Star Wars Economy

[Darth Wong]

Why is everyone assuming that fuel is cheap? It could very well be that the cost of producing hypermatter fuel is prohibitive enough to explain why a one-way freighter trip could approach the cost of a small starship. It could explain a lot of other questions too.

Remember that we spend almost all of the SW film series watching people who are either politicians, military personnel, Jedi knights, or rebels who are sufficiently well-funded to build planetary bases and manufacture their own variants of starships.

Doesn't that imply that Han himself earns a fair bit to sustain himself? It does put into question how pirates and so forth find the fuel to run their operation.

Obviously, being a pirate is a marginal existence. Han himself was so deep in debt that he ended up with a huge price on his life by the end of the film.

[Havok]

Why is everyone assuming that fuel is cheap? It could very well be that the cost of producing hypermatter fuel is prohibitive enough to explain why a one-way freighter trip could approach the cost of a small starship. It could explain a lot of other questions too.

Remember that we spend almost all of the SW film series watching people who are either politicians, military personnel, Jedi knights, or rebels who are sufficiently well-funded to build planetary bases and manufacture their own variants of starships.

Doesn't that imply that Han himself earns a fair bit to sustain himself? It does put into question how pirates and so forth find the fuel to run their operation.

Obviously, being a pirate is a marginal existence. Han himself was so deep in debt that he ended up with a huge price on his life by the end of the film.

He had a price on his head because he had to ditch his cargo when some Imperials tried to board him, and he hadn't paid off Jabba yet. Is it implied somewhere that the price on his head was from anything other than that?

[Knife]

He had a price on his head because he had to ditch his cargo when some Imperials tried to board him, and he hadn't paid off Jabba yet. Is it implied somewhere that the price on his head was from anything other than that?

doesn't change his point in that Han was living on such an edge that ditching one load put him in jeopordy. If anything your post reinforces Wongs.

[Darth Wong]

He had a price on his head because he had to ditch his cargo when some Imperials tried to board him, and he hadn't paid off Jabba yet. Is it implied somewhere that the price on his head was from anything other than that?

You can't see how he must be living marginally if the loss of a single shipment (whose total value must have been less than the 17k credits that Obi-Wan promised him for the trip) was enough to put his life at risk?

[Havok]

Not really. He wasn't that deep in debt if one transport could get him out of it.

And if was so deep in debt, and obviously didn't get paid for the cargo he didn't deliver, and he can still keep the Falcon running then that could imply that fuel isn't that expensive at all. And even if he had to take side jobs to buy fuel, they still weren't paying him enough to pay Jabba back, but were paying him enough to buy the fuel.

[Havok]

He had a price on his head because he had to ditch his cargo when some Imperials tried to board him, and he hadn't paid off Jabba yet. Is it implied somewhere that the price on his head was from anything other than that?

You can't see how he must be living marginally if the loss of a single shipment (whose total value must have been less than the 17k credits that Obi-Wan promised him for the trip) was enough to put his life at risk?

No, I'm not arguing that at all. Sure he is living paycheck to pay check, that is part of his character.

[Havok]

Just a nit pick: He didn't have the price on his head until after ANH, as he talked to Jabba and agreed to pay him back soon plus 15%.

[Hawkwings]

I got the impression that Jabba put the price on Han's head because he ditched the cargo, not because of the value of the cargo lost. There was something in a Star Wars book about how Han was one of Jabba's best smugglers because he almost never got caught and almost never ditched his cargo. Maybe Jabba just wanted to send a message to the rest of his smugglers with Solo's bounty.

[Havok]

I got the impression that Jabba put the price on Han's head because he ditched the cargo, not because of the value of the cargo lost. There was something in a Star Wars book about how Han was one of Jabba's best smugglers because he almost never got caught and almost never ditched his cargo. Maybe Jabba just wanted to send a message to the rest of his smugglers with Solo's bounty.

No, Jabba was all hunkey dory with Han in ANH, he even let him walk on his tail without killing him. Even in TESB, Han says: "Well there's a price on my head. If I don't pay off Jabba the Hutt, I'm a dead man." So even at that point he could still make good on it. Boba Fett even told Vader that Han was no good to him dead, so obviously Jabba wanted him alive. I think Jabba was more pissed that he was making him look bad to other smugglers than the fact that he some how managed to fuck up paying Jabba back between ANH and TESB. It wasn't until 3 years latter in Jabba's palace that he was no longer willing to take payment from Han. Not even triple the original amount, which apparently is a "fortune".

[SCRawl]

I got the impression that Jabba put the price on Han's head because he ditched the cargo, not because of the value of the cargo lost. There was something in a Star Wars book about how Han was one of Jabba's best smugglers because he almost never got caught and almost never ditched his cargo. Maybe Jabba just wanted to send a message to the rest of his smugglers with Solo's bounty.

No, Jabba was all hunkey dory with Han in ANH, he even let him walk on his tail without killing him. Even in TESB, Han says: "Well there's a price on my head. If I don't pay off Jabba the Hutt, I'm a dead man." So even at that point he could still make good on it. Boba Fett even told Vader that Han was no good to him dead, so obviously Jabba wanted him alive. I think Jabba was more pissed that he was making him look bad to other smugglers than the fact that he some how managed to fuck up paying Jabba back between ANH and TESB. It wasn't until 3 years latter in Jabba's palace that he was no longer willing to take payment from Han. Not even triple the original amount, which apparently is a "fortune".

Emphasis mine. I'd been thinking recently about why it was that Solo didn't get around to paying off Jabba, considering how important it was that he do so. I mean, he had all of the money he needed, and given the kinds of travel times in SW, he could have been there and back in two shakes of a Gundark's tail.

I came to the conclusion that although the trip was possible in the physical sense, he might not have been able to find the rebels again on the return trip. If I were among the rebellion's leadership, I'm sure that I wouldn't trust very many people who were going on an unsupervised road trip with an exact time and place for where I could be found. Han must have felt a strong tie to the rebels, and decided to make his home there and risk the consequences.

Does this make sense, am I talking out of my rectum, or has this ground been covered before?

[Lord Revan]

ofc there's the possiblity that rebel leadership didn't trust Han Solo enough to allow him to leave or that he belives that is the case.

After all if I was a rebel leader trying to find a new base of operation I'd think very carefully before I'd let someone like Han Solo and who has possibly seen my future base of operation leave, unless I trusted that he wouldn't go rat it's location to the empire at the first possible opportunity.

[FTeik]

From what I know Han was trying to give Jabba his money, but was robbed himself on the way to Tattooine.

[Isolder74]

From what I know Han was trying to give Jabba his money, but was robbed himself on the way to Tattooine.

No it is obvious that he still had it in ESB. He was trying to leave Hoth with the intention of paying Jabba.

[Ted C]

Are there any treatments of the economic situation in the SW galaxy? Things like unemployment rates, poverty, etc? The implication in the films is that all of the poverty is concentrated on the Outer Rim with the Core worlds being reliably prosperous, but does that really make sense? Especially with the upheavals that must have taken place during the Clone Wars?

Our movie views of Coruscant and Naboo revolved around the homes and offices of government officials and well-funded organizations. It's not surprising that we would see Coruscant as properous. The rather dilapidated industrial area where Count Dooku landed at the end of AOTC, however, tells me that Coruscant isn't uniformly prosperous. The presence of a drug dealer also shows that there's a lively criminal element on Coruscant. If Coruscant is typical of core worlds, then I'd say they probably have the full range of prosperity, from super-rich to homeless poor.

As for the Rim worlds, we actually have some radically different examples. Naboo seems prosperous enough, although again we typically only see government office buildings and the home of a prosperous family. You might see different levels of affluence outside Theed.

Tatooine seems to be an exceptionally poor planet for the Star Wars galaxy, but what can you expect from a place that is almost entirely desert with no significant resources for export? Its chief resource seems to be its value as a place to avoid the authorities.

[Publius]

It's known that the galactic economy was in recession as of 7 rS (Cdr Wilhuff Tarkin comments in Rogue Planet that "the Trade Federation has suffered from this economic downturn as much as the Republic has"); to some extent anti-battledroid legislation following the Naboo Incident contributed to this. The legal dissolution of the TradeFed's mechanical armies deprived Baktoid Armor Workshop of its largest customer (even if they did secretly re-form), and the new licensing restrictions made battle 'droids "prohibitively expensive for most of Baktoid's clientele," according to "Baktoid Closes Down Five More Plants."

Tarkin himself provides a subtle indicator of economic conditions in the Core Worlds Regions at the time. Although he lived in a rather large mansion on Eriadu -- an industrial world heavily dominated by his patrician family's interests -- and, while serving as lieutenant governor of Seswenna Sector, once mused in Cloak of Deception that "should duty ever call for me to be confined to one place, I will at least demand that I have ample space around me," on Coruscant the apartment he lived in was "small but choice, high on the residential level of Prime Senate Spire, two kilometers higher than most of the city," according to Rogue Planet.

It is well known that space is at a premium on Coruscant. In Rogue Squadron, Ysanne Isard's office appeared "decadently opulent" despite its spartan décor precisely because it consisted mostly of a great deal of empty space. Tarkin's friend Raith Sienar reflected in Rogue Planet that "space was at a premium all over Coruscant, and even now, in the economic downturn, Tarkin's quarters, while high over the city, were much less spacious and certainly less well-appointed than Sienar's own." The particularly interesting thing is that Tarkin, a wealthy man of affairs, could apparently only afford a small apartment on Coruscant; Palpatine of Naboo was able to afford an "modest apartment" in 500 Republica so large that it could house the entire Royal party in comfort during The Phantom Menace, apparently indicating that there may be a significant difference in levels of income among social classes: Palpatine is a politician on the galactic level, while Tarkin operates on the sectorial level. Palpatine's "modest apartment" seems (on admittedly bare evidence) to be rather larger and more expensive than Tarkin's, which is especially striking in that his "modest apartment" is specifically said to pale in comparison to "the stunning palaces of other sectorial representatives" in Episode I: The Visual Dictionary.

There is of course indication in the Dark Empire Sourcebook that the Core Worlds are generally much more comfortable than the rest of the galaxy:

Far from the watchful eye of the Empire and its clean, orderly police-state planets, there is a totally different world not patrolled by armed and armored troops, lacking curfews and weapons detectors and sentry droids. Most Imperial citizens never enter this world, moving only in hermetically sealed, environmentally sculpted corridors and mallplexes. But if they left behind their safe luxury liner world for a while, they would see a unique environment with its own rules.

"Into the Core Worlds" notes that "the most technologically and culturally advanced Human settlements in the galaxy make their homes in the Core, and it is here -- among terraced estates, urban palaces, and plasteel towers -- that the wealthiest, most famous, and most powerful beings in the galaxy make their homes," adding that

[...] the Core Worlds are the economic engines of the Empire. Were the thrumming economies of the Core Worlds to falter, the constant Imperial drive outward into the Outer Rim would slow and begin to fall back on itself. The Emperor therefore gives Core worlds and their client megacorporations a great deal of leeway in developing and managing their own economic policies.

Many of the most powerful multistellar corporations -- The Tagge Company, Kuat Drive Yards, the Bank of the Core, Rendili StarDrive, Loronar Corporation, Industrial Automaton -- were headquartered in the Core; only a very few such as Cybot Galactica and Santhe/Sienar Technologies were headquartered elsewhere, usually for historical reasons. The trend seems to be that the further one goes Rimward, "the transition from advanced Core world to merely robust Colony world is very gradual," but nevertheless very definite. There are a few 'outposts of civilization' beyond the Colonies and Inner Rim (such as Eriadu and the Corporate Sector), generally the results of Core Worlds backing, and what passes for opulence in the Rim may not translate to the Core. It appears that the main resources of the Core are money and technology.

We do know that the 'Phony War' (and 'Cold War' of the Pestage and Isard regencies had disastrous effects on the economies of a large number of worlds. The Phony War saw the capture and pillaging of Brentaal IV, a major shipping hub, whose loss proved to be a major contributing factor in the fall of the Pestage regency ("In the Empire's Service"). "Recon & Report: The Journey to Coruscant" recounts the implementation of Isard's policy of centralization, including the total withdrawal of all military, naval, diplomatic, and civil service personnel from innumerable "worlds of lesser strategic importance," resulting in the shutting down, scuttling, and destruction of factories and shipyards while major components were dismantled for relocation to more centrally located sites; the withdrawal of the Imperial State resulted in the termination of shipping to those worlds, as it was no longer profitable for major shipping lines -- most of whom were very closely tied to the Imperial State, it should be noted -- to service worlds no longer under the protection of the Empire. The result of Imperial withdrawal from outlying territories was that global economies plunged into deep recession.

It is interesting to note that the collapse of economies also provoked total governmental collapse, which made possible the rise of piracy and rogue warlordism; the Mid-Rim and Expansion Regions were particularly targeted for Imperial withdrawal, and not coincidentally became hotbeds of rogue warlordism. The warlord states were basically kleptocracies, and "Recon & Report: The Journey to Coruscant" indicates that they took advantage of the absence of the Imperial Navy to carry out economies of theft, using small fleets to raid "supply stations, factories and shipyards which provide resources unavailable in a warlord's home sector." This meant, of course, that it was increasingly risky to ship goods or raw materials to worlds or independent states lacking powerful navy protection. In short, a world not under the protection of the Empire, the New Republic, or some other superstate capable of providing adequate naval protection was more or less left to the wolves.

[Darth Ruinus]

ofc there's the possiblity that rebel leadership didn't trust Han Solo enough to allow him to leave or that he belives that is the case.

After all if I was a rebel leader trying to find a new base of operation I'd think very carefully before I'd let someone like Han Solo and who has possibly seen my future base of operation leave, unless I trusted that he wouldn't go rat it's location to the empire at the first possible opportunity.

The Rebel commander was about to let Han leave, right before the Empire found the Rebel base on Hoth, so apperantly they did trust Han enough to know the location of a Rebel base, and he even said something like "You're one of the best pilots the Alliance has to offer, I'm going to [something] losing you."

SCRawl had it right I think, but I also beleive it had something to do with Leia

[Boeing 757]

They have a galaxy worth of resources to draw from, but for some reason they still have a capitalist economy.

Well I'm certainly no economist aside form taking uni. courses on the subject, but from what I've understood about the matter capitalism produces the most efficient result because producers know what quantity to sell and at what price. Depending on how much a government might want to remain outside of the loop, the market is quite stable under capitalism, mainly because it reaches its equilibrium balance. Since SW organizations could hardly be any different in their goals (their sole reason for existiting is to maximize profit), what other method might exist to carry out the goals of maximizing profit? Certainly you're not suggesting that the SW galaxy should have a government regulated market like communism?

Interstellar trade is extremely important for galactic economy and they trade even with things as basic as foodstuffs (whereas in post-scarcity we should find primarily transference of technology and/or information). Hell, in Star Wars there are entire worlds that build their economy around agrarian exports, when every single system should be self-sufficient (excluding the ecumenopolis, perhaps) at least in this regard.

Perhaps, but can we say for certain to what degree their economy is based on agricultural exports, or for that matter how many worlds actually relie on exporting foodstuffs? Do we even know what percentage of the galaxy needs agricultural imports, or are you just claiming that this is the way it is because one planet seemed to need them?

There seems to be a very stupid trend in sci-fi and SW in general where planets have a uniform variety to their ecology. For instance we'll either have the desert world (Tatooine), the volcanic world (Mustafar), or even the jungle world (Felucia). Planets like these definately wouldn't be very suitable for agricultural and might indeed require imported agricultural goods, especially if they have a large population. There's hardly any doubt that some planets in the SW universe might just need these imports.

Then again, we should also consider that some planets might find another planet's produce extremely pleasurable. One planet might not have a suitable climate for bananas, for example, but another one might and so they trade with each other and a market becomes established. At any corner where demand might exist, there's always likely to a market right down the street. So yeah, there's always going to be some form of trade regarding foods no matter what.

[Darth Wong]

I'm a little tired of all the "post-scarcity" economy talk. Wake up: America has effectively been a post-scarcity economy for the last 50 years; has this transformed it into some sort of Marxist utopia? Nope, people simply start competing over how absurdly far above scarcity they will try to vault themselves.

[Havok]

ofc there's the possiblity that rebel leadership didn't trust Han Solo enough to allow him to leave or that he belives that is the case.

After all if I was a rebel leader trying to find a new base of operation I'd think very carefully before I'd let someone like Han Solo and who has possibly seen my future base of operation leave, unless I trusted that he wouldn't go rat it's location to the empire at the first possible opportunity.

The Rebel commander was about to let Han leave, right before the Empire found the Rebel base on Hoth, so apperantly they did trust Han enough to know the location of a Rebel base, and he even said something like "You're one of the best pilots the Alliance has to offer, I'm going to [something] losing you."

SCRawl had it right I think, but I also beleive it had something to do with Leia

It had nothing to do with trust. Han was packing up his supplies and reward at the end of ANH. As far as anyone was concerned at that point he was gone.
Some where, there is a story about how Han lost the reward and couldn't pay off Jabba, and if IIRC, got back with the rebels for protection and job opportunities as much as anything. I'm thinking it was in the Williamson dailies.

Oh, and...
"General, I have to leave. I can't stay anymore."
"I'm sorry to hear that."
"Well there's a price on my head. If I don't pay off Jabba the Hutt, I'm a dead man."
"A death mark's not an easy thing to live with. You're a good fighter Solo. I hate to loose you."
"Thank you General."

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm a little tired of all the "post-scarcity" economy talk. Wake up: America has effectively been a post-scarcity economy for the last 50 years; has this transformed it into some sort of Marxist utopia? Nope, people simply start competing over how absurdly far above scarcity they will try to vault themselves.

I think that alot of this "post scarcity" stuff is a followthrough on how sci fi societies are "supposed" to be, since I can remember this coming up on more than a few OSF discussions. I think you're right though, this seems to be an "ideal" situation assuming that all all groups/societies/people have access to such resources equally.

In Star Wars, for example, ,we know the Republic has existed for thousands of years more or less peacefully, but it seems that for a good deal of that time it's been corrupt and ineffectual: We see that massive corporations and industries (the Trade Federation, etc.) seem to control a large chunk of the galactic resources (and spend money making sure it stays that way.).

There seem to be few "independent" large scale groups anymore - Naboo seemed to be one example (given how many lifeless planets Palpatine/Padme's sector supposedly controlled, they probably made themselves wealthy on harvesting/providing raw materials to the galaxy - this would make sense with w hat is said in AOTC over the assasination attemped on Padme.) In fact, such wealth probably explains why Naboo is the way it is (and how utterly naive people like Padme seem to be about galactic scale matters.)

It does seem that, like in the US, Star Wars has a great many groups competing as you say, only on a more grandiose scale.

Insofar as Anakin and his mother went in AOTC, I should note that the fact slaves might seem to be comfortable or well off is not any contradiction to this. Many people in the US are "comfortable" (have housing, fancy gadgets, ,etc.) yet would be scarcely better off. (It says more about the commonality of such items than anything.)

[Terralthra]

I'm fairly certain that the price on his head has less to do with the value of the cargo itself than it does with the situation involved. Illegal cargo not lost but dumped, organized crime kingpin, etc. I think the whole death mark for losing cargo and not paying it back promptly has much more to do with Han Solo's life being cheap as far as Jabba's concerned.

Consider that it's economical for Boba Fett to chase Solo across many systems, then haul him back across several more, including several skirmishes with other bounty hunters, for only 100k credits. He ended up getting paid more, but he was told 100k up front.

[Shadowtraveler]

Not really. He wasn't that deep in debt if one transport could get him out of it.

Considering how Luke reacts to Han's price, I get the feeling 10,000 is...rather an extreme amount for a transport, even if it is to the Core.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Not really. He wasn't that deep in debt if one transport could get him out of it.

Considering how Luke reacts to Han's price, I get the feeling 10,000 is...rather an extreme amount for a transport, even if it is to the Core.

Right. One expects a private jet chartered to fly under radar to Europe and to evade possible pursuit would cost considerably more than a commercial flight.

[Havok]

I'm fairly certain that the price on his head has less to do with the value of the cargo itself than it does with the situation involved. Illegal cargo not lost but dumped, organized crime kingpin, etc. I think the whole death mark for losing cargo and not paying it back promptly has much more to do with Han Solo's life being cheap as far as Jabba's concerned.

I would go even farther than that and say its not even that Solo's life is worthless to Jabba, which isn't exactly true, since he believes that he is a very good smuggler... IIRC he said "the best". Han seemed to agree saying "Even I get boarded sometimes!", but that Jabba's reputation as a ruthless crime boss is worth far more than Solo's life or skills. If Han can "dis" Jabba, what's to stop other smugglers from doing it. The price was probably more to make an example of Han than Jabba being out of pocket.

Consider that it's economical for Boba Fett to chase Solo across many systems, then haul him back across several more, including several skirmishes with other bounty hunters, for only 100k credits. He ended up getting paid more, but he was told 100k up front.

Where are you getting the 100k from? I don't remember ever seeing a figure for Han. Leia as Bousch, was asking 50k for Chewie and Jabba had a fit.

As for Boba Fett, he is the premier bounty hunter in the galaxy, his name alone causes fear. He probably makes quite a bit more in his trade than Han does in his. Even so, him gallivanting all over the galaxy in his job, like you said, along with all the lesser names in bounty hunting, could just show more that fuel probably isn't astronomically expensive and even moderately affordable.

[Havok]

Not really. He wasn't that deep in debt if one transport could get him out of it.

Considering how Luke reacts to Han's price, I get the feeling 10,000 is...rather an extreme amount for a transport, even if it is to the Core.

Never said it wasn't. In fact, I pointed out that Luke thought they could almost buy their own ship for that. It doesn't change the fact that ONE transport, basically a smuggling run, could get Han out of his debt.

On the subject of the 10k. Han seemed to come up with that price after he found out he might be dodging Imperials. So how much would a non Imperial dodging transport have cost? If Han doubled the price, then 5K? Based on that number out of my ass, which isn't that unreasonable, how much would fuel have to cost then. Less then the 5K or it wouldn't be worth it.