Confederacy or Federation?

[Illuminatus Primus]

They don't have to do it quickly. They just have to bottleneck the only way in and keep the UFP out until they do reverse engineer it.

Sounds like a good fanfic though.

And I don't know if Trek phasers can track that well. I know torpedoes can't. Seeing the Scimitar slowly bank away from the Enterprise-E's torpedoes was sad.

[NecronLord]

The thing is that Confederation is limited in how it moves. The Federation has none of these limitations.

To be fair they have many... Ion storms, That omega particled sector, several nebulas. The dyson sphere, inverse gravitons...

but you're right, its not a fundamental flaw.

[Alyeska]

They don't have to do it quickly. They just have to bottleneck the only way in and keep the UFP out until they do reverse engineer it.

Sounds like a good fanfic though.

And I don't know if Trek phasers can track that well. I know torpedoes can't. Seeing the Scimitar slowly bank away from the Enterprise-E's torpedoes was sad.

Phasers can track very well and would kill any Confed fighter before they enter range.

And what is this with bottlenecking? The Federaiton uses Warp drives, not Jump Points. The Federation can completely avoid the bottlenecked points and go about blasting away the Confed forces.

[Balrog]

There are very few times when we see Feddie phasers up against fighter-type craft (I believe there was one episode of Voyager that showed that god-forsaken up against fighters, but I fear reprisals for mentioning it here ).

They do tend to miss some of the bigger targets once in awhile.

[Alyeska]

There are very few times when we see Feddie phasers up against fighter-type craft (I believe there was one episode of Voyager that showed that god-forsaken up against fighters, but I fear reprisals for mentioning it here ).

They do tend to miss some of the bigger targets once in awhile.

Actually phasers show a 99% accuracy against large targets and a still near perfect accuracy against smaller targets.

[Illuminatus Primus]

They don't have to do it quickly. They just have to bottleneck the only way in and keep the UFP out until they do reverse engineer it.

Sounds like a good fanfic though.

And I don't know if Trek phasers can track that well. I know torpedoes can't. Seeing the Scimitar slowly bank away from the Enterprise-E's torpedoes was sad.

Phasers can track very well and would kill any Confed fighter before they enter range.

And what is this with bottlenecking? The Federaiton uses Warp drives, not Jump Points. The Federation can completely avoid the bottlenecked points and go about blasting away the Confed forces.

There'd have to be a wormhole or some means to bring two said universes together, no?

[Darth Wong]

Actually phasers show a 99% accuracy against large targets and a still near perfect accuracy against smaller targets.

I would like to know where you got these figures from, considering that 130m long vessels can routinely close to within a few hundred metres while taking only glancing hits, and Peregrine fighters got within knife-fight range of Cardassian and Dominion vessels in the large fleet battles. Have you seen Wayne's movie of Star Trek weapon misses?

[Alyeska]

Actually phasers show a 99% accuracy against large targets and a still near perfect accuracy against smaller targets.

I would like to know where you got these figures from, considering that 130m long vessels can routinely close to within a few hundred metres while taking only glancing hits, and Peregrine fighters got within knife-fight range of Cardassian and Dominion vessels in the large fleet battles. Have you seen Wayne's movie of Star Trek weapon misses?

Yes, I have. The overwhelming majority of Wayne's video is that of NON-Federation ships missing targets. That is a slightly important note. Starfleet ships have a greater then 99% accuracy rating with their beam phasers.

[Darth Wong]

Yes, I have. The overwhelming majority of Wayne's video is that of NON-Federation ships missing targets. That is a slightly important note. Starfleet ships have a greater then 99% accuracy rating with their beam phasers.

And yet the Federation doesn't wipe the floor with these guys; why not?

Think about it: since they only fire when they've got a positive lock, this doesn't prove anything about their accuracy. In "Conundrum", they didn't fire until the drones were less than 200 metres of their ship. In the Battle of Chintoka, they didn't fire on the Cardassian OWP's until they were within 500 metres.

In other words, if they only fire when they can't possibly miss, then a high apparent accuracy is rather misleading because they simply don't fire when they're not sure of a hit. This is a bit like a marksman refusing to fire on any target which is either moving, shooting back, or farther away than 50 metres and then boasting about his 100% hit rate.

[Alyeska]

Yes, I have. The overwhelming majority of Wayne's video is that of NON-Federation ships missing targets. That is a slightly important note. Starfleet ships have a greater then 99% accuracy rating with their beam phasers.

And yet the Federation doesn't wipe the floor with these guys; why not?

Think about it: since they only fire when they've got a positive lock, this doesn't prove anything about their accuracy. In "Conundrum", they didn't fire until the drones were less than 200 metres of their ship. In the Battle of Chintoka, they didn't fire on the Cardassian OWP's until they were within 500 metres.

In other words, if they only fire when they can't possibly miss, then a high apparent accuracy is rather misleading because they simply don't fire when they're not sure of a hit. This is a bit like a marksman refusing to fire on any target which is either moving, shooting back, or farther away than 50 metres and then boasting about his 100% hit rate.

Actually in the Battle of Chintoka they fired several KM off. You can clearly see several D'Deridex and Galaxy ships firing their weapons and you can match the length of their ships multiple times. Infact, what they were firing at was several KM away.

Conudrum isn't exactly the best of examples considering the state of the crew.

And as to firing while with a positive lock. Starfleet ships have fired at similar ranges compared to other ships, however their accuracy is higher then any other standard group.

[Darth Wong]

[Actually in the Battle of Chintoka they fired several KM off. You can clearly see several D'Deridex and Galaxy ships firing their weapons and you can match the length of their ships multiple times. Infact, what they were firing at was several KM away.

How does this affect the point? OK, instead of 0.5 km, you say it's more like 2 km. Big deal; they still have never demonstrated the ability to effortlessly hit fighters as you say they can. The fact that they had to close to within 2 km is damning enough.

Conudrum isn't exactly the best of examples considering the state of the crew.

You found a loophole. Oooh.

[Sea Skimmer]

Yes, I have. The overwhelming majority of Wayne's video is that of NON-Federation ships missing targets. That is a slightly important note. Starfleet ships have a greater then 99% accuracy rating with their beam phasers.

And yet the Federation doesn't wipe the floor with these guys; why not?

Think about it: since they only fire when they've got a positive lock, this doesn't prove anything about their accuracy. In "Conundrum", they didn't fire until the drones were less than 200 metres of their ship. In the Battle of Chintoka, they didn't fire on the Cardassian OWP's until they were within 500 metres.

In other words, if they only fire when they can't possibly miss, then a high apparent accuracy is rather misleading because they simply don't fire when they're not sure of a hit. This is a bit like a marksman refusing to fire on any target which is either moving, shooting back, or farther away than 50 metres and then boasting about his 100% hit rate.

Actually in the Battle of Chintoka they fired several KM off. You can clearly see several D'Deridex and Galaxy ships firing their weapons and you can match the length of their ships multiple times. Infact, what they were firing at was several KM away.

Conudrum isn't exactly the best of examples considering the state of the crew.

And as to firing while with a positive lock. Starfleet ships have fired at similar ranges compared to other ships, however their accuracy is higher then any other standard group.

Wow, they can match 1970's tank gun's for accuracy! Not bad considering they've only got about 375 years for technological advancement and bigger targets... Wait, never mind.

[Alyeska]

[Actually in the Battle of Chintoka they fired several KM off. You can clearly see several D'Deridex and Galaxy ships firing their weapons and you can match the length of their ships multiple times. Infact, what they were firing at was several KM away.

How does this affect the point? OK, instead of 0.5 km, you say it's more like 2 km. Big deal; they still have never demonstrated the ability to effortlessly hit fighters as you say they can. The fact that they had to close to within 2 km is damning enough.

Actually it was closer to 10km. Using the D'Deridex at a length of 1.3km, it is aproximately 8 ship lengths away from the edge of the screen. It was side by side with a Galaxy, and both were firing at targets beyond said edge of screen. Even if it were 2km, that is shit range for WC and they can't target hardly anything at that range.

Conudrum isn't exactly the best of examples considering the state of the crew.

You found a loophole. Oooh.

We have seen greater ranges used against small craft before. As I said, the episode does not indicate very good training for the Enterprise crew at the time.

[Alyeska]

And yet the Federation doesn't wipe the floor with these guys; why not?

Think about it: since they only fire when they've got a positive lock, this doesn't prove anything about their accuracy. In "Conundrum", they didn't fire until the drones were less than 200 metres of their ship. In the Battle of Chintoka, they didn't fire on the Cardassian OWP's until they were within 500 metres.

In other words, if they only fire when they can't possibly miss, then a high apparent accuracy is rather misleading because they simply don't fire when they're not sure of a hit. This is a bit like a marksman refusing to fire on any target which is either moving, shooting back, or farther away than 50 metres and then boasting about his 100% hit rate.

Actually in the Battle of Chintoka they fired several KM off. You can clearly see several D'Deridex and Galaxy ships firing their weapons and you can match the length of their ships multiple times. Infact, what they were firing at was several KM away.

Conudrum isn't exactly the best of examples considering the state of the crew.

And as to firing while with a positive lock. Starfleet ships have fired at similar ranges compared to other ships, however their accuracy is higher then any other standard group.

Wow, they can match 1970's tank gun's for accuracy! Not bad considering they've only got about 375 years for technological advancement and bigger targets... Wait, never mind.

Your comparing space combat with tank warfare?

[Alyeska]

Funny. People claim bad accuracy on the part of the Federation. I prove that wrong, so now said accuracy is belittled with irrelevent statements such as the comment to 1970s tank accuracy.

[Darth Wong]

Actually it was closer to 10km. Using the D'Deridex at a length of 1.3km, it is aproximately 8 ship lengths away from the edge of the screen. It was side by side with a Galaxy, and both were firing at targets beyond said edge of screen.

I would have to watch that again; I recall that they were hitting them at extreme close range. I don't suppose you have any screenshots or vidcaps, do you?

Even if it were 2km, that is shit range for WC and they can't target hardly anything at that range.

They can target a 600 metre long vessel at that range.

You found a loophole. Oooh.

We have seen greater ranges used against small craft before.

When? Keep in mind that such "small" craft as a Dominion cockroaches are MUCH larger than these things were.

[Darth Wong]

Funny. People claim bad accuracy on the part of the Federation. I prove that wrong, so now said accuracy is belittled with irrelevent statements such as the comment to 1970s tank accuracy.

How have you proven it wrong? You still must explain why they don't absolutely wipe the floor with bad guys who admittedly can't hit the side of a barn.

[Alyeska]

Actually it was closer to 10km. Using the D'Deridex at a length of 1.3km, it is aproximately 8 ship lengths away from the edge of the screen. It was side by side with a Galaxy, and both were firing at targets beyond said edge of screen.

I would have to watch that again; I recall that they were hitting them at extreme close range. I don't suppose you have any screenshots or vidcaps, do you?

http://community.webshots.com/image5/7/ ... SVE_ph.jpg

You will probably have to remove the http:// from the adress to view it. Sorry for the quality, but thats the best I can do. Anyway, as you can see one ship is already firing. Throughout the scene you see the ships constantly firing, from the forward ships to the rear ships.

Even if it were 2km, that is shit range for WC and they can't target hardly anything at that range.

They can target a 600 metre long vessel at that range.

Not THAT accuratly really. They can lock on with their torpedoes, but that takes a long time and it requires flying in a straight line on the target. If they want to shoot at any porition of the capship, they have to close range much closer in order to target enemy capship systems.

You found a loophole. Oooh.

We have seen greater ranges used against small craft before.

When? Keep in mind that such "small" craft as a Dominion cockroaches are MUCH larger than these things were.

Actually it was in TNG Preemptive Strike in which Worf uses torpedoes to drive off Maquis craft. He used close range detonations to drive them off rather then destroy them, and he was able to get the torpedoes right on to the Maquis ships. The Maquis ships were flying at similar combat speeds to WC fighters.

[Alyeska]

Funny. People claim bad accuracy on the part of the Federation. I prove that wrong, so now said accuracy is belittled with irrelevent statements such as the comment to 1970s tank accuracy.

How have you proven it wrong? You still must explain why they don't absolutely wipe the floor with bad guys who admittedly can't hit the side of a barn.

Actually the Dominion, Klingon, Romulan, Cardassian, etc... accuracy is generaly bad against such targets as destroyers and other smaller ships. Against larger ships, their accuracy is identical, and the Federation has at least half of their ships at this size level. Part of the reason the Federation hasn't beat the crap out of them is because they fight wars very conservatively. As far as we can tell, the Federation fought a defensive war the ENTIRE time in the Federation/Cardassian war. Even in the Dominion war the Federation was very conservative at first. It could be explained part of the reason the Federation won in the Dominion war was because they were far more accurate even when outnumbers 2-1.

[Darth Wong]

http://community.webshots.com/image5/7/ ... SVE_ph.jpg

You will probably have to remove the http:// from the adress to view it. Sorry for the quality, but thats the best I can do. Anyway, as you can see one ship is already firing. Throughout the scene you see the ships constantly firing, from the forward ships to the rear ships.

That shot hardly shows 10km. And I would remind you that you have been bragging about their ability to hit large. immobile Cardassian OWP's at a range of a few km. You should recognize this as embarrassing.

Even if it were 2km, that is shit range for WC and they can't target hardly anything at that range.

They can target a 600 metre long vessel at that range.

Not THAT accuratly really. They can lock on with their torpedoes, but that takes a long time and it requires flying in a straight line on the target. If they want to shoot at any porition of the capship, they have to close range much closer in order to target enemy capship systems.

Who said anything about having to target individual systems on the capship, as opposed to hitting the whole capship? We're talking about vessels on which their best armour (on the Defiant) isn't strong enough to keep a dud warhead from punching through (see "Starship Down"). If they can't take down its shields, it doesn't matter where they hit it, and if they CAN take down its shields, then it still doesn't matter where they hit it.

Actually it was in TNG Preemptive Strike in which Worf uses torpedoes to drive off Maquis craft. He used close range detonations to drive them off rather then destroy them, and he was able to get the torpedoes right on to the Maquis ships. The Maquis ships were flying at similar combat speeds to WC fighters.

You can't use torps to prove phaser accuracy, Alyeska.

[Strate_Egg]

All federation ships have 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% acuracy. Please.... id like to see some hard proof that they could hit fast, agile, one man fighters regularly. This is almost as sad as Tauniverse.com people saying ISD's aint got shields.


I can understand the limitations imposed on Confed due to only having jump drives, but not in a fleet engagement.

[Alyeska]

http://community.webshots.com/image5/7/ ... SVE_ph.jpg

You will probably have to remove the http:// from the adress to view it. Sorry for the quality, but thats the best I can do. Anyway, as you can see one ship is already firing. Throughout the scene you see the ships constantly firing, from the forward ships to the rear ships.

That shot hardly shows 10km. And I would remind you that you have been bragging about their ability to hit large. immobile Cardassian OWP's at a range of a few km. You should recognize this as embarrassing.

Those OWPs weren't all that large. They are around the same size as the average WC bomber. They are also just as vulnerable as the standard WC bomber. The reason why I say this is because WC bombers must fly very straight in order to use their torpedo systems. Makes them very easy targets.

They can target a 600 metre long vessel at that range.

Not THAT accuratly really. They can lock on with their torpedoes, but that takes a long time and it requires flying in a straight line on the target. If they want to shoot at any porition of the capship, they have to close range much closer in order to target enemy capship systems.

Who said anything about having to target individual systems on the capship, as opposed to hitting the whole capship? We're talking about vessels on which their best armour (on the Defiant) isn't strong enough to keep a dud warhead from punching through (see "Starship Down"). If they can't take down its shields, it doesn't matter where they hit it, and if they CAN take down its shields, then it still doesn't matter where they hit it.

WC torpedoes have to be able to penetrate shields first. If they can't match frequencies they will merely impact the shield, the warhead will go off permaturly and the shaped charge of the torpedo becomes useless. Furthermore, as already adressed, the WC bombers have to fly in straight and level on the enemy target, makes them easy targets.

Actually it was in TNG Preemptive Strike in which Worf uses torpedoes to drive off Maquis craft. He used close range detonations to drive them off rather then destroy them, and he was able to get the torpedoes right on to the Maquis ships. The Maquis ships were flying at similar combat speeds to WC fighters.

You can't use torps to prove phaser accuracy, Alyeska.

Actually I am referring to Starfleets capability to hit targets period at this point. It shows how Starfleet ships can hit WC fighters at longer range.

[Strate_Egg]

They may use fighters, but their ships got some stomp'en power as well.

[Darth_Shinji]

I have a question about WC jump points.

A. Were are they found usaully in a solar system?

B. How are they found?

C. Do all solar systems have one? Or are we just to assume that all UFP solar systems have one?

The reason I asked it becuase are we sure the UFP could just mine lay this points? At the very least it might take a while to relise how the WC is getting around. And could the UFP find them realisticaly in systems were the WC doen't come though? My knoweledge of WC point phyics is very basic.

[Stormbringer]

I have a question about WC jump points.

A. Were are they found usaully in a solar system?

They can be anywhere in the system.

B. How are they found?

Unknown.

C. Do all solar systems have one? Or are we just to assume that all UFP solar systems have one?

It's another unknown. All the systems we've ever seen do but that doesn't mean that they all do.