Admiral Cain vs. Captain Janeway

[StarshipTitanic]

Yeah let's see.

1. I forgot nothing. After the fact, 8472 was found to be less than galaxy destructive. Whop de do da day, anything that happened after the fact Janeway did not have to work with. This is rather fucking obvious, and I shouldn't have to spell it out. It's as stupid as blaming Cain for not seeing Gina as a Cylon after the fact. Janeway had no reason to suspect the 8472 were benign after they went around destroying whole planets, cutting up borg, Kess's telepathic link and the most important part:

Did Janeway ever make an effort to communicate with 8472, or did she decide to side with the Borg purely because Kes got spooked?

And why would "cutting up borg" and destroying their planets reflect badly on any faction?

2. Ensign Kim was nearly killed. Apparently to you this is being an "asshole." Wars have started over less.

And that makes it ok? One crew member is hurt in a first contact situation, so the obvious response is to side with the Borg and wipe out the unknown aliens?

3. The plan was the Borg would continue to fight the 8472, and they would fight each other until both sides were exhausted in a phyrric victory. Which would have happened, to any reasonable observer. The 8472 retreating was like the Kaiser calling off WWI after losing one fucking tank. Janeway had every reason to believe that 8472 would continue to fight, that the Borg would fight too and both would kill each other instead of a one-sided slaughter. Janeway only failed to take into account 8472 being pussies, which is no great oversight given any conquering species with a half brain would continue after losing one ship. But 8472 turned out as cowardly as the Borg.

I'd like to see a transcript of where Janeway outlined this plan, because a cursory glance at Memory-Alpha didn't reveal that insight to me. Unless I missed it there, too?

All this is rather obvious and does not need spelling out. Meanwhile Cain rapes, kills her own citizens, and asks her officers to carry out the impossible; when they refuse, she executes them, meaning in the long term she will be surrounded by yes men. It's rather obvious who is the worse leader.

The Borg existing affects millions upon millions of lives and have repeatedly expressed their interest in attacking the Federation, yet Janeway sided with them.

People can take Janeway hating a little too far at times....Cane is easily a FAR worse person then she was.

Oh, well if you say so.

Given the shit that happened in Enterprise's "Dear Doctor", I was curious of Janeway ever had a similar breakdown in moral awareness during her little adventure. I forgot about the Species 8472 affair and for now it appears to be a rather grievous offense.

[Aaron]

Fisk told Tigh while he was drunk. Then Fisk sobered and denied it, and Tigh couldn't get Fisk to say it again. And we all know what happened to Fisk. The entire incident was a rumor and we only know it happened because of Razor.

Ahh, seen.

Summary executions of officers is not something that happens in any competent military. There's plenty of times it could have happened, but it didn't, so either Adama is a pussy or it's not kosher.

I agree, however it may be a regulation that's still on the books but is rarely used. Like the regulations in the UCMJ against adultery that only get used when they can't nail you with anything else.

[Master of Ossus]

Summary executions of officers is not something that happens in any competent military. There's plenty of times it could have happened, but it didn't, so either Adama is a pussy or it's not kosher.

I agree, however it may be a regulation that's still on the books but is rarely used. Like the regulations in the UCMJ against adultery that only get used when they can't nail you with anything else.

She did seem to be relying on the "broad" discretion provided by the regulations to a flag officer during a time of war when she tried Helo and Chief Tyrol.

As for who is the worse CO, I'd actually give the nod to Janeway. Cain was a competent military officer. Janeway blundered around, repeatedly putting her crew in unnecessarily dangerous situations for no good reason, from what I've seen of the show. In fact, the entire premise of the series relied on her inability to think of such complicated devices as "time bombs" in the first episode.

[consequences]

Fisk told Tigh while he was drunk. Then Fisk sobered and denied it, and Tigh couldn't get Fisk to say it again. And we all know what happened to Fisk. The entire incident was a rumor and we only know it happened because of Razor.

Ahh, seen.

Summary executions of officers is not something that happens in any competent military. There's plenty of times it could have happened, but it didn't, so either Adama is a pussy or it's not kosher.

I agree, however it may be a regulation that's still on the books but is rarely used. Like the regulations in the UCMJ against adultery that only get used when they can't nail you with anything else.

Admiral Adama was willing to threaten to space Cally to get the Chief o back off from his strike, to the extent of having the marines dragging her out of her room and in the direction of the airlock. Of course, they weren't in the middle of combat at that time.

[consequences]

People can take Janeway hating a little too far at times....Cane is easily a FAR worse person then she was.

Granted. However, Cain's being a bugfuck crazy psycho-bitch did less objective harm to the universe than Janeway's blithering incompetence.

[StarshipTitanic]

Don't forget, Janeway and Cain are tied at how many acts of murder they personally committed due to Tuvix. "FAR worse" indeed...

[brianeyci]

Don't forget, Janeway and Cain are tied at how many acts of murder they personally committed due to Tuvix. "FAR worse" indeed...

Have you heard of command responsibility?

That's right, FAR worse dumbass. It's FAR worse abandoning thousands of your civilians to the enemy (let's not forget she STRIPPED the FTL's from the civilian ships so there was a fucking choice) is FAR WORSE than Tuvix. Tuvix, by the way, which was saving two people's lives for one. Ordering rape is FAR worse than Janeway. What the fuck are you going to do, accuse Janeway of murder for every transporter now? .

Have you even watched the episodes in question, seen Cain in action or Janeway in Scorpion?

KIM: It's definitely organic but our sensors can't penetrate its surface.
JANEWAY: Send a standard greeting.
TUVOK: No response.

Not to mention 1. Kim was nearly killed 2. Voyager had to high tail it out of there to avoid destruction 3. Balling out Janeway for not doing diplomacy is pretty fucking stupid given people are slamming her for being too soft. Isn't Scorpion exactly how people want Janeway to act?

[Jadeite]

People seem to be ignoring the only reason Cain's direct body count is low is because she was shot before she could do too much damage. Of course, she still managed to condemn thousands of civilians to death, personally shoot her executive officer, order the rape and torture of a prisoner, and order the execution of families of kidnapped civilians if they resist.

Honestly, I wouldn't even call her competent. Her decision to flee the dockyard was the only good decision she made in Razor, and that was common sense (and probably a little bit of panic) at work. Every single decision she made past that was either poorly thought-out at best and simply idiotic at worst. Even the resurrection ship battle would probably have been the end of Pegasus had Galactica not participated.

The only good thing you can say about her is that she somehow managed to not lose her entire ship in her first battle.

[StarshipTitanic]

Have you heard of command responsibility?

That's right, FAR worse dumbass. It's FAR worse abandoning thousands of your civilians to the enemy (let's not forget she STRIPPED the FTL's from the civilian ships so there was a fucking choice) is FAR WORSE than Tuvix. Tuvix, by the way, which was saving two people's lives for one.

Prove she abandoned "thousands" of civilians, please. For all I know there may have been a few hundred aboard those ships, which is fewer than the Pegasus's crew. If there were fewer civilians, by your Tuvix logic she made the right call.

Ordering rape is FAR worse than Janeway. What the fuck are you going to do, accuse Janeway of murder for every transporter now?

One murderer and accessory to genocide getting raped < Millions assimilated by the Borg

The needs of the many...

Have you even watched the episodes in question, seen Cain in action or Janeway in Scorpion?

No, I haven't seen "Scorpion". That's why I asked for a quote. How's that apoplexy you've worked up, by the way?

Not to mention 1. Kim was nearly killed 2. Voyager had to high tail it out of there to avoid destruction 3. Balling out Janeway for not doing diplomacy is pretty fucking stupid given people are slamming her for being too soft. Isn't Scorpion exactly how people want Janeway to act?

Seeing as I don't have this intensely personal attachment to Janeway like it appears you do, I don't care either way how she acts. Species 8472's actions are fairly understandable due to the circumstances. Voyager was wandering around a warzone and it's no surprise that it got fired upon.

So when are you going to provide me the evidence that Janeway's plan was to have 8472 and the Borg sap each other's strength? I'm not wading through transcripts for you. Even then, that's a pretty flimsy defense. Janeway has quite the nerve thinking she can wage a war all by herself. Kind of like Cain...

[Morilore]

No, I haven't seen "Scorpion". That's why I asked for a quote. How's that apoplexy you've worked up, by the way?

Well, that explains your bullshit. Kes told Janeway that the aliens, both individually and in the group, were explicitly "intent on destroying everything!" - by which they mean "'Your galaxy will be purged.'" Those are exact quotes, from two different sources, by the way.

Millions assimilated by the Borg < Billions exterminated by ruthless mad-dog genocidal aliens

All that exists for evidence of their urge to kill everything is the thoughts of one asshole bioship fighter jock, read by a neophyte telepath.

Incorrect. Their motivations were again revealed by a group when Voyager approached their beach-head, and again in fluidic space by a completely different group.

[brianeyci]

Prove she abandoned "thousands" of civilians, please. For all I know there may have been a few hundred aboard those ships, which is fewer than the Pegasus's crew. If there were fewer civilians, by your Tuvix logic she made the right call.

Tuvix logic?

Why don't you prove the Borg assimilated a millions after their crushing defeat by 8472 and later the destruction of their Queen and the transwarp node?

You got your head so far up your ass you can't see you're applying a double standard. Hundreds is still more than Janeway, who is really only responsible for her own 150, Olympic Carrier carries a thousand men and there's sixty ships in the rag tag fleet and fifty thousand civilians meaning a range between high hundreds to thousands per ship. Cain ditched fifteen ships worth of civilians. You're giving Cain, a rapist, murderer and a character written as a villian every single slack and Janeway none. Why is that? Does she give you a hard on?

One murderer and accessory to genocide getting raped < Millions assimilated by the Borg

The needs of the many...

What part of destroy the galaxy don't you understand, retard? What part of if 8472 had kept fighting the Borg, there would have been a phyrric victory don't you understand?

No, I haven't seen "Scorpion". That's why I asked for a quote. How's that apoplexy you've worked up, by the way?

You're a fucking ignorant assface. At the least you could go and watch the shows, or take what I say at face value like people who haven't read the EU take people who know the EU at face value. This is basic stuff that anybody who watched Scorpion remembers, like Morilore. By the way, another quote from Scorpion Pt. II says Janeway tried to negotiate with 8472 minutes before releasing the nanite weapon, but they rebuked her with "the galaxy must be purged." Don't get into an argument when you don't know the facts and haven't even seen the source material.

So when are you going to provide me the evidence that Janeway's plan was to have 8472 and the Borg sap each other's strength? I'm not wading through transcripts for you. Even then, that's a pretty flimsy defense. Janeway has quite the nerve thinking she can wage a war all by herself. Kind of like Cain...

That's because Janeway is less of a retard than you. It doesn't matter that they didn't explicitly discuss it, because it's a logical consequence of giving one side the means to fight the other. Have to love the projection.

"Dur, only dumbasses would think that 8472 would run after one bioship was destroyed! Therefore since... er, one bioship was destroyed, Janeway was a dumbass!"

Circular logic galore. Go jerk off to Cain porn.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Who is worse: Janeway or Cain?


Cain. No question for me.

I really cant imagine serving under Cain, as she's a complete sociopath. Janeway was stupid, yes, in some ways but surely it's fairly obvious that Cain was insane. Jadeite summed up my opinion pretty well...i wouldnt even call Cain competent, she was just lucky and batshit crazy. She would have gladly thrown her entire crew away for nothing, and caused the deaths of thousands of civilians.

And you cant blame "every death" by the Borg after the Special 8472 incident on Janeway. The fact that she helped the Borg was because her back was against the wall; it was actually quite obvious in the episode, which i DID watch, and she just chose the lesser of two evils. More so, waiting for the Species to "damage the Borg" enough to be defeated would have been suicidal, to wait that longw ould have given the genocidal Species a major foothold in our dimension (remember how VAST Borg space is, taking all or most of it down would have left a huge chunk of the galaxy under Species control) and by that time it may have been too late to defeat them. Also, lets put some blame where blame is due, the Borg don't have to conquer anyone...they choose to, and blaming their choice to do so on Janeway is misguided. Why NOT blame her for every transporter accident then? She's just as directly responsible...marginally more so, in fact, as she is actually in control of the transporters.

[Aaron]

People seem to be ignoring the only reason Cain's direct body count is low is because she was shot before she could do too much damage. Of course, she still managed to condemn thousands of civilians to death, personally shoot her executive officer, order the rape and torture of a prisoner, and order the execution of families of kidnapped civilians if they resist.

Honestly, I wouldn't even call her competent. Her decision to flee the dockyard was the only good decision she made in Razor, and that was common sense (and probably a little bit of panic) at work. Every single decision she made past that was either poorly thought-out at best and simply idiotic at worst. Even the resurrection ship battle would probably have been the end of Pegasus had Galactica not participated.

The only good thing you can say about her is that she somehow managed to not lose her entire ship in her first battle.

If you look at Cain's actions (I've only seen her in Season 2 and the descriptions of Razor on SDN) you see much of the behaviour of junior and inexperianced officers in a RL military mirrored. Extremely authorative command style, not thinking things through, extremely agressive, lack of concern for the troops lives and so on. I got the impression that despite her being an Admiral that she has little in the way of experiance. Adama at least has the benefit of thirty years in the fleet and a previous war.

[consequences]

All that exists for evidence of their urge to kill everything is the thoughts of one asshole bioship fighter jock, read by a neophyte telepath.

Incorrect. Their motivations were again revealed by a group when Voyager approached their beach-head, and again in fluidic space by a completely different group.

Eh, it's been a while. Still, a neophyte telepath isproviding their only source of information, rather than having Tuvok, with vastly superior training, more experience and a far more disciplined mind-meld with her while she makes contact to try to get something more than single sentences.

Of course, if they truly believed that to be the uniform attitude of the species, why the hell she would think that killing maybe twenty ships was going to do a damned thing is completely beyond me. Out of universe, we know that this is because Janeway-Sue has to be shown to be right regardless of how idiotic and morally repgnant her stance may be. In-universe, the only explanation that springs to mind is direct and repeated acts of Q.

[consequences]

Incidentally, Janeway's actions in the Delta Quadrant in the very first episode are a deliberate Prime Directive violation(as well as being frag-worthy stupidity). It was already established way back in the first or second season of TNG with the race of drug addicts being exploited under the guise of providing medicine that Starfleet captains aren't supposed to intervene when a race is getting abused by a superior one in a pre-existing relationship. fiddling with the Ocampa/Caretaker/Kazon dynamic was outside of her jurisdiction.

And subjecting the Maquis to Starfleet disciplinary measures for failure to maintain Starfleet standards would come under the heading of drafting civilians(If they aren't Federation citizens, then Starfleet would have had no right to bring them to justice in the first place, and it becomes press-ganging of foreign nationals too boot).


Which isn't to say that Cain wasn't a bug-fuck crazy power-mad hyper-bitch. It's entirely possible that her relative lack of widespread atrocity is only due to lack of opportunity and targets, as well as having maybe eight months to work, as opposed to seven years for Janeway's bad decsions to be hammered home again and again. But given the choices from an out-of universe perspective, I could be under Cain, and as long as I make it through the first ambush I'll probably be okay, or I can be under Janeway, and face years of constant attrition.

[Vympel]

Cain's a far worse nutter. Her ill-advised attack on what was clearly a Cylon ambush not only resulted in her executing her XO, but also extremely high losses in valuable personnel and equipment (how many Vipers were destroyed and damaged in that attack, again? Something like sixty?! Never mind the Centurion boarding party?) - and for what? For nothing substantial. Irrespective of that "put the enemy on notice" idiocy.

[StarshipTitanic]

Tuvix logic?

Why don't you prove the Borg assimilated a millions after their crushing defeat by 8472 and later the destruction of their Queen and the transwarp node?

You got your head so far up your ass you can't see you're applying a double standard. Hundreds is still more than Janeway, who is really only responsible for her own 150, Olympic Carrier carries a thousand men and there's sixty ships in the rag tag fleet and fifty thousand civilians meaning a range between high hundreds to thousands per ship. Cain ditched fifteen ships worth of civilians. You're giving Cain, a rapist, murderer and a character written as a villian every single slack and Janeway none. Why is that? Does she give you a hard on?

Tuvix logic is saying that murder is ok if you are preserving two other lives, which is what you posit. Therefore, according to you, would the abandonment of a few hundred civilians be ok if it helps over a thousand soldiers keep up the fight?

Can't prove your claim of the civilian numbers? Then don't make it. If you're willing to believe that Cain's death toll could possibly exceed that of the Borg, go ahead.

What part of destroy the galaxy don't you understand, retard? What part of if 8472 had kept fighting the Borg, there would have been a phyrric victory don't you understand?

What part of "In The Flesh" don't you understand? And please prove this Pyhrric victory.

You're a fucking ignorant assface. At the least you could go and watch the shows, or take what I say at face value like people who haven't read the EU take people who know the EU at face value.

You're demanding I accept an appeal to authority? I don't see why I should believe you given your apparent emotional investment in this argument. It colors your credibility, so I'm going to ask for quotes rather than trust your word at face value.

Don't get into an argument when you don't know the facts and haven't even seen the source material.

I have used Memory-Alpha for a basic understanding of the events and I have asked for details where I lacked knowledge. You decided to work yourself up into a recalcitrant, frothing idiot in some pathetic attempt to be an Internet debating badass. Very well, do whatever works for you. But don't get into an argument when you refuse to provide evidence.

That's because Janeway is less of a retard than you. It doesn't matter that they didn't explicitly discuss it, because it's a logical consequence of giving one side the means to fight the other. Have to love the projection.

"Dur, only dumbasses would think that 8472 would run after one bioship was destroyed! Therefore since... er, one bioship was destroyed, Janeway was a dumbass!"

Circular logic galore. Go jerk off to Cain porn.

So you made up the Pyhrric victory conclusion, because I find that more likely than your clairvoyant knowledge of Janeway's motives. There, that wasn't so hard to admit. If your entire argument is going to hinge on "Watch the shows, dumbass!" then please cease arguing until you send me clips or buy me DVDs.

[brianeyci]

Tuvix logic is saying that murder is ok if you are preserving two other lives, which is what you posit. Therefore, according to you, would the abandonment of a few hundred civilians be ok if it helps over a thousand soldiers keep up the fight?

Can't prove your claim of the civilian numbers? Then don't make it. If you're willing to believe that Cain's death toll could possibly exceed that of the Borg, go ahead.

So what is that supposed to be? Just because it's called "Tuvix" logic, it's wrong? How about fucking calling it logic and not trying to poison the well?

It's an unreasonable standard of proof fucking asshole. Might as well ask me to prove the number of crewmen on all Constitution classes is the same as on the Enterprise. What you don't fucking understand, is debating science fiction is based on assumptions. Whoever has made the least assumptions has a superior argument, but that doesn't mean you turn off your brain and say that if there's a ship that looks like another ship in the fleet, the crew complement is different.

Did you do like I asked and looked for the Cain porn?

You're demanding I accept an appeal to authority? I don't see why I should believe you given your apparent emotional investment in this argument. It colors your credibility, so I'm going to ask for quotes rather than trust your word at face value.

Appeal to authority is an appeal to irrelevant authority retard. I do not have to reinvent the wheel for you: you want to rebuttal, it's expected you have seen the source material and if you haven't it's bad form at the least and arrogance at the worst. Star Trek and nBSG isn't one of these obscure, hard to find science fiction and everybody in the thread has accepted Cain is responsible for many deaths, but you nitpick it to hundreds for.. what? Still more, retard.

Emotional investment? Yeah right fucknugget: another one of the "you're too worked up" retards. Well guess what, I can be worked up and think logically. You ever think about that? Want to poison the well a little more dumbass? I already provided proof, so by DR6 I ask you to provide proof of your claim that the Borg assimilated millions after Scorpion. You made the claim, you fucking back it up dumbass. I went to all the trouble to find quotes of common knowledge, and what do you do? Continue to insist and claim emotional instability. Well, fuck you!

I have used Memory-Alpha for a basic understanding of the events and I have asked for details where I lacked knowledge. You decided to work yourself up into a recalcitrant, frothing idiot in some pathetic attempt to be an Internet debating badass. Very well, do whatever works for you. But don't get into an argument when you refuse to provide evidence.

I have linked and quoted transcripts liar. They show that Janeway attempted to negotiate. You have linked nothing. Your nitpick attack is rather stupid, which I have pointed out many times: the crux of the anti-Janeway argument is that she isn't cutting enough corners to get home, and isn't this exactly what she does here? But not good enough for you apparently.

So you made up the Pyhrric victory conclusion, because I find that more likely than your clairvoyant knowledge of Janeway's motives. There, that wasn't so hard to admit. If your entire argument is going to hinge on "Watch the shows, dumbass!" then please cease arguing until you send me clips or buy me DVDs.

There need not be an explicit "plan" you dumb fuck: they give the weapons to the Borg, they are far outside of Borg space, and meanwhile the Borg and 8472 pound each other into oblivion. The fact the Borg and 8472 fight each other is inherent in the plan of giving the Borg the weapon. But you're so fucking stupid you want "spell it out", like Janeway and her officers would be as stupid as you, and moreover accuse me of lying.

By the way, whoever said Cain apologism was disturbing is right. It's rather disturbing on many levels to see apologism for torture, murder, rape and incompetence.

[brianeyci]

StarshipTitanic's claim that if it was only a few hundred civilians abandoned that it would have been okay is bizzare, given Battlestar Pegasus could have easily continued to fight and protected the civilians at the same time. There is no false dilemma of sacrificing all the soldiers or sacrificing the civilians, no matter what the fuck thinks. There's room enough, air enough, space enough, food enough for civilians. And you know how I know?

Battlestar Galactica. No fucking shit .

[Sidewinder]

If we switch commanders, i.e., put Cain in command of the USS Voyager and Janeway in command of the Pegasus, I can easily picture Cain deciding "To hell with the Ocampa," and getting the Voyager and her crew back to the Alpha Quadrant. 'Star Trek: Voyager' ends at the end of the pilot.

Janeway, however, is likely to do something stupid, e.g., try to negotiate a peace treaty with the Cylons, which will get the Pegasus destroyed and the few surviving members of her crew turned into lab rats in Cylon farms.

[Beowulf]

I see alot of people blaming Cain of being suicidal. No shit. The war was lost before it began, and the enemy is, as far as she knows, a bunch of genocidal robots. The best she thinks she can hope for is to take out as much of the enemy as possible before being destroyed.

[Bounty]

The best she thinks she can hope for is to take out as much of the enemy as possible before being destroyed.

Cain had an FTL-capable ship, a viable population, food, fuel, spare parts, ammo, fighters - everything she need to make a run for it and start a new colony. It wouldn't be easy, it would take ridiculous amounts of work and luck, but the Colonies at that point still had a chance of continuing in some form.

So what does Cain do? She decides she'd rather be all emo and shit, kills the people she swore to protect and goes back to slowly killing herself and those around her. What a commander

[StarshipTitanic]

So what is that supposed to be? Just because it's called "Tuvix" logic, it's wrong? How about fucking calling it logic and not trying to poison the well?

It's an unreasonable standard of proof fucking asshole. Might as well ask me to prove the number of crewmen on all Constitution classes is the same as on the Enterprise. What you don't fucking understand, is debating science fiction is based on assumptions. Whoever has made the least assumptions has a superior argument, but that doesn't mean you turn off your brain and say that if there's a ship that looks like another ship in the fleet, the crew complement is different.

Did you do like I asked and looked for the Cain porn?

How about calling it murder?

Anyway, about ship populations:

47000 civilians / 75 ships prior to New Caprica = about 630 people per ship.

The Cloud 9 disaster ended up killing about 5500 people and four ships (one of which, the Colonial Movers type, was very small relative to at Cloud 9). 5500 people / 4 = 1375 people per ship, despite how unlikely a Colonial Movers type could fit such a population.

So wildly disparate numbers suddenly equals "a ship that looks like another ship"? I'm going to go with ship complements are unpredictable.

Appeal to authority is an appeal to irrelevant authority retard. I do not have to reinvent the wheel for you: you want to rebuttal, it's expected you have seen the source material and if you haven't it's bad form at the least and arrogance at the worst. Star Trek and nBSG isn't one of these obscure, hard to find science fiction and everybody in the thread has accepted Cain is responsible for many deaths, but you nitpick it to hundreds for.. what? Still more, retard.

Emotional investment? Yeah right fucknugget: another one of the "you're too worked up" retards. Well guess what, I can be worked up and think logically. You ever think about that? Want to poison the well a little more dumbass? I already provided proof, so by DR6 I ask you to provide proof of your claim that the Borg assimilated millions after Scorpion. You made the claim, you fucking back it up dumbass. I went to all the trouble to find quotes of common knowledge, and what do you do? Continue to insist and claim emotional instability. Well, fuck you!

The fact that you claim to know what happened in Voyager episodes does not, in fact, prove you know what happened in Voyager episodes.

I'm sure that there is someone out there who can work themselves up into a frenzy and think logically, but not you. Prove millions? I cannot. But in "Dark Frontier", the Borg assimilated a race of several hundred thousand individuals. Gosh, brian. That information is "common knowledge" and not from an "obscure, hard to find science fiction" series. Didn't you know lacking encyclopedic knowledge is "bad form" and an example of your "arrogance"? And really, any number higher than Cain's death toll was what I wanted. It seems to be the metric you use to measure evil.

I have linked and quoted transcripts liar. They show that Janeway attempted to negotiate. You have linked nothing. Your nitpick attack is rather stupid, which I have pointed out many times: the crux of the anti-Janeway argument is that she isn't cutting enough corners to get home, and isn't this exactly what she does here? But not good enough for you apparently.

How dare you call me a liar when you have not backed up your Pyhrric victory motive claim? Yes, you have linked a transcript with one quote and told me to go fetch another bit. How about I just link www.memory-alpha.org and tell you all my proof is in there? Sorry, brian, but you need to actually hand me evidence on a silver platter like I've been gracious enough to do for you.

Please show me what claims I have made and not provided evidence for as of this post, please, and I will be happy to rectify any such oversight.

There need not be an explicit "plan" you dumb fuck:

I'm not interested in what you wish you said, brian, only what you did say:

3. The plan was the Borg would continue to fight the 8472, and they would fight each other until both sides were exhausted in a phyrric victory.

Just concede that there was no plan, that you don't know what Janeway was thinking, and that she willfully aided an enemy of the Federation and a threat to nearly all known sapient life in the galaxy. That's all, brian. It's as simple as that.

StarshipTitanic's claim that if it was only a few hundred civilians abandoned that it would have been okay is bizzare, given Battlestar Pegasus could have easily continued to fight and protected the civilians at the same time.

Prove she abandoned "thousands" of civilians, please. For all I know there may have been a few hundred aboard those ships, which is fewer than the Pegasus's crew. If there were fewer civilians, by your Tuvix logic she made the right call.

I was interpreting the morality of murder through your standard ("Tuvix, by the way, which was saving two people's lives for one."), not my own. I never stated what I thought about abandoning civilians, but I will say now that I feel it wasn't the right choice as Adama demonstrated. Please apologize to me for misrepresenting my position on the issue.

[Morilore]

What part of "In The Flesh" don't you understand? And please prove this Pyhrric victory.

Obviously you lack the intelligence to comprehend the notion of basic linear time. Based on all the information Janeway had available to her at the time, Species 8472 was a genocidal race of mad-dog killers hell-bent on exterminating all sentient life in the galaxy. This shit is on the fucking main site's Star Trek database, you asshole.

[brianeyci]

What phyrric victory claim you fucking brain damage? You semantic whored "the plan" to a specific, explicit spelt out plan like Trektards with their spell it out for everything! I even said later in the fucking post, none of it needs to be spelt out, and you come back at me and say there was an explicit plan like a retard.

You're a fucking douchebag StarshipTitanic. It's obvious to anybody in a total war you give one side an atom bomb they are going to annihilate each other to the bone. 8472 and the Borg were intent on destroying each other, and I give one side the means to fight back and they will fight until serious casualties emerge. That didn't happen because of unknown variables Janeway had no way of knowing, but you're so fucking stupid you want to criticize her for not seeing the future.

You're a fucking liar and apply double standards StarshipTitanic. Where are your fucking numbers to back up the millions of assimilated after the Scorpion? I am conceding nothing to you Cain wanker. Did you find the Cain porn yet?

Please show me what claims I have made and not provided evidence for as of this post, please

You're a backpedaling piece of shit. You claimed this:

One murderer and accessory to genocide getting raped < Millions assimilated by the Borg

I'm still waiting for the millions asshole. By the way 18-Til-I-Die dealt with this already: the Borg assimilate, the Borg bear ethical responsibility. You make it sound as if Janebitch ordered the assimilations. By the way, what does this have to do with whether you're a competent commanding officer or not? This has turned into a general Janeway bashing thread, instead of discussing real points like: treason, shooting your own men, getting your own men killed, betraying your oath, getting your own citizens killed. But you had to turn this into a Janeway bashing thread: nevermind that Kirk plenty of times gave away technology and calling him "treasonous" for that is ridiculous given the Prime Directive is open to interpretation completely.

Accessory to genocide? Getting raped? For what? Did Gina participate in the nuking of the Thirteen Colonies? She was a soldier in a fucking war, and you make it sound like she was a concentration camp guard. Did Cain need to order her rape? Is rape even a useful interrogation technique? How far up your ass is that head of yours?

Meanwhile, you decide to "go easy" on Cain and assume she killed not too many people. Here's a newsflash: it doesn't fucking matter if she didn't kill not too many people! Those were her fucking citizens. The "Tuvix logic" doesn't fucking apply, because in that case it really was Tuvix or Tuvok + Neelix, while with the civilians Cain abandoned and stranded by stripping their FTL drives, there was no dilemma and she could have taken them! You're so fucking dumb you need everything spelt out for you, but apparently that's what you wanted creating this thread. It's obvious to anybody with a brain that certain lines are not crossed, including rape, murder, killing and betraying your own citizens, but you couldn't figure it out and wanted this thread for what, to bash Janeway?

Are you a Republitard?