Ancient China vs Medieval Europe

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-01-18 03:45pm

How well equipped are Chinese armies for a siege? Remember that big castles could last for years.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2003-01-18 03:46pm

Admiral Griffith wrote:At which point the six kingdoms ally against their common enemy, waste Mongolia, and put Gengis Khan's head on a pike in the middle of where his palace formerly stood.

Yeah, sure. Militaries composed almost entirely of peasant conscripts and heavy cavalry with moron generals are going to threaten a highly disciplined and regimented light cavalry organization lead by some of the greatest commanders that ever lived. We know exactly how well European-style fighting worked against the Mongols--not at all. The only way that the Europeans will even be able to challenge the Mongols is with canny use of terrain to neutralize their inherent advantages, and even then Mongol reconnaissance will make such surprise almost impossible to pull off.

Anyway, the very idea that the Europeans will unite is laughable. In actual fact, the Europeans were more willing to trust the devil they didn't know than the one they did--see their overtures to the Mongols on behalf of the crusader states. I'm willing to bet that the Europeans will all fall over themselves with overtures to the Mongols, hoping to play this asiatic barbarians against their continental enemies. The horse peoples will be able to wipe them out piecemeal.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2003-01-18 03:49pm

HemlockGrey wrote:How well equipped are Chinese armies for a siege? Remember that big castles could last for years.

The Chinese knew how to lay seige, and they had superior siege engineering. That said, siege engineering meant basically jack shit until the rise of the cannon, the only effective means of bringing down walls being undermining.

More importantly, the Chinese are good at logistics, which should allow them to reduce European castles as they come across them.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-01-18 03:50pm

HemlockGrey wrote:How well equipped are Chinese armies for a siege? Remember that big castles could last for years.

If you have owned every army outside the castles all you have to do is sit around for a few years. With no relief prospects then you can be patient.

omegaLancer · Post by **omegaLancer** » 2003-01-18 04:51pm

It doubtful that Europe would stand a chance.

The Anicent Chinese had not only invented the Crossbow, but also deploy horse archers.

Just look at the diferent in tactics. For the most part Europe entire armies was geared toward slow moving heavy Cavarly. Most of the rest of the Army was gear to support the knights.

Usually it was archers to soften up the infantry and then a knight waded in.

While the Chinese of Wu time, complex tactics were develop. Just look at the Fame "Art of War "by Sun Tzu. At this time the Chinese had already develop and mastered the art.

The best example of what would have happen is the Mongal invasion of Russia and Poland. The Mongel slaughter every army sent again them.
Only the untimely death of the present Khan cause them to turn back.
If not European history would have been very different

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-18 04:54pm

Admiral Griffith wrote:Just a list of Wu, Shu, Wei, and Yellow Scarf/Turban heroes:

Cao Cao, Da Qiao, Dian Wei, Diao Chan, Dong Zhuo, Fu Xi, Gan Ning, Guan Yu, Huang Gai, Huang Zhong, Jiang Wei, Lu Bei, Lu Bu, Lu Meng, Lu Xun, Ma Chao, Meng Huo, Nu Wa, Sima Yi, Sun Ce, Sun Jian, Sun Quan, Sun Shang Xiang, Taishi Ci, Wei Yan, Xiahou Dun, Xiahou Yuan, Xiao Qiao, Xu Huang, Xu Zhu, Yuan Shao, Zhang Fei, Zhang He, Zhang Jiao, Zhang Liao, Zhao Yun, Zhen Ji, Zhou Yu, and Zhuge Liang.

I apologize if any of these heroes never existed.

ROFL...someone's been playing Dynasty Warriors 3. Some of them are semi-mythical, meaning we're not sure if they existed or not (like King Arthur).

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-01-18 05:03pm

Incidentally, can the Chinese cross the Channel?

I, myself, would like to throw in the Italian region, Spain, and the Eastern European regions to even it out.

Oh, and Pablo, weren't the Mongols eventually stopped by Polish/Hungarian pikemen?

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » 2003-01-18 06:01pm

No, they were stopped because the Kahn had died, and by their laws the Mongols had to return to Mongolia to elect a new leader. The Mongols were on the doorsteps of Vienna, and would've turned Paris into a nice grazing field for their horses.

Admiral Griffith · Post by **Admiral Griffith** » 2003-01-18 06:15pm

HemlockGrey wrote:I only skimmed the posts, but I wonder- do the Chinese have anything that can take or destroy the castles of medieval Europe?

Their seige weapons are on par if not better than European ones.

Admiral Griffith · Post by **Admiral Griffith** » 2003-01-18 06:23pm

The Dark wrote:
Admiral Griffith wrote:Just a list of Wu, Shu, Wei, and Yellow Scarf/Turban heroes:

Cao Cao, Da Qiao, Dian Wei, Diao Chan, Dong Zhuo, Fu Xi, Gan Ning, Guan Yu, Huang Gai, Huang Zhong, Jiang Wei, Lu Bei, Lu Bu, Lu Meng, Lu Xun, Ma Chao, Meng Huo, Nu Wa, Sima Yi, Sun Ce, Sun Jian, Sun Quan, Sun Shang Xiang, Taishi Ci, Wei Yan, Xiahou Dun, Xiahou Yuan, Xiao Qiao, Xu Huang, Xu Zhu, Yuan Shao, Zhang Fei, Zhang He, Zhang Jiao, Zhang Liao, Zhao Yun, Zhen Ji, Zhou Yu, and Zhuge Liang.

I apologize if any of these heroes never existed.
ROFL...someone's been playing Dynasty Warriors 3. Some of them are semi-mythical, meaning we're not sure if they existed or not (like King Arthur).

It is true that all of those names have been extracted from Dynasty Warriors 3, but most of the important ones existed, so it doesn't matter that much. At least I haven't gone around claiming that the Europeans don't stand a chance against the Chinese heroes' Musou attacks.

kheegster · Post by **kheegster** » 2003-01-18 06:28pm

The Dark wrote:
Admiral Griffith wrote:Just a list of Wu, Shu, Wei, and Yellow Scarf/Turban heroes:

Cao Cao, Da Qiao, Dian Wei, Diao Chan, Dong Zhuo, Fu Xi, Gan Ning, Guan Yu, Huang Gai, Huang Zhong, Jiang Wei, Lu Bei, Lu Bu, Lu Meng, Lu Xun, Ma Chao, Meng Huo, Nu Wa, Sima Yi, Sun Ce, Sun Jian, Sun Quan, Sun Shang Xiang, Taishi Ci, Wei Yan, Xiahou Dun, Xiahou Yuan, Xiao Qiao, Xu Huang, Xu Zhu, Yuan Shao, Zhang Fei, Zhang He, Zhang Jiao, Zhang Liao, Zhao Yun, Zhen Ji, Zhou Yu, and Zhuge Liang.

I apologize if any of these heroes never existed.
ROFL...someone's been playing Dynasty Warriors 3. Some of them are semi-mythical, meaning we're not sure if they existed or not (like King Arthur).

To be more precise, they are characters based on the novel "Romance of the Three Kingdoms", by...damn, can't remember the author's name. The novel however was based on historical accounts, so most of the historical characters existed, in the same way Napoleon, Alexander 1, Balgration, Kutuzov etc. actually existed even though they were in Tolstoy's "War and Peace".

kheegster · Post by **kheegster** » 2003-01-18 06:32pm

Griffith, why are you pitting medieval European armies against Chinese armies several centuries before? IIRC the period of the 3 kindoms were around 300 AD. How about using the Song dynasty from around 1000AD? By then China is completely unified, and I'm sure that military technology is better by then. The only bad thing is that you get less experienced leaders...Yue Fei etc. may be great, but I don't think they are as brilliant as Kong Ming etc.

Heheheh, how about using the Liang Shan Po brigands?

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2003-01-18 06:57pm

HemlockGrey wrote:Oh, and Pablo, weren't the Mongols eventually stopped by Polish/Hungarian pikemen?

No. The efforts of the Europeans were in vain, and anyway infantry were only good against the Mongols as a roadblock; pikemen had no actual ability to inflict harm on the steppe horsemen. The Mongol tactic was to stand off and shoot up enemy infantry with their composite bows, while the European archery used inferior weapons and was mostly impotent to return the favor. When the Western heavy cav attempted to close and engage, the Mongols faded back--until the enemy overextended himself, at which point he was surrounded and cut to ribbons.

The Mongols destroyed the two most powerful armies in central Europe without too much trouble and then quartered on the Hungarian plains to graze their horses. At this point, the Khan died, and the Mongols picked up shop and went home, and they did not return. The Polish like to think that their heroic resistance shook Mongol confidence and convinced them to leave, but it was purely political.

I think the only army which would pose a threat to the Mongols during the middle ages in Europe would be England, with their longbowmen and superior (to France, at least) tactics. And even then, it probably wouldn't be enough.

The problem that European armies had was that their equipment had become over-specialized to their own type of fighting. The Western style of in-your-face melee with archery support wasn't necessarily less effective, it was just that their weapons and armor were designed to fight only that kind of battle, all other kinds of war be damned. Against an enemy who avoided close contact until his victory was assured, European armies were all but useless.

Witness the catastrophies at Crecy and Agincourt. The French attempted to close to melee range, and the British refused. Who won?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-18 07:06pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
HemlockGrey wrote:Oh, and Pablo, weren't the Mongols eventually stopped by Polish/Hungarian pikemen?
No. The efforts of the Europeans were in vain, and anyway infantry were only good against the Mongols as a roadblock; pikemen had no actual ability to inflict harm on the steppe horsemen. The Mongol tactic was to stand off and shoot up enemy infantry with their composite bows, while the European archery used inferior weapons and was mostly impotent to return the favor. When the Western heavy cav attempted to close and engage, the Mongols faded back--until the enemy overextended himself, at which point he was surrounded and cut to ribbons.

The Mongols destroyed the two most powerful armies in central Europe without too much trouble and then quartered on the Hungarian plains to graze their horses. At this point, the Khan died, and the Mongols picked up shop and went home, and they did not return. The Polish like to think that their heroic resistance shook Mongol confidence and convinced them to leave, but it was purely political.

I think the only army which would pose a threat to the Mongols during the middle ages in Europe would be England, with their longbowmen and superior (to France, at least) tactics. And even then, it probably wouldn't be enough.

The problem that European armies had was that their equipment had become over-specialized to their own type of fighting. The Western style of in-your-face melee with archery support wasn't necessarily less effective, it was just that their weapons and armor were designed to fight only that kind of battle, all other kinds of war be damned. Against an enemy who avoided close contact until his victory was assured, European armies were all but useless.

Witness the catastrophies at Crecy and Agincourt. The French attempted to close to melee range, and the British refused. Who won?

I doubt the English could field the numbers needed to defeat the Mongols on mainland Europe. They could very likely hold England though, Mongol amphibious operations never worked very well.

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » 2003-01-18 07:11pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Pablo Sanchez wrote:
HemlockGrey wrote:Oh, and Pablo, weren't the Mongols eventually stopped by Polish/Hungarian pikemen?
No. The efforts of the Europeans were in vain, and anyway infantry were only good against the Mongols as a roadblock; pikemen had no actual ability to inflict harm on the steppe horsemen. The Mongol tactic was to stand off and shoot up enemy infantry with their composite bows, while the European archery used inferior weapons and was mostly impotent to return the favor. When the Western heavy cav attempted to close and engage, the Mongols faded back--until the enemy overextended himself, at which point he was surrounded and cut to ribbons.

The Mongols destroyed the two most powerful armies in central Europe without too much trouble and then quartered on the Hungarian plains to graze their horses. At this point, the Khan died, and the Mongols picked up shop and went home, and they did not return. The Polish like to think that their heroic resistance shook Mongol confidence and convinced them to leave, but it was purely political.

I think the only army which would pose a threat to the Mongols during the middle ages in Europe would be England, with their longbowmen and superior (to France, at least) tactics. And even then, it probably wouldn't be enough.

The problem that European armies had was that their equipment had become over-specialized to their own type of fighting. The Western style of in-your-face melee with archery support wasn't necessarily less effective, it was just that their weapons and armor were designed to fight only that kind of battle, all other kinds of war be damned. Against an enemy who avoided close contact until his victory was assured, European armies were all but useless.

Witness the catastrophies at Crecy and Agincourt. The French attempted to close to melee range, and the British refused. Who won?
I doubt the English could field the numbers needed to defeat the Mongols on mainland Europe. They could very likely hold England though, Mongol amphibious operations never worked very well.

They'd probably be content with sacking mainland Europe. From what I remember, they'd certainly wouldn't want a repeat of the failed invasion of Japan.

kheegster · Post by **kheegster** » 2003-01-18 07:15pm

Balrog wrote: They'd probably be content with sacking mainland Europe. From what I remember, they'd certainly wouldn't want a repeat of the failed invasion of Japan.

Well, the gods won't be kind enough towards England to send a kamikaze or two onto the Mongol fleet, would they.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-01-18 07:18pm

Well, the gods won't be kind enough towards England to send a kamikaze or two onto the Mongol fleet, would they.

No, but the Channel storms can be pretty rough.

AWACS · Post by **AWACS** » 2003-01-18 07:48pm

HemlockGrey wrote:
Well, the gods won't be kind enough towards England to send a kamikaze or two onto the Mongol fleet, would they.
No, but the Channel storms can be pretty rough.

Which didn't stop the Romans. Or the Normans.

The invasion of Japan failed not because the Mongols sucked at amphibeous assault, but because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time and got hit by oh A HURRICANE. If those ships had actually made it accross the Japs would have been shafted, and they [the Japs] knew it, hence why they revered the divine shimpu wind or kamikaze as it became known, believing it to have been sent for their protection.

However since British waters don't have hurricanes, the British Isles would not have the fortune of Japan. The golden horde would run rampant from Land's end to John o Groats. After consolidating great Britain they'd look westards again and invade Ireland. They'd stretch their empire from Vladivostok to Galway bay, from the Pacific to the Atlantic, and nothing would stop them.

Admiral Griffith · Post by **Admiral Griffith** » 2003-01-18 09:16pm

kheegan wrote:Griffith, why are you pitting medieval European armies against Chinese armies several centuries before? IIRC the period of the 3 kindoms were around 300 AD. How about using the Song dynasty from around 1000AD? By then China is completely unified, and I'm sure that military technology is better by then. The only bad thing is that you get less experienced leaders...Yue Fei etc. may be great, but I don't think they are as brilliant as Kong Ming etc.

Heheheh, how about using the Liang Shan Po brigands?

Because the Europeans would get slaughtered by them. I wanted a more even match.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2003-01-18 10:02pm

I looked at the first post to this thread and my first though was "Mongols slaughter the whole lot." Seems I was beaten to it. lol

brothersinarm · Post by **brothersinarm** » 2003-01-18 10:26pm

the mongols would have eventually be defeated. With every battle they're losing men and sooner than later their army would be too small to fight and they'd would have to return to mongolia to recoup.

brothersinarm · Post by **brothersinarm** » 2003-01-18 10:27pm

chinese primates? glorious battle? Where's the annilate each other option?

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » 2003-01-18 11:10pm

brothersinarm wrote:the mongols would have eventually be defeated. With every battle they're losing men and sooner than later their army would be too small to fight and they'd would have to return to mongolia to recoup.

It's more likely they'd run out of arrows before men ^.^

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » 2003-01-18 11:16pm

Does everyone really think that the Romans, the Europeans, the Chinese, etc... would have used the same tactics they traditionally used against enemies they didn't traditionally fight? I really think you people are NOT giving midevil europe and especially Rome the credit they deserve.

One True Spoon · Post by **One True Spoon** » 2003-01-18 11:28pm

I'd like to see this on a larger scale, say, including The Eastern Roman Empire(Byzantium) and The Norse for Europe, and the Huns, Scythians and the Parthians for Asia.

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