Imperials as Nazis and specists brain bugs

[Battlehymn Republic]

Unlike the misogyny and specism brain bugs, the depiction of the Galactic Empire as something quite similar to Nazi Germany is something quite obvious in the OT. The Nazis are oppressive, militaristic, hateful and- oh come on their elite soldiers are called stormtroopers for cryin' out loud. Their uniforms also look vaguely similar to those worn by Germans in World War II. And if you move into more theoretical terms, the GE was a one man show, a personality cult at the top, much like the Hitlercentric Germany. In theory, had Hitler died, there would have been a fierce succession crisis. The Empire, like Germany, Imperialized/nationalized some corporations (mostly the ones who had been controlled by Separatists), and actually cooperated with the rest. Though they were subservient to the state, they still profited greatly, producing the means necessary for war.

So it's by no far a stretch to take from the OT that the Imperials were essentially space-Nazis, or rather space-fascists. Of course, the Galaxy being a big place, we see from the EU that there's a lot of room to see the Imperials being relatively benevolent authoritarian paternalists, or letting the ancien régime of old families and megacorporations hold on to their same way of life, or just allowing all kinds of fringe areas (from lawless frontier worlds to the Hapan Consortium) live and let live with minimal interference.

But the EU also emphasized the Nazi aspect greatly. And thus the misogynist/specist Human High Culture was invented, and many fans are mad, because that's just lazy. Though if Publius's "Peculiar Institutions" article is accurate, holistically the EU's depiction of discrimination and slavery in the Empire is less like Nazi German, South Africa under apartheid, or even the U.S. pre-1960s, but more like the Soviet Union or the PRC. Essentially you have the big ethnic majority (humans/Russians/Han), and they get first dibs. However, the government does make a show of being good to all citizens (Human High Culture and COMPNOR notwithstanding), and policy varies from place to place. The Barabels incident with the Empire declaring a formerly primitive planet as populated by sentients deserving the rights as an Imperial citizen and pulling off the Planetary Safari company that was hunting them is particularly telling. And the xenophobia is overall pragmatic rather than ideological- the hysteria against "the other" unites the majority under the Empire, and allows the state an excuse to practice revenge acts like enslaving the Wookiees for their support for the Jedi, or for exploiting primitive worlds and races (who are often alien). As Publius notes, the Imperials have no qualms about enslaving humans, or even using non-aliens to enslave them. Overall, I think that fans are painting with broad strokes that the EU paints the Empire as Nazi bigots, when it's just some works in the EU that do so. They're more like commie opportunists.

So I'm wondering what people think about the conception of the Imperials as Nazis. Is it a brain bug that's gone out of control? And how could/should it have be treated in the EU. Personally, I think the EU could have deemphasized Human High Culture as something that defined Imperial policy. It could have simply be another aspect of one of the bad things that existed in the Empire, but not necessarily something that applied to the Empire as a whole. Anyways, you don't necessarily need the state to trumpet that aliens are bad, when the Republican Senate was filled with filthy xenos anyways. The CIS, as the films showed us, was dominated by companies apparently controlled by aliens. So there could have been a lot of anti-alien sentiment from the Clone Wars.

And there are other things from history that can be adapted to reflect the varying grotesqueries of human nature. Depicting the Emperor's Dark Jedi (not just his Emperor's Hands and Royal Guardsmen) as fanatics who would give everything in service of their Emperor, rather like the Imperial Japanese soldiers? Instead of misogyny, how about elite all-female units and fighting cadres, maybe an Imperial version of the Night Witches? HoloFOX News, anyone?

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

I have a 7 AM shift, it's 11 PM here, so I really do not have the time to treat this one as thoroughly as it deserves, but I will start with this;
the historical and external pressures on the Empire are so unlike those on the Third Reich that no sane man or competent politician would react to them in the same way, and the end results should be very much more different than they are from the usual depiction.

For my money, the Imperial Sourcebook is the primary culprit. Read it and you can virtually hear the author thinking, what do I use as a historical model for this?

Which is wrong to begin with, of course. We are talking about a civil war within a galactic hegemon. There is no historical parallel for a state with no 'outside'- although there have been states that thought there wasn't. None of that comes remotely close to mirroring the internal and external conditions that turned Nazi Germany into what it was.

Thinking about it, how I wish that the Clone Wars had been something much more like the Year of the Four Emperors- 69 AD, when after Nero's death his generals and great men fought out the succession. I don't know Chinese history in any but the broadest and least detailed form, so I can't spot a good parallel there- but the disintegration from internal causes, and reintegration, of a hegemonic power is probably best studied there. Or India, actually, India might be a good one to look at too.

The clone war that we actually got was very different again, and that again should have different consequences, in the physical events and in the zeitgeist.
The best parallel I can think of for how the Empire should have been depicted, if there has to be one and only one, is Napoleonic France. I can pretty much see Barras or Carnot as Tarkin; Bail Organa as Cadoudal; but who would be Napoleon's fellow consuls? Who's Fouche, Isard? So does that make Darth Vader our Davout- stand in? If so, my affection for him has just gone up. Thrawn would be Suchet.
Further questions- who's Villeneuve? Does Palpatine cheat at sabacc? De Stael? And is there a Brigadier Gerard somewhere in the wings?

It's late. Merry Yule, Odin's ravens watch over you, and goodnight.

[Junghalli]

Well, in the movies they did seem to have a definite Nazi-ish feel. I don't think it was an accident that their soldiers were called Stormtroopers.

[Havok]

I think it is a brain bug.

Personally, I don't like equating them with any Earth military or government, but if I had to I would compare the Empire and Imperials with a distorted version of how Imperial Brittan would be in space.
I mean if you are going to make this argument based on similarities, then you should perhaps start with the fact that they all have British accents, not German ones. They have the best, most advanced, most powerful fleet, which Germany never had, but England usually did.
They call it "The Empire".
There are Knights running around in it.
There is also no party that you must be a part of, like in the Reich. The only loyalty you must have is to the the Emperor, which is again, more like swearing your allegiance to a King. You can basically do whatever you want as long as it doesn't interfere with the Imperial Machine, and when the Emperor says jump, you say how high. Other than that you are basically free to go about your business.

The Empire also didn't just go around exterminating a race because they were blaming all the problems they have on that one race. Which is what made Nazi Germany evil. If they hadn't done that, they would have just been another power hungry conquering nation. No, the Empire just subjugates all races but their own and either makes them Imperials or uses them for the Imperial machine. Much more akin to England at it's height of power, or even Rome, than the Reich.

Yes, they have a cult of personality around Palpatine, but like England, there is a clear successor to the throne. A royal "bloodline" if you will. The Reich didn't have that, or, I believe, even the machination for it to occur without massive civil bloodshed.

I mean yeah they have grey uniforms, but so what? If they had been khaki would they have automatically been Americans then? The color scheme seems to come from the industrial aspect of the Empire and its dominance through machines and technology more than "Oooo we are trying to look evil". Stormtroopers? We have those too, we just call them Marines.

You can make arguments like this and say The Empire represents X earth empire/reich/dynasty/superpower all day, but none of theme are going to ever fit perfectly, which is why, like I first said, I don't try to equate them to any Earth so and so.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The big reason for the atrociousness of the Imperial regime is that its a pan-galactic entity; the complete destruction of Alderaan was a domestic policy. Its like dropping a tac-nuke on an nice quarter of Chicago because you found out its biggest civic leader was funneling cash to anti-government insurgents in the West.

[paladin]

Yes, they have a cult of personality around Palpatine, but like England, there is a clear successor to the throne. A royal "bloodline" if you will. The Reich didn't have that, or, I believe, even the machination for it to occur without massive civil bloodshed.

What was the line was succession? In the EU, the Empire pretty much fell apart after Vader introduced Palpy to shift diving.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Dark Empire Sourcebook explicitly states that there was no constitutional mechanism to transfer the Imperial Throne to another natural person in the event that Palpatine of Naboo died. In many ways, the Empire was one of those authoritarian states sustained by a single autocratic stateman. In many ways the balance of power amongst the galactic regions and within the ruling classes was always metastable, and without Palpatine to put a state of conflict on indefinite hold, strife reasserted itself. Many polities, classes, regions, and important individuals did not trust the idea of an empire, but they trusted Palpatine. Without Palpatine, the unresolved issues of the last civil war and the new conflicts constructed by the byzantine political structure of the Empire had to come to a head.

And it is not inherently expected that an emperor be elected; there was never a formal law of succession regarding the imperial dignity in the Roman state (based on the fact it was formally just an extraordinary collection of powers under a republican constitution). Nor in the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, where the emperor was elected by nobles then crowned by the Pope. Very influential families could control the succession but it was never formalized. Both reigning Bonapartist Emperors of the French were created by plebiscite. Succession law in Tsarist Russia was notoriously violated on a regular basis.

[Havok]

Well, theoretically, it would have been Vader, and then his apprentice and so on. Remember, Palpatine says "Once more the SITH will rule the galaxy.", not "Now I will rule the galaxy forever!", implying that Sith after him would carry on what he started.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Well, theoretically, it would have been Vader, and then his apprentice and so on. Remember, Palpatine says "Once more the SITH will rule the galaxy.", not "Now I will rule the galaxy forever!", implying that Sith after him would carry on what he started.

Vader was not formally or informally the second man in the Imperial State, even if he was in the Order of the Sith Lords. Moreover, Palpatine's commentary in ROTS is before Palpatine achieved a practical method of immortality. Moreover, your argument is not valid. Simply because he says "the Sith" does not mean he intends to die if he can help it; regardless of his immortality, the Sith do rule the galaxy as he is Sith Master of the Order of the Sith Lords. His actual statement is not exclusive enough to disprove the latter claim. Moreover, as said, even if that is what he said then, nothing prevents him from changing his mind.

[Havok]

Well, theoretically, it would have been Vader, and then his apprentice and so on. Remember, Palpatine says "Once more the SITH will rule the galaxy.", not "Now I will rule the galaxy forever!", implying that Sith after him would carry on what he started.

Vader was not formally or informally the second man in the Imperial State, even if he was in the Order of the Sith Lords. Moreover, Palpatine's commentary in ROTS is before Palpatine achieved a practical method of immortality. Moreover, your argument is not valid. Simply because he says "the Sith" does not mean he intends to die if he can help it; regardless of his immortality, the Sith do rule the galaxy as he is Sith Master of the Order of the Sith Lords. His actual statement is not exclusive enough to disprove the latter claim. Moreover, as said, even if that is what he said then, nothing prevents him from changing his mind.

I agree completely. However Palpatine also knows that the power of immortality is no guarantee of living forever. Plaugeius supposedly had discovered the secret but Palpatine killed him. He certainly had to have learned that no plan was fool proof as well. He coveted Luke as a new apprentice in DE even though he had ample clones to carry on his life with. He still maintained the Sith Order. Why? I mean, I understand the need for a henchman, but why carry on with teaching an apprentice all of your secrets if you weren't planning for the possibility that someday you might not be around to carry on the Order.

As for Vader's Imperial ascension should Palpatine pass, the Empire was only 25 years old when Palpatine died the 1st time. If everything had gone according to plan, I'm sure by the time that his "natural" death came to pass, the mechanism would have been put into place for Emperor Vader to be feasible.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I agree completely. However Palpatine also knows that the power of immortality is no guarantee of living forever. Plaugeius supposedly had discovered the secret but Palpatine killed him. He certainly had to have learned that no plan was fool proof as well. He coveted Luke as a new apprentice in DE even though he had ample clones to carry on his life with. He still maintained the Sith Order. Why? I mean, I understand the need for a henchman, but why carry on with teaching an apprentice all of your secrets if you weren't planning for the possibility that someday you might not be around to carry on the Order.

Except he never did teach any of his apprentices all his secrets. I agree that on the off-chance his endless contingencies did not pay off, the best post-mortem preference he probably would have would be to be succeeded by his apprentice. However, he certainly did not seriously plan on such a contingency. The descendants of Skywalker were to serve as the nobility to his supreme autocrat under a more matured Empire. Practically though, he partially assimilates all of his underlings, and presumably a powerful Sith Apprentice - however independent they may be compared to other minions - increases his power by extension. To say nothing of the fact he considered the Skywalker bloodline to be a superior host for his essence than his own clones.

As for Vader's Imperial ascension should Palpatine pass, the Empire was only 25 years old when Palpatine died the 1st time. If everything had gone according to plan, I'm sure by the time that his "natural" death came to pass, the mechanism would have been put into place for Emperor Vader to be feasible.

Why would he ever assemble a formal method of succession? That just encourages the next in line to kill him, nevermind "worse case" scenarios of his immortality contigencies all failing. Leaving that path open makes it more likely just by existing. The Dark Empire Sourcebook explicitly states that Palpatine intentionally made it impossible to come up with an indisputed successor, and Vader's personal chances were not good considering that Sidious plotted to have his own son kill him and then replace him as Sith Apprentice to him as Sith Master.

[Havok]

I agree completely. However Palpatine also knows that the power of immortality is no guarantee of living forever. Plaugeius supposedly had discovered the secret but Palpatine killed him. He certainly had to have learned that no plan was fool proof as well. He coveted Luke as a new apprentice in DE even though he had ample clones to carry on his life with. He still maintained the Sith Order. Why? I mean, I understand the need for a henchman, but why carry on with teaching an apprentice all of your secrets if you weren't planning for the possibility that someday you might not be around to carry on the Order.

Except he never did teach any of his apprentices all his secrets. I agree that on the off-chance his endless contingencies did not pay off, the best post-mortem preference he probably would have would be to be succeeded by his apprentice. However, he certainly did not seriously plan on such a contingency. The descendants of Skywalker were to serve as the nobility to his supreme autocrat under a more matured Empire. Practically though, he partially assimilates all of his underlings, and presumably a powerful Sith Apprentice - however independent they may be compared to other minions - increases his power by extension. To say nothing of the fact he considered the Skywalker bloodline to be a superior host for his essence than his own clones.

I see your point here.

As for Vader's Imperial ascension should Palpatine pass, the Empire was only 25 years old when Palpatine died the 1st time. If everything had gone according to plan, I'm sure by the time that his "natural" death came to pass, the mechanism would have been put into place for Emperor Vader to be feasible.

Why would he ever assemble a formal method of succession? That just encourages the next in line to kill him, nevermind "worse case" scenarios of his immortality contigencies all failing. Leaving that path open makes it more likely just by existing. The Dark Empire Sourcebook explicitly states that Palpatine intentionally made it impossible to come up with an indisputed successor, and Vader's personal chances were not good considering that Sidious plotted to have his own son kill him and then replace him as Sith Apprentice to him as Sith Master.

You mean encourage him more than just being a Sith apprentice in the Order of Two, where the apprentice is practically TASKED with eventually killing and succeeding his master? As for having no current process for succession, like you said, there isn't anything keeping him from changing his mind.

[Illuminatus Primus]

You mean encourage him more than just being a Sith apprentice in the Order of Two, where the apprentice is practically TASKED with eventually killing and succeeding his master? As for having no current process for succession, like you said, there isn't anything keeping him from changing his mind.

One, a tradition does not imply inevitability. From Sidious' history of apprentices one can see that he is very self-conscious about his dispatching of Plagueis and keeps his apprentices limited and very subordinate in their relationship, and periodically replaces them. Combined with the fact we know he planned on living forever, it seems unlikely he expected to fulfill the tradition with his own apprentices. Namely, once the master-apprentice relationship begins to approach a partnership, he kills off his apprentice and replaces him (e.g., Vader and Luke). Obviously prior to Sidious, the Sith Master had to resign himself to eventually being succeeded by his apprentice, but you're attributing that to ideology and not merely to the fact it was the best alternative available. Discovering immortality would greatly alter your outlook and goals, would it not? Sidious has basically replaced the true "master-apprentice" relationship in the Sith Order with a "master-most senior and distinctly capable lackey" relationship. Certainly Sidious' Sith Apprentices are the most "partner-like" subordinates that the Galactic Emperor cultivates, with a uniquely quasi-peer relationship. But even Lord Vader was completely dominated by Palpatine's will in a way which does not seem so different from the minor dark side adepts and his Hands. Even in ROTS his emotional state in large part swings rapidly based on praise and acclaim from his Sith Master, even while he conspires to kill him.

Second, you are the one who is positing that he actually was changing his mind, not merely that he could. Theoretically, he could change his mind on anything to anything, so that is not a very salient point. You have no evidence. I can easily point to his comments in ROTS and then his documented opinions and goals later on and demonstrate that he did change his mind.

[Havok]

You mean encourage him more than just being a Sith apprentice in the Order of Two, where the apprentice is practically TASKED with eventually killing and succeeding his master? As for having no current process for succession, like you said, there isn't anything keeping him from changing his mind.

One, a tradition does not imply inevitability. From Sidious' history of apprentices one can see that he is very self-conscious about his dispatching of Plagueis and keeps his apprentices limited and very subordinate in their relationship, and periodically replaces them. Combined with the fact we know he planned on living forever, it seems unlikely he expected to fulfill the tradition with his own apprentices. Namely, once the master-apprentice relationship begins to approach a partnership, he kills off his apprentice and replaces him (e.g., Vader and Luke).

I don't think his change in apprentices had anything to do with how much they had learned or if they had achieved a certain level equal to his, in fact he only "traded up" to get more powerful apprentices that he even admitted, could EXCEED him.

Maul was killed by a Padawan.
Dooku was a stop gap, with a replacement already decided on, and a useful political tool, but was never intended as a suitable replacement for Maul. He was killed by the Chosen One, Palpatine's "goal" apprentice, who arguably had the most potential of any Jedi or Sith Ever...
UNTIL Luke came along and proved to have even more potential, or at least the same with out the mental blocks.

There is no point to this sequence of events other than to find the best possible option to carry on the Sith tradition. If it was just about having a personal henchman, he could have easily have found one that posed no threat to him as Luke or Vader did. In fact he already had all of these in his inquisitors and his many Hands.

Hell, if knew he would live forever, why even bother converting Anakin? Why not just keep Dooku? Why even replace Maul. (Yes, I know Anakin was essential to helping to extinguish the Jedi.)

No, this says to me that his live forever option was tenuous at best, and he was prepping a new Sith Lord that would eventually rule the galaxy in his place.

Second, you are the one who is positing that he actually was changing his mind, not merely that he could. Theoretically, he could change his mind on anything to anything, so that is not a very salient point. You have no evidence. I can easily point to his comments in ROTS and then his documented opinions and goals later on and demonstrate that he did change his mind.

Conceded.

[Havok]

Ha. Guess you weren't done with that post yet.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I don't think his change in apprentices had anything to do with how much they had learned or if they had achieved a certain level equal to his, in fact he only "traded up" to get more powerful apprentices that he even admitted, could EXCEED him.

Dark Empire and the Dark Empire Sourcebook state explicitly he intended to hopefully live forever. There is no contradiction; once he had developed practical immortality and Lord Vader was maimed and failed to live up to his potential, he could safely assure himself that he actually was the end-result of the Sith Order, a quasi-immortal Sith ubermensch. Even if ideology set a definite path, is it so hard to believe that opportunity and ego got the better of him?

There is no point to this sequence of events other than to find the best possible option to carry on the Sith tradition. If it was just about having a personal henchman, he could have easily have found one that posed no threat to him as Luke or Vader did. In fact he already had all of these in his inquisitors and his many Hands.

Except we know he assimilates his underlings into himself. Even if the Sith Apprentices are afforded a unique level of independence and autonomy, they appear to be just as partially submerged into the will of the Galactic Emperor as his other minions. In other words, Palpatine's apprentices make him more powerful himself. If he can drain the essence of masses of common beings to increase his own, what does submerging a demigod Force adept like Anakin or Luke Skywalker into his will do for him? Certainly this relationship increases Palpatine's power.

Certainly the relationship between the Sith Apprentice and Palpatine is much closer to a mutual sharing of power and will to the totally one-sided domination of minor dark side adepts and especially common beings, but that does not mean that Palpatine gains nothing. Consider that this is probably not atypical for the Sith Order. We know that Jedi can combine their abilities and will in battle melds, and together can be greater than the sum of their parts. Certainly in the Sith's case its probably a more unequal and dominating relationship, and eventually an apprentice can surpass the master in the relationship and supplant him. Palpatine has idealized himself as the ultimate arbiter of good and evil. He aims to assimilate everything into himself. He is no longer concerned with death and succession. Therefore, he likely simply modified the relationship to keep the apprentice indefinitely subordinate. And plans to eliminate them when a better fresh candidate materializes, or when if the apprentice becomes a dangerous challenge to the permanently unequal relationship. Remember he wanted Skywalker's descendents to serve as the eternal nobility of his matured Empire beneath him. They must serve a role in his eventual apotheosis that he cannot achieve alone and for which other minions cannot be substituted. This is aside from the fact that he wanted a Skywalker (most notably Anakin Solo) as a host for his essence eventually, considering his clones a stopgap. The best solution seems that Sithian apotheosis in some way requires the Chosen One or one of his heirs as the Sith Master, or if another (Palpatine) requires the Chosen One or his heirs as an essential ingredient to his apotheosis.

Hell, if knew he would live forever, why even bother converting Anakin? Why not just keep Dooku? Why even replace Maul. (Yes, I know Anakin was essential to helping to extinguish the Jedi.)

Uh, he could not live forever yet when he coverted Anakin. He obviously was operating under the presumption he would have to die a natural death and be succeeded by his Sith Apprentice.

No, this says to me that his live forever option was tenuous at best, and he was prepping a new Sith Lord that would eventually rule the galaxy in his place.

Your say-so is not canonical evidence. Dark Empire and the Dark Empire Sourcebook are.

[Mange]

Well, it's interesting that George Lucas referred to the Imperials as "Nazis" in the TESB DVD commentary...

[Battlehymn Republic]

Side question: if we had gone by the films' depiction of the Imperial military alone, could we make the assumption that the Stormtroopers were in fact the standard Imp front line infantry soldiers? Since they're pretty much everywhere doing everything from Death Star guard duty to patrolling Mos Eisley.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Side question: if we had gone by the films' depiction of the Imperial military alone, could we make the assumption that the Stormtroopers were in fact the standard Imp front line infantry soldiers? Since they're pretty much everywhere doing everything from Death Star guard duty to patrolling Mos Eisley.

Exactly. Front-line infantry are NOT found guarding strategic weapons platforms or aboard starships. However, a type of marine forces would be precisely appropriate.

[Battlehymn Republic]

Okay, function-wise, I can see it. Still, in the films it makes it seem that Stormies basically get all the dirty work of the military, hardly the honored elite corps. But then again, the work they do are pretty vital in the films, even the bit on Tatooine; they are trying to find some important renegade droids at the behest of Lord Vader himself.

Perhaps then the impression that Stormtroopers are somehow the drudges of the Empire are the result of their a) ubiquity and b) apparent incompetence in the films. However, both observations are quite subjective to say the least.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Okay, function-wise, I can see it. Still, in the films it makes it seem that Stormies basically get all the dirty work of the military, hardly the honored elite corps. But then again, the work they do are pretty vital in the films, even the bit on Tatooine; they are trying to find some important renegade droids at the behest of Lord Vader himself.

Hang out with a pair of Green Berets in SO school, or Ranger recruits in Ranger school. Tell me they don't do dirty work. Just because its not out of Tom Clancy doesn't mean it is not important.

The WAY they are deployed is much more important: the Stormtroopers in all the films but ROTJ are MARDET (Marine Detachments) off of common starships for dirt-side missions (Tattooine, ANH) or they are intense amphibious assaults against hardened targets (Hoth, TESB).

Perhaps then the impression that Stormtroopers are somehow the drudges of the Empire are the result of their a) ubiquity and b) apparent incompetence in the films. However, both observations are quite subjective to say the least.

Right. We really don't see many situations where you'd expect to see the Imperial Army. I like the idea of the Stormtroopers being somewhat special, personally.

[Ford Prefect]

Right. We really don't see many situations where you'd expect to see the Imperial Army. I like the idea of the Stormtroopers being somewhat special, personally.

If only other people agreed. The Imperial Army is extremely rare in the EU; I remember a unit of them appearing in a series of Boba Fett comics. And that's it. Pity.

[seeker001]

it's interesting that George Lucas referred to the Imperials as "Nazis"

I would compare the Empire and Imperials with a distorted version of how Imperial Brittan would be in space.

It's pretty simple where these analogies are subconciously, but validly and truthfully, going:

Except for Germany's insane genocide campaign, England is to the world for all its existence, what Nazi Germany was to Europe throughout WW2.