Speed Cameras = Safety Mechanism or Money Making Machine?

[Broomstick]

The average highway speed limit in the great state of Indiana?
-50 miles per hour with some highways being 60-65 miles per hour in some areas.

Why is that? What great traffic dangers are on Indiana highways?

1) Wandering cows. I shit you not - I've been on several trips requiring me to drive the length of Indiana from north to south and there are significant amounts of large roadkill comprised of both the ubiquitous deer and large farm animals

2) Amish people driving horse and buggies. They are not seen on the Interstate (non-motorized vehicles forbidden) but they are seen on the rural roads outside of the Interstates.

Also, the interstate speed limit has been raised to 65-70 in my area. However, it is not unusual for I-94 traffic to be much slower than that from Gary westward due to backups going into the city of Chicago.

[Tribun]

If I were tasked with setting up a camera-based speed reduction plan, I'd probably set up a shitload of mockup stations all over the city, and rotate the real cameras around randomly. You'd see cameras everywhere, but you'd never know which ones are real and which ones are decoys.

Actually, here that practise is in use in a way. Only 1/2 of the speed cameras actually are active (meaning there is a camera in the box, otherwise it's empty). HOWEVER, you have no idea which one right now IS "armed", so you can never know if that damn thing is waiting to flash you, or if right now it isn't in use. This might have come from the fact that the cities couldn't afford so many cameras, but it has developed into a tactic so that even locals couldn't be sure if that camera is now active or not.

[Androsphinx]

If you have a GPS system in the car (and they're pretty cheap these days), in many places you can get a patch which will let you know about cameras in advance, giving you time to slow and avoid being photographed.

Hence the average speed cameras.

Devious! Hope they don't catch on over here...

[tim31]

One topic guarenteed to start a shitfight is speed cameras, and this thread is no exception. As a young driver I thought they were just cash cows. I wasn't wrong, the revenues these things generate are staggering, but now I believe we need one outside every school in the country if it'll help to slow people the fuck down(which obviously it doesn't, because the money's still rolling in).

However, I put this to people: research has been done into eventually issuing speeding infringements based on telemetry from a mandatory vehicle transponder, making it impossible to excess the speed limit without consequence. Is that going to far?

If I were tasked with setting up a camera-based speed reduction plan, I'd probably set up a shitload of mockup stations all over the city, and rotate the real cameras around randomly. You'd see cameras everywhere, but you'd never know which ones are real and which ones are decoys.

Apparently on motorways in China they do that, but with actual police officers. They rotate real police with mannequins.

[Glocksman]

So ticketee pleasure is more important than statistically proven improved road safety and the freeing of police human reserve to occupy with other things, like more serious lawbreaking? Please tell me you didn't mean to say that.

No, what I am saying is that the judge recognized that speeding by such a small amount was most likely unintentional* and wasn't deserving of punishment.

The cops I know say they generally give you a 5 MPH leeway before taking notice and either issuing a warning (no fine and no points on license) or a ticket because they're aware that not all car speedometers are 100% accurate.

But as others have noted the exception is in school zones, where they will bust you if you exceed the 20 limit when kids are present.




*According to those police 'this is your speed' automated radar devices that display your speed as you drive by, my car's speedometer is off by 5 MPH, as the display says I'm doing 30 while my speedometer says 35.

[Glocksman]

The average highway speed limit in the great state of Indiana?
-50 miles per hour with some highways being 60-65 miles per hour in some areas.

Why is that? What great traffic dangers are on Indiana highways?

1) Wandering cows. I shit you not - I've been on several trips requiring me to drive the length of Indiana from north to south and there are significant amounts of large roadkill comprised of both the ubiquitous deer and large farm animals

2) Amish people driving horse and buggies. They are not seen on the Interstate (non-motorized vehicles forbidden) but they are seen on the rural roads outside of the Interstates.

Also, the interstate speed limit has been raised to 65-70 in my area. However, it is not unusual for I-94 traffic to be much slower than that from Gary westward due to backups going into the city of Chicago.

I don't know much about north of Indy, but down here the speed limit on US 41 through town is 40 MPH.
It's that low because there are a shitload of stoplights on the highway through town.
The stoplights exist because when the Federal government upgraded 41, the local government persuaded them to not build overpasses at each intersection and make it a limited access highway because 'people won't stop and shop in town' if there weren't any stoplights.

Hence Evansville's notoriety as 'Stoplight City' among truckers.

[Superman]

Why is there always a bunch of people who speak out and rally against any kind of fucking government enforcement? There's really no argument against the damn cameras that holds any water, yet some continue to scream out against them.

Just don't fucking speed or run red lights! It really is that simple. Goddamn.

[FSTargetDrone]

The cops I know say they generally give you a 5 MPH leeway before taking notice and either issuing a warning (no fine and no points on license) or a ticket because they're aware that not all car speedometers are 100% accurate.

I've compared my handheld GPS receiver to my car's speedometer and the car shows me travelling about 5 or 6 mph faster than the GPS shows. I've used the same GPS receiver in 2 other cars and their gauges are closer to the GPS than my car is. I've also used 2 different GPS receivers in the same car and they were within 1mph or so of each other.

[Soontir C'boath]

Electronic speedometers measure the revolutions of the vehicle's tires and it's diameter must be correct (the tire model must be the same as was originally issued to the vehicle) or it will read the speed wrong.

[Big Phil]

They don't modify behavior? You're telling me that after someone receives a speeding ticket due to a speed camera that they won't be driving down the road thinking "Man, there might be a speed camera around I better slow down"?

Oops... delete above post, please...

Real text goes here:
Most people I know hit the breaks immediately after getting flashed, but then continue in normal speeds soon afterwards.
For educational purposes, they are useless in my opinion. I know no one in my circle of friends who said "Hm, I am driving slower now that I have been fined." People here see it as, well, a annoying but normal thing to be fined.

Bullshit - I used to speed all the time. Now, I stick pretty close to the speed limit (5 MPH over maximum) unless I'm going with the flow of traffic and they're going a lot faster. Why? Saving a couple of minutes on my commute isn't worth the hassle of getting stopped, getting a ticket, and having my insurance rates go up.

For that matter, if speed limits, speed cameras, and fines have no effect on behavior, why wouldn't everyone drive at whatever speed they choose? Little old ladies should be driving down the highway at 25 MPH while 20 year olds in ricers should be flying by at 120 MPH; you don't generally see that though. Most people drive the speed limit +/- 10 MPH

[tim31]

Why is there always a bunch of people who speak out and rally against any kind of fucking government enforcement? There's really no argument against the damn cameras that holds any water, yet some continue to scream out against them.

It's always about people feeling oppressed as a group. As much as I love Top Gear, Jeremy Clarkson uses his celebrity as a 'champion of the people' complaining about speed cameras, road taxes and such, when he really should just stick to making safety ads about why you shouldn't straddle level crossings.

[Dahak]

Bullshit - I used to speed all the time. Now, I stick pretty close to the speed limit (5 MPH over maximum) unless I'm going with the flow of traffic and they're going a lot faster. Why? Saving a couple of minutes on my commute isn't worth the hassle of getting stopped, getting a ticket, and having my insurance rates go up.

For that matter, if speed limits, speed cameras, and fines have no effect on behavior, why wouldn't everyone drive at whatever speed they choose? Little old ladies should be driving down the highway at 25 MPH while 20 year olds in ricers should be flying by at 120 MPH; you don't generally see that though. Most people drive the speed limit +/- 10 MPH

It is different here, I would say.
For one, unless you're really fast, speeding is dirt-cheap. And you get only stopped if you are filmed by a mobile Video-car, in all other cases you just get a nice letter from the state. And there's no insurance-rate influence here, either. Only thing that is a bit of trouble is the points that get registered if you're caught speeding with more than 21km/h to fast.

The only thing it achieves is to keep most people to stick to 20km/h more than the speed limit. Should you get a ticket within this, no one cares for above reasons. You have to be at least 31 km/h (19mph) to even get a suspended driver's licence (for one month).
What would keep more people "in line" are far stiffer penalties than the current ones and a much higher probability of being caught. After twelve years of driving now, I have never been fined and not because I drive at the speed limit (which is a nerve-wrecking exercise, anyway. It's something a lot of people would like to shove you off the road...).

And for the record, no one is allowed to drive slower than 80km/h (50mph) on a motorway here, anyway (unless of course it's a traffic jam). And 120 miles an hour is nothing outrageously special, either.

[andrewgpaul]

If you have a GPS system in the car (and they're pretty cheap these days), in many places you can get a patch which will let you know about cameras in advance, giving you time to slow and avoid being photographed.

Hence the average speed cameras.

Devious! Hope they don't catch on over here...

Given that Keevan talked about 'motorways', I think they already have

[Broomstick]

However, I put this to people: research has been done into eventually issuing speeding infringements based on telemetry from a mandatory vehicle transponder, making it impossible to excess the speed limit without consequence. Is that going to far?

Possibly.

Although rare, it is possible to be in a situation where your best option to avoid an accident is to speed up. Now in such situations the prudent driver would be seen as going a steady speed, abruptly accelerating, then dropping back down to legal again in a short interval as opposed to a steady exceeding of the legal limits. If there are allowances for such circumstances my major objection would be gone, but I'm concerned that the application would be extremely knee-jerk and unforgiving initially.

[Darth Wong]

However, I put this to people: research has been done into eventually issuing speeding infringements based on telemetry from a mandatory vehicle transponder, making it impossible to excess the speed limit without consequence. Is that going to far?

Possibly.

Although rare, it is possible to be in a situation where your best option to avoid an accident is to speed up. Now in such situations the prudent driver would be seen as going a steady speed, abruptly accelerating, then dropping back down to legal again in a short interval as opposed to a steady exceeding of the legal limits. If there are allowances for such circumstances my major objection would be gone, but I'm concerned that the application would be extremely knee-jerk and unforgiving initially.

It's not rare at all. If you're behind someone who's moving at below the speed limit on a two-lane highway and you move into the left lane to pass, it's better for everyone if you do it quickly, so you can get back into the right-hand lane as soon as possible.

[tim31]

I've heard anecdotal evidence that the law regarding overtaking in New South Wales is that you can floor it to clear another vehicle, especially road trains, but you have to have slowed back down to the limit by the time you return to your lane. I'll have to have a dig through the NSW traffic code to see if I can confirm that one.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Wow, got a few whiners here who are pissed they got caught breaking the law. Alright, a few quick responses then:

To those who complain that speed-traps and cameras are nothing more than revenue-generators: Protip- If you DON'T SPEED, you won't get caught and ticketed, and thus no money will get sent to these revenue-generators.

Holy shit! What was city-hall thinking? A revenue generator that stops working when people actually follow the law?!

To those who complain that these laws are more for revenue than they are for public safety: Tough goddamn cookies. If the law actually proved to be an infringement on your rights and needs, fine, I'd be just as much against it as the next person. Unfortunately, it isn't. The entire argument is one of convenience: "I can't go as fast as I want to!" Guess what? That driver's license you have? Yeah, that was issued by the government. Your entire right to drive is there because of the government, and if you don't play by their rules, they can take it away. Don't like it? Too fucking bad, use a bike then.

To those who complain about pedestrians being hazards (I'm looking at you, Shep): If... you... don't... want... to... hit... them... drive... slower. It doesn't matter if they're stupidly wandering out into the street without looking. *You're* the one cruising around in a one-ton hunk of metal and plastic, it is *your* responsibility to take idiots into account.

To those complaining that they see cops speeding all the time too: Cry me a fucking river. Tu qouque does not a valid argument make.

[Rye]

The UK is a veritable nest of anti-speed camera folks. I do wonder how many people truly believe the argument "It makes it less safe, because I'm always checking I'm doing the speed limit and not concentrating on the road".

That's generally true, to an extent. If you're concentrating on your speedometer significantly more, you're more likely to miss something important in your peripheral vision. To use an appropriate analogy; which Stig is more likely to crash on the Top Gear course, Stig 1 who is burning around it in a Veyron, or Stig 2, burning around it in a Veyron but checking the speedometer all the time?

The fact is, on British roads outside of city centres in normal conditions, outside of rush hours, traffic usually comfortably runs along 5mph or so over the speed limit, slowing down for speed cameras, learner drivers, police cars and the odd OAP who really shouldn't be driving. On the roads I know, I usually try to judge the distance so I can stop accelerating and slide down to the speed limit without braking, pass through then resume normal traffic speed. Roads I don't know I generally adhere to the speed limit, in crappy conditions a couple of mph below.

I would note I don't have a problem with them in accident-prone areas, people really should slow down in those, and you can have people out at all times in cities. I think I would prefer if outside of those areas, especially at low volume times, their sensitivity could correspond to the road conditions. For instance, Chorley New Road at 11 PM is almost entirely empty, well lit, double lanes and travelling at 45 mph along it (even the 30mph zone outside Bolton School) is really not going to put anyone at risk.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

I have a hell of a hard time believing the 'Checking my speed distracts me from the road' argument.

It's been a few years since Driver's Ed, but I do remember a few important things related to this. The first is what I think was called 'Velocitization'. It most often occured in high-speed zones such as interstates and the like, but could also occur in slower areas. Basically if you concentrate solely on the road, you begin to enter an almost trance-like state and lose track of how fast you're actually going.

One of the biggest things stressed in Driver's Ed was that you *should* be checking your mirrors, your speedometer, things not directly on the road, every couple of seconds or so, because those interruptions actually stop you from entering the trance-like state of highway-hypnosis and sort of 'refresh' your alertness.

To those who claim that the time it takes them to take a glance at the speedometer is a dangerous distraction... why the hell are you even on the road? Someone whose skills and concentration-ability is that pathetically low should *not* be trusted in a car.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Ah hell, unintentional +1 post...

...there are exceptions to the above. If you're in an area where constant attention on the immediate road is needed, then yeah, glancing at the speedometer can be a deadly distraction. This would be things like really bad weather, lots of people in the streets (Driving in Chicago during a Cubs game or when the bars let out spring to mind, I've done both). But in these cases, the environmental circumstances dictate that you should be driving *well* below the speed limit anyways, thus rendering that argument invalid.

[Rye]

I have a hell of a hard time believing the 'Checking my speed distracts me from the road' argument.

It's been a few years since Driver's Ed, but I do remember a few important things related to this. The first is what I think was called 'Velocitization'. It most often occured in high-speed zones such as interstates and the like, but could also occur in slower areas. Basically if you concentrate solely on the road, you begin to enter an almost trance-like state and lose track of how fast you're actually going.

One of the biggest things stressed in Driver's Ed was that you *should* be checking your mirrors, your speedometer, things not directly on the road, every couple of seconds or so, because those interruptions actually stop you from entering the trance-like state of highway-hypnosis and sort of 'refresh' your alertness.

Absolutely.

To those who claim that the time it takes them to take a glance at the speedometer is a dangerous distraction... why the hell are you even on the road? Someone whose skills and concentration-ability is that pathetically low should *not* be trusted in a car.

It's unlikely to be just a glance, it'll be repeated preoccupied glances to make sure you're decelerating enough to be at 30 in the distance in front of you or you will have to pay some money/get points on your license/etc.

[aerius]

To those who claim that the time it takes them to take a glance at the speedometer is a dangerous distraction... why the hell are you even on the road? Someone whose skills and concentration-ability is that pathetically low should *not* be trusted in a car.

Bingo. If checking the speedometer every 10 seconds significantly detracts from someone's driving ability, the incompetant dickwad doesn't deserve a fucking license. We're talking about driving on public roads where you're using maybe 10-25% of the car's performance capabilities at the very most, it's not anything close to high-performance driving on a closed circuit racetrack. It does not require some kind of super-human concentration. If you don't have the ability to check the gauges without impacting your driving, you should have your license ripped up and get sent back to driver's ed until you can.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Hence the average speed cameras.

Devious! Hope they don't catch on over here...

Given that Keevan talked about 'motorways', I think they already have

Given I mentioned the exact same things and live in the same damn county as Andro, you bet your arse they have.

[aerius]

It's unlikely to be just a glance, it'll be repeated preoccupied glances to make sure you're decelerating enough to be at 30 in the distance in front of you or you will have to pay some money/get points on your license/etc.

Take away their driver's licenses until they learn how to fucking drive. It's not that hard to judge speed & distance, and if the person needs to keep looking down at his speedometer to know how fast he's going, he doesn't deserve a fucking license.

[The Yosemite Bear]

you know the local cops here don't use cameras but they do have a radar gun hooked to an electric billboard...

no the only speed trap I really hate in Yosemite is the 25mph limit that kicks in half way through the tunnel on highway 41, comming back into the valley...

ok, you have a steep straight grade, where the the run off spills across the roadway, turning into ice in the darkness...

If you don't decllerate and ride the break lightly the whole length of the tunnel, you will loose control if you try breaking where the speed limit actually changes. Worse there's a blind turn right after the 25 zone where the speed limit is arpitraillly raised to 35.

yes, that's right they posted a speed limit sign half way through a tunnel where obeying it is dangerous, and there's an alcove where police like to hide right next to the "river" where the water drains down the air vents and across the road.

To be exact the speed limit is 35 at the entrances of the tunnel, and 25 at the center of the tunnel, however during the winter the down hill grade, along with the ice, especially the exit, will result in your car sliding and acclerating comming out of the tunnel. (at which point the speed limit is 35 again and most tourists who have hit the black Ice are doing about 50), and you have exactly three carlengths to perform each of two 90* turns or hit a wall of masonry.

so it's safe for those of us who live here and drive slow...

unless there's a speeding tourist looing control and threatening to punch your ticket....