Fighter Brainbug?

[Patrick Degan]

Cuuuuuute. Yes, let's include a catalogue of diseases on the assumption that this is what a starship crew could regularly expect to die from to prove... what, exactly?

That you're making the completely unjustified assumption that a maintainance bot is going to be less durable than a human. Despite, one assumes, being made of superior materials. Never mind that the maint-bot will also require simpler supplies, and require a less controlled enviroment.

Really? Name me one machine that has both the self-healing/repair capacities of a human being and the expected duration (i.e. lifetime) of a human being. Other than a Culture-wank piece of equipment or an Autobot or Decepticon.

And no, humans are most certainly not self repairing by any decent standard. They can recover unaided from minor ailments like colds and small cuts and such - maint-bots are flat out immune to those, something that'll scar your hand hideously will barely dent quality steel -On the other hand, If you lose a leg, you've lost your leg, and if you're not treated, you'll die. A tiny puncture can cause you to bleed out and die. A moderate blow to the head can cause lethal damage. In comparison, any sanely designed maint-bot will be tremendously rugged. If I hit a human with a sledgehammer, and a forklift truck, I rather think the human will come off worse.

Machines are not self-repairing at all. Beyond that, ask yourself why the damn things aren't ever expected to last more than ten to fifteen years even with proper maintenance and periodic repair.

[NecronLord]

Really? Name me one machine that has both the self-healing/repair capacities of a human being and the expected duration (i.e. lifetime) of a human being. Other than a Culture-wank piece of equipment or an Autobot or Decepticon.

If you're including fictional things, then Star Wars droids, as a collective, should be quite capable of repairing each other. As for 'other than Culture-wank' I see it's okay when you loudly demand that we assume things in space opera are roundly superior, but it's completely impossible to design a maintaince bot capable of repairing another maintaince bot and with a lifetime operation comparable to a human.

Never mind that you're handwaving with this 'lifetime of a human being' - a maint-bot can surely be replaced far more quickly than a human can be trained (discounting flash-learning style sci-fi).

Machines are not self-repairing at all.

But any decently designed military-rugged machine is completely immune to the things that a human can 'self-repair.' Unless you think a space-age robot is going to suffer cuts and bruises and colds. What's more, they don't require their work area doused in fire-causing gas, they are likely to require rather less water, and their 'food' intake is far more efficient than the things humans eat.

Beyond that, ask yourself why the damn things aren't ever expected to last more than ten to fifteen years even with proper maintenance and periodic repair.

I've seen many cars and vehicles, including trains, made before 1992 that are still in operation.

[Uraniun235]

I don't see at all why it is unreasonable to design a system where the maintenance robots can repair each other, since after all they'd be expected to repair the ship.

[NecronLord]

I don't see at all why it is unreasonable to design a system where the maintenance robots can repair each other, since after all they'd be expected to repair the ship.

Quite so.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Wait a minute. Are we arguing humans are MORE resilient than machines?

ROFL.

[Patrick Degan]

Really? Name me one machine that has both the self-healing/repair capacities of a human being and the expected duration (i.e. lifetime) of a human being. Other than a Culture-wank piece of equipment or an Autobot or Decepticon.

If you're including fictional things, then Star Wars droids, as a collective, should be quite capable of repairing each other. As for 'other than Culture-wank' I see it's okay when you loudly demand that we assume things in space opera are roundly superior, but it's completely impossible to design a maintaince bot capable of repairing another maintaince bot and with a lifetime operation comparable to a human.

Never mind that you're handwaving with this 'lifetime of a human being' - a maint-bot can surely be replaced far more quickly than a human can be trained (discounting flash-learning style sci-fi).

Uh huh. In that case, why haven't human techicians simply disappeared from the SW society altogether? If all their droids can repair each other, and all the maintbots can repair everything else, and all far more reliably, why are human hands still included in the process at any stage?

Machines are not self-repairing at all.

But any decently designed military-rugged machine is completely immune to the things that a human can 'self-repair.' Unless you think a space-age robot is going to suffer cuts and bruises and colds. What's more, they don't require their work area doused in fire-causing gas, they are likely to require rather less water, and their 'food' intake is far more efficient than the things humans eat.

Uh huh. In that case, why haven't human techicians simply disappeared from the SW society altogether? If all their droids can repair each other, and all the maintbots can repair everything else, and all far more reliably, why are human hands still included in the process at any stage?

Beyond that, ask yourself why the damn things aren't ever expected to last more than ten to fifteen years even with proper maintenance and periodic repair.

I've seen many cars and vehicles, including trains, made before 1992 that are still in operation.

Any of them which have managed this condition without somebody fixing them on a periodic basis, per chance...?

[Oni Koneko Damien]

You know, why doesn't someone who has the knowledge simply run the numbers on it?

What are the materials and costs for a human and a machine to run for one human lifetime (around seventy years)?

The human side would have to include the costs of:

- Food and water.
- Gas and the recyclers.
- Training.
- Medical care.
- Back-up crew for when the human is out of action (which would then multiply *all* costs as they all need a constant supply of food, water, air and training).
- Psychological care.
- Room the house and maintain all of the above.

This is also making the assumption that the human would be completely capable of doing his job for his entire lifespan, as in from the moment he's born to the moment he dies.

The machine side, on the other hand, would include:

- Cost of the construction of the machine itself.
- Fuel.
- Spare parts and redundant systems.
- Repair-bays.
- Back-up machines (which would *only* multiply the cost of the original machine by the total number of machines because, unlike humans, the spare ones can sit without fuel or oxygen when not being actively used).

And, like above, this is making the assumption that the machine is completely capable of doing its job for its operational lifespan from the moment it comes off the assembly-line and is fueled. Unlike the above, though, this capability is already demonstrated today.

I don't know the specific numbers, but I'd make the assumption that the machine is ultimately much cheaper and more reliable than the human in terms of cost, mass, durability and space-requirements. I'm not even taking into account the fact that humans will only be able to work at peak efficiency for a minority of the day while a well-designed machine can run indefinitely.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

I've seen many cars and vehicles, including trains, made before 1992 that are still in operation.

Any of them which have managed this condition without somebody fixing them on a periodic basis, per chance...?

Okay, this one was just too comical to pass up.

Are you honestly suggesting that the average cost of repairs to a 15 year-old vehicle will amount to less than the average medical costs of a human over *any* 15-year period in their life?

[NecronLord]

Uh huh. In that case, why haven't human techicians simply disappeared from the SW society altogether? If all their droids can repair each other, and all the maintbots can repair everything else, and all far more reliably, why are human hands still included in the process at any stage?

Who the fuck knows? Episode 2 clearly shows fully automated production lines, and there are tiny numbers of organics on the CIS' ships. There are even known societies completely composed of droids - including one known to on one occasion (pre Yavin) use gunboat diplomacy on Palpatine's Galactic Empire - in Star Wars. As well as reactionary bio-wank Vong.

Uh huh. In that case, why haven't human techicians simply disappeared from the SW society altogether? If all their droids can repair each other, and all the maintbots can repair everything else, and all far more reliably, why are human hands still included in the process at any stage?

They aren't. The CIS had self-replicating factories and armaments. The Empire doesn't use those (Though it had the capacity, see World Devastators) for what are presumably political reasons.

Any of them which have managed this condition without somebody fixing them on a periodic basis, per chance...?

And a human child cannot reach 15 years without severe (almost constant early) outside intervention. Your point?

[Patrick Degan]

The CIS, the example you point to, were not a wholly droid-based society. Yes, they had automated production facilities. That does not mean that there weren't organics involved at some point in the engineering.

And as for this:

Any of them which have managed this condition without somebody fixing them on a periodic basis, per chance...?

And a human child cannot reach 15 years without severe (almost constant early) outside intervention. Your point?

You're not serious, I trust?

With the exception of those suffering congenital conditions, a human child only needs food, shelter, and education to reach maturity. He or she does not need to have its parts taken out for maintenance and repair on a periodic basis or even undergo a minor overhaul every five years or so.

[NecronLord]

The CIS, the example you point to, were not a wholly droid-based society.

The Silentum were the example of that. The CIS were the example of how the Empire could use its technology to provide an automated ship with minimal crew. Ignoring that the Galactic Empire actually did make automated ships (World Devastators).

Presumably the Galactic Empire/Republic's large crew sizes are political, possibly due to the Katana fleet disaster (which was only later found to not be due to the automation) and of course, fear of droids 'we don't like their kind here.'

Yes, they had automated production facilities. That does not mean that there weren't organics involved at some point in the engineering.

Some point. Yes. Providing physical labour, not to our knowledge. You very pointedly said 'human hands.'

And as for this:

You're not serious, I trust?

With the exception of those suffering congenital conditions, a human child only needs food, shelter, and education to reach maturity. He or she does not need to have its parts taken out for maintenance and repair on a periodic basis or even undergo a minor overhaul every five years or so.

A droid rolls off the production line. You can replace a droid ten times with far less fuss than making a human. You can just space your entire crew of droids and replace them with new ones every five years for an operational life of a hundred years and it'll still take less time than educating one crew of humans as technicians.

[Patrick Degan]

The CIS, the example you point to, were not a wholly droid-based society.

The Silentum were the example of that. The CIS were the example of how the Empire could use its technology to provide an automated ship with minimal crew. Ignoring that the Galactic Empire actually did make automated ships (World Devastators).

Built by Sinear Fleet Systems engineers and technicians.

Presumably the Galactic Empire/Republic's large crew sizes are political, possibly due to the Katana fleet disaster (which was only later found to not be due to the automation) and of course, fear of droids 'we don't like their kind here.'

You'll have to do better than a surmise to back up the idea that continuing to employ living engineers is politically motivated.

With the exception of those suffering congenital conditions, a human child only needs food, shelter, and education to reach maturity. He or she does not need to have its parts taken out for maintenance and repair on a periodic basis or even undergo a minor overhaul every five years or so.

A droid rolls off the production line. You can replace a droid ten times with far less fuss than making a human. You can just space your entire crew of droids and replace them with new ones every five years for an operational life of a hundred years and it'll still take less time than educating one crew of humans as technicians.

No-Limits Fallacy.

[Beowulf]

Time for a human being to become a starship crewman: ~20 years from birth.
Time for a droid to become a starship crewman: ~20 seconds from manufacturing.

Saying engineers are required at the design stage is a complete red herring.

[haard]

Limited creativity in AI:s?

I've always thought of most SW AI as an extension of traditional AI with vastly more computaional power available, rather than 'true AI'.

Maybe full automation is more cost effective, but not optimal?
The automated crew could be the 'good enough' choice that would suffice for most situations, but the human or human-guided option may produce superior results (especially in uncommon situations).

[NecronLord]

Built by Sinear Fleet Systems engineers and technicians.

And capable of manufacturing hosts of automated vessels, as well as more world devastators. Yes. An organic came up with the idea and presumably did the design, and there were even humans on board of some of them. We're talking about manual labour we're not talking about brain work, which in Star Wars at least, seems to be largely confined to organics.

You'll have to do better than a surmise to back up the idea that continuing to employ living engineers is politically motivated.

Here's a hint:

• CIS ships. Crew numbers in the hundreds. (Lucrehulk: <350)
• Imperial Ships: Crew numbers in the thousands or tens of thousands (Victory: 6000)

If you have a better reason for using masses of more expensive, more fragile, humans in the role, I'm willing to listen.

No-Limits Fallacy.

No. Just a very large number. Invididual Star Wars droid production lines are capable of churning out at least two droids per second (and that's large, B1 droids) in AotC. We don't know what the rate is for maintaince droids (or even how complex they are - I expect there's several models, probably including something similar to pit droids, and astromechs, as well as power droids, and the big lifter ones) but it's probably similar, although the length of time spent on the production line may be longer or shorter.

A Lucrehulk Core Ship has 60 organics, 3000 droid crew (presumably B1s of various types) and 200,000 maintainance droids. Assuming they all come off the same production line, that's 1.17 days. For just one Geonosian production line. Are you seriously suggesting you can get a human crew trained in that time?

The fastest normal safe cloning production rate is one year. Thrawn could do it in twenty one days, potentially exceeding normal recruitment speeds. The very fastest way you can make organic crewmen; pressganging and mechanical indoctrination, as used by the Eye of Palpatine. I don't know how long that takes (I may have Children of the Jedi somewhere, so I'll see if I can't look it up) but I expect it's more than a day. Let alone the ~14 hours two droid production lines could do it in.

Never mind that if we have more than one model, they likely have to come off different production lines, which means that the entire complement will be done even faster (though with no less energy expended in total).


Now, let's say, just for the sake of argument, that there's so many humans in so many academies that recruiting a crew is just as fast as making a droid crew. They still offer no substantial advantages in menial roles, and substantial disadvantages in terms of the amount of space they need to use, their logistical requirements, their fragility...

I've always thought of most SW AI as an extension of traditional AI with vastly more computaional power available, rather than 'true AI'.

Unfortunately, they're almost universally written like humans made out of metal. There's even a scene in Revenge of the Sith where unarmed pilot droid B1s run away (right after their commander in chief has personally ordered them to ignore the jedi and stay at their stations) try to save one another from Obi Wan Kenobi, tugging at each other rather pathetically.

[Patrick Degan]

Built by Sinear Fleet Systems engineers and technicians.

And capable of manufacturing hosts of automated vessels, as well as more world devastators. Yes. An organic came up with the idea and presumably did the design, and there were even humans on board of some of them. We're talking about manual labour we're not talking about brain work, which in Star Wars at least, seems to be largely confined to organics.

"Brain work" happens to include complex engineering tasks and technical work.

You'll have to do better than a surmise to back up the idea that continuing to employ living engineers is politically motivated.

Here's a hint:

• CIS ships. Crew numbers in the hundreds. (Lucrehulk: <350)
• Imperial Ships: Crew numbers in the thousands or tens of thousands (Victory: 6000)

If you have a better reason for using masses of more expensive, more fragile, humans in the role, I'm willing to listen.

Wrong. Your claim, your Burden of Proof. That's the way the game works. If you have evidence to back your claim, I'm willing to listen.

No-Limits Fallacy.

No. Just a very large number. Invididual Star Wars droid production lines are capable of churning out at least two droids per second (and that's large, B1 droids) in AotC. We don't know what the rate is for maintaince droids....

Excuse me, but I don't see in all that a demonstration that producing droids is so cheap and easy that they can simply throw away entire starships full of them and just keep cranking out more without regard to certain messy economic realities like costs.

[NecronLord]

"Brain work" happens to include complex engineering tasks and technical work.

Yes. Ignoring that in SW at least, these things can be done by droids, that doesn't mean they need a vast organic crew. They need, which I never denied, sapients (of course, almost all SW droids appear to be so, but we'll pretend they're not for the sake of argument) to direct the ship, and its droids.

Wrong. Your claim, your Burden of Proof. That's the way the game works. If you have evidence to back your claim, I'm willing to listen.

1. Both automated and human-crewed starships exist.
2. There is no noticable advantage of humans in roles where droids can be used.
3. Other reasons must exist for maintaining the use of fundamentally more fragile crew
4. Social predjudice against droids is an established fact in the canon.

Excuse me, but I don't see in all that a demonstration that producing droids is so cheap and easy that they can simply throw away entire starships full of them and just keep cranking out more without regard to certain messy economic realities like costs.

Ignoring that they're so cheap that they can afford to throw them away (various bits about the CIS and Grievous) the factories are self-replicating. By definition, they are extremely cheap, simply because the production capacity is so huge.

What's more, my point was that it takes less time; in the weeks it takes to train a human crew (not counting flash-learning techniques), you can crew twenty ships (or one ship twenty times over) with droids.

As for the economics of it, droids are so cheap that Watto owns dozens, and even his slave can put one together. The CIS' Recusant class frigates carry 40,000 deactivated battle droids, even though their intended mission is not to deploy them. They carry that many droids purely to repel or initiate boarding actions.

[Patrick Degan]

And all that is fine as long as you ignore three little facts:

1) Droids did not prove to be overwhelmingly superior to humans or other organics during the Clone Wars.

2) Most droids and robots are going to be essentially utility units built and programmed to do a certain number of tasks very efficiently. But in any situation in which their programming has not been designed to cope with, they will fail.

3) Star Wars AI has shown vulnerability to outside hacks and overrides, as Luke Skywalker and R2D2 did when they caused the World Devestators to first shut down, then to malfunction and attack one another at Mon Calamari (see Dark Empire).

And NecronLord has still failed to produce anything other than surmise rather than evidence to demonstrate an underlying political reason to maintain large human crews on Imperial starships. Pointing to one line of dialogue from out of six movies as "proof" of widespread antidroid prejudice is not evidence —particularly as we have overwhelming evidence in the canon for large numbers of droids and robots as standard equipment aboard the Death Star and other Imperial or independent as well as Rebel Alliance and later New Republic facilities.

[NecronLord]

1) Droids did not prove to be overwhelmingly superior to humans or other organics during the Clone Wars.

Which Droids?

If you're talking about direct combat, Droidekas are grossly superior to all humans except the Jedi Knights. There's a possibility eight Droiekas could defeat the two Heroes of the Republic too. Droidekas are moving along the production line in AotC at a rate of not less than one per two seconds.

If you're talking about the ships, I honestly don't see how you can make that call.

2) Most droids and robots are going to be essentially utility units built and programmed to do a certain number of tasks very efficiently. But in any situation in which their programming has not been designed to cope with, they will fail.

This depends on how you define most droids. R2-D2, one of the canoical class of droids originally designed for starship repair, (In fact that starship-maintaince droid is arguably the most heroic character in the series, he consistantly saves the galaxy and the people around him in one way or another, without thought of reward or even basic respect and dignity, but no, obviously they're stupid because they're maintainance droids.) has been creative enough to the point where he's defied orders, pushed another droid around, because he doubted a Jedi Knight's and a Senator's ability to keep themselves safe. Are you suggesting that someone sat down and decided that what the R2 series really needed was programming in breaking into Geonosian factory-hives?

How much does this marvellously intelligent droid cost? Not enough to be considered unusual as a possession of 'refugees' from Coruscant, or to stand out in a parade of scrap droids on a backwater planet dirt farm.

The WotC RPG establishes their retail cost as 3,500 credits (and the B1s as 800 credits, though the CIS and its members doubtless have economies of scale, even without factoring in self-replication). This stupendously amazing droid intlligence costs just under twice what Luke got for his (very) used car of a model not in demand.

3) Star Wars AI has shown vulnerability to outside hacks and overrides, as Luke Skywalker and R2D2 did when they caused the World Devestators to first shut down, then to malfunction and attack one another at Mon Calamari (see Dark Empire).

R2 D2 also took direct control of the human crewed flagship of the Emperor.

Yes, with Luke Skywalker feeding them details of the World Devastators to D2 from Imperial High Command, they were reprogrammed. The New Republic didn't manage to do that on their own.

And NecronLord has still failed to produce anything other than surmise rather than evidence to demonstrate an underlying political reason to maintain large human crews on Imperial starships. Pointing to one line of dialogue from out of six movies as "proof" of widespread antidroid prejudice

Because of course, that's the sum of it. It's not like Dex claims they can't think, or treats their archiving capacities dismissively, nor that they're expended causally (Send a droid!), or that Jedi Knights happily butcher then when they're unarmed and running away, or that they're considered expendable.

In the RotS novellisation, the idea of legislation banishing droids from Coruscant is a rumour, though presumably not carried out once the immediate aftermath of Grievous' incursion is over. (RotS Novel, Hardback, P352) Are you seriously suggesting that a society where such an act is even conscienced is not predjudiced against and worried by droids?

is not evidence —particularly as we have overwhelming evidence in the canon for large numbers of droids and robots as standard equipment aboard the Death Star and other Imperial or independent as well as Rebel Alliance and later New Republic facilities.

Large (though that's subjective. We see far more humans on the Death Star than droids Even mouse droids.) is not the same as maximal. It is clear that they could be more automated than they are.

[Beowulf]

And all that is fine as long as you ignore three little facts:

1) Droids did not prove to be overwhelmingly superior to humans or other organics during the Clone Wars.

The droid side was supposed to lose!

[NecronLord]

The droid side was supposed to lose!

Going by the official numbers, they could have elected to win the war at any time, but a conspiracy of Palpatine and the Jedi stopped them.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Yeah. I guess it's hard to argue they were going to win when they were being constantly held back as per a greater plan and, uh, they got switched off one day by Anakin.

[Patrick Degan]

1) Droids did not prove to be overwhelmingly superior to humans or other organics during the Clone Wars.

Which Droids?

If you're talking about direct combat, Droidekas are grossly superior to all humans except the Jedi Knights. There's a possibility eight Droiekas could defeat the two Heroes of the Republic too. Droidekas are moving along the production line in AotC at a rate of not less than one per two seconds.

If you're talking about the ships, I honestly don't see how you can make that call.

Excuse me, but droids lost at Naboo and Geonosis and suffered a string of defeats in the Outer Rim territories. The battles in which the droids swept all before them were those led by Gen. Grievous —a cyborg with a talent for formulating unorthodox battle strategies. And even with droid forces, Grievous lost battles at Vildaav and Nadiem and began to be beaten back when the Republic went on the offensive. His fleet got driven back from Coruscant. And once Grievous and the Separatist leadership were killed on Mustafar, the CIS collapsed rather quickly on the battlefront. Indeed, the only reason the CIS got as far as they managed was due to the whole war being stage-managed by Palpatine.

2) Most droids and robots are going to be essentially utility units built and programmed to do a certain number of tasks very efficiently. But in any situation in which their programming has not been designed to cope with, they will fail.

This depends on how you define most droids. R2-D2, one of the canoical class of droids originally designed for starship repair, (In fact that starship-maintaince droid is arguably the most heroic character in the series, he consistantly saves the galaxy and the people around him in one way or another, without thought of reward or even basic respect and dignity, but no, obviously they're stupid because they're maintainance droids.) has been creative enough to the point where he's defied orders, pushed another droid around, because he doubted a Jedi Knight's and a Senator's ability to keep themselves safe. Are you suggesting that someone sat down and decided that what the R2 series really needed was programming in breaking into Geonosian factory-hives?

My my, one can almost hear the "fapping" sound from this distance.

No, I was not suggesting anything about R2D2. Nobody is disputing the utility of Artoo units or their intelligence. However, it is not necessary to build ordinary maintbots or assembly bots to that level of intelligence to get the jobs required of them done.

How much does this marvellously intelligent droid cost? Not enough to be considered unusual as a possession of 'refugees' from Coruscant, or to stand out in a parade of scrap droids on a backwater planet dirt farm.

The WotC RPG establishes their retail cost as 3,500 credits (and the B1s as 800 credits, though the CIS and its members doubtless have economies of scale, even without factoring in self-replication). This stupendously amazing droid intlligence costs just under twice what Luke got for his (very) used car of a model not in demand.

So, that means droids can simply be wasted in such great profligacy as you suggest? And how much of an average workingman's salary in credits is up to an Artoo unit's retail cost?

3) Star Wars AI has shown vulnerability to outside hacks and overrides, as Luke Skywalker and R2D2 did when they caused the World Devestators to first shut down, then to malfunction and attack one another at Mon Calamari (see Dark Empire).

Yes, with Luke Skywalker feeding them details of the World Devastators to D2 from Imperial High Command, they were reprogrammed. The New Republic didn't manage to do that on their own.

Which defeats the argument regarding their vulnerability to outside manipulation... how, exactly?

And NecronLord has still failed to produce anything other than surmise rather than evidence to demonstrate an underlying political reason to maintain large human crews on Imperial starships. Pointing to one line of dialogue from out of six movies as "proof" of widespread antidroid prejudice

Because of course, that's the sum of it. It's not like Dex claims they can't think, or treats their archiving capacities dismissively, nor that they're expended causally (Send a droid!), or that Jedi Knights happily butcher then when they're unarmed and running away, or that they're considered expendable.

And how does any of this drivel point to evidence that the maintenance of large human crews on starships as opposed to near-total droid crews a result of political or legal machinery at work? Where is the Order-in-Council to point to? What Imperial or Republic statute is there to indicate this? Which quote from any main character on either side mentions or infers such? Bothered by the fact that they treat their droids like tools? Guess what: droids ARE tools. Sorry if that doesn't suit you. As to what relevance it has on the overall argument, you have still not met the burden of proof. I'm not interested in what this or that character felt about his tools, I'm interested in what laws or regs there were in the Republic, Empire, or New Republic to support your contention.

In the RotS novellisation, the idea of legislation banishing droids from Coruscant is a rumour, though presumably not carried out once the immediate aftermath of Grievous' incursion is over. (RotS Novel, Hardback, P352) Are you seriously suggesting that a society where such an act is even conscienced is not predjudiced against and worried by droids?

You're seriously wondering why a society whose very existence is being immediately threatened by hordes of droid armies and on which droids might be reprogrammed into units of the Separatist forces might consider such legislation in a panic? And if the legislation was dropped, I must ask: when might such laws have been enacted afterward? Why do we never hear of them? What is the proof that this was extant policy during the time of the Empire? Which, as I must point out again, showed no squemishness in equipping ships with large droid contingents as standard hardware —up to an including SD-10 war-droids.

is not evidence —particularly as we have overwhelming evidence in the canon for large numbers of droids and robots as standard equipment aboard the Death Star and other Imperial or independent as well as Rebel Alliance and later New Republic facilities.

Large (though that's subjective. We see far more humans on the Death Star than droids Even mouse droids.) is not the same as maximal. It is clear that they could be more automated than they are.

So you say. The fact that there was not what you define as a "maximal" droid contingent does not defeat the essential observation.

[Ford Prefect]

And once Grievous and the Separatist leadership were killed on Mustafar, the CIS collapsed rather quickly on the battlefront.

I wonder if this might have had anything to do with the fact that Anakin turned them all off.

[NecronLord]

Excuse me, but droids lost at Naboo and Geonosis

Will of the Force and surprise respectively

and suffered a string of defeats in the Outer Rim territories.]

And they had victories too. We see more Republican victories because the stories follow the heroes. if it was actually as one sided as some sources seem to suggest, the Clone Wars would have been a total curb-stomp with helpless droids getting pounced from all sides by ninja jedi and their clone minions.

The battles in which the droids swept all before them were those led by Gen. Grievous —a cyborg with a talent for formulating unorthodox battle strategies.

I never said that it was safe to do away with sapient direction.

And even with droid forces, Grievous lost battles at Vildaav and Nadiem and began to be beaten back when the Republic went on the offensive. His fleet got driven back from Coruscant. And once Grievous and the Separatist leadership were killed on Mustafar, the CIS collapsed rather quickly on the battlefront. Indeed, the only reason the CIS got as far as they managed was due to the whole war being stage-managed by Palpatine.

On the flipside. The only reason the Republic even had an army with which to resist was because of Palpatine. Given that Palpatine and Dooku eventually planned the Republic to win, I think it's fair to say he's a hinderance to the CIS cause.

My my, one can almost hear the "fapping" sound from this distance.

No, I was not suggesting anything about R2D2. Nobody is disputing the utility of Artoo units or their intelligence. However, it is not necessary to build ordinary maintbots or assembly bots to that level of intelligence to get the jobs required of them done.

R2 D2 is an ordinary maint-bot. He's so cheap backwater farmers can afford one. There are large numbers of astromechs aboard Royal Starships, Coruscanti emissary ships, and presumably, other vessels. The function of the R2 series is copilot/navigator and starship repair. They are a common, mass produced 'droid designed for, you guessed it, starship maintainance.

So, that means droids can simply be wasted in such great profligacy as you suggest?

Compared to humans. Dumbass. It's not optimal to just space them, but it's cheaper than paying for humans.

And how much of an average workingman's salary in credits is up to an Artoo unit's retail cost?

Given that the cash strapped son of a dirt farmer can quickly liquidate 2000 credits, I'm willing to bet that a technician's salary is over four thousand P.A.

Of course, the Galactic Empire isn't above just enslaving people and making them work as spacedy-galley-slaves.

Which defeats the argument regarding their vulnerability to outside manipulation... how, exactly?

Because human-crewed vessels are also vulnerable to it.

And how does any of this drivel point to evidence that the maintenance of large human crews on starships as opposed to near-total droid crews a result of political or legal machinery at work? Where is the Order-in-Council to point to? What Imperial or Republic statute is there to indicate this? Which quote from any main character on either side mentions or infers such? Bothered by the fact that they treat their droids like tools? Guess what: droids ARE tools. Sorry if that doesn't suit you. As to what relevance it has on the overall argument, you have still not met the burden of proof. I'm not interested in what this or that character felt about his tools, I'm interested in what laws or regs there were in the Republic, Empire, or New Republic to support your contention.

You're moving the goalposts. I'm talking about social predjudice. You're talking about laws. There are obviously no laws against droid-crewed starships, or at least, if there were, they were ignored by the Emperor when he orded some built.

You're seriously wondering why a society whose very existence is being immediately threatened by hordes of droid armies and on which droids might be reprogrammed into units of the Separatist forces might consider such legislation in a panic?

No. I'm pointing it out to you to show why it may be politically beneficial for the Empire to use as few droids as possible.

And if the legislation was dropped, I must ask: when might such laws have been enacted afterward? Why do we never hear of them? What is the proof that this was extant policy during the time of the Empire? Which, as I must point out again, showed no squemishness in equipping ships with large droid contingents as standard hardware —up to an including SD-10 war-droids.

See above. While people may not like the idea of droid-crewed starships, the Empire has actually built a number of them. Which leaves us to speculate on why they preffer to have large numbers of warm, fragile, inferior bodies aboard their vessels.

Now. Can we kindly get back to your fucking point:

The opposite argument can also be made. All you need to support a crew for a capital ship is a control pod, and the rest can be ginormous engines, weapons and such. In comparison, the support for one human can take up a sizeable portion of the volume of a fighter. Look at how much of a Saturn Five rocket is inhabitable, compared to say, an F22.

Wrong analogy. A Saturn V is mostly fuel, which is why the only habitable portion of it is the capsule. A capship, on the other hand, actually needs to devote space to the accomodation of a large crew of engineers, repair techs, and other types of support personnel. It is also presumed that if such a vessel were feasible at all, a drive system based on entirely different principles than chemical reaction engines and employing a fuel with a far higher energy density per unit of mass than LOX would be in use.

Given that you have demonstrated that you are indeed talking about Star Wars, and I have shown that various capital starships have been automated to require a comparatively small crew (Lucrehulks, World Devastators, Providence, Recusants, Munificents and for that matter, the Silentium themselves), do you still claim that a Star Wars capital ship actually needs a large crew of organic life forms on board?

If may be desireable, for political reasons. It may even be desireable for technical reasons we don't know about. But it is not a requirement.