Personal responsibility in a "Christian" Ethical s

[Lusankya]

How exactly does Christianity account for personal responsibility for one's actions? To my understanding, the whole point of "salvation not through deeds but through Christ alone" is that you're a sinner and destined for hell, but that's ok, because Jesus can take the rap for you.

It's like you're some delinquent (and you know that you are, because all the church officials say you are), but when it comes to Judgment day, it turns out that your best mate is the Magistrate's son, and he says, "Yeah, that was me," even though it wasn't, and then the Magistrate says, "Ok, I believe you, since you're my son, but I know that you're Good Boy, since you're my son, so I won't send you to hell er, jail." Because, you know, nepotism is standard operating procedure for all omni-benevolent, all-just beings.

And since Christianity doesn't seem to have any mechanism for personal responsibility for one's actions, what's stopping Christians from running around stealing and killing and raping people, since their religion tells them that Christ will forgive them just so long as they believe in him?;)

[Eulogy]

You hit the nail on the head. The only thing that the sky pixie cares about is that you mindlessly kowtow to him; it doesn't matter what you do after that.

And since Christianity doesn't seem to have any mechanism for personal responsibility for one's actions, what's stopping Christians from running around stealing and killing and raping people, since their religion tells them that Christ will forgive them just so long as they believe in him?;)

Because they tend to have at least a dash of goodness in them despite their religion.

[Superman]

[quote="Lusankya"]How exactly does Christianity account for personal responsibility for one's actions? To my understanding, the whole point of "salvation not through deeds but through Christ alone" is that you're a sinner and destined for hell, but that's ok, because Jesus can take the rap for you.

First of all, what kind of retard would think that "just believing" has any kind of meaning? Wouldn't you think that actually doing something is more important than faith? Shouldn't helping people, spreading love, feeding the hungry, etc., be more important than faith? Who gives a shit about faith anyway? How does faith help the world?

Salvation through faith is bullshit anyway. Look at all the pansy ass Christians who live this way because they think their faith dictates it. You think that bunch of idiots would live by all their bullshit rules if they didn't "have to" do it? Oh wait, those are rules... rules = "works." Salvation is from works?? OH my!

[Darth Wong]

I've spent enough time in churches and around Christians to know that the vast majority of them never really try to reason out their faith at all. That's why it doesn't seem to bother them that there are major logical contradictions in it; they just avoid thinking about it.

It's all gut instinct, ie- accumulated social programming which they subconsciously imprint onto Christianity. So they "know" that they can be forgiven for their sins if they just say they're really really sorry, because that's how it worked with their parents when they were children and they've imprinted this onto Christianity. And they "know" that homosexuality is wrong because that's how it works in their social environment and they've imprinted this onto Christianity. On the other hand, they "know" that the Old Testament rules about shellfish and beating your children are not applicable any more because they are not accepted in mainstream society and they've imprinted that onto Christianity too.

In short, virtually all mainstream Christian thought is nothing more than social norms, which Christians mistakenly believe to have come from the Bible. They carry all the certainty of social norms, and they believe that this certainty is faith in God when it's really nothing more than the power of social conformism. Christians in 1850 were just as certain that the Bible promoted slavery as Christians in 2007 are certain that it doesn't. In both cases, it wasn't the Bible at all; it was social norms.

[Superman]

It's all gut instinct, ie- accumulated social programming which they subconsciously imprint onto Christianity.

I think that's true for the majority, and the best case scenario. On the other hand, I'm convinced that there's a good chunk of that population who are really just acting out their mental disorder. Look at idiots like Kent Hovind. That motherfucker refused to pay taxes, justifying his reasoning with his faith, to the point of going to federal prison. Maybe the tards like him are just super narcissists who really believe that they have "god on their side;" but I think the line between irrational and mental disorder gets pretty thin with this group.

[Darth Wong]

It's all gut instinct, ie- accumulated social programming which they subconsciously imprint onto Christianity.

I think that's true for the majority, and the best case scenario. On the other hand, I'm convinced that there's a good chunk of that population who are really just acting out their mental disorder. Look at idiots like Kent Hovind. That motherfucker refused to pay taxes, justifying his reasoning with his faith, to the point of going to federal prison. Maybe the tards like him are just super narcissists who really believe that they have "god on their side;" but I think the line between irrational and mental disorder gets pretty thin with this group.

Oh I agree; I was talking about the great teeming masses of "moderate" Christians, not the fanatical loons.

[Vaporous]

On the theological side, the question of personal responsibility comes and goes. Augustine denied free will on the cusp of the Dark Ages when the Church was weak because it seemed more in line with the Bible. but when it grew in strength and influence, need and the changing social scene made the belief in free will more prevalent as a means of promoting personal responsibility and a feeling of guilt- the better to get people to keep order. The Reformation brought back predestination as a way of contrasting themselves to the catholics and returning to the Old Christianity.

Basically, a religion is like anything else- a social institution changes people and changes with the people if it has any hope of surviving. It's very much what Mike said; most people just say "Christianity is good, because I was taught that- these other things I've been taught to do are good... so they must go together."

[Setzer]

I remember reading a book full of modern day parables, and one dealt with two friends, one of whom father had a membership in a fancy country club. The friends pretty much had the run of the place because of family connections, and the moral was that that's what Christian salvation is like. "I'm friends with the owners son, so I get in free."

Damn, I wish I still had that book. That's one hell of a Freudian slip.

[Darth Wong]

I remember reading a book full of modern day parables, and one dealt with two friends, one of whom father had a membership in a fancy country club. The friends pretty much had the run of the place because of family connections, and the moral was that that's what Christian salvation is like. "I'm friends with the owners son, so I get in free."

Damn, I wish I still had that book. That's one hell of a Freudian slip.

There's actually a parable in the Bible where the master has a misbehaving servant "tortured", and Jesus brags that this is what Heaven is like. You don't hear too many Christians quoting that. There's also a parable where he says that you should not get upset at unfairness, using a parable where two servants get hired at vastly different pay scales for the same work, and he says the lower-paid guy is being an asshole for expecting fairness instead of being happy with what he's got.

Jesus' parables often contain shit that Christians would rather you forgot.

[CaptainChewbacca]

There's actually a parable in the Bible where the master has a misbehaving servant "tortured", and Jesus brags that this is what Heaven is like. You don't hear too many Christians quoting that. There's also a parable where he says that you should not get upset at unfairness, using a parable where two servants get hired at vastly different pay scales for the same work, and he says the lower-paid guy is being an asshole for expecting fairness instead of being happy with what he's got.

Jesus' parables often contain shit that Christians would rather you forgot.

Which parable is this? The one with the talents, or the one with forgiveness of debts?

[Darth Wong]

There's actually a parable in the Bible where the master has a misbehaving servant "tortured", and Jesus brags that this is what Heaven is like. You don't hear too many Christians quoting that. There's also a parable where he says that you should not get upset at unfairness, using a parable where two servants get hired at vastly different pay scales for the same work, and he says the lower-paid guy is being an asshole for expecting fairness instead of being happy with what he's got.

Jesus' parables often contain shit that Christians would rather you forgot.

Which parable is this? The one with the talents, or the one with forgiveness of debts?

Neither. Those two are well-publicized. This one is about a farmhand who gets hired for a low wage. Later, a second farmhand gets hired for a much higher wage, doing the exact same work. When the first guy complains, he gets told to STFU because he's getting enough to survive, so he should be happy. Some Christian preachers tell this parable as a way of exhorting against jealousy of other people who are better off than you, but most Christians simply ignore it, which is why it's one of the more obscure parables. Who wants to brag about a parable telling people that fairness is unimportant? I can't recall exact chapter and verse, but I'm sure you can look it up if you're really keen.

[Darth RyanKCR]

There's actually a parable in the Bible where the master has a misbehaving servant "tortured", and Jesus brags that this is what Heaven is like. You don't hear too many Christians quoting that. There's also a parable where he says that you should not get upset at unfairness, using a parable where two servants get hired at vastly different pay scales for the same work, and he says the lower-paid guy is being an asshole for expecting fairness instead of being happy with what he's got.

Jesus' parables often contain shit that Christians would rather you forgot.

Which parable is this? The one with the talents, or the one with forgiveness of debts?

Neither. Those two are well-publicized. This one is about a farmhand who gets hired for a low wage. Later, a second farmhand gets hired for a much higher wage, doing the exact same work. When the first guy complains, he gets told to STFU because he's getting enough to survive, so he should be happy. Some Christian preachers tell this parable as a way of exhorting against jealousy of other people who are better off than you, but most Christians simply ignore it, which is why it's one of the more obscure parables. Who wants to brag about a parable telling people that fairness is unimportant? I can't recall exact chapter and verse, but I'm sure you can look it up if you're really keen.

You are close. The three workers are all paid the same (allagory for eternal life) but each worked different amount of times (allagory for the type of sinner seen through man's eyes). The point is that God has the ability to forgive (pay) whom He desires based on repentance (willing to work).

James indicated that Faith without works is dead. There is great personal responsibility. It is why we as Christians can question a person's salvation based on their actions but cannot declare that person's salvation, only God's knows.

That is why the true Scotsman Fallacy is a fallacy to use on Christians who declare people like Hitler as not a Christian in the true sense of the work and belief system. Christ did say that God will turn many away that called themselves Christians because they did not follow Him.

The point James is making is not that deeds save you but the deeds show that you are saved.

[Superman]

This one?

Matthew 20

1"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. 2He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
3"About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5So they went.

"He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. 6About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'

7" 'Because no one has hired us,' they answered.
"He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'

8"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.'

9"The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'

13"But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'

16"So the last will be first, and the first will be last."

The point is that God has the ability to forgive (pay) whom He desires based on repentance (willing to work).

How nice of god. I would ask what is he forgiving me for? Being his creation? What kind of god creates flawed humans, then blames those humans for his own mistakes?

James indicated that Faith without works is dead. There is great personal responsibility. It is why we as Christians can question a person's salvation based on their actions but cannot declare that person's salvation, only God's knows.

This is also why Martin Luther almost took this book out of the New Testament entirely.

Here's what the book of James has to say:

James 2:17
Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

James 2:21-25
Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Now, compare this to a small sample of other verses.

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 3:18, 36
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already .... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 16:30-31
Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God salvation to every one that believeth.... As it is written, The just shall live by faith.

This has been a hotly contested issue probably since the founding of the church itself; and it's definitely been debated since the Protestant Reformation. There is no clear answer that can be drawn without making certain subjective inferences. Thinking otherwise amounts to fooling yourself.

That is why the true Scotsman Fallacy is a fallacy to use on Christians who declare people like Hitler as not a Christian in the true sense of the work and belief system. Christ did say that God will turn many away that called themselves Christians because they did not follow Him.

Too bad I forgot my rain boots: the bullshit is really piling up here. Let's see a few verses the Bible contains about war, and atrocities committed in the name of the faith.

If thou shalt hear say ... Certain men ... saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known ... Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. Deuteronomy 13:12-15

When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it ... And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women ... shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. ... But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: But thou shalt utterly destroy them ... as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. Deuteronomy 20:10-17

And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. Joshua 6:21

So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. Joshua 10:40

Oh, those are from the Old Testament, you say?

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34

He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

[Surlethe]

The reasoning most Christians use when it comes to personal responsibility is that if a person is truly saved, he won't want to sin because it distances him from Jesus. So in their eyes, there's always a sort of internal conflict going on -- that's the general consensus of what Paul's talking about when he writes of "flesh vs spirit" -- between "fallen nature" and "saved nature".

In the minds of this sort of Christian, committing a sin like, say, murder or rape, is a Bad Thing since it hurts others and hurts God because you're disobeying capital-H him. Because obedience is the essence of morality, moral Christians won't go around murdering people, even though if they're truly sorry they believe Jesus will forgive them. Also, if they repent, that's taken to include resolving never to commit that particular sin again, so presumably a murderer who repents will never kill again.

Weak, I know, but that's the rationalization as close as I can recall it.

[Superman]

In the minds of this sort of Christian, committing a sin like, say, murder or rape, is a Bad Thing since it hurts others and hurts God because you're disobeying capital-H him. Because obedience is the essence of morality, moral Christians won't go around murdering people, even though if they're truly sorry they believe Jesus will forgive them. Also, if they repent, that's taken to include resolving never to commit that particular sin again, so presumably a murderer who repents will never kill again.

I think that about sums it up.

I just wonder who in their right minds would want to live this way. Christians seem to go through life constantly questioning their actions, worrying about what other Christians will think, etc. Who the hell needs that? It's truly living in an infantile state; if God is their father, and they feel that they must always remain in this childlike state, I would say they need to "grow up" spiritually.

The other point I hear Christians make is that they see a difference between a "sin" and the person who commits it. This is nonsense. If someone steals, he is a thief. If a priest rapes a child, then he's a pedophile. It's not a hard formula. Life is about actions, not thoughts. Actions define us. I'd wouldn't have a problem living in a town full of murderers who never actually murder anyone.

[Junghalli]

I just wonder who in their right minds would want to live this way. Christians seem to go through life constantly questioning their actions, worrying about what other Christians will think, etc. Who the hell needs that?

I don't know, I think wondering about how moral your actions are is probably a pretty universal state of human existence, regardless of what you believe. I'm an atheist but I still often wonder about how well I'm living up to my principles. Whatever you attribute the source of your morality to unless your moral system is something along the lines of "I should get do whatever the fuck I want, whenever the fuck I want" (which is essentially sociopathic) temptations to violate it in little ways are going to be everywhere, and odds are you can't help but doing it occassionally. I think feeling yourself less moral than you'd ideally like to be is a human universal, regardless of particular belief systems.

[Darth Wong]

I don't know, I think wondering about how moral your actions are is probably a pretty universal state of human existence, regardless of what you believe.

Yes, but most people compare themselves to other people when they question their own morality. Christians are bound to compare themselves to an imaginary perfect person.

[Darth Wong]

You are close. The three workers are all paid the same (allagory for eternal life) but each worked different amount of times (allagory for the type of sinner seen through man's eyes).

How the hell is that different from each person getting paid a different rate? If somebody at your office worked only 2 hours a day, doing exactly the same work as you, and you worked 12 hours a day, you wouldn't have a problem with him getting paid as much as you?

The point is that God has the ability to forgive (pay) whom He desires based on repentance (willing to work).

Of course the Bible says he has that ability. The Bible says he has any ability he wants. That doesn't change the fact that it's unfair.

James indicated that Faith without works is dead. There is great personal responsibility. It is why we as Christians can question a person's salvation based on their actions but cannot declare that person's salvation, only God's knows.

Blah blah blah the usual Christian babbling, totally irrelevant to my point.

That is why the true Scotsman Fallacy is a fallacy to use on Christians who declare people like Hitler as not a Christian in the true sense of the work and belief system. Christ did say that God will turn many away that called themselves Christians because they did not follow Him.

Define "the true sense of the work and belief system" in clear, unambiguous language, complete with evidence to support your definition which does not inadvertently exclude most of the Christians who have lived throughout history.

The point James is making is not that deeds save you but the deeds show that you are saved.

And what about people who do good deeds but think Jesus was a lunatic and God was an asshole? Oh yeah, they're another example of the nobility of Divine Unfairness.

[Rye]

How exactly does Christianity account for personal responsibility for one's actions? To my understanding, the whole point of "salvation not through deeds but through Christ alone" is that you're a sinner and destined for hell, but that's ok, because Jesus can take the rap for you.

It's like you're some delinquent (and you know that you are, because all the church officials say you are), but when it comes to Judgment day, it turns out that your best mate is the Magistrate's son, and he says, "Yeah, that was me," even though it wasn't, and then the Magistrate says, "Ok, I believe you, since you're my son, but I know that you're Good Boy, since you're my son, so I won't send you to hell er, jail." Because, you know, nepotism is standard operating procedure for all omni-benevolent, all-just beings.

And since Christianity doesn't seem to have any mechanism for personal responsibility for one's actions, what's stopping Christians from running around stealing and killing and raping people, since their religion tells them that Christ will forgive them just so long as they believe in him?;)

While it's fair to say that it does logically lead to that route, most christians in practise will believe that they are meant to behave well to show God they really mean it. What constitutes good behaviour is really subject to the evolving moral Zeitgeist to some extent, though the Bible offers a load of insane and immoral guidelines that we're meant to attempt to follow.

On the other hand, even indoctrinated children when asked about a biblical hero committing evil acts at God's request will immediately distinguish those acts from the exact same acts performed without religious justification. In other words, religion changes the rules as to what is morally acceptable, but society as a whole is powerful enough to influence religion to support more moral behaviour much of the time, and usually be silent/less fervent about their evil teachings the rest of the time. There are exceptions of course, but they get labelled as "radicals" and glossed over.

[Surlethe]

I just wonder who in their right minds would want to live this way. Christians seem to go through life constantly questioning their actions, worrying about what other Christians will think, etc. Who the hell needs that? It's truly living in an infantile state; if God is their father, and they feel that they must always remain in this childlike state, I would say they need to "grow up" spiritually.

There are times when fundamentalism appeals to my lazy side, because it's so goddamned easy. Everything is laid out in black and white, in good and evil. You do have to think and question as a result, maintain social standing, etc., but it's a very simple set of premises to grasp. In fact, it's so simple even a small child could understand it ... hmmm ...

The other point I hear Christians make is that they see a difference between a "sin" and the person who commits it. This is nonsense. If someone steals, he is a thief. If a priest rapes a child, then he's a pedophile. It's not a hard formula. Life is about actions, not thoughts. Actions define us. I'd wouldn't have a problem living in a town full of murderers who never actually murder anyone.

Remember that to Christians, "God judges the heart". They believe God is literally constantly eavesdropping on their innermost thoughts and making a recording, which he'll play back to them on Judgment Day. And it's not just fundies; Catholics say in their penitential rite, "I confess ... that I have sinned, in my thoughts and in my words ...".