Admiral Cain vs. Captain Janeway

[StarshipTitanic]

Who was responsible for more idiotic, reprehensible actions while far from civilization?

[NetKnight]

Janeway actually had the chance to get her crew out of the predicament they were in, and didn’t take it. Compared to this, Cain seems a paragon of sanity.

[Anguirus]

Toughie. I'm leaning towards Cain because I think she committed more acts of deliberate murder, not to mention getting fully half her crew killed in an ill-advised assault. However, I've repressed most of Voyager so it's hard to say.

[Ford Prefect]

While Cain was a murderous, ruthless monster, she had the presence of mind to be doing it on purpose, and just didn't care. Conversely, Janeway spent all her time trying to be a good person, and was just plain useless.

I'd be sticking with Rear Admiral Helena 'I'm a ruthless tyrant' Cain, thank you very much.

[Nephtys]

Cain is Light-years ahead of Janeway. While she indeed is more ruthless and uncaring about loss of life, she got out of a crazy situation by the skin of her teeth, and had to make hard calls during a time of extinction for her race. Ouch. While her actions were inexcusable, she WAS under the assumption that her small crew were the last of her race. And she was going to go out fighting, since some 1000 odd survivors is not a civilization.

Janeway meanwhile, blows perfectly set up opportunities to save her own people, for the benefit of some random small groups of random aliens, or just out of incompetence. Her crew survived in spite of her, somehow. Despite her (and most of the command staff) being actively too dumb to take the right actions, yet surviving out of luck.[/i]

[DrMckay]

Despite the fact that Cain is a semi-competent psychopath who relentlessly attacks an unbeatable foe, and butchers civvies for no good reason, the fact is, she was at least semi-competent.

She made the right call to jump Pegasus out of the Fleet Yards during the attack. Now, assuming Janeway was in a similar situation, i imagine she would try to make peace with the Cylons.

Cain, for all of her problems and faults, was intelligent, vicious, and above all, practical. In Janeway's place, she wouldn't have blinked twice at using the Array to get Voyager back home, while introducing the Kazon to something called a time-delay fuse. Ocampans be dammed.

Janeway, is the worse commander. Hands Down. At least with Cain, I get a slim chance of making it through alive.




For the record, I would LOVE to read a story about the two meeting in the multiverse:

************

Janeway: We have upheld the Prime Directive and the finest traditions of Starfleet.

Cain: Discussions about morality, Prime Directives, and scientific exploration-It's a wonder you've survived this far.

Now, where are those "Borg" you keep bitching about. I need something else to kill.

[Zor]

Cain was an emotionally unstable civilian murdering bitch, but she never fucked up anything on the level of the Ferengi Incident that Janeway did.

Zor

[Jadeite]

Janeway, is the worse commander. Hands Down. At least with Cain, I get a slim chance of making it through alive.

Highly doubtful, given Cain's goal was essentially "suicide by Cylon." She wasn't trying to survive or get her crew home or anything else but taking out as many of the enemy as possible before being destroyed.

People seem to be forgetting that. The fact that she was semi-competent means nothing when you view the path she was taking, which would have inevitably ended with Pegasus being destroyed.

Cain is hands down the worst commander of the two.

[brianeyci]

Do people forget that Cain is a raping piece of shit? Not only that, but she pressed people against their will to fill her ranks -- slavery -- and completely neglected civilians. She would let civilians die rather than deprive her military of even the smallest insignificant advantage. The end result of rule by Cain is not just authoritarianism or dictatorship, but military dictatorship of the worst kind, like North Korea or China. Do people forget Cain was so bad Adama wanted to assassinate her?

I would not want to work for Cain. Jadeite is right, suicide by Cylon is not something to be proud of. Meanwhile, Janeway's greatest crime according to those in this thread so far is too much high horse ideals. That would be inexcusable if Voyager was a battlestar of the Thirteen Colonies, but Voyager was a ship of the Federation and she was arguably doing her duty.

Give Janeway different rules of engagement and she will act differently. Say all you want about throwing out all those rules during a crisis, but without them humans are just animals. Some lines are not crossed, like raping prisoners for information, or betraying your own citizens.

It comes down to this. I can imagine killing Cain. I can't imagine killing Janeway, only locking her up.

[Bounty]

Who was responsible for more idiotic, reprehensible actions while far from civilization?

"Idiotic" goes to Janeway, "reprehensible" to Cain.

Janeway may have made one stupid decision after the other, she can at least claim that she was always trying to do the right thing. Even though it didn't always work out that way, even though she was often saved by plot devices, on balance her end goal was always to keep people alive, even when the means by which she did it were... questionable.

Cain, on the other hand, may have been more competent and effective, but she didn't even bother trying to do anything constructive. She threw everything worthwhile the Colonies had to offer away in a suicidal private war. How is that in any way better than what Janeway did?

[brianeyci]

"The Secretary of Education?"

I think that about sums up Cain. She would have committed treason.

For the "competence" people, Cain shot an officer right on the bridge. Apparently summary executions are part of the definition of military competence now. It wasn't a one-time thing either, with her mock trial of Tyrol and Helo.

[Kane Starkiller]

For all her faults Janeway actually did make some "though" decisions: for example destroying the array which meant stranding her crew but also keeping the Kazon from obtaining high level technology.
Cain would walk into the Kazon trap, shoot Chakotay for suggesting that they might want to reconsider the plan to destroy the array, get half of Voyager's crew killed and ultimately fail in the attack.

[FedRebel]

Who was the worst? Janeway plain and simple.

Cain's action make sense in a certain point of view, while Janeway's are just plain retarded.

Cain shot her XO because he refused to carry out an order during a combat situation where the Pegasus was out numbered, Cain didn't have the time to have the Master at Arms take the XO into custody and she didn't have any time for further hindrance to her orders, leaving shooting her XO the only logical action in her perspective.

Compare to Janeway whom attempted to murder a Equinox crewman who refused tohelp Voyager find and stop the Equinox. Voyager was not in mortal danger (the shields kept the creatures out) and the individual being interrogated was not a hindrance to the Chain of Command. Janeway's resonse to the Equinox crewmember's reluctance was to lock them in a cargo bay and expose them to the creatures with the full knowledge that crewmember would be killed. Only the actions of Commander Chakotay prevented the crewman's death.

Cain acquisition of civilians and us of force was justified because in time of war the military drafts civilians into the service in order to build up the forces and effectively fight the enemy. When the civillians resisted and where even throwing things at the marines the use of force was necessary. Because time was of the essence lethal force was authorized. The civilians continued to resist even after Colonel Fisk warned them lethal force was authorized, there was no room to maneuver so lethal force had to be used. As for abandoning the fleet, the Pegasus was going to resume full combat operations, the civilian ships would have slowed the Pegasus down and made her and easier target for the Cylons.

What has Janeway done in her travels? She did not take ways home because she was married to the Prime Directive and frequently put her crew at unnecessary risk in order to 'explore' and not just get home.

"The Secretary of Education?"

I think that about sums up Cain. She would have committed treason.

I guess then that Adama received a summary execution after the miniseries.

You think that Cain's implied intent to comit treason is cause enough to make her the worst...

Janeway DID commit treason. She made an alliance with the Borg and gave them access to Federation technology.

[Bounty]

Cain didn't have the time to have the Master at Arms take the XO into custody and she didn't have any time for further hindrance to her orders, leaving shooting her XO the only logical action in her perspective.

That argument is ridiculous on so many levels it's not even funny. You really think it takes more time to say "take him to the brig" than it takes to get out a gun, shoot a valuable officer, then deal with the potential fallout as your bridge crew goes into shock and may or may not accept your authority any longer? Seriously?

The civilians continued to resist even after Colonel Fisk warned them lethal force was authorized, there was no room to maneuver so lethal force had to be used. As for abandoning the fleet, the Pegasus was going to resume full combat operations, the civilian ships would have slowed the Pegasus down and made her and easier target for the Cylons.

I believe people on this board have been over the pathetic "justifications" for Cain's mass-murder before and the conclusion is always the same: she had zero right to leave the few remaining civilians to die. Nada. It was her duty to protect those people however she could, not butcher them so she could go back to slowly killing her crew.

What has Janeway done in her travels? She did not take ways home because she was married to the Prime Directive and frequently put her crew at unnecessary risk in order to 'explore' and not just get home.

So in your view, mass murder is okey-dokey, but not using violence to get 150 people hom is a horrific crime? Remind me to never get on a boat with you.

[Sarevok]

I thought Caine believed the Peagasus to be the last survivors of the human race. The Peagasus could not repair or resupply herself and so they were going to die anyway. Establishing a defenseless makeshift colony with 2000 people when Basestars roam the known universe is foolish. Other than some consolating from going out fighting did Caine really have any choice ?

[consequences]

Caine was batshit insane, and responsible for the deaths of however many civilians were on the dozen or so ships she ransacked. On top of that, we have the summary execution of an in-subordinate, and the deaths of 900-odd of her crew pursuing an idiotic personal vendetta. And just to round things out, we have the systematic abuse of a sentient, to the point that a potentially immortal being just wanted to die, and was willing to betray her own race for the opportunity not to have to live with the memory of the suffering she endured.

Janeway is directly responsible for allowing the Borg to continue to exist.


Whoops, looks like Janeway takes this one hands down.

[Megabot]

<snip>

I notice you conveniently forgot to mention Gina when comparing Janeway's willingness to use harsh interrogation methods. I would certainly prefer to be a prisoner on Voyager than on the Pegasus.

Anyway, Janeway was idiotic, Cain was reprehensible, which makes the latter more detestable in my book. At least Janeway wasn't a psychotic bitch and didn't intend on throwing the lives of her crew away in a needless and suicidal war.

Admiral Cain apologists really get under my skin, sometimes even going so far as to excuse her treatment of Gina. I can't help but wonder if people would try to make excuses for Cain's abuses if she had remained a man. I just keep telling myself that her apologists are all Michelle Forbes fanboys.

[Gullible Jones]

If Wikipedia is reliable on this, Cain is utterly evil and depraved. Janeway is just massively incompetent. Even from a purely selfish standpoint, it's hard to see how anyone would rather serve under Cain.

[brianeyci]

Janeway DID commit treason. She made an alliance with the Borg and gave them access to Federation technology.

An ally of convenience is not treason. Or did you forget 8472 would have destroyed the galaxy?

Cain would have disobeyed direct orders from the President. In fact, she did: the President ordered Cain to transfer medical supplies to the civilians, and Cain snubbed her. Moreover, Cain murdered families of civilians to press citizens into her ranks. That's a line Janeway would never cross, and you know it. Whatever oath Cain swore to protect the Thirteen Colonies, she betrayed it.

What's laughable is we have a comparison right in front of our faces: Adama. Cain could have acted like Adama, and collected a small flock of Thirteen Colony survivors. She chose the opposite, and the strange pro-Cain belief that "1000 guys is not a civilization" is baffling. There sure is enough genetic diversity to make a civilization with a thousand men, and she could have collected thousands more if she tried.

[consequences]

Janeway DID commit treason. She made an alliance with the Borg and gave them access to Federation technology.

An ally of convenience is not treason. Or did you forget 8472 would have destroyed the galaxy?

Strangely enough, 8472 didn't attempt to destroy anything in the galaxy that wasn't Borg, and Voyager, which was the only ship dumb enough to fiddle about with Borg wreckage that had moments ago been fifteen cubes, and then later travel in concert with Borg ships, breach fluidic space, and attack their ships. Or are you forgetting the godawful '8472 studying the Federation' follow-up episode? All that exists for evidence of their urge to kill everything is the thoughts of one asshole bioship fighter jock, read by a neophyte telepath. On the other hand we have them pussying out the moment they started taking losses, and setting up a facility to study Starfleet rather than coming out of fluidic space and blowing up the Earth. Oh, and not killing Voyager when it stumbled on said facility.

Every species the Borg assimilated after 8472 left, and every individual they killed is Janeway's fault. If she wanted to save the galaxy, she could have waited for the Borg to get shredded beyond the point of probable recovery, and spread the details of the might cloaking nanite swarm to everyone around. Or, demonstrably, just blown up a couple dozen bioships.

[brianeyci]

Yeah let's see.

1. I forgot nothing. After the fact, 8472 was found to be less than galaxy destructive. Whop de do da day, anything that happened after the fact Janeway did not have to work with. This is rather fucking obvious, and I shouldn't have to spell it out. It's as stupid as blaming Cain for not seeing Gina as a Cylon after the fact. Janeway had no reason to suspect the 8472 were benign after they went around destroying whole planets, cutting up borg, Kess's telepathic link and the most important part:

2. Ensign Kim was nearly killed. Apparently to you this is being an "asshole." Wars have started over less.

3. The plan was the Borg would continue to fight the 8472, and they would fight each other until both sides were exhausted in a phyrric victory. Which would have happened, to any reasonable observer. The 8472 retreating was like the Kaiser calling off WWI after losing one fucking tank. Janeway had every reason to believe that 8472 would continue to fight, that the Borg would fight too and both would kill each other instead of a one-sided slaughter. Janeway only failed to take into account 8472 being pussies, which is no great oversight given any conquering species with a half brain would continue after losing one ship. But 8472 turned out as cowardly as the Borg.

All this is rather obvious and does not need spelling out. Meanwhile Cain rapes, kills her own citizens, and asks her officers to carry out the impossible; when they refuse, she executes them, meaning in the long term she will be surrounded by yes men. It's rather obvious who is the worse leader.

[Aaron]

It may well be that Cain was legally entitled to execute her XO. We don't really know anything about their UCMJ, summary executions for insubordination and various offences can be found throughout history, even in the late 20th Century. The Turkish Army for example used to execute men in Cyprus for sleeping while on sentry duty.

Does this make what she did moral? Of course not, but if the law is on her side there's not much to be said about it. I don't recall it being a big issue with Adama or Roslin.

[brianeyci]

By the way you're wrong.



Voyager shot at by bioship after Kim gets his facial. Why didn't the bioship destroy Voyager in one shot? Who the fuck knows and who the fuck cares, maybe it was low on power, but the hypothesis that bioship wasn't "trying" is utterly unsupported.

I wonder what Cain would have done. Probably tried to fight the entire fucking armada on her own, and failed miserably.

[brianeyci]

It may well be that Cain was legally entitled to execute her XO. We don't really know anything about their UCMJ, summary executions for insubordination and various offences can be found throughout history, even in the late 20th Century. The Turkish Army for example used to execute men in Cyprus for sleeping while on sentry duty.

Does this make what she did moral? Of course not, but if the law is on her side there's not much to be said about it. I don't recall it being a big issue with Adama or Roslin.

Fisk told Tigh while he was drunk. Then Fisk sobered and denied it, and Tigh couldn't get Fisk to say it again. And we all know what happened to Fisk. The entire incident was a rumor and we only know it happened because of Razor.

Summary executions of officers is not something that happens in any competent military. There's plenty of times it could have happened, but it didn't, so either Adama is a pussy or it's not kosher.

[Chris OFarrell]

People can take Janeway hating a little too far at times....Cane is easily a FAR worse person then she was.