What if the U.S. institutionalized the Ten Commandments?

Clone Sergeant · Post by **Clone Sergeant** » 2003-01-18 02:36am

A Demogogue's Decalogue Monologue
Entered by The Facer 1/15/2003 6:38:08 PM

Future US Supreme Court Chief Justice Antonin Scalia continued his crusade against the separation of church and state, with some public comments aimed at reminding Americans that their government --- yes, the one that pays him a hefty sum for the rest of his life --- is a godless machine deserving a final solution. Sigh.

Late last year, Ohio Representative Rob Portman fought to ensure the legality of placing the Judeo- Christian Decalogue on public high school grounds, saying, "I believe the Ten Commandments are not so much a symbol of a specific religion, but rather constitute the moral principles on which many religions are based. They are a very big part of who we are as a nation." Even "liberal media" mouthpiece Slate.com recently ran a smarmy slideshow "proving" that the courts' decisions on how to determine the constitutionality of commandment placement is a hopeless, subjective mess.

As we have with everything else, TheFacer.Net has the answer. And it's really, really simple.

Require that any public facility that wants to post the Ten Commandments must follow the Ten Commandments. No exceptions.

Here's what we could expect if the Ten Godblurbs were officially institutionalized:

"You shall have no other gods but me." Catholic institutions opting to post the Decalogue may have to very quickly take down all those saint statues. In fact, the whole trinity baloney conjured up by at Nicea may need to be scrapped. One God. Not two, not fifty, one. You Hindus can go to Hell.
"You shall not take the name of your Lord in vain." Politicians working near the Ten Commandments had better watch their language! Sure, the Bushes can call Leslie Stahl a "bitch," Strom Thurmon can call blacks "niggers," and Joe Lieberman can call Bill Clinton a "whoring suckass puckerhole," but none of them had better say "Goddamned" or "Jesus Christ!"
"You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy." Any church, public building, or other facility has to make two minor changes to their lifestyle. First, switch the Sabbath day back to Saturday where it belongs (celebrating it on Sunday is not only pagan, but heretical), and second, make sure no one works on Saturday. Yep, you zealous Christians are going to have to stop making your McDonald's employees work on Saturday. In fact, technically, EVERYTHING ON THE PLANET should be closed on Saturday. Airports, restaurants, malls, you name it. See what that does for the economy.
"Honor your father and mother." Oh, crap! Gonna have to repeal all those bills against social security and medicare cuts, and possibly convert some of the military budget into geriatric healthcare funding! Aw, heck, we don't need the military anyway, what with our next Commandment...
"You shall not kill." Courthouses intending on displaying the Big Ten are going to have to get used to the fact that capital punishment is now illegal according to God's Law. No more death penalty, gang. That goes for the Supremes, too. Hey, but arch righties can relax a bit... abortion will be illegal, too!
"You shall not commit adultery." Oh, wouldn't we all like to see this posted above the White House or Congress! Bill, Newt and the gang would be specifically prohibited from sleeping with interns!
"You shall not steal." Imagine the Internal Revenue Service with this Holy Decree hung on its walls! The US Treasury would be broke within a week. And any courthouse boasting the Decalogue as decoration would have to abandon the practice of allowing criminals to plea bargain to lesser offenses, such as theft; under God's law, it's a sin! I think it would be downright righteous to have this grace the hallways of the CIA, FBI, DEA and BATF, too. I'll let you figure out why.
"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." Candidates and pundits so anxious for the federal adoption of the Ten Commandments as law might want to think twice when lying becomes a punishable crime. Voters might like the result, however: completely falsehood-free political ads! Willie Horton? No way, Jorge, that kind of slimeballing is illegal now! Ann Coulter? Imprisoned for slander! (Double entendre intended.)
"You shall not covet your neighbor's goods. You shall not covet your neighbour's house. You shall not covet your neighbour's wife, nor anything that is your neighbour's." I guess we'd better call off our oil drilling projects, gang, with this final double-bill from Yahweh hanging in Congress. And you tighty-whitey college students had better stop coveting those juicy Affirmative Action college placements!

Still think institutionalizing the Ten Commandments is a good idea?

I thought this was very interesting. Comments?[/url]

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-01-18 02:51am

Wellll, now! I would never have thought it, but most of that makes sense.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-18 04:12am

I would leave the country.

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2003-01-18 04:21am

Just a small poke: Which Ten Commandments? There are at least 3 different versions that I know of.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-01-18 04:47am

There's such a thing as taking atheism too far, and this is it.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-01-18 05:59am

Yep, I would resign from the Military and move to Canadia as well if they managed to get this passed

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-18 07:32am

Meh, america would probably destroy itself since a black hole of stupidity would form in washington where such a massive concentration of stupid was gathered to pass the law.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-01-18 09:03am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:There's such a thing as taking atheism too far, and this is it.

While your at it why not just say that you can take reason and rationalism too far?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-01-18 09:19am

Four of the Ten Commands Violate the first Admendment
Plus the one we would have to lock up roughly 1/5 of the US popluation which would need another 1/5 to guard an maintaine them and I'm think the encomey go downhill rather fast

Or is that all fine with you Duchess?

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-18 09:23am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:There's such a thing as taking atheism too far, and this is it.

What is?

Moving out of the country if it sets up a load of moronic and idiotic piece of shit laws?

No it's taking stupidity too far, if they'd ever do that they can go nuke themselves.

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » 2003-01-18 09:56am

Americans would never allow such an infringement on the Constitution, although there are far worse infringements that I would worry about before the Ten Commandments....

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-01-18 11:09am

Sir Sirius wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:There's such a thing as taking atheism too far, and this is it.
While your at it why not just say that you can take reason and rationalism too far?

You can, actually. Humans are creatures of the animal as well as the Reason, and to totally annihilate the animal influence on how we function - IE, emotions - Would be to make for a very depressing existance.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-01-18 11:17am

Mr Bean wrote:Four of the Ten Commands Violate the first Admendment
Plus the one we would have to lock up roughly 1/5 of the US popluation which would need another 1/5 to guard an maintaine them and I'm think the encomey go downhill rather fast

Or is that all fine with you Duchess?

No, I'm saying this example is. It's rather senseless to think that the evidences of religion currently in the USA are going to lead to some kind of regression into an Iranian-style Ayatollah Republic.

Most Western and Christian States were considerably more religious than the USA at one time, and now are far less - And I'm speaking in the industrial era, not pre-industrial. Even in the 19th century religion was still a considerable factor on the Continent.

The USA isn't going to go in reverse and its ludicrous for atheists to think it might. That's all I'm saying. No western country has before and I think the concern over the deeper spread of religion in this country, and its longer persistance, is really just a facet of anti-americanism.

The Pledge of Allegiance, references to God by the Presidence, the Ten Commandments in schools? Big Deal! I don't care; it's just tradition, not some kind of life-or-death matter. YEC is something to worry about, not those.

I'm saying that people on this board and elsewhere seem to get worked up over absolutely nothing.

Oh, btw, here's the text of the First Amendment:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" Or, in other words, that Congress is forbidden from passing legislation regarding the affairs of religious organizations, or prohibiting the free exercise of religious faith.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-01-18 12:22pm

But in putting the ten commandments on schol grounds they are forming a state religion, which is a law, concerning religion, and as such, illegal

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-01-18 12:40pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:But in putting the ten commandments on schol grounds they are forming a state religion, which is a law, concerning religion, and as such, illegal

No, it isn't. It is putting the Ten Commandments on school grounds. It's an historical document of interest, nothing more, nothing less.

Besides, several points:

1. Public schools are organized under local school boards. The First Amendment actually only forbids the Federal Congress from establishing such laws.

2. A law, is just that. Legislation passed by Congress and enacted into law by the President. A piece of paper hung on a wall somewhere is not law unless it is made into one by constitutional process.

Obviously, a broader interpetation of the First Amendment has been taken over time, which is good. But that doesn't necessarily preclude such actions, nor most likely did the original meaning.

The original meaning was clearly to provide for all religions to be practiced freely in the United States without the government regulating them in any fashion, or establishing one as superiour over the others, or persecuting them.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-01-18 01:11pm

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:But in putting the ten commandments on schol grounds they are forming a state religion, which is a law, concerning religion, and as such, illegal
No, it isn't. It is putting the Ten Commandments on school grounds. It's an historical document of interest, nothing more, nothing less.

Besides, several points:

1. Public schools are organized under local school boards. The First Amendment actually only forbids the Federal Congress from establishing such laws.

2. A law, is just that. Legislation passed by Congress and enacted into law by the President. A piece of paper hung on a wall somewhere is not law unless it is made into one by constitutional process.

Obviously, a broader interpetation of the First Amendment has been taken over time, which is good. But that doesn't necessarily preclude such actions, nor most likely did the original meaning.

The original meaning was clearly to provide for all religions to be practiced freely in the United States without the government regulating them in any fashion, or establishing one as superiour over the others, or persecuting them.

Goodness, do my eyes deceive me or does someone besides myself actually understand the plain English of the First Amendment?

Oh, the whole article is just one giant slippery slope fallacy.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-01-18 02:07pm

The original meaning was clearly to provide for all religions to be practiced freely in the United States without the government regulating them in any fashion, or establishing one as superiour over the others, or persecuting them.

AAnd institutionalizing the ten commandments would be just that, the government taking judeo-chrisianity over other religions. It would be forming a state religion, which is a law respecting an establishment of religion. It is inherently taking one religion over the other, and as such persecuting the people that do not practice that religion.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-01-18 02:25pm

Ok..

No, it isn't. It is putting the Ten Commandments on school grounds. It's an historical document of interest, nothing more, nothing less.

By that reasoning so can the entire bible!

Of prehaps the parts about
"Thou shaln't not have any other gods before me" does not seem like a tab bit of religious discrimination Zeon?

The point is of the above aritcule is making the Judeo-Christian Ten Commandments INTO LAW. Oh and as for your point on the fact that only the Feudal Goverment is forbidden but can I kindly point out we have a nice long bloody war over who's law Supercedes who and in the end with quite a few million Dead it was decided that FEDURAL Law Supercedes State Laws in that little Skirmish called "The Civil War"

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-01-18 03:04pm

Mr Bean wrote:Ok..

No, it isn't. It is putting the Ten Commandments on school grounds. It's an historical document of interest, nothing more, nothing less.
By that reasoning so can the entire bible!

Of prehaps the parts about
"Thou shaln't not have any other gods before me" does not seem like a tab bit of religious discrimination Zeon?

The point is of the above aritcule is making the Judeo-Christian Ten Commandments INTO LAW. Oh and as for your point on the fact that only the Feudal Goverment is forbidden but can I kindly point out we have a nice long bloody war over who's law Supercedes who and in the end with quite a few million Dead it was decided that FEDURAL Law Supercedes State Laws in that little Skirmish called "The Civil War"

A few million dead? You have a talent for hyperbole, methinks.

The Civil War did not remove all limitations on federal power built into the Constitution, nor did it make the states into little more than vassals of the federal government (in theory, at least). Federal law may be ultimately superior to state law in its respective domain, but that doesn't mean the federal government can act outside its constitutionally-limited bounds (it does anyway, but that's not the point).

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-01-18 03:07pm

Yes I am in favor in posting the Ten Commandments in public buildings, including schools. I only request though that the Nine Satanic Statements be placed along side them with the same prominance.

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2003-01-18 03:21pm

Y'know, considering how easy it is to remember to not lie, cheat, steal, kill, or defame your god, I don't see how a plaque is going to help those who can't/won't.

Obviously, logical reasoing doesn't require being devoid of emotions, it's just that you shouldn't make laws based on if some people feel wishy-washy or fuzzy inside from hearing sugar-coated fallacies. Why the heck would anyone think that we should? It's just silly and, well, irrational.

Then again, considering how much politicians and the advertising industry depend on being able to pull our heartstrings or appeal to our needs for security or acceptance, the economy might apart under that extreme, as well.

So Duchess, if you want to contribute to the well-being of our society in that way, be my guest.

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2003-01-18 03:29pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:Yes I am in favor in posting the Ten Commandments in public buildings, including schools. I only request though that the Nine Satanic Statements be placed along side them with the same prominance.

I'd agree on that point. I'd prefer all of them up to only one or even two. But make sure it's everything, including $cientology, Stuff from the Khaballa, extremest Islamic mantra, and Nihilistic philosophical quotes like "death is our only act of freedom in the meaningless lie of existence." Let the kids know just how screwed up it all is.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-18 03:33pm

Some of what he says is just plain wrong, so I'll throw out the interpretations I've been taught in theological class.

"You shall have no other gods but me." Catholic institutions opting to post the Decalogue may have to very quickly take down all those saint statues. In fact, the whole trinity baloney conjured up by at Nicea may need to be scrapped. One God. Not two, not fifty, one. You Hindus can go to Hell.

Obviously the reporter doesn't understand the doctrine of the trinity. God is one, the trinity is a means of explaining how Father, Son, and Holy Spirit work as one and in different ways. Also, the Catholics don't worship saints. According to Catholic friends of mine and Catholic doctrine I've read, they ask the saint to aid their prayer in being heard by God.

"You shall not take the name of your Lord in vain." Politicians working near the Ten Commandments had better watch their language! Sure, the Bushes can call Leslie Stahl a "bitch," Strom Thurmon can call blacks "niggers," and Joe Lieberman can call Bill Clinton a "whoring suckass puckerhole," but none of them had better say "Goddamned" or "Jesus Christ!"

Actually, he's right on this one. Of course, the others are all rude and shouldn't be said anyway, but that's beside the point (although the perjury commandment would cover some of them)
.

"You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy." Any church, public building, or other facility has to make two minor changes to their lifestyle. First, switch the Sabbath day back to Saturday where it belongs (celebrating it on Sunday is not only pagan, but heretical)

*Sigh* So now atheists are admitting the Creationist standpoint that God worked six days and rested from Friday evening to Saturday evening? The Sabbath day was set by tradition, not doctrine. The Christian worship on Sunday began because the original Christians celebrated the Jewish sabbath and held studies of the NT on Sunday morning before going to work. When they were forcibly ejected from the synagogues somewhere around 70 CE, they merely moved their worship to their time of study in order to keep the Jews from persecuting them further than had already occurred.

second, make sure no one works on Saturday. Yep, you zealous Christians are going to have to stop making your McDonald's employees work on Saturday. In fact, technically, EVERYTHING ON THE PLANET should be closed on Saturday. Airports, restaurants, malls, you name it. See what that does for the economy.

That depends on how strictly you interpret the law. The Talmud does have large numbers of explanatory laws on exactly what constitutes work, but those are rabbinical commands, not Scripture. The application of holy is very debatable.

"Honor your father and mother." Oh, crap! Gonna have to repeal all those bills against social security and medicare cuts, and possibly convert some of the military budget into geriatric healthcare funding! Aw, heck, we don't need the military anyway, what with our next Commandment...

Wrong. If that commandment were followed, medicare and social security would be unnecessary because children would take care of their elderly parents rather than expecting the government to take care of everything. I realize this could be problematic in some cases, so I wouldn't expect this to actually be applied, but rather that social security and medicare be for those who either have no children to support them or those whose children cannot afford to take care of them.

"You shall not kill." Courthouses intending on displaying the Big Ten are going to have to get used to the fact that capital punishment is now illegal according to God's Law. No more death penalty, gang. That goes for the Supremes, too. Hey, but arch righties can relax a bit... abortion will be illegal, too!

Now THAT'S a shitty translation. The Hebrew word used is murder, not kill. Capital punishment is allowed by God's Law (cf. Num 35:16, the infamous "avenger of blood"). Likewise, Just War theory is accepted by most branches of Christianity, allowing for wars of self-defence or against absolutely morally corrupt societies (Nazi Germany is the last example I can recall that was considered to be a Just War or Holy War by some churches).

"You shall not commit adultery." Oh, wouldn't we all like to see this posted above the White House or Congress! Bill, Newt and the gang would be specifically prohibited from sleeping with interns!

Only if married. Unmarried people having sex is not adultery under the Biblical definition.

"You shall not steal." Imagine the Internal Revenue Service with this Holy Decree hung on its walls! The US Treasury would be broke within a week. And any courthouse boasting the Decalogue as decoration would have to abandon the practice of allowing criminals to plea bargain to lesser offenses, such as theft; under God's law, it's a sin! I think it would be downright righteous to have this grace the hallways of the CIA, FBI, DEA and BATF, too. I'll let you figure out why.

Espionage and taxation are allowed in the OT. Taxation occurs in Exodus 11, and espionage in Numbers 13. Both were commanded by God and carried out by Moses. There is no higher authority in the OT than these two figures (specifically God, but Moses is highest of mortals in terms of respect and authority).

"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." Candidates and pundits so anxious for the federal adoption of the Ten Commandments as law might want to think twice when lying becomes a punishable crime. Voters might like the result, however: completely falsehood-free political ads! Willie Horton? No way, Jorge, that kind of slimeballing is illegal now! Ann Coulter? Imprisoned for slander! (Double entendre intended.)

Perjury's already illegal. As I've said in other SLAM threads, truth must be a core value of any functioning society. I don't believe this would work, but I do try to apply it to my own life.

"You shall not covet your neighbor's goods. You shall not covet your neighbour's house. You shall not covet your neighbour's wife, nor anything that is your neighbour's." I guess we'd better call off our oil drilling projects, gang, with this final double-bill from Yahweh hanging in Congress. And you tighty-whitey college students had better stop coveting those juicy Affirmative Action college placements!

Normal commerce is allowable, contrary to this reporter's belief. Coveting means to want without being willing to sacrifice for. Going to war with Iraq just to get oil would be coveting, since it would not truly be sacrificing (since it would cause harm to Iraq, it would slip out of that category). And affirmative action is merely racism under another name anyway, so I won't even begin discussing that.

So what do we have? ONE properly interpreted Word (the Hebrew is the Ten Words, rather than Ten Commandments), and nine either wrong or partially correct. I agree that the Ten should be separate from secular law. The church has no place in determining the morality of the unchurched, just as the government has no place in dictating the religious practices of the people (within reason; human sacrifice falls outside of reason IMHO). However, the Ten do form part of the basis for most secular law, and the reporter's lack of knowledge of this fact shows either considerable ignorance or considerable bias.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-01-18 03:41pm

I am unsure whether that article is virulently antitheistic, just stupid, satirical, or an attempt at serious commentary.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2003-01-18 03:47pm

I'm sure that article went a bit too far, but one thing would be for sure: We could kiss religous freedom goodbye.

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What if the U.S. institutionalized the Ten Commandments?

What if the U.S. institutionalized the Ten Commandments?

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