Babylon 5 what-if (Severed Dreams)

[Uraniun235]

In the episode Severed Dreams, Babylon 5 breaks away from Earth. Earthforce attempts to retake Babylon 5; their first wave is successfully fought off, while their second wave is deterred into withdrawal by the arrival of Minbari reinforcements.


What if: instead of meekly turning and running, the second wave of Earth cruisers decides to ensure that Babylon 5 could not threaten President Clark. They strike Babylon 5, and before the Minbari can stop them, B5 is destroyed.


Would the other governments attack Earth in retaliation for the murder of thousands of their citizens? Would they file paper protests? Would Clark lose too much support to remain in power? Would the Shadows be assured of victory in the aftermath?

[Stark]

I think it'd both remove any organised resistance to the Shadows and confirm Clark in power. All the indies would be too busy squabbling to do anything effective against the EA, let alone the Shadows.

The whole 'just blow the damn place up' angle was even more obviously handwaved away at the end of third season: oh noes our base sploded, let's not carve B5 up and leave, let's just leave the centre of the only effective resistance alone.

[Anguirus]

Delenn is likely to use B5's destruction as a rallying cry to unite the League into an anti-Shadow coalition, though it may take her until after the Shadows begin attacking openly. Still, the destruction of B5 at this stage will kill few Rangers and make no dent whatsoever in White Star production. Delenn will simply replace Sheridan, as Justin predicted.

Without Sheridan's fateful meeting with Lorien on Z'ha'dum, my prediction is that with the help of the Vorlons Delenn manages to beat the Shadows into relative submission, starting the cycle over again. (The Centauri are probably fucked, though...the Shadows have no motivation to leave Centauri Prime and they already have their claws in Refa and Cartagia, so they hide ships on their planet and start turning the Centauri into a servant race. This won't do the Narns any good either.) Then, with what's left of her fleet, she goes and kicks the crap out of the Earth Alliance, installs some relatively capable Earth politician (Luchenko?) to run things, and then promptly becomes occupied with the civil war on Minbar. She probably assumes a position of power afterward and uses the Minbari military to keep things as stable as she possibly can. Without Sheridan and B5 there will be no Interstellar Alliance, but if Delenn maintains close ties with the League and builds up those relations, the Shadows probably have a much harder time the next time the cycle starts up.

(This all assumes that Kosh somehow escapes the destruction of B5. If he is killed, the Vorlons will likely destroy Earth, and possibly launch a punitive war against the Shadows for using one of "their races" to "break the rules." At this point in time the Vorlons do NOT want B5 destroyed...in fact the draft before the final draft of Severed Dreams, which I own, has a GIGANTIC Vorlon fleet come screaming in along with Delenn to protect the station.)

[Stark]

I hear uniting the indies is really easy and they're eager to form an anti-Shadow coalition. Even if it sets them back diplomatically a few months (by magically 'replacing' Sheridan somehow), it's still worth the five seconds of battlecrab time it'd take.

If you want to play the silly SG1-esque 'lol plotshields' thing, just massively damage B5 (cut off the entire front and the reactor, for instance). It ruins it's strategic power, doesn't bring in the hilarious Vorlon doom fleet, and largely discredits their resistance organisation. Even the EA guys could have done that.

Indeed, aside from the 'blow-up fusion reactor' model they have, you'd think that reactor would be target number one.

[Anguirus]

In response to Stark's observation that B5 is the center of the only effective resistance...this is technically true, but it is already too late to blow the place to smithereens. With the B5-verse's "tachyon" instant communication, Delenn can coordinate attacks with the LoNW commanders, or failing that, at least find another meeting place. In fact, a site within the League itself would be a better staging area anyway. Once the Babylon Treaty was signed the groundwork for the Alliance was already in place: B5 itself was just a staging area and not even a particularly well-situated one.

Blowing up B5 in "Z'ha'dum" would have done nothing except kill off a couple of capable commanders (Ivanova, Delenn) and a bunch of off-duty crewmen. And while killing Ivanova and Delenn would be a BIG deal, the right personality could use their deaths as a rallying cry and keep the races all united anyway.

Far more effective would have been to target the League even more aggressively, overtaxing them and targeting pro-Alliance leaders. The Drakh almost tore the Alliance apart just by targeting shipping lanes and pointing fingers. In fact, the single biggest thing the Shadows could have done militarily would have been to destroy the White Star shipyards before a significant force was made, but either the Rangers successfully concealed them from Shadow intelligence or they were afraid of killing Vorlon advisors.

[Stark]

While the Whitestar production was independent and begun quite some time before Severed Dreams, I'm not sure they're a war-winner by themselves. I haven't seen any of season 4, but even with the indies onside they had trouble with just the pissweak Shadow attacks that were going on in season 3. Without their B5 coordination and solidarity, I'm not seeing how they could perform as well in that phase.

While nobody is indispensible, in B5 everyone except the B5 command crew is basically incompetent (and they ain't always so hot either). Sheridan is clearly Saruman the way his bizarre rants make everyone do what he wants, and I'm not sure you could just grab War Hero #432 and say 'we got a new one, this one has better hair, let's fight the Shadows'.

[Anguirus]

I hear uniting the indies is really easy and they're eager to form an anti-Shadow coalition.

They were eager to form an anti-Shadow coalition. For all Sheridan's whining, they were absolutely desperate to effectively fight the Shadows and very quickly caught on to Sheridan's idea to unite them. They had done exactly the same thing against the Dilgar within living memory.

It's when the Shadows appeared to disappear that the coalition fell apart. The Shadows made themselves just enough of a threat to make everybody scared, but they seemed unwilling to just, say, show up in the skies of the Drazi homeworld and utterly remove their ability to make war. Under those circumstances, a chimpanzee could have united the League worlds. It seems silly to call them stupid for not destroying B5...they are far more stupid for creating a situation in which they were attacking openly, but not striking decisively anywhere.

It ruins it's strategic power, doesn't bring in the hilarious Vorlon doom fleet, and largely discredits their resistance organisation. Even the EA guys could have done that.

I'm not sure if the EA is capable of doing this without killing thousands and essentially leading to the OP situation anyway. In fact, I'm not even sure if the OP situation is feasible what with B5, dozens of friendly Starfuries, Alexander, and now the Minbari still in the fight, but it's an interesting situation to think about regardless.

And for whatever reason, the Shadows were very cautious about blowing up anything that could be "useful." Their presence at the station didn't stop Sheridan from blowing millions of their race to kingdom come, so they grabbed Garibaldi and cut their losses. It's possible that they were actually going to throw in the towel completely for another period of years until the Vorlons forced their hand.

[Stark]

Wait, he killed millions of Shadows? I've shyed away from season 4 (lol jesus lol) but I didn't realise the actual Shadow population was so high.

And I remember in S3 the indies were constantly pissing and moaning, not contributing to fleets, being pissy when they didn't get priority, and basically all the things a coalition always does. Sure they wanted security, but they wanted their own security.

[Anguirus]

You haven't seen Season 4? Holy shit, man. That season is, uh, kind of a big deal.

While the Whitestar production was independent and begun quite some time before Severed Dreams, I'm not sure they're a war-winner by themselves.

The Rangers + White Stars are a HUGE deal, and even after suffering huge losses in season 4 with no resurgance in production, by season 5 they, on their own they trump any single military except for the Minbari. They are enough of a tipping point to make me think that the battle in "Shadow Dancing" would not have been won without them.

Without their B5 coordination and solidarity, I'm not seeing how they could perform as well in that phase.

They did use B5 to coordinate, but nothing about B5 makes the place itself essential to doing so. Without B5 the League might not have come together in the first place, but by "Z'ha'dum" it was too late to avoid this. Delenn could have run the war from a Sharlin at that point.

While nobody is indispensible, in B5 everyone except the B5 command crew is basically incompetent (and they ain't always so hot either). Sheridan is clearly Saruman the way his bizarre rants make everyone do what he wants, and I'm not sure you could just grab War Hero #432 and say 'we got a new one, this one has better hair, let's fight the Shadows'.

Maybe not, but the Shadows thought Sheridan was so many atoms when they left B5. They had also taken Garibaldi in order to turn him, and they were about to lie low for long enough so that the coalition almost flung itself apart on its own early in Season 4.

[Anguirus]

Wait, he killed millions of Shadows? I've shyed away from season 4 (lol jesus lol) but I didn't realise the actual Shadow population was so high.

This happens in "Z'ha'dum." He drops fusion bombs on the Shadows' major city. This is the worst thing that could possibly have happened to the Shadows in the war...aside from the massive amount of death (and this is a race unused to dying), Sheridan's sacrifice inspires the Vorlons to lauch a holy war with the goal of exterminating all Shadow influence from the galaxy.

But...ok, this is crazy. If you haven't seen the first six eps of Season 4, the whole Shadow War will not make sense to you. For better or for worse, that's when you find out why things went down the way they did. And honestly, if Season 4 isn't worth watching at least once, then none of the other seasons are either. So much awesome happens in that season that Sheridan going a little power-mad is forgivable!

And I remember in S3 the indies were constantly pissing and moaning, not contributing to fleets, being pissy when they didn't get priority, and basically all the things a coalition always does. Sure they wanted security, but they wanted their own security.

Well, in seasons 4 and 5 they are worse in every way! The extreme (yet survivable) peril of the Shadows gets them working together real fast. Again, the Dilgar did the same thing: make the whole League mad enough and you get steamrollered. Without the Shadow threat Sheridan and Delenn have their work cut out for them keeping them together in what becomes the Alliance...but without the outside threat they wouldn't have gotten used to working together in the first place.

I mean, Sheridan convinces them to sign the Babylon Treaty in the span of one episode, and convinces them to join his fleet in the first fifteen minutes of another. The League is easy in Season 3.

[Stark]

The Rangers + White Stars are a HUGE deal, and even after suffering huge losses in season 4 with no resurgance in production, by season 5 they, on their own they trump any single military except for the Minbari. They are enough of a tipping point to make me think that the battle in "Shadow Dancing" would not have been won without them.

That's what, a year later after serial production cranks up? That's hardly comparable to the few dozen they had earlier.

They did use B5 to coordinate, but nothing about B5 makes the place itself essential to doing so. Without B5 the League might not have come together in the first place, but by "Z'ha'dum" it was too late to avoid this. Delenn could have run the war from a Sharlin at that point.

So why didn't she? Why all the song and dance about their amusing war room?

Maybe not, but the Shadows thought Sheridan was so many atoms when they left B5. They had also taken Garibaldi in order to turn him, and they were about to lie low for long enough so that the coalition almost flung itself apart on its own early in Season 4.

Wait you're saying B5 and Sheridan are disposable and his disappearance for a while nearly destroyed the coalition? I don't get it.

The impression I have is the Shadow slow-ass progress and ship recovery was to stay relatively concealed until they're ready to shoot the Vorlons in one go. If the war got hot faster, wouldn't the millions of Shadows just speed it up and get their old ships back at once, since hiding is no longer a problem? Everyone seemed pretty sure that without years of preparation and luck the Shadows would rape all the younger races no problems.

[Stark]

Do they ever SAY he killed millions of Shadows? I mean, he crashes a ship full of bombs into a hole with a city in it. Was that really it? If he'd had two ships full of bombs would the war have been over? Was it really that pathetic? Hell, later they could have thrown a hundred Whitestars at them!

Bah. Now I have to watch all the silly Jesus stuff in season 4. There's $30 I'll never get back.

[Anguirus]

That's what, a year later after serial production cranks up? That's hardly comparable to the few dozen they had earlier.

Their first production run was probably a few hundred, and it was the only production run they ever had, probably because the Vorlon advisors split. The Alliance uses a constant, dwindling number of White Stars from Season 3 on. That's still enough to knock over most of the younger races' militaries, since they are incredibly difficult to target and pack amazing firepower for their size.

So why didn't she? Why all the song and dance about their amusing war room?

What song and dance? They built a war room: that's it. I never said that they don't use B5 as a base of operations, I'm just saying that nothing makes the station an indispensable one.

Wait you're saying B5 and Sheridan are disposable and his disappearance for a while nearly destroyed the coalition? I don't get it.

The disappearance of the Shadows nearly destroyed the coalition. Everyone except the Rangers figured "Ok, Sheridan butt-fucked the Shadows, time to go home."

The impression I have is the Shadow slow-ass progress and ship recovery was to stay relatively concealed until they're ready to shoot the Vorlons in one go.

Well...you're wrong. That is not their plan at all, though it's a good guess with the information available to you.

If the war got hot faster, wouldn't the millions of Shadows just speed it up and get their old ships back at once, since hiding is no longer a problem?

The Shadows already possess the brute force to crush all of the younger races simultaneously.

So do the Vorlons.

They are not interested in doing so. Why? Well...it's in those first six eps of season 4.

Everyone seemed pretty sure that without years of preparation and luck the Shadows would rape all the younger races no problems.

That is what Delenn was told by the Vorlons, yes. And the Shadows certainly have enough of their ships operational by, well, probably the beginning of season 1, to do that. They have MILLIONS of years of technological edge, and they have MORE THAN ONE operational planet-killer as of late season 3/early season 4.

It's not only that they are sparing B5, they are sparing practically everything. They aren't fighting a war like we would understand it. Their goal is NOT universal annihilation: Delenn was lied to.

[Anguirus]

Do they ever SAY he killed millions of Shadows? I mean, he crashes a ship full of bombs into a hole with a city in it. Was that really it? If he'd had two ships full of bombs would the war have been over? Was it really that pathetic? Hell, later they could have thrown a hundred Whitestars at them!

Millions is just my estimate considering the apparent population density of that city was. Of course, it could have been largely servant races. Still, from what Vir says in the first episode of season four, it sounds like Sheridan caused extreme, possibly unprecedented casualties among the Shadows, and he certainly turned "their biggest city" into a hole in the ground.

And Delenn's proposed strategy for continuing the war actually is a massive attack on Z'ha'dum while the Shadows are terrorized and disorganized...however, we learn early in season 4 that Z'ha'dum has a very effective orbital defense system.

Bah. Now I have to watch all the silly Jesus stuff in season 4. There's $30 I'll never get back. Laughing

It's only $30 in Australia? Don't complain!

[Uraniun235]

It's not only that they are sparing B5, they are sparing practically everything. They aren't fighting a war like we would understand it. Their goal is NOT universal annihilation: Delenn was lied to.

I just flashed back to that old Star Trek TOS episode with the Excalbian rock-people who wanted to watch Kirk and Spock and Surak and President Lincoln face off against some villains, to watch "the drama play out, and reveal whether good or evil is stronger".

[Stark]

Oh I already know about their retarded psychodrama through proxies. As much as shit like King Arthur was silly, I'm not eager to be put through that sort of thing. The Shadow's campaign of stimulating conflict was working just fine (although it's still pretty stupid since it the Minbari are the only guys they need to worry about and the only guys they didn't mess with) and I'm not seeing how the loss of B5 would have made it any harder. Unless they liked having their ridiculous stage to perform against, which makes all of their sabre-rattling pretty laughable.

[Anguirus]

Well, according to Bester, the Shadows left B5 intact "on the theory that it could be used later." I'm just saying that even blowing it away would not have instantly fucked over the coalition...they were several months too late for that.

And even if the EA had somehow destroyed it, my guess is Delenn had the statecraft to unite the Minbari and the League against the Shadows, with enough good feeling left over to prosecute a war against Earth afterward. To answer Uraniun's questions, I do agree that the massacre of 250,000 people would seriously jeopardize the Clark Regime. That's more people than he directly killed during his whole term, as far as we know. So he would get EVERY government, possibly including the Vorlons, murderously angry at him, and resistance would probably reach a fever pitch at home.

Clark can't survive the destruction of Babylon 5 for very long, it's just overreaching so soon after the martial law decree. Even military fence-sitters like Lochley would probably turn against him. And, of course, he would lose several thousand of his most loyal troops on the spot, as the Minbari would destroy the remaining Earth forces within seconds...and they would not take prisoners.

[Stark]

He bombed Mars, a wholly civilian target, and nobody seemed to do shit. Blowing up a base full of the evil aliens, protected by the most evil aliens of all, is hardly a stretch after that - being led by traitors is just icing on the cake.

Really, it's kind of silly he just left a huge symbol of his illegitamate government there, unmolested. He should have made a sign that said 'I am a spineless pussy and can't do shit but kill my own citizens'.

[NecronLord]

With Delenn and the others on B5, they're protected against direct warship attack by the (intermittant) public prescence of Kosh. If they were to blow up B5, and kill Kosh, the Vorlons would immediately and massively retaliate. Were Delenn and others merely on warships, it's probably only a matter of time before the Shadows' signal-intercepting roving sensor 'Eye' of doom finds them (like the Great Machine) and has them killed by shadow warships.

The only number I'm aware of regarding the shadow city is:

If someone pointed to an aggressor city (and for the shadows there's no distinction between civilian and military, it's all the same, the only thing that drives them on), which was unified by its desire to wreak havoc and commit massive warfare, and said, "By eliminating that city of 100,000 agressors you will save the lives of 8 billion innocent bystanders," I'd push that button in a hot second, and never regret it.

That's very vague, but that's the only thing I know of as a number for it.

[Anguirus]

He bombed Mars, a wholly civilian target, and nobody seemed to do shit.

The propaganda war against the "Mars terrorists" had been going on a lot longer. Bombing Mars was not unprecedented AFAIK, and the actual number of deaths was almost certainly lower than 250,000.

And on the topic of "nobody seemed to do shit," several colonies seceded in direct response. Only Clark's control of the military prevented a break-up of the EA on the spot.

Blowing up a base full of the evil aliens, protected by the most evil aliens of all, is hardly a stretch after that - being led by traitors is just icing on the cake.

I think you overestimate the support Clark had. He had fanatical ex-Homeguard freaks and the Psi Corps as his core of supporters. He was still trying to convince everything else.

(This is Season 4 info below)

He launches a propaganda war against B5 with the aim of getting his populace to support a capture (not a destruction) of the station (how he intended to beat the Minbari is anyone's guess). He then orders the deaths of 10,000 refugees fleeing Proxima as an example, which causes Sheridan to go apeshit and go after him in force, and large swathes of EarthForce to switch sides. He sends a couple destroyers after B5: they defect as soon as they jump in.

This tells me that Clark had nothing resembling the popular support to summarily destroy B5. Which isn't to say he didn't try his best to "molest" them when he could. He became "obsessed" with B5 as the only site of resistance outside his control.

Of course, he WAS a spineless pussy good for nothing but killing his citizens, so his efforts to appear otherwise were largely unsuccessful.

[Ted C]

In the episode Severed Dreams, Babylon 5 breaks away from Earth. Earthforce attempts to retake Babylon 5; their first wave is successfully fought off, while their second wave is deterred into withdrawal by the arrival of Minbari reinforcements.

What if: instead of meekly turning and running, the second wave of Earth cruisers decides to ensure that Babylon 5 could not threaten President Clark. They strike Babylon 5, and before the Minbari can stop them, B5 is destroyed.

Would the other governments attack Earth in retaliation for the murder of thousands of their citizens? Would they file paper protests? Would Clark lose too much support to remain in power? Would the Shadows be assured of victory in the aftermath?

The failure of Delenn to save B5 could go either way. The Warrior Caste might be able to get enough support to "finish the War the way we should have the first time" by laying waste to Earth. On the other hand, they might have been able to just say "there is no longer any reason to fight, we told you this wasn't our problem".

The Narns were already defeated, so they couldn't declare war on Earth.

The Centauri were Shadow pawns, and Clark was another Shadow puppet. The Centauri might, therefore, go either way, depending on whether the Shadows were ready to let Earth and the Centauri go at each other to see which was strongest.

The League might have gotten behind Sheridan, but there was too much dissension in their ranks for them to unite against Clark on their own, I think.

So, there would probably be protests, but I actually doubt that a war would start right then. Loss of B5 in that battle, though, would probably have been a strategic victory for the Shadows, since there would be no one left to forge an alliance against them.

[Batman]

He launches a propaganda war against B5 with the aim of getting his populace to support a capture (not a destruction) of the station (how he intended to beat the Minbari is anyone's guess). He then orders the deaths of 10,000 refugees fleeing Proxima as an example, which causes Sheridan to go apeshit and go after him in force, and large swathes of EarthForce to switch sides. He sends a couple destroyers after B5: they defect as soon as they jump in.

*wrt the bolded*
Which episode was that in? I don't remember that.
On an almost completely unrelated note, when the EA force jumps in to take over B5 in 'Severed Dreams', the two Omegas are accompanied by a not inconsiderable number of Hyperions-which are never seen again after the jump-in sequence. Do we ever find out what happened to them?

[Netko]

The one where Sheridan gets captured IIRC. We never see it, Ivanova mentions it during when briefing Sheridan on the situation on the station.

Again IIRC (been a while), they are presumed killed by Starfuries and station defenses - or something to that effect. Totally off-screen, from a JMS newsgroup post.

[Anguirus]

Netko's right. And re: "Severed Dreams," there were definitely only two Hyperions in the first wave, and one in the second.

Starfuries killing them doesn't seem unreasonable, considering that Sinclair seemed to think Alpha Squadron could take out EAS Hyperion in "A Voice in the Wilderness." Plus, a mere six Starfuries from the same squadron destroyed a Centauri warship towards the end of Season 5.

[Darth Wong]

B5 would have made a lot more sense if the design was more durable. They established very early in the series run that B5 is about as robust as a hydrogen-filled Hindenburg, and that revelation severely harms credibility later on. Frankly, the way B5 is shown early in the series, it's a wonder the place isn't destroyed by some kind of random meteor impact sooner or later.

If B5 was built in a more compartmentalized fashion, as opposed to being depicted like a thin wall of living quarters around a giant empty gas-balloon interior, and if the entire station rotated instead of this bizarre design where it rotates inside some sort of static "holder" structure, one could have made the argument that a few shots from EA ships would not actually destroy the station; they would only be able to cause localized damage.

Also, given B5's established fragility, you have to wonder why B5's defenses were all built into the station itself, rather than being designed as a network of defense satellites. What's the point of having defenses which cannot engage the enemy until he is already in direct shooting range of your fragile station?