomplishments. If a jackass usurps someone's throne or sets up a military dictatorship, and is famous, that makes him a legitimate successor? If the sedevacantist Antipope Peter II (Manuel Alonso Corral) has more followers than Saint Peter, is he a more legitimate claimant to being Bishop of Rome with respect to Roman Catholicism?

Ah, the old Catholic examples, but you're comparing apples and oranges here. The entire point of Bane's genius Sith Order is that some other, more powerful jackass usurps you and becomes the new big bad. It's rule by the strong, pure and simple. What, is your argument that Krayt isn't legitimate because the other Sith were all killed, and thus he couldn't kill them and take his rightful place? He has the power, and he calls the shots.

All this, however, is completely beside the point I was trying to make, which you conveniently missed. There are people here talking about Nihilus and the others as if they're the only arbiters of what it means to be a Sith; I'm arguing that they don't have a leg to stand on. Who made Nihilus a Sith Lord? Kreia? Fine, but who made her one? It's turtles all the way down when you start down that road.

Okay? Not only do political accomplishments - in a vacuum and not accounting for circumstances or other variables, as well - not necessarily imply more political skill, or proficiency in any other skill set. Again, if the sedevacantist Antipope Peter II has more followers than Saint Peter, is he a better theologian? A better politician? More divinely inspired? Is General Augusto Pinochet Ugarte, the successful leader of a military coup and thereafter, President of the Government Junta, a better tactician than the merely General George S. Patton? Marcus Antonius Gordianus (Gordian I) donned the purple and became the Emperor of Rome in 238. He ruled over a significantly larger territory than Prince Bismarck. Does that mean the former is a more successful leader than the latter? A more able politician?

Again, you elegantly miss the point entirely. Quote history all you want, but the fact is that the Sith line of succession is not about who is the better theologian. It is purely about who has the power. If all the groups you mentioned worked similarly, I suspect that they would be in much a similar state as the Sith themselves were, prior to Krayt--dead.

In this case, the three holocron 'spirits'--or gatekeepers, or whatever you call them--disapprove of Krayt. Well, that's just fine and dandy, but what did they ever accomplish? Did they overthrow not one, but two galactic governments? (Krayt did, making his rise to power anything but "in a vacuum"). Did they exterminate the Jedi Order? (Krayt all but has, despite their greater numbers, their Galactic Alliance allies and their aid from the Yuuzhan Vong). No, and no. They're dead and powerless, and, thus, resentful--and, yes, holocrons can clearly show resentment, being for all appearances mostly-sentient copies of the mind that created them.

Except you are implying that his finding and using the "glorified CD tutorial" automatically affords him with legitimacy with respect to the Sith religion, and also claiming that it is supporting evidence for his capability relative to other well-known Sith Lords. I never said that any of those Sith Lords' holocrons implied anything of the sort. Listening to Darth Sidious' editor's notes in the Telos Holocron does not make one the Sith Master of the Order of the Sith Lords. Nor does it make one the Galactic Emperor of the First Galactic Empire.

Have you read the comics? He didn't find the thing; it found him. Again, though, you come to the problem of legitimate succession, and here seem to cross your own wake. We fully agree that knowledge of a thing does not make you the supreme master of that thing, but since accomplishments matter so little to you... what does make a Sith 'legitimate'? Like Krayt, Palpatine took knowledge, applied it to gain power, and manipulated others to keep him in power. Just because Krayt didn't get down on his knees before the previous Sith Lord--who was, remember, quite dead--doesn't lessen his legitimacy at all.

In the end, Krayt has the power and following to declare himself Dark Lord of the Sith and back it up. Unlike the Church, or any other of your wonderfully irrelevant examples, power is all that seems to matter where the Sith are concerned. Stupid? Perhaps, but that's the way things go sometimes.

That doesn't make Hett intrinsically less of a stupid character, or less of a bad choice to be the evil terrible Sith Lord, who apparently cannot even get a break from millennia-old dead guys who're supposed to be his ideological forbearers. And regardless of how you spin it, they very very nearly killed him in order while making fun of his ass.

Another point in favor of their sentience, but remember that XoXaan--a much, much older Sith, and much more ancient ideological forebear--chose Hett as the legitimate successor to the Sith. He's demonstrated political manipulation skills worthy of rivaling Palpatine, martial prowess worthy of the greatest fighters in the Star Wars universe, and the indomitable force of will that is the ultimate characteristic of the Sith.

[Darth Fanboy]

He recieved his training from a Holocron of XoXaan, not the Sith herself. It does not discount the embarassing scolding he recieved from Bane, Nihlus, and Andeddu.

Thanks for the double-standard, there.

HArdly a double standard. My point is that he found aholocron, it isn't as if he were chosen by any means save for random occurences. He's basically learning from a textbook that he found left behind and he just so happens to able to use the Force to understand what's inside. There's nothing special about that

Those were all Holocrons as well, unless Sith Spirits now tie-in to their Holocrons.

Holocrons that refused to give him jack shit. Although your comment about the Sith Spirits thing is interesting, because what other explanation is there for Andeddu triggering Hett's condition?

[Desdinova]

It most certainly is a double standard. What, so Bane, Nihilus and Andeddu had holocrons that automatically confer legitimacy, but one that calls out to Hett and personally selects him is somehow just a textbook? And, yes, it did choose him.

XoXaan (disembodied voice-holocron not even activated): A'Sharad Hett...
*Hett activates holocron, after following the voice to the hidden tomb*
XoXaan: I am XoXaan. I was one of the first of the Sith Lords, one of those who abandoned the Jedi Order to seek a darker path to truth. My tomb has lain in the belly of this tomb for long ages, my presence hidden from those who sought me--until now. I have waited for someone like you... someone who has served the light and found it empty, who has found how lacking the Galaxy is. Someone who has known anger, hate... and despair.

Again, XoXaan's holocron found him. The thing may be a Sith spirit or it may not be, but whatever it's nature it certainly called him to it. That called him specifically to teach him establishes the point that this holocron seems to consider very much a legitimate candidate for the Sith, despite the bitching of Bane, Nihilus and Darth Imhot--er, Andeddu.

XoXaan: My brethren and I invented what it means to be Sith. Are you willing to open yourself to that truth?
Hett: Master... I am.

Emphasis not mine., on either count. That says it all, I think, in terms of which holocron has more of a right to make someone 'legitimate'.

[VT-16]

HArdly a double standard. My point is that he found aholocron, it isn't as if he were chosen by any means save for random occurences. He's basically learning from a textbook that he found left behind and he just so happens to able to use the Force to understand what's inside. There's nothing special about that

Bull-fucking-shit. He finds an ancient Sith Holocron that wants to teach him, later he finds three other Sith Holocrons that want nothing to do with him because he won't tow their party line.

Although your comment about the Sith Spirits thing is interesting, because what other explanation is there for Andeddu triggering Hett's condition?

If that's true, then Palpatine's spirit is still present, since he was a Gatekeeper in the Telos Holocron, according to TEGTTF.

[Darth Fanboy]

It most certainly is a double standard. What, so Bane, Nihilus and Andeddu had holocrons that automatically confer legitimacy, but one that calls out to Hett and personally selects him is somehow just a textbook? And, yes, it did choose him.

Or was Xoxaan just calling out to anyone who could hear? Your own quote says that the holocron was waiting for soemone who came along and fulfilled some semi-specific requirements. This on a planet that was supposedly stripped and cleaned of said artificacts at least a thousand years prior, perhaps longer.

Again, XoXaan's holocron found him. The thing may be a Sith spirit or it may not be, but whatever it's nature it certainly called him to it.

did it FIND him or did it CALL him. Pick one and stick with it. It either actively sought him out as a being or there was some sort of general call being sent out that Hett picked up on, which is it?

That called him specifically to teach him establishes the point that this holocron seems to consider very much a legitimate candidate for the Sith, despite the bitching of Bane, Nihilus and Darth Imhot--er, Andeddu.

Andeddu is credited as the first Sith to use the Darth Title, Nihilus partially resurrected the Sith along with Darth Sion after the Sith Empire fell apart post-REvan's departure, and Bane almost single handedly wiped out the Brotherhood of Darkness. Whatever you want to think about XoXaan, the three Sith Lords Krayt was practically begging for aid from had at some point been at the helm of the Sith, and know full well about what's going on.

XoXaan: My brethren and I invented what it means to be Sith. Are you willing to open yourself to that truth?
Hett: Master... I am.

Its a fancy sounding quote, but they invented what it meant to be Sith and it really didn't get them very far did it?

Emphasis not mine., on either count. That says it all, I think, in terms of which holocron has more of a right to make someone 'legitimate'.

XoXaan's holocron is found on Korriban, if she's claiming she's one of the first Sith of this time then she was almost certainly part of the Sith that arrived probably sometime around 6900 BBY if I remember my timeline right.

The so called Sith aren't even Sith at this point. They're Dark Siders who had their asses beat by the Jedi and ended up interbreeding with the Sith species. Being one of these Sith indicates that there was not even a Sith Order when she and the others would be arriving on Korriban.

You're whole argument is that Xoxaan's holocron is older so that must trump all, even though three other Sith Lords from three different eras thikn Krayt is a puke. Sorry if I don't buy it, but as you can see your argument doesn't really hold a lot of water, nor does it make the story any less crap.

[Battlehymn Republic]

This is asinine.

1. We don't even know what Hett's origin story was all about yet for at least a week or two before this month's issue comes out. Similarly, it's hard to gauge what the Galaxy is like in the Legacy Era. We don't even know what the GA did to screw up so badly.

2. Regardless of what you think of his character and the quality of the series, the Krayt's Sith Order is different from the Baneite tradition, and so isn't exactly easy to compare.

3. This is a massive tangent.

[Darth Fanboy]

Bull-fucking-shit. He finds an ancient Sith Holocron that wants to teach him, later he finds three other Sith Holocrons that want nothing to do with him because he won't tow their party line.

So he accidentally finds a holocron and is convinced to become a Sith. He ends up finding three other holocrons then and they all think he's a joke. That's one out of four and all Xoxaan has for a legacy is that she's old. Big Whoop. The holocron itself even admits that it wasn't looking for Hett specifically, he just happened to be in the right place at the right time in order to find it.

I have waited for someone like you...

Someone "like him" but not him specifically. Anyone with a Force connection was wasn't feeling to good about themselves could have come across this holocron and been able to find out what was inside.

If that's true, then Palpatine's spirit is still present, since he was a Gatekeeper in the Telos Holocron, according to TEGTTF.

I don't know if it's true or not, I had thought that Holocrons were only holographic representations that could interact with the person using it. Now with the Legacy series we find out that Holocrons can magically call people (or help them be found whichever story you are trying to stick with) and can exert some kind of power over the living (The crap plot devices one has to invent in order to basically rewrite a story that's already been told!). I don't think the Dark Empire holocrons quite showed that level of ability although they did have plenty of interactivity.

[VT-16]

That's one out of four and all Xoxaan has for a legacy is that she's old. Big Whoop.

That one is still a fucking Sith Lord and one of those who established the order to begin with.

The other three are a) an unknown who died and became a zombie, b) ate some planetary life juice, then died c) came up with a brilliant plan and trained an apprentice, then died.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Too bad that silly shit worked for his Order and Sidious, right?

Again, I point to the fact that it took a thousand years for his asshat plan to work. Krayt managed to do it in a tenth of that time--and, shock, he actually lived to see it's fruition. Bane did absolutely nothing, as far as I'm concerned, save managing to survive the unfathomably lame "Jedi vs. Sith" series.

And your opinion is meaningless without evidence. Krayt's dominion is the result of an opportunistic coup during a period of civil war. Without the cooperation of particular factions in the Second Galactic Empire, he'd have nothing. You think you can just waltz in and murder people and you're the fucking king now? He needed the political support of the Imperial apparatus. Lord Sidious subverted the entire galaxy's power structure, and did it by TPM with none the wiser.

Ah, the old Catholic examples, but you're comparing apples and oranges here. The entire point of Bane's genius Sith Order is that some other, more powerful jackass usurps you and becomes the new big bad. It's rule by the strong, pure and simple. What, is your argument that Krayt isn't legitimate because the other Sith were all killed, and thus he couldn't kill them and take his rightful place? He has the power, and he calls the shots.

So what? First of all, any yahoo who is more powerful than the reigning Sith Master of the Order of the Sith Lords is not ipso facto a legitimate Sith. Its contrary to the very films. Jedi General Tan Anakin Skywalker did not become Sith Apprentice of the Order of the Sith Lords after he overpowered and killed Lord Darth Tyranus. He became the Sith Apprentice when he was, y'know, apprenticed to the Sith Master, Lord Darth Sidious. Nor did Padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi become a Sith Apprentice upon killing Darth Maul, nor did Luke Skywalker become Sith Master upon defeating Darth Sidious. Moreover, the founder of the very Order we are discussing was one of the Sith Lords joining in criticism of the "pretender" (their words). So arguing that by internal technicality of the Order of the Sith Lords, Krayt is de facto legitimate is absurd, as the authority on the matter, Darth Bane, makes it clear that he is not. Simply putting on the hat and prancing around, or even getting a following, or even being successful does not make legitimate. Hence the Pope example.

All this, however, is completely beside the point I was trying to make, which you conveniently missed. There are people here talking about Nihilus and the others as if they're the only arbiters of what it means to be a Sith; I'm arguing that they don't have a leg to stand on. Who made Nihilus a Sith Lord? Kreia? Fine, but who made her one? It's turtles all the way down when you start down that road.

Who gives a shit how they originally became a Sith. They're obviously grandfathered in, since he is with the other indisputably legitimate Sith and joining in critiquing Krayt's Sith pretensions without irony. When you're talking about inherited title, pretender is the EXACT TERM for an illegitimate claimant. Wiki but whatever: "A Pretender is a claimant to an abolished throne or to a throne already occupied by somebody else." Need it spelled out anymore, dipshit? They are authorities on who is and is not a legitimate Sith, Krayt is not his own authority. Period.

Again, you elegantly miss the point entirely. Quote history all you want, but the fact is that the Sith line of succession is not about who is the better theologian. It is purely about who has the power. If all the groups you mentioned worked similarly, I suspect that they would be in much a similar state as the Sith themselves were, prior to Krayt--dead.

Yeah, except, I don't know, the Sith Lords themselves obviously disagree with you. In fact, they call him a pretender, and indisputable term in common usage for an illegitimate claimant to a throne occupied or abolished. So you obviously are just making up shit about Sith protocol and title in order to suit your argument. Dance around this all you want, but he is obviously less Sith than the prior incarnations, which are basically all represented and unanimously oppose his candidacy. Tough shit.

In this case, the three holocron 'spirits'--or gatekeepers, or whatever you call them--disapprove of Krayt.

Its they're actual spirits. Obviously otherwise they wouldn't be able to influence his state with the Force.

Well, that's just fine and dandy, but what did they ever accomplish? Did they overthrow not one, but two galactic governments? (Krayt did, making his rise to power anything but "in a vacuum"). Did they exterminate the Jedi Order? (Krayt all but has, despite their greater numbers, their Galactic Alliance allies and their aid from the Yuuzhan Vong). No, and no. They're dead and powerless, and, thus, resentful--and, yes, holocrons can clearly show resentment, being for all appearances mostly-sentient copies of the mind that created them.

Again, accomplishment and status does not make legitimacy. I have demonstrated this amply and with examples. Your reply is "nuh uh!" The Sith Lords obviously think pretensions to being a Sith are possible even if the position is vacant or the pretender defeated a Sith, so your assertion on Sith dogma is obviously wrong. Not only that, but we have it from the horse's mouth that Krayt's not a legitimate Sith. Get over it.

Have you read the comics? He didn't find the thing; it found him. Again, though, you come to the problem of legitimate succession, and here seem to cross your own wake. We fully agree that knowledge of a thing does not make you the supreme master of that thing, but since accomplishments matter so little to you... what does make a Sith 'legitimate'? Like Krayt, Palpatine took knowledge, applied it to gain power, and manipulated others to keep him in power. Just because Krayt didn't get down on his knees before the previous Sith Lord--who was, remember, quite dead--doesn't lessen his legitimacy at all.

What makes a Sith legitimate? I don't know, conforming to the laid down rules and protocol of who is and how one becomes a Sith Lord? Maybe? Maybe the previous Sith are authorities on that, and have, in fact, priorly resurrected the Sith by returning from the grave to legitimize Sith aspirants like Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma? What determines the legitimacy of any official, religious or secular? Monarchical or otherwise? Organizations have rules and protocols. People might overcome their predecessors. But no amount of say-so means that Napoleon I would have been a legitimate claimant to being the Bourbon dynast. Which is one reason he created the French Empire and had himself crowned emperor.

Krayt might be successful and powerful even with respect to previous Sith Lords, he may even be the Master of a new bastard schismatic pseudo-Sith cult. It may even be legitimized as part of the official Sith lineage in the future. But for the time being, the Sith Lords regard him as heretical at best, and pathetic at worst, and call him, straight up, a pretender. So he's not a legitimate Sith. He might be a de facto Sith, able to tangle with the best of him, but he's not a legitimate successor to the Sith.

In the end, Krayt has the power and following to declare himself Dark Lord of the Sith and back it up. Unlike the Church, or any other of your wonderfully irrelevant examples, power is all that seems to matter where the Sith are concerned. Stupid? Perhaps, but that's the way things go sometimes.

Except the Sith in this case TELL US WITH WHAT THEY ARE CONCERNED, and THEY TELL US KRAYT IS A PRETENDER.

Another point in favor of their sentience, but remember that XoXaan--a much, much older Sith, and much more ancient ideological forebear--chose Hett as the legitimate successor to the Sith. He's demonstrated political manipulation skills worthy of rivaling Palpatine, martial prowess worthy of the greatest fighters in the Star Wars universe, and the indomitable force of will that is the ultimate characteristic of the Sith.

A holocron is not the same thing as a Sith spirit. The three who denounced Krayt were summoned on Korriban and were able to influence him directly through the Force. The three were demonstrably Sith spirits. One may have a holocron without the survival of one's spirit (e.g., Lord Darth Sidious and the Telos Holocron). Furthermore, XoXaan is of the First Sith Empire, and there's no evidence she was the reigning Jen'ari of the Sith Empire, which makes her claim to the imprimatur dubious at best (if it was even a genuine Sith spirit and not just a recorded holocron). Notice it was not Ludo Kressh or Naga Sadow which legitimized Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma, but the last legitimately reigning Jen'ari, Marka Ragnos. We know for sure in Bane's case we're dealing with the last paramount leader of a Sith movement. And you can poopoo it all you want, but Krayt's still a pretender from the only authorities which matter. Furthermore, a quick check of Wookieepedia reveals that Hett stumbled upon it, and pumped it for information under the pretense of being a Sith Acolyte. So I suspect, especially from this last bit, that you're just stroking it to your comics and don't like anyone crapping on your wank parade. Well too bad.

Oh, and XoXaan is one of the original exiles: a dark Jedi. Since I doubt the corpus of Sith knowledge and tradition and techniques was formed and syncreted between Sith magic and Jedi arts in under the first generation, I doubt whether her abilities and knowledge are mature vis-a-vis even the First Imperial Sith. Furthermore, she's lying because we know that the exiles and the First Sith Empire were preceded by the "True Sith" of KOTOR lore. This is equivalent to finding a book by a rabbi who helped found a community of first century Christianity, and claiming that it means you are Pope.

[Illuminatus Primus]

That's one out of four and all Xoxaan has for a legacy is that she's old. Big Whoop.

That one is still a fucking Sith Lord and one of those who established the order to begin with.

The other three are a) an unknown who died and became a zombie, b) ate some planetary life juice, then died c) came up with a brilliant plan and trained an apprentice, then died.

Yeah, and you're acting like we know for sure its actually XoXaan's spirit (who gives a shit what some realistic tapedeck thinks?). You're also assuming that the corpus of Sithia had matured enough amongst the first generation of exiles that she could even be said to represent the Sith. You're also assuming she was in-charge and qualified to make rules in their new order, as opposed to some lackey who built a Holocron because she was bored and no one had any use for her because she was a dipshit. In Bane's case, we know he's legitimate and we know he was the reigning Jen'ari of a Sith movement. And we know those specters are actually Sith spirits.

Oh, and if XoXaan is such a Sith authority-supreme, why does he need to resort to going to Korriban to summon Sith spirits who try to kill him because he's a loser?

[Darth Fanboy]

That one is still a fucking Sith Lord and one of those who established the order to begin with.

Give me one reason other than "BUT SHE WAS FIRST". I dare you. She was part of a group of Dark Jedi whose biggest accomplishment was that they survived long enough to interbreed with an ancient species. The only reason she's a Sith is probably because she fucked one or two actual Sith beings almost 7,000 years before Hett found her holocron.

Give me one reason why I should give her opinion any more credence than I would three other Sith who were actually part of the Sith Order and not part of a group of Dark Jedi who eventually became the Sith.

The other three are a) an unknown who died and became a zombie,

The first to assume the Darth title that became a big part of Sith Tradition, and also a Sith who found a way to continue living even though his body had kept decaying. That's pretty important, since no other being has demonstrated such an ability and it is as close to immortality as a Sith has accomplished aside from Palpatine's life transfer technique (which was not my favorite thing in the world).

b) ate some planetary life juice, then died

Had the ability to transfer his own consciousnees into his armor, a power that your beloved Darth Krayt was wanting to learn quite badly. Also was, for a time, head of the Sith Order. A loftier position that xoxaan ever held. Lets not forget that he was also far more successful in his battle against the Jedi than almost any other Sith Lord.

c) came up with a brilliant plan and trained an apprentice, then died.

Came up with a brilliant plan that preserved the Sith Order for over a thousand years. A plan that culminated in the complete fucking over of the Jedi Order to the point where still even prior to the Ossus MAssacre in legacy never had the influence and strength it once had.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Don't you love this crowd? "B-b-but...she has some fucked up mongrel Sith babies, and their great great grandkids worked out a political and religious-Force doctrine recognizable as the Sith...so she made it!"

[Ritterin Sophia]

Just going back to the old age thing for a second, I do find it odd that some of you can't accept century old humans being the norm, I mean by this time in the Legacy of the Force Novels, Luke & Leia are around sixty and Han's about seventy, and they're all running around like they're still in their late thirties to early forties.

Also was, for a time, head of the Sith Order.

I asked Massacrus this before, where is this stated?

[VT-16]

Yeah, and you're acting like we know for sure its actually XoXaan's spirit

Since they're all eminating from the holocrons, none of them are any more than Gatekeepers, and have no other authority or significance than being imprints of their once-living counterparts. Whining about different Sith using different rules and norms and choosing one over the other arbitrarily, is nonsensical. This is the only thing shown of the scene, differences in ideology leading the older Sith to rebuke Krayt.

Since all the Gatekeepers are using the "My way is better because I say so " argument (including XoXaan), and you conveniently take some of these to fact, while the other is labelled irrelevant, it's nonsensical. And I don't love Krayt, I just don't fap to Sith lords just because they've got more exposition, which makes your defense of Andeddu all the more hilarious (what little info there is of him, has him cheat death, and cheating death =/= conquering or ruling a galaxy, which no Sith has ever done).

[Illuminatus Primus]

Yeah, and you're acting like we know for sure its actually XoXaan's spirit

Since they're all eminating from the holocrons, none of them are any more than Gatekeepers, and have no other authority or significance than being imprints of their once-living counterparts. Whining about different Sith using different rules and norms and choosing one over the other arbitrarily, is nonsensical. This is the only thing shown of the scene, differences in ideology leading the older Sith to rebuke Krayt.

Since the Gatekeepers are all using the "It is so because I say so and my way is better" argument (including XoXaan) and you conveniently take some of these to fact, while the other is labelled irrelevant. And I don't love Krayt, I just don't fap to Sith lords just because they've got more exposition, which makes your defense of Andeddu all the more hilarious (cheating death =/= conquering or ruling a galaxy, which no Sith has ever done).

It is established that some of the gatekeepers of some Sith holocrons are the actual Sith spirits of their makers. Not to mention, that mechanism is basically necessitated in this case, because how else did Andeddu make Krayt's armor consume him? Where'd that 'wizardry' come from, if not a Sith spirit using the Force? Is Krayt such a pussy that some tape deck making fun of him makes him physically fall apart? Furthermore, my argument does not require that the three mocking Sith were Sith spirits, even though the one to dub him a pretender most certainly is one anyway. Because you are not a legitimate Sith unless you are directly descended from an existing order by the accepted standards of succession or survival (Plagueis to Sidious in the former case, Kaan to Bane in the latter case), or unless you retroactively are legitimized by a dead Sith (Kun and Qel-Droma were not legitimate successors of the First Sith Empire until they received the endorsement directly from the last Jen'ari, Marka Ragnos).

Krayt, to be legitimate, requires that the three mocking Sith are just tape decks (explain the Andeddu 'wizardry' please), and that Xoxaan is a legitimate and qualified member of the Sith and not some tenuously-related forbearer or subaltern and also not a tape deck. Otherwise he's just a guy, Force abilities, political accomplishments, whatever, who watched some tape decks and then decided to run around in the proverbial black cowl. Doesn't mean he's automatically legitimate by default. That's an argument from ignorance.

[Desdinova]

Ah, gotta love the way these debates can turn utterly Byzantine over the course of a few hours of sleep...

did it FIND him or did it CALL him. Pick one and stick with it. It either actively sought him out as a being or there was some sort of general call being sent out that Hett picked up on, which is it?

Yes, it clearly sent out a general call with his exact name on it, when it had been on Korriban for thousands of years and never called anyone before. My mistake for using verbs interchangeably.

Andeddu is credited as the first Sith to use the Darth Title, Nihilus partially resurrected the Sith along with Darth Sion after the Sith Empire fell apart post-REvan's departure, and Bane almost single handedly wiped out the Brotherhood of Darkness. Whatever you want to think about XoXaan, the three Sith Lords Krayt was practically begging for aid from had at some point been at the helm of the Sith, and know full well about what's going on.

Fair point, but I thought accomplishments meant nothing with regards to who has the right to claim a legitimate successor.

Its a fancy sounding quote, but they invented what it meant to be Sith and it really didn't get them very far did it?

Maybe not, but it set the groundwork for everything your three exalted Sith Lords 'accomplished'.

You're whole argument is that Xoxaan's holocron is older so that must trump all, even though three other Sith Lords from three different eras thikn Krayt is a puke. Sorry if I don't buy it, but as you can see your argument doesn't really hold a lot of water, nor does it make the story any less crap.

My point has nothing to do with the age of the holocrons in question. It's more comparable to St. Peter coming forward today and trumping something said by Augustine, Martin Luther or Pope Benny. Who has more right to be correcting people, one of the original posse that helped found the religion, or future adherents with wildly differing philosophies and methods?

Someone "like him" but not him specifically. Anyone with a Force connection was wasn't feeling to good about themselves could have come across this holocron and been able to find out what was inside.

Already discussed this. XoXaan does indeed say "someone like you," but her holocron sat dormant within that tomb for nearly seven millenia without calling to anyone. Looking at the circumstances, it's so obvious to me that the thing was just randomly calling out Hett's name for all that time. No wonder nobody went to investigate it.

And your opinion is meaningless without evidence. Krayt's dominion is the result of an opportunistic coup during a period of civil war. Without the cooperation of particular factions in the Second Galactic Empire, he'd have nothing. You think you can just waltz in and murder people and you're the fucking king now? He needed the political support of the Imperial apparatus. Lord Sidious subverted the entire galaxy's power structure, and did it by TPM with none the wiser.

You realize, of course, that Krayt created the circumstances for that "opportunistic coup". And of course he needed the Second Galactic Empire, but he managed to play them in a way that would make old Palpykins smile. And of course he knew that one can't just "waltz in and murder people", but does he do that? Hardly; he manipulates, and he coerces, and he exhibits a knowledge of sentient flaws that seems altogether implausible for a Tusken, but whatever.

So what? First of all, any yahoo who is more powerful than the reigning Sith Master of the Order of the Sith Lords is not ipso facto a legitimate Sith. Its contrary to the very films. Jedi General Tan Anakin Skywalker did not become Sith Apprentice of the Order of the Sith Lords after he overpowered and killed Lord Darth Tyranus. He became the Sith Apprentice when he was, y'know, apprenticed to the Sith Master, Lord Darth Sidious. Nor did Padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi become a Sith Apprentice upon killing Darth Maul, nor did Luke Skywalker become Sith Master upon defeating Darth Sidious. Moreover, the founder of the very Order we are discussing was one of the Sith Lords joining in criticism of the "pretender" (their words). So arguing that by internal technicality of the Order of the Sith Lords, Krayt is de facto legitimate is absurd, as the authority on the matter, Darth Bane, makes it clear that he is not. Simply putting on the hat and prancing around, or even getting a following, or even being successful does not make legitimate. Hence the Pope example.

You have a remarkable talent for making completely irrelevant comparisons. The crux of the Krayt issue is that he has the power to back up his claim of being Dark Lord of the Sith, while none of your examples ever claim to be such under the circumstances you list. Despite all this, I'm glad you've declared Bane to be the sole authority on this; me, I don't see how Bane has any more right to declare 'legitimacy' than XoXaan.

Who gives a shit how they originally became a Sith.

Isn't that the entire point of this debate?

Need it spelled out anymore, dipshit? They are authorities on who is and is not a legitimate Sith, Krayt is not his own authority. Period.

And here I hoped you were going to link me to this very fine song. Thank you, though; I'm familiar with the definition of 'pretender', but again you forget that Krayt clearly has the backing of one Sith. I suppose the fact that she's much older, though, automatically disqualifies her from having any voice on the matter.

Yeah, except, I don't know, the Sith Lords themselves obviously disagree with you. In fact, they call him a pretender, and indisputable term in common usage for an illegitimate claimant to a throne occupied or abolished. So you obviously are just making up shit about Sith protocol and title in order to suit your argument. Dance around this all you want, but he is obviously less Sith than the prior incarnations, which are basically all represented and unanimously oppose his candidacy. Tough shit.

Same deal as above. Three hate him, one supports him, yadda yadda ya. This is getting absolutely nowhere.

Though, for my curiosity, how can you be "less Sith"? Is that something you can take a vitamin for?

Again, accomplishment and status does not make legitimacy. I have demonstrated this amply and with examples. Your reply is "nuh uh!" The Sith Lords obviously think pretensions to being a Sith are possible even if the position is vacant or the pretender defeated a Sith, so your assertion on Sith dogma is obviously wrong. Not only that, but we have it from the horse's mouth that Krayt's not a legitimate Sith. Get over it.

Nuh uh!

Seriously, we have it from three horses mouths--or whatever you call that hole Nihilus gargles from. Another horse fully supports Krayt as 'legitimate.' Get over it.

Furthermore, a quick check of Wookieepedia reveals that Hett stumbled upon it, and pumped it for information under the pretense of being a Sith Acolyte. So I suspect, especially from this last bit, that you're just stroking it to your comics and don't like anyone crapping on your wank parade. Well too bad.

Ah, the classic SD.net phrase. And, what, your devotion to the words of Bane is any less of a wank parade? Want me to scan the page in question? I assure you, your version is very different from what happens in the comic.

Oh, and XoXaan is one of the original exiles: a dark Jedi. Since I doubt the corpus of Sith knowledge and tradition and techniques was formed and syncreted between Sith magic and Jedi arts in under the first generation, I doubt whether her abilities and knowledge are mature vis-a-vis even the First Imperial Sith. Furthermore, she's lying because we know that the exiles and the First Sith Empire were preceded by the "True Sith" of KOTOR lore. This is equivalent to finding a book by a rabbi who helped found a community of first century Christianity, and claiming that it means you are Pope.

Pure speculation, on all counts. We know nothing about the "True Sith", we know nothing about what the first generation of Dark Jedi/Sith accomplished. As to your comparison, it's more like finding one of the twelve Apostles--or even one of their disciples--and them claiming to be such. You hold the first Sith in little regard; fine. But they're still Sith. Demeaning their knowledge or accomplishments doesn't change that.

This makes me smile:

who gives a shit what some realistic tapedeck thinks?

You do, obviously. As far as we know, all Sith holocrons are created equal, which make's your revered Bane's opinion about as relevant as my Pantera CD's. Either all of them matter, or none of them do. We've speculated that they're actual spirits, and not "the appearance and cognitive networks of the holocron's owner", as wookiepedia claims.

This is getting nowhere. It's purely a pissing contest at this point, ala whose holocron is bigger. You obviously place Bane at the forefront, which is fine. I think XoXaan has equal claim to be instructing someone she's chosen, and that the rule of the Sith fully supports said student declaring himself Dark Lord, provided he can back it up. Either it's rule by the strong, or formal transmission of title; we've seen both (Malak 'killing' Revan and usurping the 'throne' vs. Marka Ragnos conferring legitimacy on KJA's creation and Qel-Droma).

[Illuminatus Primus]

Fair point, but I thought accomplishments meant nothing with regards to who has the right to claim a legitimate successor.

Moving the goalposts, are we? You haven't been here very long to turn intellectually dishonest already. YOU bring up accomplishments, your opponents point out that even though it doesn't matter, these individuals are hardly "unaccomplished", so even if your argument was cogent (its not), it still would not be convincing. And that means we've conceded? It means no matter how you cut it you have no leg to stand on.

Maybe not, but it set the groundwork for everything your three exalted Sith Lords 'accomplished'.

And Abraham did the same for the Catholic Church. Does reading a lost book by him make me the Pope? Stop dodging the argument. You must demonstrate why simply origination makes for authority, and you must supply examples. Stop just giving us your say so.

My point has nothing to do with the age of the holocrons in question. It's more comparable to St. Peter coming forward today and trumping something said by Augustine, Martin Luther or Pope Benny. Who has more right to be correcting people, one of the original posse that helped found the religion, or future adherents with wildly differing philosophies and methods?

Except SHE is not THE founder, and the Sith Empire had not evolved yet. So she and the other exiles started interbreeding and whatnot with their new Sith hosts. Does not mean that the Sith Empire was mature or that she was the first Jen'ari. For all we know, this bitch was the equivalent of Saint Peter's maid. Face it, you don't know anything about her except "she goes really far back" and you like the Legacy comics so everything must be bent to service those preferences.

You realize, of course, that Krayt created the circumstances for that "opportunistic coup". And of course he needed the Second Galactic Empire, but he managed to play them in a way that would make old Palpykins smile. And of course he knew that one can't just "waltz in and murder people", but does he do that? Hardly; he manipulates, and he coerces, and he exhibits a knowledge of sentient flaws that seems altogether implausible for a Tusken, but whatever.

Really, its fucking dumb. How would the public or military ever support some dude just because he had some high-level contacts and conspirators in the Empire? Certainly its stupid he'd be publicly acknowledged, goofy YV wank armor and all, as Emperor and maintain credibility.

You have a remarkable talent for making completely irrelevant comparisons. The crux of the Krayt issue is that he has the power to back up his claim of being Dark Lord of the Sith, while none of your examples ever claim to be such under the circumstances you list. Despite all this, I'm glad you've declared Bane to be the sole authority on this; me, I don't see how Bane has any more right to declare 'legitimacy' than XoXaan.

Uh, Bane actually founded a legitimately accepted Sith Order which produced the greatest Sith Lord ever. Xoxaan was an exile belonging to an organization which was one of the ancient ancestors of the derived Sith Empire. As I said before, there is not a shred of evidence that her and her ilk had developed anything like the recognizable Sith religion yet, much less fully assimilated the Sith identity and magic in their first generation.

You can't just be a really talented dark Jedi, find a Sith Holocron, and then call yourself a Sith Lord and automatically become one. Why do you think they seek out Sith spirits so often, and why was it important at all for Kun and Qel-Droma to get their imprimatur?

The problem with your bullshit is that if Obi-Wan got a fondness for dark robes, some red and black tats, and started throwing lightning, you'd be prepared to say HE IS THE SUCCESSOR OF DARTH MAUL! Likewise for all my other examples. That is absurd. As I said before, the Sith are a specific society defined by specific doctrinal systems and if they don't accept you, you might be otherwise equivalent to the Sith, you might even be remembered as some conceptual descendant of the Sith, but you won't actually be among them.

Thank you, though; I'm familiar with the definition of 'pretender', but again you forget that Krayt clearly has the backing of one Sith. I suppose the fact that she's much older, though, automatically disqualifies her from having any voice on the matter.

No, its that the Sith Empire has not formed yet when she is claiming her status. Not to mention you don't know if she was the Jen'ari. Bane, Addendu, Nihilus were reigning Sith Lords. There were subordinate ones - the vast majority - in the Sith Empire. Was she a Jen'ari? You can't prove this, but we know for a fact the aforementioned had that level of Sith dignity.

Same deal as above. Three hate him, one supports him, yadda yadda ya. This is getting absolutely nowhere.

Though, for my curiosity, how can you be "less Sith"? Is that something you can take a vitamin for?

Have you ever read a history book? Do you understand the concept of heresy and schism? Its not very hard to understand how one could be a "de facto Sith" and fail to qualify as a legitimate member of the Order. Neo-Nazis are not the same thing as members of the NSDAP. And besides, three Jen'ari of the mature Sith have more clout than who-knows-what of the pre/proto-Sith.

Seriously, we have it from three horses mouths--or whatever you call that hole Nihilus gargles from. Another horse fully supports Krayt as 'legitimate.' Get over it.

Yeah, and those three were reigning Lords of the Sith, and you don't even know if your exile was a Sith Lord, much less if her and her compatriots resembled anything like the mature Sith religion.

Pure speculation, on all counts. We know nothing about the "True Sith", we know nothing about what the first generation of Dark Jedi/Sith accomplished. As to your comparison, it's more like finding one of the twelve Apostles--or even one of their disciples--and them claiming to be such. You hold the first Sith in little regard; fine. But they're still Sith. Demeaning their knowledge or accomplishments doesn't change that.

Actually, you're completely uncritically

This makes me smile:

You do, obviously. As far as we know, all Sith holocrons are created equal, which make's your revered Bane's opinion about as relevant as my Pantera CD's. Either all of them matter, or none of them do. We've speculated that they're actual spirits, and not "the appearance and cognitive networks of the holocron's owner", as wookiepedia claims.

How did Addendu fuck up Krayt. Did you just manage to delete that query last time? Anyway, you NEED your proto-Sith's endorsement for Krayt to be officially legitimate. The default assumption is he's a dark Jedi with a lot of Sith lore running around in the proverbial black cowl, y'know, pretensions. The default assumption is not that he's automatically legitimate. Otherwise the term legitimate has no meaning.

This is getting nowhere. It's purely a pissing contest at this point, ala whose holocron is bigger. You obviously place Bane at the forefront, which is fine. I think XoXaan has equal claim to be instructing someone she's chosen,

Except you're an idiot who can't differentiate from the claims of a proto-Sith of unknown rank, whose relationship to the mature Sith is unknowable, and you insist on comparing this to the verified qualifications of THREE Jen'ari of the mature Sith. Furthermore, my position is the null hypothesis, so you're the one desperately looking for acceptable of your Xoxaan shit.

and that the rule of the Sith fully supports said student declaring himself Dark Lord, provided he can back it up. Either it's rule by the strong, or formal transmission of title; we've seen both (Malak 'killing' Revan and usurping the 'throne' vs. Marka Ragnos conferring legitimacy on KJA's creation and Qel-Droma).

Except Malak was ALREADY PART OF THE LINE OF SUCCESSION. What do you think "Sith APPRENTICE" mean, dipshit?

[Desdinova]

Moving the goalposts, are we? You haven't been here very long to turn intellectually dishonest already. YOU bring up accomplishments, your opponents point out that even though it doesn't matter, these individuals are hardly "unaccomplished", so even if your argument was cogent (its not), it still would not be convincing. And that means we've conceded? It means no matter how you cut it you have no leg to stand on.

Look up 'sarcasm', please. It'll do you good.

And Abraham did the same for the Catholic Church. Does reading a lost book by him make me the Pope? Stop dodging the argument. You must demonstrate why simply origination makes for authority, and you must supply examples. Stop just giving us your say so.

All evidence mentioned in the comics and elsewhere points to XoXaan being a Sith Lord herself. Your personal poo-pooing of her credentials doesn't change that. And since you're utterly convinced that the only way to become a Sith is the garner the approval of a previous Sith, that makes her support for Krayt rather valid, wouldn't you say?

Except SHE is not THE founder, and the Sith Empire had not evolved yet. So she and the other exiles started interbreeding and whatnot with their new Sith hosts. Does not mean that the Sith Empire was mature or that she was the first Jen'ari. For all we know, this bitch was the equivalent of Saint Peter's maid. Face it, you don't know anything about her except "she goes really far back" and you like the Legacy comics so everything must be bent to service those preferences.

Right, I see. But Darth Andeddu was likely a very old Sith as well; does that mean that his views are immature and unevolved, as well?

Ah, bringing personal preference into it. Well, I certainly enjoy the comics, and I think this entire debate is asinine, but I could counter by saying that you don't like the Legacy comics, and so everything must be bent to service those preferences. Perhaps if you actually read them rather than going off what Wookiepedia says on the matter (although it, too, calls XoXaan a Sith Lord)...

Really, its fucking dumb. How would the public or military ever support some dude just because he had some high-level contacts and conspirators in the Empire? Certainly its stupid he'd be publicly acknowledged, goofy YV wank armor and all, as Emperor and maintain credibility.

Oh, I fully agree that the YV are a stupid concept and am annoyed by the fact that the Emperor looks like an organic Viking, but the fact of the matter is that, as far as we know, he does enjoy the support of the Galaxy at large.

Uh, Bane actually founded a legitimately accepted Sith Order which produced the greatest Sith Lord ever. Xoxaan was an exile belonging to an organization which was one of the ancient ancestors of the derived Sith Empire. As I said before, there is not a shred of evidence that her and her ilk had developed anything like the recognizable Sith religion yet, much less fully assimilated the Sith identity and magic in their first generation.

You can't just be a really talented dark Jedi, find a Sith Holocron, and then call yourself a Sith Lord and automatically become one. Why do you think they seek out Sith spirits so often, and why was it important at all for Kun and Qel-Droma to get their imprimatur?

The problem with your bullshit is that if Obi-Wan got a fondness for dark robes, some red and black tats, and started throwing lightning, you'd be prepared to say HE IS THE SUCCESSOR OF DARTH MAUL! Likewise for all my other examples. That is absurd. As I said before, the Sith are a specific society defined by specific doctrinal systems and if they don't accept you, you might be otherwise equivalent to the Sith, you might even be remembered as some conceptual descendant of the Sith, but you won't actually be among them.

Again, your own scorn for the early Sith does not mean that they aren't worthy of conferring legitimacy. And, frankly, it's quite fucking dumb to give Bane credit for producing "the greatest Sith Lord in history," when all he produced was a system that led to the complete absence of the Sith in galactic history for a thousand years. Palpatine's accomplishments are his own, not Bane's.

That tangent notwithstanding, my view on the matter is, again, rather different than the ludicrous example of Obi-Wan going all evil on us. The situation here, though, is radically different:

1) Krayt did not just off some Sith Lord and declare himself the new one; there were no Sith around.
2) Krayt does follow the doctrines and teachings of at least one Sith, as far as we know. If you want to discount her teachings, fine; as far as I'm concerned, they're valid.

Since this whole Bane thing has been bothering me, I went back and read the comic that, in your view, condemns Krayt as illegitimate. But the entire reason Bane is upset with him, and why he considers Krayt a 'pretender', does not seem to be centered around a question of some bullshit monarchical succession system, but purely around teachings.

Darth Bane: This was my lesson--two Sith should there be; no more. One holding power, one desiring it. You defy my teaching!
Darth Krayt: I have improved on it! Instead of two there is now only one--the Sith Order itself. I have recreated the Sith, Lord Bane, as you once did. I have given it purpose. For what use is power without one?
Darth Bane: Power is its own purpose. To share it is to dilute it.

As far as I can determine, this is the core of Bane's disapproval. It's not about legitimacy, it's about Krayt's refusal to tow the party line. A heresy? Perhaps, but one that's based on a Sith Order that predates Bane, Nihilus and Andeddu--or, so we are led to believe.

Darth Talon: [Krayt] created himself, then re-created the Sith Order under the guidence of XoXaan--an ancient Sith warrior--his first and greatest teacher.

No, its that the Sith Empire has not formed yet when she is claiming her status. Not to mention you don't know if she was the Jen'ari. Bane, Addendu, Nihilus were reigning Sith Lords. There were subordinate ones - the vast majority - in the Sith Empire. Was she a Jen'ari? You can't prove this, but we know for a fact the aforementioned had that level of Sith dignity.

Note that I've never claimed that XoXaan was the ruler of the Sith. There's too little known about her to make that assertion. But from the portrait presented in the comics, she does have every right to be instructing someone in the ways of the Sith, and therefore conferring legitimacy on one who would take up the title. Though, I admit, I'm amused at your view of "Sith dignity"; that seems to be the crux of your problem with this whole situation. You see it as some sort of idiotic nobility succession system, when, as far as we know, that hasn't been the case since the first Sith Empire. Who made Revan and Malak Sith Lords in the first place? Or Kreia? Or Ruin? As far as we know... they did. They took the title, learned the teachings and backed up their claim with their own power. Just as Krayt has done.

Have you ever read a history book? Do you understand the concept of heresy and schism? Its not very hard to understand how one could be a "de facto Sith" and fail to qualify as a legitimate member of the Order. Neo-Nazis are not the same thing as members of the NSDAP. And besides, three Jen'ari of the mature Sith have more clout than who-knows-what of the pre/proto-Sith.

The entire history of the Sith has been one heresy and schism after another. They have a nasty habit of dieing off, you see, or killing each other off. Look at the three Sith who have so much more clout than XoXaan. Andeddu, from (probably) the first Sith Empire, a monarchy that bears strikingly little resemblance to anything that followed; Nihilus, from the Trayus Academy brand of Sith, who, again, bears little similarity to the Sith of before (Kun and Qel-Droma) or the Sith after (eventually, Ruin's group); and Bane, whose Rule of Two flies in the face of nearly everything in the Sith's history. Would these three not be seen as heretical movements to one another? Would they not battle for supremacy if placed beside one another?

Yeah, and those three were reigning Lords of the Sith, and you don't even know if your exile was a Sith Lord, much less if her and her compatriots resembled anything like the mature Sith religion.

Just what is the 'mature' Sith religion? Darth Bane's idiotic hiding system? Is it what Nihilus practiced? Or Andeddu?

How did Addendu fuck up Krayt. Did you just manage to delete that query last time? Anyway, you NEED your proto-Sith's endorsement for Krayt to be officially legitimate. The default assumption is he's a dark Jedi with a lot of Sith lore running around in the proverbial black cowl, y'know, pretensions. The default assumption is not that he's automatically legitimate. Otherwise the term legitimate has no meaning.

You know, I've never once heard the term 'legitimate' in these comics. It seems to be purely a problem on the part of the fans. There is no 'official' with the Sith, not that we've seen.

Incidentally, I never said that I disagreed with the spirits-in-holocron view. But my point, if you'll kindly take your head out of your ass, was that all four holocrons work the same way. If they're spirits, then Krayt certainly has XoXaan's approval; if they're "glorified tape decks", then the scorn of the other three means absolutely nothing.

Except you're an idiot who can't differentiate from the claims of a proto-Sith of unknown rank, whose relationship to the mature Sith is unknowable, and you insist on comparing this to the verified qualifications of THREE Jen'ari of the mature Sith. Furthermore, my position is the null hypothesis, so you're the one desperately looking for acceptable of your Xoxaan shit.

Sticks and stones. I'm not desperately doing anything, here. You're the one getting red in the face over an imagined breach of some equally imagined Sith protocol. XoXaan has been stated to be a Sith Lord, and one of the first. You've simply decided that, because she was one of the first, she has no right to confer legitimacy.

Except Malak was ALREADY PART OF THE LINE OF SUCCESSION. What do you think "Sith APPRENTICE" mean, dipshit?

You're correct in that this is a bad application of a perfectly valid example. As I asked above, how exactly did he and Revan become part of the 'line of succession' in the first place? And if they declared themselves to be Sith, as all evidence suggests, then isn't Nihilus just as 'illegitimate' as you imagine Krayt to be?

[Darth Fanboy]

I asked Massacrus this before, where is this stated?

The Sith Triumvirate, as seen in KOTOR II, divided up what remained of the Sith Empire after Revan's departure. When Sion and nihlus betrayed Kreia, they took up a loose Alliance founded out of what remained of the Sith Empire. Because Nihilus' goal was to consume life and feed his hunger, he did not try and accumulate power in the same manner one would expect from a Sith Lord.

[Dark Flame]

Look up 'sarcasm', please. It'll do you good.

I don't like to butt into other peoples' discussions, but what kind of worthless little shit are you? How the fuck is anyone supposed to catch the sarcasm from your fucking text? I read through the whole damn argument, and that came off to me as genuine. If you're going to pull the " lolz sarcasm" bullshit, at least throw in a smiley or something before someone else interprets it as genuine.

[VT-16]

Did Revan ever gain approval from actual "Sith authorities"? It's only stated he found out about a "True Sith" faction somewhere in the Unknown Regions, and slowly adopted the Sith mantle, somehow.

I just don't see why a "legitimate" Sith Lord like him is any different from Krayt, who also found a member/information from another Sith faction, the one originating from Korriban.

[Havok]

None of the Sith Lords that started new traditions have approval from earlier Lords from different schools of thought on how to maintain or run the Sith, because, SURPRISE, the new guy isn't doing it their way.

So far none of them have panned out. Lots of Sith. Two Sith. Some Sith. Sith worlds. Sith armies. They have all been defeated or destroyed, either from without or within. The school that seemed to be the most effective was Bane's, but once they came out of the shadows, that Order was dead in 25 years.

[FTeik]

Darth Bane was a heretic to the Sith of the Brotherhood of Darkness and like Krayt most of his teachings and doctrine were from an old holocron (the holocron of a Sith-Lord, where we don't know if he had the blessings of some of his predecessor-Sith, too).

The gatekeeper of the DU-holocron turned Krayt into a were-something, but was this a real transformation or just an hallucination put into Krayt's mind? If it was a hallucination lets keep in mind, that XoXaan's holocron was also more than a talking and teaching box in the way, that it either altered time or Krayt's perception of it (when he left the catacombs Palpatine and Vader were long dead).

XoXaan was buried in the Valley of the Dark Lords. IIRC, this honor was reserved for the most powerful of the Sith-Lords, so she must have had some status.

[Battlehymn Republic]

Bah, I for one think that it's time the EU got some new premiere evil Force organization to challenge the Sith. The Prophets of the Dark Side seemed to be on the right track; they looked like they were more interested in serving the will of the Dark Side and stargazing/star-wearing than they were at amassing raw power and trying to impose their order upon the Galaxy.

[Sidewinder]

All this controversy regarding XoXaan has me wondering:

Why didn't the people in charge of 'Star Wars Legacy' have A'Sharad Hett find Revan's holocron instead of making up some supposed Sith Lord with NO known accomplishments other than being "one of the first"?