Admiral Cain vs. Captain Janeway

[StarshipTitanic]

What phyrric victory claim you fucking brain damage? You semantic whored "the plan" to a specific, explicit spelt out plan like Trektards with their spell it out for everything! I even said later in the fucking post, none of it needs to be spelt out, and you come back at me and say there was an explicit plan like a retard.

You're a fucking douchebag StarshipTitanic. It's obvious to anybody in a total war you give one side an atom bomb they are going to annihilate each other to the bone. 8472 and the Borg were intent on destroying each other, and I give one side the means to fight back and they will fight until serious casualties emerge. That didn't happen because of unknown variables Janeway had no way of knowing, but you're so fucking stupid you want to criticize her for not seeing the future.

She gave the Borg an incredible weapon to use against the only race shown to have the strength to defeat the Borg consistently. I really don't see how that action is defensible in any way.

You're a fucking liar and apply double standards StarshipTitanic. Where are your fucking numbers to back up the millions of assimilated after the Scorpion? I am conceding nothing to you Cain wanker. Did you find the Cain porn yet?

Prove millions? I cannot. But in "Dark Frontier", the Borg assimilated a race of several hundred thousand individuals... And really, any number higher than Cain's death toll was what I wanted. It seems to be the metric you use to measure evil.

If you're only interested in frothing at the mouth and shrieking, then please take that as a victory and go away because you bore me.

But you had to turn this into a Janeway bashing thread:

It's not my fault that Janeway personally murdered someone. I think it's interesting that both Cain and Janeway shared such hobbies and I was curious if Janeway took other opportunities to do morally dubious actions.

Accessory to genocide? Getting raped? For what? Did Gina participate in the nuking of the Thirteen Colonies? She was a soldier in a fucking war, and you make it sound like she was a concentration camp guard. Did Cain need to order her rape? Is rape even a useful interrogation technique? How far up your ass is that head of yours?

She willing participated in the genocidal attack to wipe out billions of people. If she was a soldier, where was her uniform? Raping her wasn't right, either, but I would rank it less severe than what she helped with.

She later went on to murder 5500 people, although at that point she was perhaps insane.

The "Tuvix logic" doesn't fucking apply, because in that case it really was Tuvix or Tuvok + Neelix, while with the civilians Cain abandoned and stranded by stripping their FTL drives, there was no dilemma and she could have taken them!

That's a good point.

[brianeyci]

If you're only interested in frothing at the mouth and shrieking, then please take that as a victory and go away because you bore me.

You got your ass kicked pal: any dumbass can see you're applying inconsistent standards to both sides when you're asking for hard numbers of how many people Cain killed when you yourself are claiming millions killed by Janeway. I point out it doesn't fucking matter how many Cain killed, yet you still do not concede. I had to "spell it out" why Tuvix was not comparable to Janeway, and you still do not concede.

This is not a discussion where you discuss how "interesting that both Cain and Janeway shared such hobbies" but a debate, and I don't particularly feel forgiving after the bullshit you pulled on me like accusing me of emotional instability or disliking my style when this board is the king of substance over style. I'll go away because you have no substance at all and continue to hark over style, not because I'm "rabid" as you put it.

Go play in traffic. And did you find the Cain porn?

[consequences]

Cain's a far worse nutter. Her ill-advised attack on what was clearly a Cylon ambush not only resulted in her executing her XO, but also extremely high losses in valuable personnel and equipment (how many Vipers were destroyed and damaged in that attack, again? Something like sixty?! Never mind the Centurion boarding party?) - and for what? For nothing substantial. Irrespective of that "put the enemy on notice" idiocy.

Oh, there's no doubt about that. The only goal she had in mind was suicide by Cylon, and she was determined to drag the entire surviving human race down with her.

The question here is whether we are arguing intent, or results. Because the knowledge that an absolutely bug-fuck crazy modern battlestar commander with a deathwish was running around almost certainly forced the Cylons to devote significant effort to rear area security, when it could have been hunting for the Galactica and attached fleet, in addition to whatever forces they had actively hunting Pegasus. There's at least a little on-screen confirmation of this, since they had multiple Basestars babysitting the Ressurection Ship.

Their need to keep her the hell away from anything important would only increase if they took the perfectly reasonable measure of querying the computers of the civilian fleet she left stranded when they inevitably caught up with it. An outdated battlestar with minimal fighters and only a few nukes just doesn't rate as much immediate attention, especially since they had the civilian population penetrated with skinjobs to a fare-thee-well.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Considering there are groups of survivors alive on the surface of the colonies waging guerrilla war, wouldn't aiding them from space actually be a very rational decision?

The planets were virtually untouched in terms of life and property damage; even if the Cylons were using a mixture of neutron bombs and full-spectrum nerve gas, it's clear that they didn't kill more than 90%-ish of the population on the average world in their strikes. Then they occupied the colonies, and began systematically exterminating those they could find of the survivors, while putting others in their charming rape camps.

As the last military force available to those occupied worlds, isn't it potentially a defensible position to fight on using guerrilla hit-and-run tactics to try and force the Cylons to withdraw from them? It may be completely hopeless, but it is more sophisticated than "fight to the death in a pointless gesture of suicide".

And it's clear from Razor that Cain only got details about the destruction of the colonies after she jumped out. Which means that they must have been in contact with someone who was still alive in the colonies.

[Skylon]

And it's clear from Razor that Cain only got details about the destruction of the colonies after she jumped out. Which means that they must have been in contact with someone who was still alive in the colonies.

Pegasus based their info on communications intercepts (likely before everything went dead). Cain (in Razor) then sent Raptors in to scout and confirm whatever communications they had intercepted.

[consequences]

As the last military force available to those occupied worlds, isn't it potentially a defensible position to fight on using guerrilla hit-and-run tactics to try and force the Cylons to withdraw from them? It may be completely hopeless, but it is more sophisticated than "fight to the death in a pointless gesture of suicide".

Unfortunately, that isn't what we saw her do. What we saw her do was charge headlong into a trap, when the fifteen squadrons of raiders that appeared out of nowhere were in flying a formation that spells out TRAP!

Proper guerilla tactics would have been to leave right around that moment. Then there's the fact that she decided to stay after it was clear there was an on-board saboteur who'd managed to cripple their defenses. "Fight to the death in a pointless gesture of suicide" is the exact definition of what she tried to do in her first engagement.

[Gil Hamilton]

I don't think Cain knew about any survivors. I think at that point they didn't think anyone was left but them. I believe they say as much in the episode where the Pegasus is introduced.

That makes Cain almost double odious. At that point, they couldn't have known whether or not the Pegasus represented the only remaining bit of humanity in existence. In that case, then it would be her duty for her crew to get the hell out of there and survive. The Pegasus would be big enough to start a viable population elsewhere. Instead, she'd have gladly sold humanity into extinction.

[eyl]

I don't think Cain knew about any survivors. I think at that point they didn't think anyone was left but them. I believe they say as much in the episode where the Pegasus is introduced.

That makes Cain almost double odious. At that point, they couldn't have known whether or not the Pegasus represented the only remaining bit of humanity in existence. In that case, then it would be her duty for her crew to get the hell out of there and survive. The Pegasus would be big enough to start a viable population elsewhere. Instead, she'd have gladly sold humanity into extinction.

Wasn't the crew of Pegasus pretty short of women?

[Kamakazie Sith]

People can take Janeway hating a little too far at times....Cane is easily a FAR worse person then she was.

Maybe, sometimes I think people just hate Star Trek so much that their brain shuts off. I mean, according to some people the UFP is far more evil than the Galactic Empire. Now we have another example of this logic. Somehow Janeway is worse than Cain just because she was incompetent...

Apparently trying to do the right thing doesn't count for shit if you do it badly.

[Gil Hamilton]

Wasn't the crew of Pegasus pretty short of women?

I don't know. The crews of the Colonial Navy seem to have alot more women in it proportionally than your average Earth military and there were a couple thousand people on the Pegasus. Surely there are a few hundred woman on the Pegasus and most of them young, healthy, and in good shape. That's bound to be enough to start a viable colony.

[Master of Ossus]

I don't think Cain knew about any survivors. I think at that point they didn't think anyone was left but them. I believe they say as much in the episode where the Pegasus is introduced.

That makes Cain almost double odious. At that point, they couldn't have known whether or not the Pegasus represented the only remaining bit of humanity in existence. In that case, then it would be her duty for her crew to get the hell out of there and survive. The Pegasus would be big enough to start a viable population elsewhere. Instead, she'd have gladly sold humanity into extinction.

Fiske was also REALLY happy to find the civilians because it meant that someone else had survived the attack. That does seem to indicate that they thought everyone else had been killed.

[Master of Ossus]

Apparently trying to do the right thing doesn't count for shit if you do it badly.

I don't really have a problem with that reasoning. People who are dumb and lazy are better, in business, than people who are dumb and work hard because they don't hurt you the way that people who are dumb and hardworking do. It's sad, but it's true in management. Since the question deals with who we would rather serve under, rather than who is a better person or who we would rather have a beer with, I think there's a lot to be said about incompetence.

[Bounty]

Since the question deals with who we would rather serve under, rather than who is a better person or who we would rather have a beer with, I think there's a lot to be said about incompetence.

Who was responsible for more idiotic, reprehensible actions while far from civilization?

[Kamakazie Sith]

Apparently trying to do the right thing doesn't count for shit if you do it badly.

I don't really have a problem with that reasoning. People who are dumb and lazy are better, in business, than people who are dumb and work hard because they don't hurt you the way that people who are dumb and hardworking do. It's sad, but it's true in management. Since the question deals with who we would rather serve under, rather than who is a better person or who we would rather have a beer with, I think there's a lot to be said about incompetence.

That's true, and I didn't do a very good job of communicating what I meant. I mean that apparently doing the right thing badly not only makes you incompetent, but it makes you worse than someone who does the wrong thing well. That's what I meant to say...

[StarshipTitanic]

I don't think Cain knew about any survivors. I think at that point they didn't think anyone was left but them. I believe they say as much in the episode where the Pegasus is introduced.

That makes Cain almost double odious. At that point, they couldn't have known whether or not the Pegasus represented the only remaining bit of humanity in existence. In that case, then it would be her duty for her crew to get the hell out of there and survive. The Pegasus would be big enough to start a viable population elsewhere. Instead, she'd have gladly sold humanity into extinction.

I think there was a line about a few scouts being sent back to the colonies and finding no hint of a surviving military. It's pretty obvious Cain had no realistic aim of supporting guerrillas since the Galactica found her somewhere that was beyond the maximum range of Colonial navigation multiple times over. Apparently, her crew was a bit too good to make suicide by Cylon a quick affair.

That's true, and I didn't do a very good job of communicating what I meant. I mean that apparently doing the right thing badly not only makes you incompetent, but it makes you worse than someone who does the wrong thing well. That's what I meant to say...

That statement makes no attempt at appreciating the scale of Janeway or Cain's actions. And I don't see how some of Janeway's actions were the right thing to do.

[Kamakazie Sith]

That statement makes no attempt at appreciating the scale of Janeway or Cain's actions. And I don't see how some of Janeway's actions were the right thing to do.

Maybe that's because the statement was meant to discuss the scale of their actions. It was a statement about the mindset some individuals have.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Maybe that's because the statement wasn't meant to discuss the scale of their actions. It was a statement about the mindset some individuals have.

Corrected in bold.

What's the one action that Janeway did that you could say without a doubt was an evil act?

I've heard the attempted murder of the Equinox crewman? I agree she went to far in that instance because she was going to allow the creature to kill him, but she was doing it to save the lives of her crew, and the creatures that were being used for fuel. Oh yeah let's not forget that it would have been her duty to stop the Equinox.

She did go too far though, but it was nothing compared to Cain. Did she shoot her XO for deliberately going against her decision? Think about that. Cain's XO just refused to repeat her order. Janeway's XO went completely against it, and she did not shoot him. Both orders were illegal, but Janeway was drunk with anger. Cain was insane...

[The Yosemite Bear]

mind you sinbad is a scariier captain than both of them put together.

[Aaron]

Wasn't the crew of Pegasus pretty short of women?

According to the Battlestar Wiki the Pegasus had approx 1,750 personnel on it when it joins Galactica. Assuming that 30% of the crew are woman (the aprox percentage of woman in the RL military) that gives us 525 woman and 1225 men. If you really want to start a colony using these numbers than you can have the woman take multiple partners until you get enough people to allow single pairings. I won't claim that it'll be sunshine and roses for the woman but it can be done.

[consequences]

Wasn't the crew of Pegasus pretty short of women?

According to the Battlestar Wiki the Pegasus had approx 1,750 personnel on it when it joins Galactica. Assuming that 30% of the crew are woman (the aprox percentage of woman in the RL military) that gives us 525 woman and 1225 men. If you really want to start a colony using these numbers than you can have the woman take multiple partners until you get enough people to allow single pairings. I won't claim that it'll be sunshine and roses for the woman but it can be done.

This means it could easily have had 2500+ prior to running into the ambush of terminal stupidity with its 940-odd casualties IIRC. While we don't know how many she drafted exactly, we also don't know how many died in later skirmishes, or offed themselves when they realised what they were following, what they'd done, and how entirely hopeless their situation was.

[Aaron]

This means it could easily have had 2500+ prior to running into the ambush of terminal stupidity with its 940-odd casualties IIRC. While we don't know how many she drafted exactly, we also don't know how many died in later skirmishes, or offed themselves when they realised what they were following, what they'd done, and how entirely hopeless their situation was.

Reading the references on the bootom of the Pegasus page it states that they lost approx 700 crewman at the fleet yards attack and a further 100 at the comms relay.

So if they had just buggered off to form a colony right after the attack, they'd be in a better poistion. And even better if they had found the civvies and then fucked off.

[Sidewinder]

I mean that apparently doing the right thing badly not only makes you incompetent, but it makes you worse than someone who does the wrong thing well. That's what I meant to say...

By the unfortunate standards of TNG and its successors, doing the right thing sometimes means letting innocent people die despite having the means to save them.

[Ghost Rider]

I mean that apparently doing the right thing badly not only makes you incompetent, but it makes you worse than someone who does the wrong thing well. That's what I meant to say...

By the unfortunate standards of TNG and its successors, doing the right thing sometimes means letting innocent people die despite having the means to save them.

Fucking A, can you at least present something JANEWAY DID. This is a pure off tangent bit to go "See Picard did this, and he was upholding the Prime Directive and because Janeway is a SF captain she would do the same thing, maybe, even though the circumstances are different on both ships and captains.".

Given Janeway's purely haphazard handling of the PD, can you not find something directly relevant to HER?

[Baal]

What is even more disturbing than everything that Cain did was that her crew was ready and willing to do all of it.

Sure they were raping a Cylon but what proof did they really have? It still completely looks and acts like a woman and only Baltar ever came up with a way to tell humans from Cylons.

Second she ordered the murder the families of civilians. She did not pull the trigger every time but gave orders that her crew had no problem following.

She condemned thousands more people to death by stranding them in non-functional ships. She did not strip them of parts she gave orders that were followed.

Cain was not only insane evil incarnate but she had been for such a long time that she had over time gathered around her a crew that had no problem being as bad as she was.

[consequences]

What is even more disturbing than everything that Cain did was that her crew was ready and willing to do all of it.

Sure they were raping a Cylon but what proof did they really have? It still completely looks and acts like a woman and only Baltar ever came up with a way to tell humans from Cylons.

Second she ordered the murder the families of civilians. She did not pull the trigger every time but gave orders that her crew had no problem following.

She condemned thousands more people to death by stranding them in non-functional ships. She did not strip them of parts she gave orders that were followed.

Cain was not only insane evil incarnate but she had been for such a long time that she had over time gathered around her a crew that had no problem being as bad as she was.

This is where the execution of her XO comes in. Remember, her second XO questioned her orders regarding the civilian fleet, but backed the hell off because he didn't want to get shot. As long as no one was willing to frag the bitch and take the consequences of that, she'd be able to continue on as she was.