Was Palpatine a great mastermind?

[Havok]

Palpy's not so much a mastermind as he is extremely charastmatic and persuasive/manipulative (he's good at getting people to do his bidding, knowingly or unknowingly) and an uncanny knack for turning any situation to his advantage to some degree. He's also quite adaptable and meticulous in what planning he does do (he appears to at least trry to cover for evey eventuality he can conceive of.)

You know, I've always thought about Palpatine being a grand politician, "able to follow the passions of the senators", but I've also always wondered how much of this charisma and persuasive ability come from his mastery of the Force rather than just only brute personality. That he has a powerful personality and likewise a keen mind, there can be no doubt, but he he can always fall back on his dark side knowledge when personality doesn't work. That he understands the political system better than most is also somewhat of a given.

With the Shroud of the Dark Side clouding Jedi vision, he can predict most of what his enemies intend to do while the other side virtually remains blind. That's not to say that he can accurately predict everything that might happen, as such power is beyond even the most powerful Jedi or Sith, but he still possesses a massive advantage over his opponents in anticipating future events. Certainly some of his conviction in taking his bolder steps must have come from such advantage.

And what of his persuasive abilities? It's no secret that Force users can read minds and sense emotion. But it's also a whole other realm of possibility in being able to meddle with them. While he can't outright mind control his opponents like puppets, he can readily influence their emotions in certain situations and even outright give them commands to do whatever he pleases (Jar Jar coming to mind in AOTC, e.g.). Anyhow that's just my take on the subject--Palpatine's an excellent strategist--but much of what he does is fixed by what his abilities in the Force tell him.

So what. They are still HIS abilities. You don't think that any other Senator wouldn't use them if they had them?

[Boeing 757]

Palpy's not so much a mastermind as he is extremely charastmatic and persuasive/manipulative (he's good at getting people to do his bidding, knowingly or unknowingly) and an uncanny knack for turning any situation to his advantage to some degree. He's also quite adaptable and meticulous in what planning he does do (he appears to at least trry to cover for evey eventuality he can conceive of.)

You know, I've always thought about Palpatine being a grand politician, "able to follow the passions of the senators", but I've also always wondered how much of this charisma and persuasive ability come from his mastery of the Force rather than just only brute personality. That he has a powerful personality and likewise a keen mind, there can be no doubt, but he he can always fall back on his dark side knowledge when personality doesn't work. That he understands the political system better than most is also somewhat of a given.

With the Shroud of the Dark Side clouding Jedi vision, he can predict most of what his enemies intend to do while the other side virtually remains blind. That's not to say that he can accurately predict everything that might happen, as such power is beyond even the most powerful Jedi or Sith, but he still possesses a massive advantage over his opponents in anticipating future events. Certainly some of his conviction in taking his bolder steps must have come from such advantage.

And what of his persuasive abilities? It's no secret that Force users can read minds and sense emotion. But it's also a whole other realm of possibility in being able to meddle with them. While he can't outright mind control his opponents like puppets, he can readily influence their emotions in certain situations and even outright give them commands to do whatever he pleases (Jar Jar coming to mind in AOTC, e.g.). Anyhow that's just my take on the subject--Palpatine's an excellent strategist--but much of what he does is fixed by what his abilities in the Force tell him.

So what. They are still HIS abilities. You don't think that any other Senator wouldn't use them if they had them?

Well that's an obvious duh. I know that they're his abilities, and just because he has them doesn't mean he's anything less than intelligent or inflexible. Infact I really think he is a genuine master schemer and down to earth genius. Fact of the matter is, he still makes his own plans by himself at the end of the day and that's what mostly matters, eh? But that doesn't mean we should ignore that it's any less cheap that he has a HUGE god damned cheat by seeing the future ahead or referring to the Force for guidance and intuition on certain matters.

So ergo let me ask you this: Do you honestly think Palpatine could have established the Empire as quickly as he did in the PT without aid from Force intuition and forsight? Or that perhaps the Dark Lord of the Sith's planning would have been as concrete and assured without the Force to guide it?

Because I really don't think his success would have been as evident and great without it. The Force gives him an uncanny "insight into the galaxy's other races" as Imperial Sourcebook states. That's a huge advantage in manuevering against alien opponents who wouldn't be thinking along Palpatine's human lines of thought. And it's blindingly obvious that his forsight is accurate most of the time (Why on earth would he use it in strategizing in ROTJ if wasn't beneficial somehow? Why would the Jedi use it as stated by Yoda in AOTC to plan/manuever important future events?).

[Illuminatus Primus]

I suspect that a lot of his pre-Clone War backstage political control as set up slowly over the course of generations by his Sith predecessors and their minions.

[Crom]

Nitpick: Where do you get this "40 years" from? From the time he declared himself Emperor to the time Luke hands Vader his ass and then Vader kills Palpatine is about 23 years.

I made some assumptions that I suppose were incorrect. I guessed that Palpatine's dominance as Chancellor to RotJ was around 30+ years and I also assumed that it was pretty much unchallenged, seeing as how Palpatine has precognitive abilities. But it looks as if I was wrong on all counts on that.

[Crom]

After the dust settled I began to doubt my position. In your opinion is Palpatine a great mastermind?

I can't believe that this question is truly being considered, but sometimes the obvious must be stated.

I'm not confident enough to debate very well. I also want to make sure that I do go all fundamentalist on someone. I guess, in the end, since I wasn't sure I was right from the beginning of the debate, and since I failed to convince my friend it made me wonder if I was wrong.

Judging from his actions in the saga, Palpatine is at the forefront in terms of popular sci-fi masterminds. He was beset by several goals: a.) destroy the Republic. b.) establish galactic conquest. c.) destroy the Jedi Order.

By objectively looking at what occured, he pretty much managed to accomplish all three. And considering the vast scope of his ambition, even if we can't award him "full accomplishment", he's a mastermind of unparalleled proportions.

On the subject of Palpatine's intellect, the RotJ novelization and the DSSB confirm that Palpatine is "a genius". And his "brilliant manipulation" and intimate knowledge of people and their weaknesses has been referenced by people including Count Dooku and even so far as Jacen Solo.

The man conquered the galaxy, destroyed a twenty-five-thousand year old government, and replaced it with the largest and most powerful military regime in history. No one in the mythos has come close to matching that.


Edit: As to his defeat in RotJ, we can credit that to numerous things. The light side of the Force was beginning to overtake the dark once more, thus dampening Palpatine's senses (confirmed when he was unable to sense Luke) and sheer overconfidence. It's a flaw, but one that does not mitigate or reduce his earlier success.

Remember folks. Palpatine's defeat isn't a question of his intellect. The Rebels fell into his trap.

I always thought that Palpatine's scale alone would make him remarkable.

[Crom]

And why should Tarkin had to evacuate? He was in the command of the most powerful space station of all time and suddenly he is informed that there is a danger and asked to evacuate. Yes, it was arrogance - or rather confidence, since the entire Rebel attack reeked of desparation.

As I understood the argument it stems from the belief that since the Empire has a tendency to punish subordinates, it would take a serious situation for a lowly officer to approach a Grand Moff and inform him that there was a threat to the space station.

So, upon receiving the information that there was a threat to the station, Tarkin should have begun evacuations. Since he did not recognize the threat he fails.

I'm not sure about this argument either, since we never see Tarkin executing any of his officers, but again, I'm not well versed in the EU.

[Faqa]

Everything above is wrong. What about Nute Gunray and Darth Maul the first time around? They royally fucked up. His minions have always been hit and miss. He's just as obsessed with totally dominating and controlling Anakin Skywalker as he later is with Luke Skywalker. The ONLY DIFFERENCE in outcome is that Luke Skywalker was a stronger and better person, and Palpatine could not read him like he did Anakin, and ultimately, screwed up with Anakin too. Even after he came back he made the same mistake again and throught he could predict Skywalker and control him and failed. The idea that PT Palpatine was different is absurd. EVERYTHING HINGED ON PROPERLY PREDICTING ANAKIN WOULD SAVE HIM FROM WINDU. Everything came down to that disarmament. He already controlled the galaxy since before The Phantom Menace, with the Clone War having expanded his war dictatorship his power was basically unlimited, and since the Clone War began he could've unleashed Order 66 and wiped out the Jedi. He risked all of that on Anakin saving him from Windu.

You assume Palpatine planned the whole Mace Windu arrest scene. Given the enormous risk, why the fuck would he? I've always found that theory to be the height of 'omg, teh omnipotent predictor' wankery. Sounds like Thrawn's style more, actually....

My take on it is that Anakin going to the council honestly caught him off guard. He panicked when the Jedi came in, tried to fight his way out and was saved by sheer luck and some fast thinking. Both of which are far more in keeping with his character than such a gamble.

His mistake was, ironically, the same one he made with Luke decades later. Anakin had a wee bit more backbone than Palpatine anticipated. Fortunately, it worked out in the end.

As for why he didn't wipe out the Jedi as soon as he had them fighting with the Clone Army? Simple. He needed that war to drag out the way it did, to make it's way to Coruscant and kidnap the Chancellor. If the Seperatists AREN'T that big a threat, then most of Palpy's appeal is gone. He painted himself as the savior of the galaxy, remember. Saviors need things to save, things that are in danger.

I do agree on your final conclusion however - OT Palpatine = PT Palaptine with more confidence.

[Alexian Cale]

My take on it is that Anakin going to the council honestly caught him off guard. He panicked when the Jedi came in, tried to fight his way out and was saved by sheer luck and some fast thinking. Both of which are far more in keeping with his character than such a gamble.

I respectfully disagree.

Remember, that Anakin told Palpatine in advance that he intended to inform the Jedi Council of the Chancellor's Sith status; it hardly came as a "surprise", and it would have given Palpatine ample time to concoct a scheme or the foundation for one to deal with the detachment of Jedi. That he seemingly telepathically communicates to Anakin as Skywalker sits alone in the Jedi Council tower would support the theory that he intended to force Anakin's hand in that engagement.

Now, I'm not arguing that Palpatine did have the whole thing planned. But it's plainly obvious that it is easily within his capabilities as a schemer; he played Skywalker and Windu like fiddles for decades. That isn't about to change.

Likewise, I'd argue that Palpatine takes many risks all the time.

[Faqa]

My take on it is that Anakin going to the council honestly caught him off guard. He panicked when the Jedi came in, tried to fight his way out and was saved by sheer luck and some fast thinking. Both of which are far more in keeping with his character than such a gamble.

I respectfully disagree.

Remember, that Anakin told Palpatine in advance that he intended to inform the Jedi Council of the Chancellor's Sith status; it hardly came as a "surprise", and it would have given Palpatine ample time to concoct a scheme or the foundation for one to deal with the detachment of Jedi. That he seemingly telepathically communicates to Anakin as Skywalker sits alone in the Jedi Council tower would support the theory that he intended to force Anakin's hand in that engagement.

Now, I'm not arguing that Palpatine did have the whole thing planned. But it's plainly obvious that it is easily within his capabilities as a schemer; he played Skywalker and Windu like fiddles for decades. That isn't about to change.

Likewise, I'd argue that Palpatine takes many risks all the time.

Unfortunately, Palpatine planning that scene in any way, shape or form is stupid in the extreme. If he planned the scene, then we are faced with two possiblities:

A - He planned to defeat the Jedi and fucked up. In which case, this is utter stupidity since it means the man based his entire master plan on being able to defeat the Order's greatest Battle Jedi and their best swordsman together. Also really out of keeping with Palpatine's MO.

B - He planned to have Windu corner him. This is even stupider, for way too many reasons that have been hashed over dozens of times before.

Neither option really yields something that makes sense. Whereas underestimating Skywalkers is right up Palpatine's alley....

[Alexian Cale]

Unfortunately, Palpatine planning that scene in any way, shape or form is stupid in the extreme.

Right.

I never argued that he did. I am simply offering that he could. While Palpatine certainly isn't even a perfect schemer, his "understanding of people's weaknesses" (as Jacen Solo would describe it circa 40 ABY) are extraordinarily refined; while Mace Windu can compete and best Darth Sidious on a physical level, there really isn't any close competition intellectually. He was an unknowing instrument for decades, as were all of the Jedi. Add to the fact that we know he was aware that Anakin was going to inform the Jedi Council, he had ample time to concoct a scheme to bring Anakin back to the Chancellor's office in time to force his hand against Windu.

It is heavily implied that Palpatine communicated with Anakin via telepathy as Anakin sat alone in the Council chambers, distraught and terrified as to his choice; given that the voice-over line by Ian McDiarmid is not a repeat of any line spoken during Anakin's confrontation with him, it is the only reasonable conclusion.

Add to the fact that the novelization confirms that Palpatine felt the Jedi's presence encroaching upon his office, we have simple facts that would have likely allowed Palpatine to manipulate such a situation. I do believe it was easily within his capabilities.

But, not knowing the intricate nature of Vaapad, perhaps he was overconfident in his own abilities and simply assumed he could dispatch the Jedi.

[Faqa]

Unfortunately, Palpatine planning that scene in any way, shape or form is stupid in the extreme.

Right.

I never argued that he did. I am simply offering that he could. While Palpatine certainly isn't even a perfect schemer, his "understanding of people's weaknesses" (as Jacen Solo would describe it circa 40 ABY) are extraordinarily refined; while Mace Windu can compete and best Darth Sidious on a physical level, there really isn't any close competition intellectually. He was an unknowing instrument for decades, as were all of the Jedi. Add to the fact that we know he was aware that Anakin was going to inform the Jedi Council, he had ample time to concoct a scheme to bring Anakin back to the Chancellor's office in time to force his hand against Windu.

It is heavily implied that Palpatine communicated with Anakin via telepathy as Anakin sat alone in the Council chambers, distraught and terrified as to his choice; given that the voice-over line by Ian McDiarmid is not a repeat of any line spoken during Anakin's confrontation with him, it is the only reasonable conclusion.

Add to the fact that the novelization confirms that Palpatine felt the Jedi's presence encroaching upon his office, we have simple facts that would have likely allowed Palpatine to manipulate such a situation. I do believe it was easily within his capabilities.

But, not knowing the intricate nature of Vaapad, perhaps he was overconfident in his own abilities and simply assumed he could dispatch the Jedi.

Of course he COULD. Of course he COULD plan to piss off the Jedi enough that they'd send four Masters to come and arrest him. That doesn't mean it makes any sense for him to do so, nor does it fit his MO.

And, frankly, I think Anakin brooding in the chambers could just as easily be an inner monologue of his.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The thing is that people often complain about how well his risky plans work out; at least part of it is people falling for the same shit more than once. One realizes of course that his gambit to retake the galaxy in 9 ABY relied on the same slieght of hand by which he allowed the CIS to successfully assault Coruscant at the end of the Clone War, just he allowed a leak to ensure that Anakin and Obi-Wan returned with relief forces ahead of time. In 9 ABY he has the New Republic sink all their fleet resources in a campaign to drive the Empire out to the fringe, and attacks the rear via the Deep Core to catch them off-guard and radically shift the balance of power - similar to how the Republic was pinned down in the Outer Rim sieges when Grevious routed his assault to the rear via the Deep Core.

[Kuja]

And why should Tarkin had to evacuate? He was in the command of the most powerful space station of all time and suddenly he is informed that there is a danger and asked to evacuate. Yes, it was arrogance - or rather confidence, since the entire Rebel attack reeked of desparation.

As I understood the argument it stems from the belief that since the Empire has a tendency to punish subordinates, it would take a serious situation for a lowly officer to approach a Grand Moff and inform him that there was a threat to the space station.

So, upon receiving the information that there was a threat to the station, Tarkin should have begun evacuations. Since he did not recognize the threat he fails.

I'm not sure about this argument either, since we never see Tarkin executing any of his officers, but again, I'm not well versed in the EU.

Just for the record...

"Enough of this! Vader, release him... This bickering is pointless!"

[Crom]

Just for the record...

"Enough of this! Vader, release him... This bickering is pointless!"

I always found it strange that the only Imperial officers slain by Vader are relatively high ranking.

Admiral Motti goaded Vader into strangling him.

Admiral Ozzel botched the approach to Hoth.

Captain Needa lost the Millennium Falcon.

I don't get the impression that it was common place in the Empire to kill an officer doing his duty by bringing an unfavorable report to a superior officer.

[Isolder74]

Just for the record...

"Enough of this! Vader, release him... This bickering is pointless!"

I always found it strange that the only Imperial officers slain by Vader are relatively high ranking.

Admiral Motti goaded Vader into strangling him.

Admiral Ozzel botched the approach to Hoth.

Captain Needa lost the Millennium Falcon.

I don't get the impression that it was common place in the Empire to kill an officer doing his duty by bringing an unfavorable report to a superior officer.

The problem is that Vader is a bit of a loose cannon in this area. The only reason Motti is even alive Is Tarkin. Do you think Vader would have stopped if he wasn't there?

[Tiriol]

And why should Tarkin had to evacuate? He was in the command of the most powerful space station of all time and suddenly he is informed that there is a danger and asked to evacuate. Yes, it was arrogance - or rather confidence, since the entire Rebel attack reeked of desparation.

As I understood the argument it stems from the belief that since the Empire has a tendency to punish subordinates, it would take a serious situation for a lowly officer to approach a Grand Moff and inform him that there was a threat to the space station.

So, upon receiving the information that there was a threat to the station, Tarkin should have begun evacuations. Since he did not recognize the threat he fails.

I'm not sure about this argument either, since we never see Tarkin executing any of his officers, but again, I'm not well versed in the EU.

Just for the record...

"Enough of this! Vader, release him... This bickering is pointless!"

And even more so, Vader didn't actually execute people for delivering him bad news (Captain Needa might be an exception, although in Vader's eyes he must have failed miserably since he allowed a hyperdrive-deprived light freighter to escape from an Imperial Star Destroyer). Ozzel was an incompetent and smug failure of an officer; Commendant Grammel of Mimban mining operations failed to keep soldiers under his jurisdiction in fighting shape and failed to keep Princess Leia Organa and Luke Skywalker detained.

Tarkin did occasionally execute people for the slightest infractions (like those who openly suggested that Daala had received her rank by sleeping with the Grand Moff) but all in all conducted himself without needlessly executing people. Imperials aren't usually portrayed as psychopaths murdering their underlings for minor foul-ups; those who did do so usually WERE psychopaths (Ysanne Isard comes to mind).

We might speculate, however, that junior officers did fear delivering bad news: it is never easy to tell your superior that something has gone wrong (even if it's not your personal fault). Furthermore, several superiors (Moffs, Grand Moffs, Vader in particular, etc.) did actually have the power of life and death over their subordinates - and in Vader's case, his supposed equals (aboard the first Death Star). It would only reinforce the dislike for being the bringer of ill news since there does exist a possibility that an irritated superior might decide to abuse his authority.

[Crown]

I think, in this context, I'm going to be a little dishonest and separate two key areas for analysis and treat them independent of each other, and draw a conclusion from each. The first area; political domination.

I don't care what anybody says; it is, clearly, irrefutable that His Most Imperial Majesty is a great mastermind in this sphere. In TPM, when his plans go totally up shit creek without a paddle, who is left smelling like roses? He is. That is the nature of the way he sets things up; he sets them that no matter what outcome, he ends up on top, and no one notices that he played them all.

The RotS novelisation has these little interludes beginning with phrases like so; 'How to set up a Jedi Trap, step 1 ... ' Basically, when he sends Obi-Wan to kill Grevious there are two outcomes; either Obi-Wan fails and is dead, thus cutting Anakin off from his one true friend, and competing father figure making it easier to turn Anakin, also robbing the Jedi of a powerful member and apt General, or Obi-Wan succeeding and killing Grevious, thus Obi-Wan doing Palpy a favour by getting rid of a lose end he was going to have to deal with otherwise.

This is the way he operates in this area.

The second area is the Apprentice Sphere. Here he still sets up these double jeopardy situations, only he seems to have a fetish to place his neck on the chopping block (as Primus has already aptly shown). Here he's a dumbass, seriously, it's obvious. But he's also insane. So, really why can't we say that yes, Palpatine was a Mastermind, but had certain disadvantages?

Cookie for the last reference.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Everything above is wrong. What about Nute Gunray and Darth Maul the first time around? They royally fucked up. His minions have always been hit and miss. He's just as obsessed with totally dominating and controlling Anakin Skywalker as he later is with Luke Skywalker. The ONLY DIFFERENCE in outcome is that Luke Skywalker was a stronger and better person, and Palpatine could not read him like he did Anakin, and ultimately, screwed up with Anakin too. Even after he came back he made the same mistake again and throught he could predict Skywalker and control him and failed. The idea that PT Palpatine was different is absurd. EVERYTHING HINGED ON PROPERLY PREDICTING ANAKIN WOULD SAVE HIM FROM WINDU. Everything came down to that disarmament. He already controlled the galaxy since before The Phantom Menace, with the Clone War having expanded his war dictatorship his power was basically unlimited, and since the Clone War began he could've unleashed Order 66 and wiped out the Jedi. He risked all of that on Anakin saving him from Windu.

You assume Palpatine planned the whole Mace Windu arrest scene. Given the enormous risk, why the fuck would he? I've always found that theory to be the height of 'omg, teh omnipotent predictor' wankery. Sounds like Thrawn's style more, actually....

"Ah, Master Windu, I take it General Grevious has been destroyed then. I must say, you're here sooner than expected."

You've obviously neither watched the film or read the novelisation, or your analysis is intentionally agenda-driven and intellectually incredible.

[Alexian Cale]

I think, in this context, I'm going to be a little dishonest and separate two key areas for analysis and treat them independent of each other, and draw a conclusion from each. The first area; political domination.

I don't care what anybody says; it is, clearly, irrefutable that His Most Imperial Majesty is a great mastermind in this sphere. In TPM, when his plans go totally up shit creek without a paddle, who is left smelling like roses? He is. That is the nature of the way he sets things up; he sets them that no matter what outcome, he ends up on top, and no one notices that he played them all.

The RotS novelisation has these little interludes beginning with phrases like so; 'How to set up a Jedi Trap, step 1 ... ' Basically, when he sends Obi-Wan to kill Grevious there are two outcomes; either Obi-Wan fails and is dead, thus cutting Anakin off from his one true friend, and competing father figure making it easier to turn Anakin, also robbing the Jedi of a powerful member and apt General, or Obi-Wan succeeding and killing Grevious, thus Obi-Wan doing Palpy a favour by getting rid of a lose end he was going to have to deal with otherwise.

This is the way he operates in this area.

The second area is the Apprentice Sphere. Here he still sets up these double jeopardy situations, only he seems to have a fetish to place his neck on the chopping block (as Primus has already aptly shown). Here he's a dumbass, seriously, it's obvious. But he's also insane. So, really why can't we say that yes, Palpatine was a Mastermind, but had certain disadvantages?

Cookie for the last reference.

As Illuminatus Primus once explained to me, "insane" is a legal term. Looking back on the issue, I would not conclude that Emperor Palpatine as of RotJ was insane (certainly in the deep stages of megalomania), because insanity implies irrationality and stupidity. Even during the Battle of Endor, Palpatine was not stupid. If anyone was incompetent, it was the Rebels -- they fell for Palpatine's plan and the Imperial trap. All did go according to plan, save for that one fatal miscalculation involving Vader.

[Illuminatus Primus]

And as I said, betting on Vader (a loyal servant of 20-odd years who betrayed literally everyone for you to say nothing of a son he never knew and met only after he'd been fully corrupted) to not kill him is a much better bet than betting on the uncorrupted Anakin Skywalker to make a choice and actively stop Windu.

[Faqa]

Everything above is wrong. What about Nute Gunray and Darth Maul the first time around? They royally fucked up. His minions have always been hit and miss. He's just as obsessed with totally dominating and controlling Anakin Skywalker as he later is with Luke Skywalker. The ONLY DIFFERENCE in outcome is that Luke Skywalker was a stronger and better person, and Palpatine could not read him like he did Anakin, and ultimately, screwed up with Anakin too. Even after he came back he made the same mistake again and throught he could predict Skywalker and control him and failed. The idea that PT Palpatine was different is absurd. EVERYTHING HINGED ON PROPERLY PREDICTING ANAKIN WOULD SAVE HIM FROM WINDU. Everything came down to that disarmament. He already controlled the galaxy since before The Phantom Menace, with the Clone War having expanded his war dictatorship his power was basically unlimited, and since the Clone War began he could've unleashed Order 66 and wiped out the Jedi. He risked all of that on Anakin saving him from Windu.

You assume Palpatine planned the whole Mace Windu arrest scene. Given the enormous risk, why the fuck would he? I've always found that theory to be the height of 'omg, teh omnipotent predictor' wankery. Sounds like Thrawn's style more, actually....

"Ah, Master Windu, I take it General Grevious has been destroyed then. I must say, you're here sooner than expected."

You've obviously neither watched the film or read the novelisation, or your analysis is intentionally agenda-driven and intellectually incredible.

And Palpatine was obviously going to do what? Wet his pants? He was fucking with Windu, and this is hardly out of character for him.

Given the fact that the whole sequence is not in keeping with Palpatine's MO, that's a much safer conclusion. I apologize for forgetting to address that line in my first post, I had honestly forgotten it.

We are faced with either accepting that the sequence was dynamic or accepting that Palpatine ridiculously over-values his own prophetic abilities. Which, given how he hedged his bets in ROTJ, seems unlikely.

[Illuminatus Primus]

And Palpatine was obviously going to do what? Wet his pants? He was fucking with Windu, and this is hardly out of character for him.

Okay, I guess I should adopt some roundabout interpretation of his dialogue rather than taking it at face value because it directly contradicts your preconceptions. Its not as if that violates parsimony for no reason or anything.

Why? Because your say-so?

Given the fact that the whole sequence is not in keeping with Palpatine's MO, that's a much safer conclusion. I apologize for forgetting to address that line in my first post, I had honestly forgotten it.

Why? Because your say-so?

We are faced with either accepting that the sequence was dynamic or accepting that Palpatine ridiculously over-values his own prophetic abilities. Which, given how he hedged his bets in ROTJ, seems unlikely.

Why? Because your say-so?

ANAKIN: I am going to turn you over to the Jedi Council.

PALPATINE: Of course you should. But you're not sure of their intentions, are you?

Its not like he did not reveal himself and then SURPRISE Anakin tries to turn him in. He's not that stupid. He clearly accounted for that. Not to mention he collected his lightsaber, entombed for decades, before they arrived. He even tells them in the ROTS novelization that he had been waiting to confront the Jedi Masters for a long time. Of course I doubt he planned to lose before Anakin even got there and nearly get killed, but he rolled with it and paid off, even though the margins were probably very narrow. Does not change my point he was willing to risk getting killed by half the Jedi Council on the trust that Anakin would choose him over his Order.

This was obviously not a surprise. Your say-so is not evidence.

[Surlethe]

And as I said, betting on Vader (a loyal servant of 20-odd years who betrayed literally everyone for you to say nothing of a son he never knew and met only after he'd been fully corrupted) to not kill him is a much better bet than betting on the uncorrupted Anakin Skywalker to make a choice and actively stop Windu.

Is it really a significantly better bet? Palpatine is closer to Anakin than even Obi-Wan is; he knows about Padme and their child, and he's already at least partly corrupted Anakin. When it comes down to it, Palpatine is really counting on the fact that for Anakin, he's made the choice between Sith and Jedi equivalent to the choice between Padme's life and death.

[Illuminatus Primus]

And as I said, betting on Vader (a loyal servant of 20-odd years who betrayed literally everyone for you to say nothing of a son he never knew and met only after he'd been fully corrupted) to not kill him is a much better bet than betting on the uncorrupted Anakin Skywalker to make a choice and actively stop Windu.

Is it really a significantly better bet? Palpatine is closer to Anakin than even Obi-Wan is; he knows about Padme and their child, and he's already at least partly corrupted Anakin. When it comes down to it, Palpatine is really counting on the fact that for Anakin, he's made the choice between Sith and Jedi equivalent to the choice between Padme's life and death.

Of course it is, all things equal. Vader is an accomplice to Palpatine's crimes and designs; his co-conspirator. Anakin Skywalker is not. Moreover, the Anakin bet requires commission; an active effort on his part in order to successfully conclude. Of all the things Anakin COULD do, he MUST arrive in time to choose Palpatine or he risked death. There are many things he could do, but only one is a success condition - all others are failures. In the Vader case, he is merely betting on omission. All Vader has to do is not kill him and he wins. There are many things he could do, but only one is an absolute failure condition.

[Patrick Degan]

After the dust settled I began to doubt my position. In your opinion is Palpatine a great mastermind?

I can't believe that this question is truly being considered, but sometimes the obvious must be stated.

Judging from his actions in the saga, Palpatine is at the forefront in terms of popular sci-fi masterminds. He was beset by several goals: a.) destroy the Republic. b.) establish galactic conquest. c.) destroy the Jedi Order.

By objectively looking at what occured, he pretty much managed to accomplish all three. And considering the vast scope of his ambition, even if we can't award him "full accomplishment", he's a mastermind of unparalleled proportions.

On the subject of Palpatine's intellect, the RotJ novelization and the DSSB confirm that Palpatine is "a genius". And his "brilliant manipulation" and intimate knowledge of people and their weaknesses has been referenced by people including Count Dooku and even so far as Jacen Solo.

The man conquered the galaxy, destroyed a twenty-five-thousand year old government, and replaced it with the largest and most powerful military regime in history. No one in the mythos has come close to matching that.

Yes, he managed all that —or rather happened to be the right man in the right time to topple a system already rotting from within after decades or even centuries of quiet decay. But those are merely means to an end, presumably, so the question really becomes, "did Palpatine achieve his ultimate ends or did he at some point lose sight of them?". On that hinges the answer to whether or not he was the brilliant mastermind or merely a cunning schemer who, in the end, was a failure.