Guns of Star Wars capital ships

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Post by Darth Ruinus »

DrMckay wrote:The rails look like they only move the piece laterally-to another gunport open to space down the line- brilliant structural design, that!

okay, nice justification for the function of a "flak gun," just piss poor idea, design, and implementation on the part of the moviemakers.
I think the idea is good (how else do you stop fighters or missiles with all that pesky ECM?) but yeah, the gun ports are way too small.

The design, is alright, like you said, it should have been some turret, instead of a fixed "cannon"
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Post by Darth Ruinus »

DrMckay wrote:Oh, and according to Wookiepedia, the source you used,

"In addition to a standard ventral hangar bay, the bow of a Venator could open up to reveal a half kilometer long dorsal flight deck. This flight deck enabled the Venator-class to rapidly launch hundreds of fighters. However, the slow opening and closing of the armored bow doors could leave the ship extremely vulnerable."

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Venator- ... _Destroyer

directly quoted from the "Complement" section.

Really brilliant Idea for a combat ship, that. Personally, I'd rather have a ship that can will still be around to recover the fighters after the battle is over, and launches the fighters a bit more slowly instead of getting waxed as it opens up a goodly portion of its length (and is structurally weaker, to boot)

you are right in that the "Design Flaw Launching Bay" was only a dorsal characteristic, but that doesn;t make it any less of a completely stupid design flaw.
Shit that is really stupid, but, it would only be up the the idiot captain that orders that to actually be done. Otherwise, you could never use it, and eliminate that design flaw all together. (Well, not really, but minimilise it.)
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

I can't believe I came up with a ridiculous rationalization that overwrought.
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Post by DrMckay »

Whereas the guiding aesthetic for the original movies (which I loved,) was: "make it look like someone actually used it," adn giving us the Corrillean Corvette (reportedly an original design for the falcon) the Millennium Falcon herself, the Mos Eisley Cantina, Hell, even the Imperial stuff looked like someone actually used it.

That aspect really pulled me into the 'verse


On the other hand, it seems to me that the guiding idea for the prequels was: "make it look cool, It doesn't matter how it looks" and you get silvery naboo ships, horribly impractical and ill-designed fighters, capships and whacky six-legged walkers, all trying for a sort of "retro cool without looking more advanced than the older movies" look. That failed miserably.

The prequel-verse looked too big and new- and feels fake. Even the seedy areas of Coruscant like Dex's diner looked completely artificial, and the giant industrial areas of Coruscant felt artificial as well.

For some reason, I felt more comfortable in the Mos Eisley cantina. Even though some of the aliens looked a tad fake, at least it felt like I could pull up a chair, sit down adn order a drink instead of falling through some CG effect.
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Post by Darth Ruinus »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I can't believe I came up with a ridiculous rationalization that overwrought.
You know, I missed that entire thing, did you edit your post?

Well, one of them at least makes some sense. The Venators or whatever-class the IH belongs to may have had some blind spots, parts where the big guns or medium guns cant reach, and those fixed cannons are there just for such an occasion?

Actually, it kinda makes sense, since the mediun and heavy guns are ridiculously powerful, besides setting the yields to low levels, the fixed cannons might be extra firepower in such a case?

I seriously dont know WHY I am defending those damn guns so much. :?
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Post by DrMckay »

Blind obedience to your Star Wars gods? Have you made offerings to the Emperor like a good Citizen?

:wink:
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Post by Darth Ruinus »

DrMckay wrote:Blind obedience to your Star Wars gods? Have you made offerings to the Emperor like a good Citizen?

:wink:
Hell, I have given everythign I own to the Empire!

Well... not give, more like taken really... but still!
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Darth Ruinus wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:I can't believe I came up with a ridiculous rationalization that overwrought.
You know, I missed that entire thing, did you edit your post?

Well, one of them at least makes some sense. The Venators or whatever-class the IH belongs to may have had some blind spots, parts where the big guns or medium guns cant reach, and those fixed cannons are there just for such an occasion?

Actually, it kinda makes sense, since the mediun and heavy guns are ridiculously powerful, besides setting the yields to low levels, the fixed cannons might be extra firepower in such a case?

I seriously dont know WHY I am defending those damn guns so much. :?
Uh, right here man:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Its swiveling capability is quite beside the point when its line-of-sight is tightly restricted by a narrow gunport. Its totally ridiculous for flak weapons; such weapons need a very broad engagement envelope and a fast response time - so they must be relatively light and easily reoriented against multiple, fast targets. They also need to have high rates of fire to increase kill probability against small and fast targets.

A better idea is they are hastily-added-on modifications in order to increase anti-surface bombardment capability with a variety of mass driver payloads. That removes the rate of fire and line-of-sight problems. Maybe the Venator's analogs are similar, who knows. Perhaps against some targets volley fire from a large battery of individually-limited-line-of-sight light guns is the best solution, compared to a smaller battery of more traversable guns or larger guns?

Perhaps the Invisible Hand's gun deck is of the type I speculated, while the handful of small crewed-guns aboard the Venator are volley batteries designed to provide covering fire in the event of other batteries failing? Perhaps they are low-watt volley batteries for use when a Venator is groundside for defense, since the primary and secondary guns would cause extreme mass-destruction events? Or how about synthesis: we know Skywalker and Kenobi have taken some personal touches in applying modifications to their armada. So perhaps there are close-in blind-spots in the Venator's CIWS defensive coverage, and they built superficial battlements in those blind-spots, mounting crewed surface guns in the battlements' gun deck and using volley fire to fill-in the gaps. When a ridiculously close trajectory takes the GRS Guarlara obscenely close to the CSS Invisible Hand these special-purpose and improvisational weapons add considerably to the available broadside fire between the two ships.
The best part is the origin for the Venator's volley battlements explains the clones! Its army artillery! I am a SW rationalization god.
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Post by Darth Ruinus »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Cut long ass quote
No, I mean the part where you tried to rationalize the guns on the IH. I didnt see that part the first time I looked at your post. Everything right after "Perhaps the Invisible Hand's gun deck is of the type I speculated" I somehow didnt see. :(
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Post by DrMckay »

you're assuming you can rationalize it...

:roll:
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

DrMckay wrote:you're assuming you can rationalize it...

:roll:
Of course it is objectively stupid. That's the biggest backflip through reason I have ever done, and the obsessive-compulsive completists on EU Lit at TFN would even have to be proud. Still, I think it is amusing, and I'm going to have to include something that ridiculous in a fanfic if I ever get around to one.
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Post by DrMckay »

what were your feelings about this?
DrMckay wrote:Whereas the guiding aesthetic for the original movies (which I loved,) was: "make it look like someone actually used it," adn giving us the Corrillean Corvette (reportedly an original design for the falcon) the Millennium Falcon herself, the Mos Eisley Cantina, Hell, even the Imperial stuff looked like someone actually used it.

That aspect really pulled me into the 'verse


On the other hand, it seems to me that the guiding idea for the prequels was: "make it look cool, It doesn't matter how it looks" and you get silvery naboo ships, horribly impractical and ill-designed fighters, capships and whacky six-legged walkers, all trying for a sort of "retro cool without looking more advanced than the older movies" look. That failed miserably.

The prequel-verse looked too big and new- and feels fake. Even the seedy areas of Coruscant like Dex's diner looked completely artificial, and the giant industrial areas of Coruscant felt artificial as well.

For some reason, I felt more comfortable in the Mos Eisley cantina. Even though some of the aliens looked a tad fake, at least it felt like I could pull up a chair, sit down adn order a drink instead of falling through some CG effect.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

DrMckay wrote:what were your feelings about this?
DrMckay wrote:Whereas the guiding aesthetic for the original movies (which I loved,) was: "make it look like someone actually used it," adn giving us the Corrillean Corvette (reportedly an original design for the falcon) the Millennium Falcon herself, the Mos Eisley Cantina, Hell, even the Imperial stuff looked like someone actually used it.

That aspect really pulled me into the 'verse


On the other hand, it seems to me that the guiding idea for the prequels was: "make it look cool, It doesn't matter how it looks" and you get silvery naboo ships, horribly impractical and ill-designed fighters, capships and whacky six-legged walkers, all trying for a sort of "retro cool without looking more advanced than the older movies" look. That failed miserably.

The prequel-verse looked too big and new- and feels fake. Even the seedy areas of Coruscant like Dex's diner looked completely artificial, and the giant industrial areas of Coruscant felt artificial as well.

For some reason, I felt more comfortable in the Mos Eisley cantina. Even though some of the aliens looked a tad fake, at least it felt like I could pull up a chair, sit down adn order a drink instead of falling through some CG effect.
I definitely agree. One of the nice constraints about real, physical models is they can't be fragile shit that falls apart on its own under its own weight. CGI has no such constraints, so you tend to get shit that looks bad because it doesn't make sense. I mean there was always loose logic even in the OT, especially walkers. But I could deal with the fact the Imperial fleet was apparently 2-3 subtypes of ISD, maybe a medium ship (ROTJ comm ship), and Executor, and just assumed there were other types but not around. Then we take this and his "fascists love ubiquity" fetish goes around and ALL the Republic has are jack-of-all-trades carrier-battleship-landing-craft. That was especially odious considering AOTC already GAVE THEM a real landing craft. Or the fact that the Seppie ships kind of looked like shit (not as bad as EU, but definitely didn't look very tough to me) and without the "they're poor and scrounge through scrap or modify civies" excuse you had for the Rebels. And they couldn't upgrade from the shitty toilet-bowl Trade Fed freighter-battleships?
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Post by DrMckay »

At least in nuBSG the Jack-of-all-trades Carrier/battleship is constructed somewhat sensibly, and is stated as being part of a "Battlestar Group" (and the SFX are still good....Damn I want a Viper.....


But I digress. It would have been cool to see a couple of Lancer or Carrack-class ships (or their predecessors)

If Lucas Has any brains, he'll ask Stackpole and Allston for, (and have Allston write) a screenplay for a Rouge/Wraith Squadron TV series. Enough of this "Super Jedi" crap.

Another reason I liked the older movies was the addition of "everyman/working-class heroes" like Han Solo and Wedge Antilles.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

The Gary Stu fight jocks influencing major galactic war time events is preferable?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Its swiveling capability is quite beside the point when its line-of-sight is tightly restricted by a narrow gunport. Its totally ridiculous for flak weapons; such weapons need a very broad engagement envelope and a fast response time - so they must be relatively light and easily reoriented against multiple, fast targets. They also need to have high rates of fire to increase kill probability against small and fast targets.

A better idea is they are hastily-added-on modifications in order to increase anti-surface bombardment capability with a variety of mass driver payloads. That removes the rate of fire and line-of-sight problems. Maybe the Venator's analogs are similar, who knows. Perhaps against some targets volley fire from a large battery of individually-limited-line-of-sight light guns is the best solution, compared to a smaller battery of more traversable guns or larger guns?

Perhaps the Invisible Hand's gun deck is of the type I speculated, while the handful of small crewed-guns aboard the Venator are volley batteries designed to provide covering fire in the event of other batteries failing? Perhaps they are low-watt volley batteries for use when a Venator is groundside for defense, since the primary and secondary guns would cause extreme mass-destruction events? Or how about synthesis: we know Skywalker and Kenobi have taken some personal touches in applying modifications to their armada. So perhaps there are close-in blind-spots in the Venator's CIWS defensive coverage, and they built superficial battlements in those blind-spots, mounting crewed surface guns in the battlements' gun deck and using volley fire to fill-in the gaps. When a ridiculously close trajectory takes the GRS Guarlara obscenely close to the CSS Invisible Hand these special-purpose and improvisational weapons add considerably to the available broadside fire between the two ships.
Want to know what's funny about this kludgy rationalization? In Babylon 5, the almighty Minbari warships fire through "gun ports" on their hulls rather than turrets, which is exactly what you're trying to rationalize here. And legions of Babylon 5 fans never saw even the slightest problem with that, or any need to rationalize it.

There's actually plenty of other ways that one could rationalize them, other than what you've done here. For example, you cite their use at very short range; one could just as easily say they were meant for use at very long range, where you wouldn't need the gun to traverse large angles. And one might argue that the reason for their internal mounting arrangement is so that they can be easily swapped out for different kinds of guns by the maintenance crew in-flight, depending on what they plan to do today (we're talking about a Swiss Army knife ship, after all).
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Post by Stark »

The Minbari 'gun ports' apparently didn't stop their lasers tracking all over the show too: they're obviously not recessed very far. Makes you wonder exactly what they MEAN by 'gun ports'.

I can see why people had a bad reaction to that shot. It's brief and plot-useless, but it shows something so apparently bizarre that it leaves you wondering why the art directory put it there. I think Mike has a good point with 'swiss army knife' ship design: this is the warship that increases it's firepower by having an artillery piece fire out a docking bay. :)
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Post by Ghost Rider »

Hijack spilt.
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Post by Crazedwraith »

What's the source on those Seperatist cannon's being flak guns? Ruinus linked to a wiki. Hardly convincing especially since it itself states it lacks sources.

The RotS ICS just calls the mass drivers IIRC.
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Post by The Original Nex »

Crazedwraith wrote:What's the source on those Seperatist cannon's being flak guns? Ruinus linked to a wiki. Hardly convincing especially since it itself states it lacks sources.

The RotS ICS just calls the mass drivers IIRC.
The visual dictionary actually. The ICS neglected them altogether. Either way, they're firing projectiles, not massless turbolasers.
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Post by AniThyng »

I thought it was a reference to the 88mm flak-sque guns on the Death Star...
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Post by FTeik »

Couldn't they be the proton-torpedo-launchers of the IH?

According to the ROTS:ICS there are usually fuel-silos and additional reactors where the main hangar of the IH is located (the IH is a modified version of the Providence-class). Since the ship's power-production was gutted in favour of hangar-space couldn't the many torpedo-launchers - 104 IIRC - be an attempt to make up for lost firepower in form of turbolasers?
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

There's no free lunch in space combat. Reactor power unavailable for more turbolasers also cannot provide extra thrust to counteract the mass penalty from just adding some bolt-on torpedo tubes.
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Post by Vehrec »

Ideally, a Venator launches its fighters before it is within range of the enemy. As a carrier first and foremost, it is very vulnerable if it is caught launching or recovering fighters. The 'weakness' of the open flight deck is only one if it is open while the ship is under fire. Since they can lauch hundreds of fighters per minute with it open, it is probably acceptable in order to get those fighters in the air quickly to combat the Sepratist hordes boiling out of the even more massive hangers of the Lucrehulk class ships.
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Post by Coalition »

If I remember correctly, for the Venator, there is a ventral opening for the main hangar bay. During the RotS space battle, we can see a beam shoot out of the belly of one of the Venators, and hit a CIS ship.

From the RotS Incredible Cross sections book, it mentioned that the turbolaser artillery was often hooked up to the ship's power grid, and used as an additional weapon.

It also makes sense as that way you can unload the troops without needing to use the flyers.


The open hangar bay is not that big of a problem in fleet battles, based on the positioning of its guns. The guns are arranged almost in two lines from the front to rear. This provides poor coverage on the front (only two guns really have full coverage), but in broadside battles it allows all the guns to fire. If nothing has an arc to hit in the hangar, then there is no problem with opening it up to launch/recover fighters.

Of course, if the enemy is at range, and in front of you, then you don't want to open up the whole hangar. So you use the smaller hatch, and slowly launch the fighters from there. There is the chance for lucky shots, but much less of one.
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