Sweden denies Mogadishu conflict

[Axis Kast]

Oh come off your bullshit high horse. It's not just those experiences; the crime rates in areas of Somali settlement around the city are statistical evidence of the problem, and if I said the same thing about refugees from a shitty Detroit slum, no one would have a problem with it. And yet, a Detroit slum is nowhere near as horrible an environment as Somalia, is it?

That's like saying I can learn everything there is to know about Russians everywhere by spending time in Brighton Beach.

I can learn some of the culture. The language. The practices. I cannot learn about Russians on the West Coast. Russians in Canada. I cannot learn about Russians in affluent areas. Russians in rural areas. There is a degree of peculiarity involved with any community. And anyway, the vehemence of your position makes me doubt your objectivity.

Gays aren't a race, either. If I proclaimed that, after several run-ins with pushy, lazy, incompetent gays in San Francisco, that all gays everywhere were worthless, that wouldn't be acceptable - particularly on this board. Think about it. My point is that there is a double standard here, in the absence of somebody to "speak for" Somalis.

And let me remind you, too, that refugee communities may include people who spent a long while out of Somalia even before arriving at their "final" destination, as well as people who were born in Canada but socialized in primarily Somali environments.

[Mange]

Sweden has a generous asylum system (we have for example accepted more Iraqis than the US and Canada combined and more than the rest of the EU) and there is now an enormous strain on for example housing and social services. While I'm all for a generous system, I can understand that the Swedish authorities have become more restrictive.

[Anguirus]

Stop strawmanning, Kast. Wong never said "all Somalis are trash," nor that he knew everything about Somalis--he said that in general the ones in his area acted reprehensibly and produced plenty of evidence to back up his point.

[Darth Wong]

Oh come off your bullshit high horse. It's not just those experiences; the crime rates in areas of Somali settlement around the city are statistical evidence of the problem, and if I said the same thing about refugees from a shitty Detroit slum, no one would have a problem with it. And yet, a Detroit slum is nowhere near as horrible an environment as Somalia, is it?

That's like saying I can learn everything there is to know about Russians everywhere by spending time in Brighton Beach.

I can learn some of the culture. The language. The practices. I cannot learn about Russians on the West Coast. Russians in Canada. I cannot learn about Russians in affluent areas. Russians in rural areas. There is a degree of peculiarity involved with any community. And anyway, the vehemence of your position makes me doubt your objectivity.

Gays aren't a race, either. If I proclaimed that, after several run-ins with pushy, lazy, incompetent gays in San Francisco, that all gays everywhere were worthless, that wouldn't be acceptable - particularly on this board. Think about it. My point is that there is a double standard here, in the absence of somebody to "speak for" Somalis.

And let me remind you, too, that refugee communities may include people who spent a long while out of Somalia even before arriving at their "final" destination, as well as people who were born in Canada but socialized in primarily Somali environments.

You're a fucking shithead and a liar, Kast. I never said that 100% of Somalis act like this, or even that 100% of the refugees in my area act like this. What I said was that as a group, the refugees' behaviour is shitty enough that I can totally understand why people are hostile toward them. But I guess that's not easy enough for you to attack, so you had to exaggerate it into "100% of Somalis in the world are bad".

[Edi]

We've had Somalis for 15 years here and they are only now starting to integrate better. But there's still a number of problems with them sometimes. Fortunately the leaders of the Somali community have been very active in trying to set things straight and solve problems, otherwise the situation would be complete shit.

Unfortunately, I cant second your opinion when it comes to Tampere. The situation for most parts regarding Somali's IS complete shit around here, having witnessed incidents much like Darth Wong is describing.

I suppose the problems have been addressed better in Helsinki, but they are far from completely gone.

The worst shit calmed down some several years ago when groups of Somali adults actually took to patrolling the central railway station area and other trouble spots and straightening out their own who were causing the biggest problems. But there are still problems in the suburbs where there are lots of Somalis.

[Lagmonster]

Mike absolutely right; the Somalis in Ottawa, for example, occupy two flavours - tribal-warring assholes and shell-shocked academic types who managed to get out of the country early and, frankly, hate their asshole brethren as much as anyone else.

Here in Ottawa they have actual 'tribal neighbourhoods', no shit. They rent a few cheap condos, scare or disgust or even bully everyone out of the neighbourhood (I actually knew someone years ago who was actually told that his neighbourhood 'belonged' to a certain Somali family and he should move away), and gradually rent out the rest of the neighbourhood as their tribe expands, until whole families occupy entire blocks of low-income housing. I've spoken with policemen who are amazed at how these types can transform areas which were simply poor before into places which are basically tribal turf, which their young males actually 'defend' with threats and bullying.

That said, I've also spoken with well-educated Somalis, in particular a pair of gentlemen who were petitioning the city to fund a Somali Teen outreach program to help get the kids to stop acting like they did back home.

[Edi]

That said, I've also spoken with well-educated Somalis, in particular a pair of gentlemen who were petitioning the city to fund a Somali Teen outreach program to help get the kids to stop acting like they did back home.

I suppose the situation in Helsinki got better due to this type of activity and enough individuals in the Somali community backing it up. At one point people were practically howling for their blood.

[Xon]

literally discriminatory.

Why the fuck is being discriminatory such a problem? Competence discrimination or ability discrimination is needed.

It is unwarranted discrimination is the issue, but hey lets jump straight to black and white fallacies.

Personally I don't care if we call it rascist or not its still classifying a group of people and giving them traits based SOLELY on gentic identity with that group.

It isnt genetic identify but social identity which is the issue. Also an ethic group is not a fucking race, by definition. The two often go hand in hand, but they are not identical.

[Oberleutnant]

I suppose the problems have been addressed better in Helsinki, but they are far from completely gone.

The worst shit calmed down some several years ago when groups of Somali adults actually took to patrolling the central railway station area and other trouble spots and straightening out their own who were causing the biggest problems. But there are still problems in the suburbs where there are lots of Somalis.

It has a lot to do with the local Somali figureheads taking responsibility for the actions of their people. Helsingin Sanomat newspaper had an article on how the Somali community in Vantaa had a very good record with relatively few cases of misconduct compared to Somalis living in Helsinki. The immigration services unit of the city of Vantaa is also more involved in grassroots cooperation with immigrant communities than its counterpart in Helsinki.

Still, all my African friends in Finland (they're from Nigeria and Cameroon) always complain about the Somali behaviour and how they are giving such a bad reputation for all Africans. They are more vocal about their opinion of them than I've ever seen any Finn to be.

[Enigma]

Mike absolutely right; the Somalis in Ottawa, for example, occupy two flavours - tribal-warring assholes and shell-shocked academic types who managed to get out of the country early and, frankly, hate their asshole brethren as much as anyone else.

Here in Ottawa they have actual 'tribal neighbourhoods', no shit. They rent a few cheap condos, scare or disgust or even bully everyone out of the neighbourhood (I actually knew someone years ago who was actually told that his neighbourhood 'belonged' to a certain Somali family and he should move away), and gradually rent out the rest of the neighbourhood as their tribe expands, until whole families occupy entire blocks of low-income housing. I've spoken with policemen who are amazed at how these types can transform areas which were simply poor before into places which are basically tribal turf, which their young males actually 'defend' with threats and bullying.

That said, I've also spoken with well-educated Somalis, in particular a pair of gentlemen who were petitioning the city to fund a Somali Teen outreach program to help get the kids to stop acting like they did back home.

There may be other but the one I am thinking of is the projects at the corner of Walkley and Russell, plus the Russell Gate aparments. I think also the projects near the Bayshore shooping center too.