Religious Freedom in (US) Military Questioned

[Flagg]

Link

Religious Freedom in Military Questioned

By JOHN MILBURN
The Associated Press
Tuesday, December 18, 2007; 8:36 PM

TOPEKA, Kan. -- A foundation that has sued the military alleging widespread violations of religious freedom said Tuesday that it has evidence showing that soldiers are pressured to adopt fundamentalist Christian beliefs.

The photos and videos of religious materials and activities are part of a lawsuit filed by the Military Religious Freedom Foundation and Army Spc. Jeremy Hall, an atheist, against Maj. Freddy J. Welborn and Defense Secretary Robert Gates.

The material was gathered from Fort Riley in Kansas, the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, Colo., and Fort Jackson, S.C.

Examples at Fort Riley, where Hall is stationed, included a display outside his military police battalion's office with a quote from conservative writer Ann Coulter saying, "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."

Another photo from Fort Riley shows the book "A Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam" for sale at the post exchange.

"These astonishing and saddening evidence which our foundation is making public today only further buttress our lawsuit," said Mike Weinstein, an attorney in Albuquerque, N.M., and president of the foundation, who graduated from the Air Force Academy in 1977.

Fort Riley spokesman Maj. Nathan Bond said the matter was being referred to post commanders for investigation. He said it is the Army's policy to accommodate all religious beliefs to the extent that they don't conflict with military missions.

"We do take this seriously," he said. If they are true, he added, they "do not seem in line with the Army values of respect."

The lawsuit filed in federal court in Kansas City, Kan., in September alleges that Welborn threatened to file military charges against Hall and to block his re-enlistment for trying to hold a meeting of atheists and non-Christians in Iraq.

Hall is with the 97th Military Police Battalion out of Fort Riley. He was serving his second tour in Iraq and has since returned to the U.S.

Weinstein said materials for a Bible studies course from Military Ministry, part of Campus Crusade for Christ International, teach soldiers that the U.S. military and government are instruments to spread the word of God. The material was found at Fort Jackson, S.C., he said.

A spokeswoman for Campus Crusade for Christ said ministry officials hadn't had a chance to review the evidence and declined to comment.

The lawsuit also alleges that Gates permits a military culture in which officers are encouraged to pressure soldiers to adopt and espouse fundamentalist Christian beliefs, and allows a culture that sanctions activities by Christian organizations.

It also says the military permits proselytizing by soldiers, tolerates anti-Semitism and the placing of religious symbols on military equipment, and allows the use of military e-mail accounts to send religious rhetoric.

The Pentagon has said that the military values and respects religious freedoms but that accommodating religious practices should not interfere with unit cohesion, readiness, standards or discipline.

Weinstein has previously sued the Air Force for acts he said illegally imposed Christianity on its students at the academy. A federal judge threw out that lawsuit in 2006.

___

On the Net:

Military Religious Freedom Foundation: http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org

I'm not surprised, but I found that bolded part incredibly disturbing. I knew there were elements of Christian Fundamentalism within the US Military, but I wasn't aware to what extent they were tolerated, and apparently running things.

[K. A. Pital]

"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."

That's... spartan spirit for ya.

I'm compelled to ask the fundie idiots "How well is conversion going in Iraq", but that'd be too much for their hate-filled, puny brains.

[Haruko]

I'm not surprised, but I found that bolded part incredibly disturbing. I knew there were elements of Christian Fundamentalism within the US Military, but I wasn't aware to what extent they were tolerated, and apparently running things.

You should read Weinstein's With God On Our Side.

[Lagmonster]

I admit to knowing exceptionally little about matters military, but I never quite got the contradiction in terms between charging men up to violence while reminding them to be civil. Is this the 'gentleman soldier' I've heard about?

[Alex Moon]

I'm guessing that this soldier skipped IG, EO, his chain of command...

In other words, he was looking for a way to get his name in the paper.

[Lonestar]

I'm guessing that this soldier skipped IG, EO, his chain of command...

In other words, he was looking for a way to get his name in the paper.

This was the guy who was on deployment and verbally assaulted by a Major that crashed his "Atheist Church"(In Texas I believe they are called "Churches of Free Thought" or something...mimicking the social functions of church without the religiousity).

And the Chain of Command CAN fail you Alex. The soldier in question may have not seen in perceptable movement on his greviences(and if you tell me there are not Officers who file them into the circular file cabinet I'll call you a Goddamn liar) and felt compelled to get something, anything, done. To quote my Sea Daddy:

If shit ain't happening, and your congressional rep isn't working, two words: Local Media.

[Flagg]

I'm guessing that this soldier skipped IG, EO, his chain of command...

In other words, he was looking for a way to get his name in the paper.

And the fine tradition of blaming the victim continues.

"Hey, that guy just being a media whore! Let's argue about that, instead of the real issue!"

[Sidewinder]

And the Chain of Command CAN fail you Alex.

I know this from personal experience. The senior NCOs don't seem to give a damn about the lower enlisted's grievances, unless they threaten to commit acts of terrorism. (In my case, threatening to set off terror bombs was the only way to get the sergeants to stop joking about "balling me up" or committing other forms of hazing.)

[brianeyci]

I admit to knowing exceptionally little about matters military, but I never quite got the contradiction in terms between charging men up to violence while reminding them to be civil. Is this the 'gentleman soldier' I've heard about?

I don't really know much about military matters either, but I imagine that's supposed to be the difference between officers and grunts in a competent military.

The officers are supposed to be trained for leadership and planning, and are supposed to rein in the grunts when they get too rowdy. That's why the ANA will get better the longer the American military is there: they're training thousands of Second Lieutenants, whose training the insurgents can't match.

Then again people on this forum say that anybody all the way to Lt. Colonel work directly with the troops so the difference might be artificial. It shouldn't be: the army shouldn't be used for long term occupation but be kept in camps far from cities ideally, and special police and MP's used for policing. That didn't happen in Iraq, and was impossible, so they shouldn't have even tried invasion in the first place.

Flooding a city with normal troops is just asking for atrocities, and the bad part is it only takes one incident and the population can turn against you, so either you need an elite Republican Guard like Napolean who are all gentlemen, or you don't occupy cities for any length of time at all.

[Lonestar]

I know this from personal experience. The senior NCOs don't seem to give a damn about the lower enlisted's grievances, unless they threaten to commit acts of terrorism. (In my case, threatening to set off terror bombs was the only way to get the sergeants to stop joking about "balling me up" or committing other forms of hazing.)

Okay, when YOU say stuff like that it doesn't support the argument dude.

I was referring more to a culture of (1)"Oh he's just a whiner"(and there are a lot of whiners) and/or (2)"I don't think this is worth getting worked up over, so why should he?". There aren't a whole lot of powerful groups out there that have convinced the military to take atheist problems seriously. Unlike, say, women's rights groups.

[Sidewinder]

I was referring more to a culture of (1)"Oh he's just a whiner"(and there are a lot of whiners) and/or (2)"I don't think this is worth getting worked up over, so why should he?". There aren't a whole lot of powerful groups out there that have convinced the military to take atheist problems seriously. Unlike, say, women's rights groups.

Conceded.

[Hawkwings]

We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.

That's not even Christianity, that's just warmongering. I very much doubt that this was some sort of official placard or whatever official signs they use.

A Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam

This sounds like something an atheist would write, not a Christian. Then again, the author also wrote a book called "Why Islam is not a religion of peace, and Christianity is" so nevermind. In any case, the fact that the book is available does mean that the military is pushing it.

Weinstein said materials for a Bible studies course from Military Ministry, part of Campus Crusade for Christ International, teach soldiers that the U.S. military and government are instruments to spread the word of God.

In a Bible Studies class. It's not that much of a leap to say that they are going to apply religious images found in the bible to what the soldiers are doing now. Would this kind of course be optional, or required?

The lawsuit also alleges that Gates permits a military culture in which officers are encouraged to pressure soldiers to adopt and espouse fundamentalist Christian beliefs, and allows a culture that sanctions activities by Christian organizations.

Which beliefs? If it's something like loving your brothers, doing your duty to your leaders, etc, what's wrong with that? If it's "Christ is right! Whip your slaves daily, and your wives too!" then that is a problem.

It also says the military permits proselytizing by soldiers, tolerates anti-Semitism and the placing of religious symbols on military equipment, and allows the use of military e-mail accounts to send religious rhetoric.

Nothing wrong with praying. And jokes about jews (which is most likely what this anti-semitism is) are hardly uncommon. Religous symbols on military equipment, like... what, exactly? I doubt they stamp crosses on M-16s now. Maybe they're stickers on their humvee or something? And what's wrong with using your email account to tell others about your beliefs?

[Morilore]

We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.

That's not even Christianity, that's just warmongering. I very much doubt that this was some sort of official placard or whatever official signs they use.

If "convert to Christianity" is something that the military does to enemies, and you're an atheist soldier and you have a history of your colleagues trying to convert you to Christianity, than that makes you...

Weinstein said materials for a Bible studies course from Military Ministry, part of Campus Crusade for Christ International, teach soldiers that the U.S. military and government are instruments to spread the word of God.

In a Bible Studies class. It's not that much of a leap to say that they are going to apply religious images found in the bible to what the soldiers are doing now. Would this kind of course be optional, or required?

The phrase "U.S. military and government are instruments to spread the word of God" is the scariest goddamn thing I have ever heard and any class that teaches it to fucking soldiers should be stomped out of existence regardless of whether it's optional or not.

The lawsuit also alleges that Gates permits a military culture in which officers are encouraged to pressure soldiers to adopt and espouse fundamentalist Christian beliefs, and allows a culture that sanctions activities by Christian organizations.

Which beliefs? If it's something like loving your brothers, doing your duty to your leaders, etc, what's wrong with that? If it's "Christ is right! Whip your slaves daily, and your wives too!" then that is a problem.

pressure soldiers to adopt and espouse fundamentalist Christian beliefs

fundamentalist Christian beliefs

fundamentalist beliefs

funda-fucking-mentalist

It also says the military permits proselytizing by soldiers, tolerates anti-Semitism and the placing of religious symbols on military equipment, and allows the use of military e-mail accounts to send religious rhetoric.

Nothing wrong with praying. And jokes about jews (which is most likely what this anti-semitism is) are hardly uncommon. Religous symbols on military equipment, like... what, exactly? I doubt they stamp crosses on M-16s now. Maybe they're stickers on their humvee or something? And what's wrong with using your email account to tell others about your beliefs?

It's not your email, it's the military's email.

[FSTargetDrone]

"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."

That's... spartan spirit for ya.

Oh, I completely support such a sentiment, as long as Coulter and the rest are at the front lines, leading the charge themselves.

Over the top, Annie!

[General Zod]

That's not even Christianity, that's just warmongering. I very much doubt that this was some sort of official placard or whatever official signs they use.

You should re-read the bits in the Bible where God commands wholesale genocide and mass-murder.

This sounds like something an atheist would write, not a Christian. Then again, the author also wrote a book called "Why Islam is not a religion of peace, and Christianity is" so nevermind. In any case, the fact that the book is available does mean that the military is pushing it.

Ever hear of Jack Chick?

Which beliefs? If it's something like loving your brothers, doing your duty to your leaders, etc, what's wrong with that? If it's "Christ is right! Whip your slaves daily, and your wives too!" then that is a problem.

You haven't had very many dealings with fundie assholes have you?

It also says the military permits proselytizing by soldiers, tolerates anti-Semitism and the placing of religious symbols on military equipment, and allows the use of military e-mail accounts to send religious rhetoric.

Nothing wrong with praying.

Proselytizing does not equal praying. It's not their job to be a fucking preacher.

And jokes about jews (which is most likely what this anti-semitism is) are hardly uncommon.

So racist attitudes are a-okay as long as they're common?

Religous symbols on military equipment, like... what, exactly? I doubt they stamp crosses on M-16s now. Maybe they're stickers on their humvee or something? And what's wrong with using your email account to tell others about your beliefs?

Because the workplace is not somewhere to spread the message of whatever sky pixie you happen to believe in numbnuts.

[Darth Wong]

Well, we know that the Army has lowered its recruiting standards to allow people to join even if they're borderline retards. I suppose that an increase in fundamentalist bullshit is a natural outgrowth of that trend.

[Illuminatus Primus]

If you ever doubt there's a full-fledged propaganda apparatus in the U.S., check out the "Politically Incorrect Guide to..." series. Everyone is an utter gutter-brain far-right mouthpiece. The guide to science is a screed attributing everything good in science to religious influence and blaming everything bad on dogmatic secularism and atheist plots. One can imagine the guide to "Darwinism" (note calculated use of the -ism, suggesting Darwinism is a belief system, not a valid scientific theory).

[K. A. Pital]

The guide to science is a screed attributing everything good in science to religious influence and blaming everything bad on dogmatic secularism and atheist plots. One can imagine the guide to "Darwinism" (note calculated use of the -ism, suggesting Darwinism is a belief system, not a valid scientific theory).

"Guide"? Who the fuck buys such things? How massive are print runs? I think establishing print runs of this bullshit could be helpful in determining the scale of human idiocy in the United States. Seriously.

[Darth Wong]

The guide to science is a screed attributing everything good in science to religious influence and blaming everything bad on dogmatic secularism and atheist plots. One can imagine the guide to "Darwinism" (note calculated use of the -ism, suggesting Darwinism is a belief system, not a valid scientific theory).

"Guide"? Who the fuck buys such things? How massive are print runs? I think establishing print runs of this bullshit could be helpful in determining the scale of human idiocy in the United States. Seriously.

There's a large market in the US for dumbed-down mass-market versions of complicated things, like "The Dummy's Guide to Philosophy" (think about what a stupid idea that is: a guide to thought, for people who don't like to think). And yes, that's a real title. I browsed one at a bookstore, and the section on God started by saying that no philosopher has ever been able to refute the ontological proof of God's existence

[Aaron]

Well, we know that the Army has lowered its recruiting standards to allow people to join even if they're borderline retards. I suppose that an increase in fundamentalist bullshit is a natural outgrowth of that trend.

It seems that this is a problem that originates before the lowered standards. Note that in every case we see the problem starts with a senior officer or senior NCO shitting on the athiests. The standards were lowered about a year ago, so there hasn't been enough time for these guys to obtain any meaningful rank. For example if an officer joined a year ago he'd still be in training. And an enlisted soldier wouldn't have even made it past Private.

I have no doubt that there are large numbers of religious nutters in the US Military but if a junior NCO comes onto you about your religious beliefs your likely to ignore it. If the RSM does it, that's another matter. Ditto if a LT does it, no one pays attention to them because their idiots. If a Major or above does it, then you pay attention.

And to echo Lonestar, if your not getting anything from your CoC then take it to the media. File 13 is a powerful and common tool.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I'm guessing that this soldier skipped IG, EO, his chain of command...

In other words, he was looking for a way to get his name in the paper.

Either that or the chain of command gave him the shaft like they so often do.

[Hawkwings]

You should re-read the bits in the Bible where God commands wholesale genocide and mass-murder.

Conceded.

This sounds like something an atheist would write, not a Christian. Then again, the author also wrote a book called "Why Islam is not a religion of peace, and Christianity is" so nevermind. In any case, the fact that the book is available does mean that the military is pushing it.

Ever hear of Jack Chick?

What's your point? Even if they handed these out for free, people aren't forced to read them. Even if they're the most BS right-wing propaganda ever, it doesn't mean that it's officially presented by the military as absolute truth.

Which beliefs? If it's something like loving your brothers, doing your duty to your leaders, etc, what's wrong with that? If it's "Christ is right! Whip your slaves daily, and your wives too!" then that is a problem.

You haven't had very many dealings with fundie assholes have you?

The statement in the article is so vague that it would mean all sorts of things. If I am overlooking something, then please, show me.

It also says the military permits proselytizing by soldiers, tolerates anti-Semitism and the placing of religious symbols on military equipment, and allows the use of military e-mail accounts to send religious rhetoric.

Nothing wrong with praying.

Proselytizing does not equal praying. It's not their job to be a fucking preacher.

I misread that.

So racist attitudes are a-okay as long as they're common?

Call this jumping to conclusions if you want, but I have a feeling this "anti-semitism" is a bunch of soldiers talking, and one of them happens to tell a joke about jews, and everyone else laughs. Does this mean they're all anti-semites?

Because the workplace is not somewhere to spread the message of whatever sky pixie you happen to believe in numbnuts.

As I understand it, when you're in the military, you get an email account that ends in @usarmy.mil or something like that. That's a military email account. It's also a personal email account, where that soldier can write whatever he wants.

Call me skeptical on this. I mean, I'm fairly certain that there are officers to preach to the men, and there are NCOs that pressure their men, etc, but I doubt that these certain officers care so much about this one individual that they'd block his re-enlistment. Aren't they offering really good bonuses to anyone that re-enlists? This guy's examples are vague enough that it makes for good-sounding news yet doesn't really say anything. He's probably trying to get his officers examined for competence or something, and this was a convenient way of doing it.

[Morilore]

What's your point? Even if they handed these out for free, people aren't forced to read them. Even if they're the most BS right-wing propaganda ever, it doesn't mean that it's officially presented by the military as absolute truth.

If the military made a point of making those books available, it means they implicitly endorse them, since they could have chosen from any number of books to make available.

You haven't had very many dealings with fundie assholes have you?

The statement in the article is so vague that it would mean all sorts of things. If I am overlooking something, then please, show me.

What the good goddamn is so fucking vague about "fundamentalist Christian beliefs?"

[General Zod]

What's your point? Even if they handed these out for free, people aren't forced to read them. Even if they're the most BS right-wing propaganda ever, it doesn't mean that it's officially presented by the military as absolute truth.

My point is that your claim "it doesn't sound like something a Christian would write" is woefully ignorant. Go look up Anne Coulter while you're at it.

The statement in the article is so vague that it would mean all sorts of things. If I am overlooking something, then please, show me.

You seem to be looking things through rose-colored glasses, is my point.

Call this jumping to conclusions if you want, but I have a feeling this "anti-semitism" is a bunch of soldiers talking, and one of them happens to tell a joke about jews, and everyone else laughs. Does this mean they're all anti-semites?

So if they replaced "Jew" jokes with "Faggot" jokes would you be saying they weren't raging homophobes?

As I understand it, when you're in the military, you get an email account that ends in @usarmy.mil or something like that. That's a military email account. It's also a personal email account, where that soldier can write whatever he wants.

Everyone I've ever talked to insists that their email is heavily watched, partly to make sure no classified shit gets sent out. It's not your private account to use however the fuck you want.

He's probably trying to get his officers examined for competence or something, and this was a convenient way of doing it.

If the chain of command failed him how else was he supposed to get it done?

[The Yosemite Bear]

You know Alex you sound like My friend Chad arguing with my stepdad over the Vietnam era M16s.

(hint one of them actually fired and maintained a vietnam era M16 with the messed up uncromed barrels and the shitty substandard powder (WWII era surplus black powder for ship battles) and the other one fired a few rounds from an actual Vietnam era weapon, that had been chromed, fanatically cleaned, and using specially reformulated charges)

stacking the deck fallacy anyone?