Speed Cameras = Safety Mechanism or Money Making Machine?

[CmdrWilkens]

To: CmdrWilkens:

Red-herring. All of those arguments would apply 100% if you had state troopers patrolling those roads instead of speed cameras. Therefore, they are totally inapplicable to an argument about speed cameras in particular.

I don't oppose speed cameras and perhaps I didn't make that clear. I oppose the process by which speed limits are set. I think that given the general usefulness of red light cameras in stopping dangerous driving behavior (my home town was one of the earliest and most heavily adopting cities) speed cameras are the next logical step. my problem is that what the speed cameras are catching may not be unsafe. It certianly is currently illegal but it is not, automatically, unsafe. I think the reason why I willingly let troopers judge whether to cite speeders is that is gives rreign to whether the speed travelled is not just illegal but unsafe and I am far more concerned about preventing unsafe behavior.

[The Yosemite Bear]

note as to my complaints about the speed limits in Yosemite.

I think the whole area leading up to the tunnel and through the tunnel should be a 25mph zone!

going down hill you litterially have to ride the break but do so softly so as not to slide. then you get the idiots who can't read signs PASSING you going twice what the speed limit will be in 1 mile.

[Darth Wong]

I have a hell of a hard time believing the 'Checking my speed distracts me from the road' argument.

It's been a few years since Driver's Ed, but I do remember a few important things related to this. The first is what I think was called 'Velocitization'. It most often occured in high-speed zones such as interstates and the like, but could also occur in slower areas. Basically if you concentrate solely on the road, you begin to enter an almost trance-like state and lose track of how fast you're actually going.

One of the biggest things stressed in Driver's Ed was that you *should* be checking your mirrors, your speedometer, things not directly on the road, every couple of seconds or so, because those interruptions actually stop you from entering the trance-like state of highway-hypnosis and sort of 'refresh' your alertness.

Absolutely.

To those who claim that the time it takes them to take a glance at the speedometer is a dangerous distraction... why the hell are you even on the road? Someone whose skills and concentration-ability is that pathetically low should *not* be trusted in a car.

It's unlikely to be just a glance, it'll be repeated preoccupied glances to make sure you're decelerating enough to be at 30 in the distance in front of you or you will have to pay some money/get points on your license/etc.

Yeah, it's not as if every car made in the last 20 years has cruise control or anything. Oh wait a minute ... they do.

[Flagg]

Mine doesn't...

[Darth Wong]

Mine doesn't...

What the fuck kind of car do you drive? My old 1986 Mercury had cruise control.

[Ubiquitous]

I have a hell of a hard time believing the 'Checking my speed distracts me from the road' argument.

It's been a few years since Driver's Ed, but I do remember a few important things related to this. The first is what I think was called 'Velocitization'. It most often occured in high-speed zones such as interstates and the like, but could also occur in slower areas. Basically if you concentrate solely on the road, you begin to enter an almost trance-like state and lose track of how fast you're actually going.

One of the biggest things stressed in Driver's Ed was that you *should* be checking your mirrors, your speedometer, things not directly on the road, every couple of seconds or so, because those interruptions actually stop you from entering the trance-like state of highway-hypnosis and sort of 'refresh' your alertness.

Absolutely.

To those who claim that the time it takes them to take a glance at the speedometer is a dangerous distraction... why the hell are you even on the road? Someone whose skills and concentration-ability is that pathetically low should *not* be trusted in a car.

It's unlikely to be just a glance, it'll be repeated preoccupied glances to make sure you're decelerating enough to be at 30 in the distance in front of you or you will have to pay some money/get points on your license/etc.

Yeah, it's not as if every car made in the last 20 years has cruise control or anything. Oh wait a minute ... they do.

Are you being sarcastic? The only person I know who has cruise control is my brother in law who has a very expensive X5. Everyone else, no.

[The Yosemite Bear]

my 94 geo didn't, nor did my 92 subaru 4wd, now my 87 volvo has that, air bags, and a tank body...

now to figure out how to mount a turret over the sunroof....

[Dahak]

Mine doesn't...

What the fuck kind of car do you drive? My old 1986 Mercury had cruise control.

A lot of cars in Germany don't have it, for instance. Normally, they cost extra or are in some add-on package.
I guess when you don't have such long, long distances in straight, predicatable roads to travel as in the USA or Canada, its appeal decreases rapidly.

[Darth Wong]

Are you being sarcastic? The only person I know who has cruise control is my brother in law who has a very expensive X5. Everyone else, no.

Maybe it's a North American thing. Every car I ever see in any dealership around here has cruise control.

In any case, the idea that someone can't simultaneously see his dashboard and safely guide his vehicle is pretty terrifying. I have to wonder if these guys are also incapable of chewing gum and walking at the same time.

[Superman]

Actually, my '97 Merc Tracer doesn't have cruise control. Some of them do as an option, I think, but mine doesn't. My Charger, however, does, and it's fucking beautiful...

[The Yosemite Bear]

bah! the charger is a vehicle of rebels and heretics, for Steve McQueen shows you must drive some racing car, the Mustang will beat the charger...

[Darth Wong]

(sigh) Obviously, I'm out of touch with the low-end automobile market.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

(sigh) Obviously, I'm out of touch with the low-end automobile market.

Yeah, seriously, every single vehicle I've ever driven (excluding rental cars, I can't remember about those) has had cruise control, with the exception of one from 1977. The '86, '89, '96, '97, '03, and '06 cars all certainly had it.

That said, there are some areas where the speed limit IS excessively low. For example, divided highways in extremely rural areas. There's no reason why you can't drive 90mph on the 90/94 in eastern Montana. That's really the only example I can think of. The police back there, when there was briefly no speed limit in the 1990's, ticketed people who were going faster than 90mph for reckless driving. The legislature responded to the courts saying that was illegal with no speed limit by instituting a speed limit of... 75mph. Why didn't they just go with the state police's own evaluation and set the limit at 90mph?

Certainly there are stretches of road in Texas where the speed limit is going up to 80mph now and possibly 85. And there are certainly, unquestionably, many areas of roads both in the USA and Canada which could handle speeds up to 90mph, because they're flat, well-built, and even during their busiest moments have fewer cars on them than urban freeways do at 2 AM on Monday night.

Also, since at least in Washington State they don't enforce until you're going five over the limit because of the fact that speedometers are so imprecise it's possible to have that much error (+/-4mph), speed cameras set to active before that range should be illegal. It's not like that would tempt a person into going over: What if your speedometers errs on the low side? Driving "62mph" in a 60 zone means you get 4 tickets in one day.

[Flagg]

Mine doesn't...

What the fuck kind of car do you drive? My old 1986 Mercury had cruise control.

2004 Saturn Ion. But it's the base model with no features. Because I'm cheap.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Mine doesn't...

What the fuck kind of car do you drive? My old 1986 Mercury had cruise control.

2004 Saturn Ion. But it's the base model with no features. Because I'm cheap.

2004 Nissan Frontier, bog-standard base model. No cruise control either, but the thing's otherwise a tank that sips its gas.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Many speed cameras are set to ticket anyone as little as 3mph over the speed limit. This is a blatent revenue generation trick, and not a genuine safety measure or even a reasonable enforcement of the law. I know I can't tell the difference between 35 and 38 mph, even with the spedometer some times. And you can't look at the spedo all the time either. Setting them up at the bottoms of hills and such is even more trap-ish. Yeah, the only way to cheat the camera is to be driving so fast that you fly past it at over 150 mph. It's a bit unfair when you look at it like that.

I'm sure this has happened, but I'm also sure that these departments quickly discovered that they lose those tickets, and it makes them look bad in the public eye.

You also have to remember that it would be easier to fight a camera on something as trivial as 3mph when the officer is not an actual person.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Real text goes here:
Most people I know hit the breaks immediately after getting flashed, but then continue in normal speeds soon afterwards.
For educational purposes, they are useless in my opinion. I know no one in my circle of friends who said "Hm, I am driving slower now that I have been fined." People here see it as, well, a annoying but normal thing to be fined.

I'll try and find a study that I read, but it basically concluded that after being pulled over and cited a person will drive better for about a month before returning to their bad habits. Though if they get cited enough long term change is seen.

Again, I'll see if I can find it.

[aerius]

In any case, the idea that someone can't simultaneously see his dashboard and safely guide his vehicle is pretty terrifying. I have to wonder if these guys are also incapable of chewing gum and walking at the same time.

Well, we see shining examples of these incompetants on Canada's Worst Drivers every year. That program is a horror show of scary drivers.

[Kamakazie Sith]

So ticketee pleasure is more important than statistically proven improved road safety and the freeing of police human reserve to occupy with other things, like more serious lawbreaking? Please tell me you didn't mean to say that.

No, what I am saying is that the judge recognized that speeding by such a small amount was most likely unintentional* and wasn't deserving of punishment.

He probably did it because the instrument was off, and not necessarily whether the mental state was present. In Utah traffic citations are strict liability thus no mental state is required to be cited.

[Aaron]

Well, we see shining examples of these incompetants on Canada's Worst Drivers every year. That program is a horror show of scary drivers.

That is possibly the scariest show I've ever seen. Good argument for manditory drivers ed, and I don't mean the shitty one that civvies get. I'm talking about using the one the Army does.

BTW, who "won" this year? Missed the last episode.

[The Yosemite Bear]

reminds me about how while I am a safe driver, a recent power flux resulted in a few blown fuses. Or more particularly the one that illuminates my dash instruments. I keep bitching about it since Volvo made the fuse box so damn hard to get too. Why don't you just drive someone says, you know what speed your going?

BECAUSE I NEED TO SEE THE DASHBOARD INSTRUMENTS TO DRIVE!

[aerius]

That is possibly the scariest show I've ever seen. Good argument for manditory drivers ed, and I don't mean the shitty one that civvies get. I'm talking about using the one the Army does.

BTW, who "won" this year? Missed the last episode.

Jason won it cleanly, he stopped dead while trying to merge onto Highway 400 and pretty much went "what the hell do I do now?" He got totally lost and ended up close to Sudbury, and he had to be guided all the way back to Barrie. I have absolutely no idea how he got a license in the first place.

[Rye]

I don't think we've ever owned a car with cruise control, and we've had a lot, though they've mostly been European; BMWs, Mercs, Fiats.

At any rate, the point wasn't that people are unable to check their speedometer and pay attention to the road, just that many speed cameras add an unneccessary contrivance that will divert your attention for a moment.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Strangely enough every car I've owned (an 87 Dodge Caravan and a 94 Dodge Spirit) have had cruise-control. The only time I've gone without it were a few times I was driving a friend's car. For some reason a lot of my friends often ask me to drive if we're going somewhere together. Something about feeling safer or something.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

At any rate, the point wasn't that people are unable to check their speedometer and pay attention to the road, just that many speed cameras add an unneccessary contrivance that will divert your attention for a moment.

If they are going the posted speed limit, how is a speed-camera going to divert their attention?