New Fallacy - Solving the Wrong Problem

[Twoyboy]

I was wondering if this is a fallacy, and if so, has anyone come across it before. The best example is the debate (currently on in Oz) over the rights of gays and lesbians to adopt. One argument often stated is the rights of the children with respect to being discriminated against because of their same sex parents. People often say things like "imagine the treatment these kids will get at school".

I say it's solving the wrong problem. In other words, rather than stopping same sex couples adopting for that reason, we shold be trying to remove the actual problem of prejudice against them. Does this sound like a fallacy? I took the name from a Dilbert comic as well, in case anyone recognised it.

I thought of another example while reading the letters to the paper this morning. Yet another person was deriding multiculturalism, stating examples of where it won't work because of the prejudice, etc of some cultures. I think if this is the case, shouldn't we be working to fix the mistaken ideas rather than just give up?

[Feil]

I don't know much about the history of race relations in Oz, but it should be pretty easy to do apply the Standard LGBT Response Mk1: Replace "homosexual" with "black". Replace 2007 with 1967. Laugh at frantic backpedaling.

As for naming the error, that's as good a name as any. You might argue that it's a circular argument: because LGBT are discriminated against, we should discriminate against LGBT.

[Surlethe]

It's certainly a red herring, meant to distract from the real topic -- equal rights. Try applying the same logic to, say, resegregation of schools, or even slavery.

[Darth Wong]

I have seen the same argument used against interracial marriage. I have seen it used against me.

It's not so much a fallacy as a sad statement on the mentality of the person using it. They feel that the best way to approach bigotry is to appease it, and avoid doing anything that the bigots don't want you to do.

But if they're so worried about bigotry, why not pass harsh laws outlawing such expression of bigotry and instantly suspending and expelling students who taunt children in this way? That's when you run into the real problem: they would instantly reject such an idea because their whole argument is nothing more than a smokescreen. These people aren't warning you about bigots; they are bigots, and they're trying to cloak their bigotry by pretending they're protecting you from other people.

[Flagg]

Pretty much. The problem isn't the children coming from the same-sex family, it's the children who are allowed to taunt them.

A good trick to play on these fucktards is to agree with them and suggest that blacks and other minorities shouldn't be allowed to procreate as it's unfair to subject their children to the discrimination and taunting they will face.
Granted, all you will get is a "that's different", but being able to laught at them on the inside is its own reward.

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

While I don't agree with equating the difficulties of a minority vs that of someone with a "non-normal" sexual orientation, the idea that because mommy and mommy or daddy and daddy are gay will result in "ub3r discr1min4ti0nzz" is well dumb.

Assholes will be assholes, WHEREVER you go. You can get the same intense amount of treatment for being poor as you can for being the child of a same sex couple. It really depends on where you are. You can't and or should stop people from discriminating either, unless of course it becomes a really severe problem of harassment. Number one you have the freedom of speech issue. You shouldn't stifle a retarded or backwards viewpoint because. you think it's "bad" I don't think racists are right but they have right to say what they say. Think of Voltaire. Second, part of growing up is dealing with shit from other people. You'll either learn it now or later. A kids going to need to learn lessons like that. Making someone be PC denies someone of a social minority the pride that comes with earning respect through diligence and industry, and if their deriders still want to be morons, the ability to say "Ah well fuck em, they're idiots." and move on. Third can't force people to accept, so it's dumb to try anyway.[/i]

[Feil]

You're a fucking idiot.

While I don't agree with equating the difficulties of a minority vs that of someone with a "non-normal" sexual orientation,

Since when were sexual deviants not in the minority?

You can't and or should stop people from discriminating either, unless of course it becomes a really severe problem of harassment.

Do you even know what "discrimination" means in a social sense?

You shouldn't stifle a retarded or backwards viewpoint because. you think it's "bad"

Yes, you should. You should stifle it in a way that maintains their ability to say or think whatever they like within certain limits (e.g. speech that directly causes harm - incitement to riot, etc - is illegal), but you have an obligation to work against it. Or do you think that society shouldn't fight evil?

Second, part of growing up is dealing with shit from other people. You'll either learn it now or later. A kids going to need to learn lessons like that.

Part of life, for all but the luckiest people, is being physically assaulted or forced to defend against the imminent threat of physical assault. That doesn't mean it should be allowed, or that authority shouldn't try to curtail such behavior. For that matter, the fact that something is illegal doesn't mean it's not going to happen, or that people aren't going to need to deal with it.

Making someone be PC denies someone of a social minority the pride that comes with earning respect through diligence and industry, and if their deriders still want to be morons, the ability to say "Ah well fuck em, they're idiots." and move on.

What. The. Fuck. First, what the fuck does political correctness have to do with antidiscrimination? Second, are you seriously suggesting that being verbally abused is a good thing? Next, are you going to suggest institutionalizing hazing to give people "pride that comes with earning respect through diligence and industry"? Third, I know you're probably an unemployed loser, but everybody has to "earn respect through diligence and industry", and gosh darned if they don't tend to be proud when they've done it.

Third can't force people to accept, so it's dumb to try anyway.

Can't force people to not commit murder, so it's dumb to try anyway.

[Twoyboy]

As for naming the error, that's as good a name as any. You might argue that it's a circular argument: because LGBT are discriminated against, we should discriminate against LGBT.

It's not so much a fallacy as a sad statement on the mentality of the person using it. They feel that the best way to approach bigotry is to appease it, and avoid doing anything that the bigots don't want you to do

Hmmm, I suppose it's not a fallacy as such as it is just a retarded argument.

While I don't agree with equating the difficulties of a minority vs that of someone with a "non-normal" sexual orientation, the idea that because mommy and mommy or daddy and daddy are gay will result in "ub3r discr1min4ti0nzz" is well dumb.

Assholes will be assholes, WHEREVER you go. You can get the same intense amount of treatment for being poor as you can for being the child of a same sex couple. It really depends on where you are. You can't and or should stop people from discriminating either, unless of course it becomes a really severe problem of harassment. Number one you have the freedom of speech issue. You shouldn't stifle a retarded or backwards viewpoint because. you think it's "bad" I don't think racists are right but they have right to say what they say. Think of Voltaire. Second, part of growing up is dealing with shit from other people. You'll either learn it now or later. A kids going to need to learn lessons like that. Making someone be PC denies someone of a social minority the pride that comes with earning respect through diligence and industry, and if their deriders still want to be morons, the ability to say "Ah well fuck em, they're idiots." and move on. Third can't force people to accept, so it's dumb to try anyway.[/i]

I had a fair amount of difficulty understanding that, but if I read correctly you're saying that just as we shouldn't stop same sex couples adopting, we also can't stop people discriminating against them, so why try?

Now, I wanted to argue the fallacy here, not the example, but this is a pet peeve of mine. Discrimination and other justifiably criminal acts should always be fought against, whether we believe we can win or not. It's what keeps the arseholes in check. With this kind of attitude, we'd still be living in the freaking dark ages.

[Flagg]

You shouldn't stifle a retarded or backwards viewpoint because. you think it's "bad"

Oh, I'm in total agreement there. You should stifle a retarded or backwards viewpoint because it's fucking wrong. It also hurts people and society as a whole, fucko.

[Alyrium Denryle]

While I don't agree with equating the difficulties of a minority vs that of someone with a "non-normal" sexual orientation,

Ok. Let me walk you through a day of my freshman year of high school. Bear in mind, I was not even out yet, didnt stop anyone.

Go to school. Get called a fag, queer, occassionally nancy boy before my first class. Go to class. After my second class I get asked if I like girls a few times. Get harassed before my third class. Lunch. Get my personal possessions knocked out of my hands. Get to the front of the line after ten minutes. Forgot my ID, get sent to the back of the line by student worker despite my ability to pay in cash instead of my student account, and despite the person before me not having their ID and being served food anyway. Once I am at the back of the line, someone attempts to shove a coke bottle up my rectum. Other people laugh, and call me a queer. I fight the fucker off and leave. Sit down in a dark corner of the library until the Asst Principle sees me as she walks through and asks what is wrong. I inform her. Asshole gets suspended for three days (for attempted sexual assault). Go through the rest of my classes, enduring the usual harassment, then go home. Dont talk about the coke bottle incident for 6 years

That was one day. Just one. Now imagine three years of similar from 7th through 9th grades, then fuck off.

the idea that because mommy and mommy or daddy and daddy are gay will result in "ub3r discr1min4ti0nzz" is well dumb.

Depends on where they are. But gay kids across the country have it about as bad as I did. So it wouldn't surprise me if the kids of known gay people get similar treatment.

Assholes will be assholes, WHEREVER you go. You can get the same intense amount of treatment for being poor as you can for being the child of a same sex couple.

Has it occured to you that that is... oh... I dont know...wrong? Do you know what it is like to be dehumanized? Every day?

It really depends on where you are. You can't and or should stop people from discriminating either, unless of course it becomes a really severe problem of harassment.

Wait? Yo mean we should not stop people from being victimized? Here, let me get some paperwork for you, it looks like you need to file for chapter 11 moral bankruptcy.

Number one you have the freedom of speech issue. You shouldn't stifle a retarded or backwards viewpoint because. you think it's "bad" I don't think racists are right but they have right to say what they say.

Sure, they have a right to be racists. They have a right to say that black people should be segregated, so long as they keep that to a political arena. What they do NOT have the right to do is call a black kid a nigger, an arab a towel-head, or wet their fingers, tap a mexican kid on the neck and call him, a wetback.

Any right ends when it begins to infringe upon the rights of others. You can swing your fist as much as you want. It is your fist. But the moment it contacts my jaw, I file battery charges.

Second, part of growing up is dealing with shit from other people. You'll either learn it now or later. A kids going to need to learn lessons like that. Making someone be PC denies someone of a social minority the pride that comes with earning respect through diligence and industry,

No. A kid does not need to learn lessons like that. They should not have to. Gentle teasing for wearing funny clothes is one thing. Constant discrimination, assault, and harassment are another matter entirely and it is morally wrong that we have a system, perpetuated by ethically bankrupt little ignorami like you that prop up and support it. You have no idea what it is like to be afraid to go to school for fear that someone will harass or assault you. Do you know how many gay students kill themselves? Here, let me show you some stats on what happens to gay students, not just at school, but at home as well.



Would it shock you to find out what it is actually very difficult to be gay? Yeah, yeah I know the question seems silly. Of course it is. But the sheer magnitude of it does not hit people until they look at some numbers.

In a recent study conducted in New York State, 78% of the sampled gay/bisexual youth reported experiencing verbal abuse. 11% reported physical abuse, and 9% reported sexual abuse. These averages are heavily skewed toward males with 15% of males compared to 7% of females reporting physical abuse by their peers, and 14% of males reporting sexual abuse compared to 5% of females. I have not told many people this, but in the 9th grade I was assaulted with a soda bottle in the lunch line, someone assaulted my rectum with it, thankfully I had pants on...

Males reported being victimized my males (94%) and females reported being victimized by both males (56%) and females (44%)

In the following I will directly site the study.

"All youth reported being upset by their first SOV(Sexual Orientation Violence) experience, with 73% reporting being very or extremely upset. Examples of verbal SOV experiences and when they occurred were (a) Male, at 10: “My mom was screaming at me, calling me a ‘fucking faggot’ and ‘cocksucker.’ I just cried and cried.” (b) Female, at
17: “Mom ‘went off’ on me, called me a ‘dyke.’” (c) Female, at 18: “A 50-year-old man, a religious fanatic, called me evil, and said that me and my girlfriend were ‘nasty,’ and called our relationship an abomination.” (Grossman et al 2006)

"Most youth (89%) reported being very or extremely upset at the first occurrence. Examples of physical SOV were (a) Male, at 17: “I was a wrestler, and another wrestler didn’t like my being gay, so he beat me with a stick and broke my nose.” (b) Female,
at 8: “I was beaten up by older girls. They dragged me along the floor, banged my head on the monkey-bars, kicked me, and punched my stomach.” (c) Male, at 16: “Some older boys threw a basketball in my face because I wore a pink shirt." " (Grossman et al 2006)

All sexual attackers were males

"Sexual SOV started at 13.5 years old for youth reporting it, with events occurring earlier for males (13) than females (16). All reported sexual SOV acts were committed by males. Of males and females who experienced sexual SOV, 27% were victimized by friends, 26% by acquaintances, and 15% by strangers. The locations most frequently reported where the first SOV occurred were: 34% at home and 13% in public settings. Nearly all youth (97%) reported being very or extremely upset by this first sexual
SOV experience. Examples of sexual SOV were (a) Female, at 18: “I was in a conversation at a party and mentioned that I was bi. One of the guys took me into a private room and forced me to have sex.” (b) Male, at 9: “My stepfather raped me a lot and tried to fist me. I bled so much I had to go to the ER and get 16 stitches.” (c) Male, at 16: “I told an attendant in a hospital that I was gay, and he forced me to give him a blowjob.”" (Grossman et al 2006)

9% of GLB youth meet the criteria for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

A review of multiple studies also indicates a problem.

25-50% Bisexual and Lesbian girls reported being sexually abused, compared to 10-25% of heterosexual girls.

The rate of sexual abuse of boys is well under 10% however 25% of bisexual males and 20% of gay males in these surveys reported being sexually assaulted. When the numbers are age-adjusted non-heterosexual girls are twice as likely to report being sexually assaulted or abused, while non-heterosexual boys are 5-10 times more likely. (Saewyc et al 2006)

Are you angry yet? Because I am frothing at the mouth. I can cite study after study, and multipel case files. Gay and Bisexual youth are more likely to be verbally [hysically, and sexually abused by their family and peers than straight youth. They are more likely to be kicked out of their homes (18-21% of homeless youth identify as GLBT and considering they make up only 2-6% of the population at large...), they are more likely to be addicted to drugs, they are more likely to become prostitutes and they are MANY times more likely to attempt suicide or have suicidal ideation. I am going to come right out and say it. This is fucking disgusting. These kids have been failed in every conceivable way. Their parents abuse or reject them, and I don't know what is worse. The schools and teachers fail these kids because they either aren't there to stop the abuse or don't care. The entire safety net system we have in place to help these kids has failed them and they are left crying in the dark with nowhere to go and no one to turn to. On the streets it is even worse. The statistics are so unfathomably sad I wont show them, just reference the study and post a summary.

Whitbeck, Les B., Chen, Xiaojin, Hoyt, Dan R., Tyler, Kimberly A., Johnson, Kurt D. "Mental Disorder, Subsistence Strategies, and Victimization Among Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexual Homeless and Runaway Adolescents". Journal of Sex Research: Vol 41 issue 4 Nov 2004

They are more likely to engage in sexual survival strategies (IE exchanging sex for money, food, or shelter) they are more likely to be sexually abused by adult "caretakers" and they are more likely to be physically abused while on the streets. They are more likely to meet the criteria for depression, PTSD, and Suicidal Ideation. Half report at least one suicide attempt (compared to a third of heterosexual homeless and runaway teens)

On the flip side, they were less likely than heterosexuals to meet the criteria for conduct disorders, and gay males were less likely to abuse alcohol and drugs than heterosexual runaways and homeless. I wish I could say the same for lesbians but their likelihood of abusing drugs and alcohol is almost double that of heterosexual females.

You know, when I was younger I used to think that certain tactics used by the gay community, of which I am a part were in error. I used to think that things like pride parades and even the Day of Silence were overly grandiose gestures used to draw attention to a non-issue. Even though I experienced lesser degrees of the same violence that these kids experience daily,part of that was a defense mechanism because I experienced everything short of a successful sexual assault and couldn't face it. But I also took it for granted that I had a loving family and supportive friends that kept me relatively safe and helped me maintain my grasp on sanity. I don't think that anymore. As I have grown as a person and matured, I have realized something. People just...don't care. They stand by and watch as homosexual teenager is beaten. They do nothing as a lesbian is sexually harassed by their classmates. School principles will ignore or even rebuke the pleas of a gay student begging for protection from constant abuse by their fellow students, counselors will "out" gay students to their parents, knowing by the nature of their profession the harm it can do, they violate the trust of these kids and don't give a rats ass.

Do I have a solution? I don't think a single solution can work here. It would be very nice to be a reductionist and say that "if we do X we can fix this problem" Sadly, getting people to see a minority group as human beings worthy of protection and respect is difficult for some reason I can't fucking fathom. The best I can do is literally to just raise your collective awareness. The best I can do is say that the parents who cast out their gay children, the educators who fail in their duty to protect their gay students, they are NOT just negligent. They are evil. They are just as evil as the people who do the beating, just as evil as pimps, just as evil as the drug dealers, and just as evil as the people who give a 14 year old transgendered girl 10 bucks to give them a blowjob in a parking lot. This sort of evil cannot ever be excused by a civilized people. I don't care what you think about homosexuals or the transgendered. No one deserves that.

Ever.

Sources

Saewyc, E, et al. "Hazards of Stigma: The Sexual and Physical Abuse of Gay, Lesbian,and Bisexual Adolescents in the United States and Canada." Child Welfare; 2006, Vol. 85 Issue 2, p195-213.

Grossman A, et al. "Childhood Gender Atypicality, Victimization,and PTSD Among Lesbian,
Gay, and Bisexual Youth" Journal of Interpersonal Violence; 2006, Vol. 21 No. 11, p1462-1482


Still think it is dumb that we try to stop this? Or when I call you "dumb as a brick" will I continue to insult the dignity of bricks?

[Surlethe]

You can't and or should stop people from discriminating either, unless of course it becomes a really severe problem of harassment.

What's your definition of "discrimination", that it's not in and of itself harassment?

Number one you have the freedom of speech issue. You shouldn't stifle a retarded or backwards viewpoint because. you think it's "bad" I don't think racists are right but they have right to say what they say. Think of Voltaire. Second, part of growing up is dealing with shit from other people. You'll either learn it now or later. A kids going to need to learn lessons like that. Making someone be PC denies someone of a social minority the pride that comes with earning respect through diligence and industry, and if their deriders still want to be morons, the ability to say "Ah well fuck em, they're idiots." and move on.

They have a right to believe what they want, but they don't have a guaranteed right to act on those beliefs or to incite others to act. By your asinine "logic", there's no need to outlaw attempted murder.

Third can't force people to accept, so it's dumb to try anyway.[/i]

Yes, you can. See Brown vs Board of Education.

[Darth Wong]

What the fuck is this "freedom of speech in school" bullshit anyway? Kids in school don't have freedom of speech. Hell, you can't even talk in class at all unless the teacher allows you to.

[Flagg]

What the fuck is this "freedom of speech in school" bullshit anyway? Kids in school don't have freedom of speech. Hell, you can't even talk in class at all unless the teacher allows you to.

It's within certain limits. You have the right to it, but if it's "disruptive" then it can be curbed. And certain forms are more protected than others.

Like if you went to school wearing a '4:20' T-shirt then that's not even close to protected. But if it's some kind of political thing, wearing a black armband in prtoterst of a war for instance, then it's supposed to be allowed.

Though I don't know that even that is permissible anymore.

I'm a bit torn on the issue, since I think that if a teacher is talking out of their ass and is obviousely wrong about something then you have the right to disagree with them without facing punitive action as long as it's respectful. But at the same time, there is disruptive shit that just shouldn't be tolerated.

[Darth Lucifer]

...the idea that because mommy and mommy or daddy and daddy are gay will result in "ub3r discr1min4ti0nzz" is well dumb.

Since other posters have hit all the other major points, I'm just going to go off on your ignoramous @$$.

[rant]What kind of fucking planet do you live on? Only in a Disneyland utopia would this idiotic statement have any shred of truth to it. You obviously don't live here on Earth, in the real world. Pull your fucking head out of your ass, you meat-headed shitsack![/rant]

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

Since when were sexual deviants not in the minority?

Sorry should have been more specific. Rather late and I had a bit of trouble getting my words together. What I should have said was a "racial" minority vs that of a "social" or "sexual" minority.

Do you even know what "discrimination" means in a social sense?

Yet again my err. I was referring more along the lines of verbal harassment and or social discrimination by fellow school mates, not necessarily by those who are part of a school administrative body.

Yes, you should. You should stifle it in a way that maintains their ability to say or think whatever they like within certain limits, but you have an obligation to work against it. Or do you think that society shouldn't fight evil?

No I agree with you on this. I apologize for most of my thoughts being incomplete. However I cautiously make sweeping distinctions as good or evil since morals within a society are largely based on culture, social norms, religious, and things like those. As a result, they are highly subjective to what might be deemed popular. I'm not saying that fighting obvious wrongs is wrong, but getting in to a pattern of thinking where one thinks one is right because of such and so, and society or another group is wrong because of such and so, is bad. In my mind I prefer the idea of education and encouraging to accept an idea. At the very least trying to make concessions in it's regard rather than outright "fighting" it.

Part of life, for all but the luckiest people, is being physically assaulted or forced to defend against the imminent threat of physical assault. That doesn't mean it should be allowed, or that authority shouldn't try to curtail such behavior. For that matter, the fact that something is illegal doesn't mean it's not going to happen, or that people aren't going to need to deal with it.

No I was not suggesting physical violence or the imminent threat of such. I do believe I said treatment shouldn't reach a "severe problem of harassment." which I would assume physical violence and the like would be grouped under.

What the fuck does political correctness have to do with antidiscrimination?

Political correctness often gets out of hand because of an over eagerness to pander or to make amends to a particular group which has in the past undergone discrimination.

Second, are you seriously suggesting that being verbally abused is a good thing? Next, are you going to suggest institutionalizing hazing to give people "pride that comes with earning respect through diligence and industry"? Third, I know you're probably an unemployed loser, but everybody has to "earn respect through diligence and industry", and gosh darned if they don't tend to be proud when they've done it.

I suppose I would be saying that verbal abuse to a degree would be a good thing. I'm only saying this because of what I have heard from those in my family about the abuses they recieved while in school and growing up. At the time they all agreed it sucked, however as they grew, they realized it made them stronger individuals and toughened them to harsher challenges as adults. I wouldn't condone hazing or anything of that sort. And third I wish I could say I'm an unemployed loser because I'd have a lot more free time. Unfortunately I'm a full time student and I hold down a part time job (20-30 hours a week) and am the only person in my household with a job of any kind (school or otherwise). And while everyone needs to earn respect through industry, not everyone does, unless they really have to fight for shit for it, yet again referencing my aforementioned family members.

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

Ok. Let me walk you through a day of my freshman year of high school. Bear in mind, I was not even out yet, didn't stop anyone.

Go to school. Get called a fag, queer, occasionally nancy boy before my first class. Go to class. After my second class I get asked if I like girls a few times. Get harassed before my third class. Lunch. Get my personal possessions knocked out of my hands. Get to the front of the line after ten minutes. Forgot my ID, get sent to the back of the line by student worker despite my ability to pay in cash instead of my student account, and despite the person before me not having their ID and being served food anyway. Once I am at the back of the line, someone attempts to shove a coke bottle up my rectum. Other people laugh, and call me a queer. I fight the fucker off and leave. Sit down in a dark corner of the library until the Asst Principle sees me as she walks through and asks what is wrong. I inform her. Asshole gets suspended for three days (for attempted sexual assault). Go through the rest of my classes, enduring the usual harassment, then go home. Don't talk about the coke bottle incident for 6 years

That was one day. Just one. Now imagine three years of similar from 7th through 9th grades, then fuck off.

I was not intending to touch on this issue, since I do get massive amounts of flak about it but I will since you mentioned your experience.

First off let me say that coming out freshman year is really impressive. Most people I know have waited till junior or senior year. That's amazing. I doubt you knew you'd have as shit rough a time as that, but doing so when you're basically back at the bottom of the shit barrel and are gay is incredibly brave. I don't think if I had wanted or needed to do the same thing I could have done it. I can't really think of anyway to express how impressed I am and not seem pretentious or false.

Now I may be speaking from a point of ignorance and I probably am, but I have always been one to see homosexuality as two things. Sexual and social. I'm not saying homosexuality is a social "choice". You don't choose to be gay. I understand that, accept it, would never argue it. It's as plain to me as 2+2=4. However, public knowledge of ones homosexuality, at least from my perspective, is always a choice and thus the behavior one exhibits while being public about their homosexuality makes it a social choice. And I'm not talking about some crazy flamboyant behavior. Just normal relations with someone of the same sex or something as simple as saying "I'm gay. Yes I like men". I've always thought that if a person was gay they could just hide it and that only under tremendous mental pressure does one come out if they have too (unless it's socially acceptable where they live), especially in open knowledge of the type of discrimination they would face. But I've always thought that, unless a person definitively says "I'm gay" or is caught kissing a person of the same sex or does SOMETHING that is obviously homosexual, knowledge of their homosexuality is largely concealed. Someone could be effeminate, they could talk a certain way, or whatever. But not being homosexuality can be feigned, at least in my mind, because there isn't some massive physical marker that one can automatically say "Aha! That's a homosexual!" Albeit this is done under immense mental pressure. Racial identity can not be hidden, at least to the same extent as homosexuality. Some people of a minority may be able to "pass" as a socially acceptable race but largely you're screwed because you can't physically hide what you are. There were men who were gay under nazi Germany but were able to hide it. If you were a Jew, your family history could be traced and you were off the the camps (for religious and ethnic groups it's slightly different since you can hide those to varying degrees too). I can't hide my skin color. An person of Asian descent, can't hide their characteristics. If a person wanted to kill all Blacks, Jews, Asians, Indians, and etc, they could to a far greater extent and it would be far easier (from an identification standpoint) than they would if they wanted to kill all gays, lesbians, and bisexuals. Even if there was some way to magically detect it people could and would still be born gay or lesbian or bisexual so in reality it'd be impossible to eliminate. To me, that's one reason why it's not the same.

Second, as a group, homosexuals through out history have not been targeted in the same manner as a racial, religious, or ethnic minority because homosexuality isn't separate homogeneous group, meaning there isn't a nation or group of homosexuals that is exclusive unto themselves. Homosexuality can be within a populace. A group can target a racial, religious, or ethnic group because they are easily distinguishable from the main group. Homosexuality is something that can be internal and you can't just say "Aha! That's a gay!" and than kill or shun. With a racial, religious, or ethnic group, you can do that because by their nature they are distinct.

Third, historically the nature of the damage done to homosexuals as opposed to an ethnic group is different from that of an ethnic, racial, or religious group. Homosexuals, where ever they are, are most likely, going to take on the cultural, religious, ethnic, and racial identity of whatever group they are born into. Thus if the discrimination is internal, that of a group against it's own homosexuals, the loss as a result of killing or rejection is only that of homosexuals. With an ethnic, religious, or racial group, culture, language, physical characteristics, mental characteristics, knowledge, and philosophies that are characteristic of a group have been severely damaged or wiped out because of ethnic, religious, or racial hatred. Even if it's not the goal to eliminate, assimilation of a culture into another still destroys many of those things. But from my observation there is no gay "culture" that exists to the same degree as a racial, ethnic, or religious one. Homosexuality and being gay is largely a sexual preference and not a unique cultural distinction that would come from a racial, ethnic, or religious group.

I am NOT saying; however, that the kinds discrimination faced by people who are homosexuals is any different than that from. Or that because they are gay that it's more acceptable to discriminate against homosexuals. I would never say that, ever. Nor that discrimination and harassment as severe as you illustrated is acceptable or occurs only to racial, ethnic, or religious minorities. They should be stopped when it gets that bad and preferably contained to verbal haggling, not being allowed to escalate. What I am saying though is that the nature of the discrimination between homosexuals and that of other minorities can not be equated because of their vast differences.

Note: I've pretty much only used the word homosexual and gay. I am; however, referring to all sexual orientations. Gay, lesbian, trans-gender, and bisexual individuals and have used only gay and homosexual for simplicities sake.

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

Ugh. My hand was shaking when I hit the submit button. I absolutely know I'm going to get massively flamed but I figure if I state my opinion in a respectful and organized manner, it shouldn't bee too bad.

Right, last one, Surleth. You mentioned Brown v. Board of Education. This may be a bit of a tangent but if I am understanding your mentioning of it correctly you are referring it to forcing the establishment to break down a system which is wrong because segregation was wrong if I'm getting it correctly. Or is it that segregation for the purpose of disenfranchisement was/is wrong? For topic at hand I would have to say that part one isn't necessarily true (if that's your point). Even now (and oddly enough on topic) segregation does exist for gay, lesbian, and trans-gender youth. In NYC there is a school which is (I would assume) exclusively gay, lesbian, and trans-gender. This provides a segregated environment in which they can hopefully learn without the stresses of "normal" sexually integrated schools. So segregation isn't necessarily a bad thing, just depends on what it's for and how it's carried out. However, if it's point two, well I of course I agree.

Just as a note, the case did not address the point of segregation and whether it is constitutional or not. It addressed the point that segregated educational facilities led to inherently unequal results in education and thus Plessy v. Ferguson which set the precedent for "separate but equal" was in fact false because learning environments segregated by law where inherently unequal. Had blacks been receiving equal treatment in their schools as whites, I doubt the case would have even been created.

[Ryan Thunder]

While I don't agree with equating the difficulties of a minority vs that of someone with a "non-normal" sexual orientation,

Ok. Let me walk you through a day of my freshman year of high school. Bear in mind, I was not even out yet, didnt stop anyone.

Go to school. Get called a fag, queer, occassionally nancy boy before my first class. Go to class. After my second class I get asked if I like girls a few times. Get harassed before my third class. Lunch. Get my personal possessions knocked out of my hands. Get to the front of the line after ten minutes. Forgot my ID, get sent to the back of the line by student worker despite my ability to pay in cash instead of my student account, and despite the person before me not having their ID and being served food anyway. Once I am at the back of the line, someone attempts to shove a coke bottle up my rectum. Other people laugh, and call me a queer. I fight the fucker off and leave. Sit down in a dark corner of the library until the Asst Principle sees me as she walks through and asks what is wrong. I inform her. Asshole gets suspended for three days (for attempted sexual assault). Go through the rest of my classes, enduring the usual harassment, then go home. Dont talk about the coke bottle incident for 6 years

That was one day. Just one. Now imagine three years of similar from 7th through 9th grades, then fuck off.

[...]

Still think it is dumb that we try to stop this? Or when I call you "dumb as a brick" will I continue to insult the dignity of bricks?

Hell no. Discrimination, especially shit like that, is just outright unacceptable.

Sure, I tend to ask myself "What the hell more do they want?" But I think I get it now...

Even so, you must've been in a pretty nasty spot... I can pretty well promise you that you probably would have been regarded highly around here for being gay.

Of course, there are still the few asshats, and I was one of them for a while, but they're in the extreme minority...

[Alyrium Denryle]

First off let me say that coming out freshman year is really impressive. Most people I know have waited till junior or senior year. That's amazing. I doubt you knew you'd have as shit rough a time as that, but doing so when you're basically back at the bottom of the shit barrel and are gay is incredibly brave. I don't think if I had wanted or needed to do the same thing I could have done it. I can't really think of anyway to express how impressed I am and not seem pretentious or false.

I was not out my freshman year. I was only perceived as gay. I came out my sophomore year, because it couldnt get much worse than it had. No point hiding if the morons already know you are there. Might as well out yourself in the middle of history class, so you can earn an ounce of respect for having a set of balls.

And then be disowned by half your family... oh look. Got worse.

I knew full well what a rough time I would have in my school. I lived in Mesa Arizona, fundy mormon capitol of the state. My school was in Mormon hell, and three kilometers down the street started the Meth Lab Heaven. So the ones that were not bigoted mormons were the bottom of the socio-economic barrel, and they need someone to victimize in order to feel good about themselves.

I knew full well, which is why I didnt come out when I figured out I was gay, until I reasoned using the line of thinking I laid out above

And I'm not talking about some crazy flamboyant behavior. Just normal relations with someone of the same sex or something as simple as saying "I'm gay. Yes I like men". I've always thought that if a person was gay they could just hide it and that only under tremendous mental pressure does one come out if they have too

Look kid. Would you like to live a lie? Do you know how isolating that closet is? I am a very honest (to the point of being blunt) friendly, and affectionate person. You can describe my demeanor as that of a friendly lovable sledgehammer. How easy do you think a person with those personality traits can hide something as fundamental to their personality as their sexual orientation? I need emotionally close relationships with people. Being in the closet for me was like stepping into an empty Narnia. No Mr. Thomnas, no Aslan. Lucy, Peter, the Beavers, Not there. Only a white witch who takes a special pleasure in making me cold and lonely in her ice prison.

Being in the closet is one of the most isolating things one can experience. Imagine it. You identify your entire life as straight, you take it for granted that you will grow up, get married, raise a family, and be happy. Then you hit puberty and realize that you are sexually attracted to the other guys in the locker room. All of the the sudden you realize that you cant meet the expectations put upon you by society unless you live a lie. Hell, in many cases you cannot even be physically safe unless you live a lie.

You know what the real life functional difference is between being gay and racial identity? You cant hide your racial identity. Your race does not hit you like a ton of bricks at the age of 13. You can identify other members of your racial group and build a social support network, you can band together for mutual defense, form organizations. We cant. Not only because so many of us cower in fear, fear for our lives, our jobs, our friendships: But also because we are not your legal equals and thus in some areas CANT form organizations, or join existing ones. You know what you fucking moron, when someone beats a black man to death for being black, people get pissed. When a gay man gets beaten to death, a viable defense is to claim "gay panic" IE (I figured out he was gay, or he flirted with me, and that justifies why i beat him, dragged him behind a truck, then left him in the woods to die) That strategy gets allowed into court rooms and is effective at reducing sentences and even getting acquittals. If someone tried to introduce a "black panic" defense into a court, the judge would laugh and find the defense in contempt for insulting his intelligence.

I will NOT tolerate that. I will not cower in fear. I will NEVER be a victim again, or suffer anyone else to be, and I will have words with anyone that even THINKS to suggest that It is a reasonable choice for me to do otherwise.

Second, as a group, homosexuals through out history have not been targeted in the same manner as a racial, religious, or ethnic minority because homosexuality isn't separate homogeneous group, meaning there isn't a nation or group of homosexuals that is exclusive unto themselves. Homosexuality can be within a populace. A group can target a racial, religious, or ethnic group because they are easily distinguishable from the main group. Homosexuality is something that can be internal and you can't just say "Aha! That's a gay!" and than kill or shun. With a racial, religious, or ethnic group, you can do that because by their nature they are distinct.

Have you had your head buried so far up your ass that you did not notice the last election cycle? Even if you live outside the US, you should have noticed the pesky little fact that our politicians get elected by the sweat of our backs. Not because they court our vote and do nice things for us, but because they actively support discriminating against us. Because they campaign on protecting the populace from our "assaults on marriage" or our "predation on their children"

So yes, we are specifically targeted for discrimination. By our own fucking government.

Third, historically the nature of the damage done to homosexuals as opposed to an ethnic group is different from that of an ethnic, racial, or religious group. Homosexuals, where ever they are, are most likely, going to take on the cultural, religious, ethnic, and racial identity of whatever group they are born into. Thus if the discrimination is internal, that of a group against it's own homosexuals, the loss as a result of killing or rejection is only that of homosexuals. With an ethnic, religious, or racial group, culture, language, physical characteristics, mental characteristics, knowledge, and philosophies that are characteristic of a group have been severely damaged or wiped out because of ethnic, religious, or racial hatred. Even if it's not the goal to eliminate, assimilation of a culture into another still destroys many of those things. But from my observation there is no gay "culture" that exists to the same degree as a racial, ethnic, or religious one. Homosexuality and being gay is largely a sexual preference and not a unique cultural distinction that would come from a racial, ethnic, or religious group.

This is true. but now you are going into Red Herring territory.

They should be stopped when it gets that bad and preferably contained to verbal haggling

Even verbal nagging should be stopped, because it isolates and dehumanizes. The phrase "sticks and stones may break my bones but words may never hurt me" is a damned lie.

What I am saying though is that the nature of the discrimination between homosexuals and that of other minorities can not be equated because of their vast differences.

And I am saying you are so full of shit, that you are about to explode under the stress and cover your home with foul smelling fecal material.

Just as a note, the case did not address the point of segregation and whether it is constitutional or not. It addressed the point that segregated educational facilities led to inherently unequal results in education and thus Plessy v. Ferguson which set the precedent for "separate but equal" was in fact false because learning environments segregated by law where inherently unequal. Had blacks been receiving equal treatment in their schools as whites, I doubt the case would have even been created.

That decision was less about the physical conditions of the school, and more about the dichotomy it inherently creates. The moment you isolate a group of people and say "We need to remain separate from you" you are saying that one group is superior to or inferior too the other. it is inherently not equal as a result because it sets up a legally enforced hierarchy. The only way it is every justified is fro the physical protection of one group from the other.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Yet again my err. I was referring more along the lines of verbal harassment and or social discrimination by fellow school mates, not necessarily by those who are part of a school administrative body.

Doesnt really matter, we get both varieties.

. I'm not saying that fighting obvious wrongs is wrong, but getting in to a pattern of thinking where one thinks one is right because of such and so, and society or another group is wrong because of such and so, is bad.

I disagree. Morality at its roots is about Empathy. We evolved it. The ability to empathize with another creature and think to one's self "Damn I wouldnt like this happening to me" can be thought of as the ONLY moral precept that exists as a metaphysical property inherent to humanity (and probably a few other species) It forms the basis of ALL other moral ideas that do not spring from religious command "ethics".

At the very least trying to make concessions in it's regard rather than outright "fighting" it.

"Yes, let's compromise! You cannot sew your 7 year old daughter's vagina shut with a acacia thorn. You have to use a needle! And you there! You cant beat the gay kid to death, but you CAN get together with your friends and harass him to the point that he commits suicide."

Political correctness often gets out of hand because of an over eagerness to pander or to make amends to a particular group which has in the past undergone discrimination.

You say "In the past" like discrimination even on ethnic and religious grounds has stopped. I would really like to give you more credit that I am right now, please tell me you at least have a periscope so that you can see from inside your colon.

At the time they all agreed it sucked, however as they grew, they realized it made them stronger individuals and toughened them to harsher challenges as adults.

That is a coping mechanism. Like Stockholm syndrome. They suffered, and have to find a way to rationalize it.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Aly, you've stated in the plainest terms why I support Pink Pistols and the right to own and carry a firearm for defense. Sometimes defending your right to exist at equal terms involves real bullets flying.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Pretty much

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

I was not out my freshman year. I was only perceived as gay. I came out my sophomore year, because it couldnt get much worse than it had. No point hiding if the morons already know you are there. Might as well out yourself in the middle of history class, so you can earn an ounce of respect for having a set of balls.

And then be disowned by half your family... oh look. Got worse.

I knew full well what a rough time I would have in my school. I lived in Mesa Arizona, fundy mormon capitol of the state. My school was in Mormon hell, and three kilometers down the street started the Meth Lab Heaven. So the ones that were not bigoted mormons were the bottom of the socio-economic barrel, and they need someone to victimize in order to feel good about themselves.

I knew full well, which is why I didnt come out when I figured out I was gay, until I reasoned using the line of thinking I laid out above

Wow. That's crazy. You didn't even say you were gay. Honestly, if you'd been my bud, I'd of cracked some skulls for you now and then, before and after coming out.

Look kid. Would you like to live a lie? Do you know how isolating that closet is? I am a very honest (to the point of being blunt) friendly, and affectionate person. You can describe my demeanor as that of a friendly lovable sledgehammer. How easy do you think a person with those personality traits can hide something as fundamental to their personality as their sexual orientation? I need emotionally close relationships with people. Being in the closet for me was like stepping into an empty Narnia. No Mr. Thomnas, no Aslan. Lucy, Peter, the Beavers, Not there. Only a white witch who takes a special pleasure in making me cold and lonely in her ice prison.

Being in the closet is one of the most isolating things one can experience. Imagine it. You identify your entire life as straight, you take it for granted that you will grow up, get married, raise a family, and be happy. Then you hit puberty and realize that you are sexually attracted to the other guys in the locker room. All of the the sudden you realize that you cant meet the expectations put upon you by society unless you live a lie. Hell, in many cases you cannot even be physically safe unless you live a lie.

You know what the real life functional difference is between being gay and racial identity? You cant hide your racial identity. Your race does not hit you like a ton of bricks at the age of 13. You can identify other members of your racial group and build a social support network, you can band together for mutual defense, form organizations. We cant. Not only because so many of us cower in fear, fear for our lives, our jobs, our friendships: But also because we are not your legal equals and thus in some areas CANT form organizations, or join existing ones. You know what you fucking moron, when someone beats a black man to death for being black, people get pissed. When a gay man gets beaten to death, a viable defense is to claim "gay panic" IE (I figured out he was gay, or he flirted with me, and that justifies why i beat him, dragged him behind a truck, then left him in the woods to die) That strategy gets allowed into court rooms and is effective at reducing sentences and even getting acquittals. If someone tried to introduce a "black panic" defense into a court, the judge would laugh and find the defense in contempt for insulting his intelligence.

I will NOT tolerate that. I will not cower in fear. I will NEVER be a victim again, or suffer anyone else to be, and I will have words with anyone that even THINKS to suggest that It is a reasonable choice for me to do otherwise.

In no way do I think it's a wonderful or reasonable option. I'm saying that it IS and option. Would I advocate it? No. I can't. I'm not gay. I don't know what it's like. I can imagine if there were some process by which I could be white for a while. Would I do it now? No I don't need to, I can live being black. If I were in an oppressive society where my skin color could get me killed? Abso-fucking-lutely. In my mind survival take priority. You've educated me a lot though. I didn't realize it sucked so hard to be gay and having people hate you. It's nuts that shit like this still goes on. Fortunately, in contemporary society, the same actions that took place in the past against minorities are not socially acceptable (for the most part) and safe nets such as hate crimes (yes you can get prosecuted for an anti-gay hate crime, as rare as it may be it exists) to prosecute abusers and violent individuals. But what you mention black people and minorities having the ability to do NOW is not what they were allowed to do in the past. They didn't HAVE the option of hiding the fact that they were a minority, nor was there in place the legal scaffolding, as wobbly as it may bit, for them to defend themselves, which does exists for homosexuals. Even if you could assemble as a group you had the off chance that some person who was lighter or darker or maybe more educated than you would bullshit you and so you'd receive no support, which I'm sure happens in the gay community too (though not necessarily with the same traits). Shit defenses like gay panic (people should be put in the chair for trying to use it) had similar analogous in the past. Emmit Till was killed for speaking to a white woman. Folks got beat and or killed for using the street and not walking in the gutter and if a case was lucky enough to be brought to trial, since most weren't because the victim was black and the plaintiff white, the argument usually was "Uppity nigger syndrome" and it therefore made it okay because the plaintiff was doing society a favor by putting an uppity nigger back in his place. Don't get me started on crimes such as lynching which were either had both de facto and de jure support. My premise isn't based on necessarily contemporary gay and minority issues. It's based on the overall nature. Because whether it be past, present, or future, discrimination and violent hate exists for both of us, except my grand-parents didn't, I don't, and my children wouldn't have the OPTION, as shitty as it may be, to hide who and what they are if it were necessary for survival. But I'm going to stop. I don't need to start "digging up the past" any more or proposing apocalyptic scenarios. I have enough history to frame my point. But in consideration of contemporary issues, there is no need for back peddling to the past.

Have you had your head buried so far up your ass that you did not notice the last election cycle? Even if you live outside the US, you should have noticed the pesky little fact that our politicians get elected by the sweat of our backs. Not because they court our vote and do nice things for us, but because they actively support discriminating against us. Because they campaign on protecting the populace from our "assaults on marriage" or our "predation on their children"

So yes, we are specifically targeted for discrimination. By our own fucking government.

I don't entirely understand this part. I know it's a combo of I didn't really pay attention to gay issues then and only am starting to be concerned about it. But if you are saying that politicians get elected off the gay vote, I'm going to tentatively raise the bs flag. As shitty as it sounds I think that the Christian right has waaay more sway than the gay vote.

This is true. but now you are going into Red Herring territory.

Like I said, I'm done. I only needed to mention enough of the past to frame and make my point. No more digging up the past and whatnot.

Even verbal nagging should be stopped, because it isolates and dehumanizes. The phrase "sticks and stones may break my bones but words may never hurt me" is a damned lie.

Of course words hurt. I wouldn't say that they don't. I think that they can strengthen. However, since one can not determine or predict how words will affect individuals an overall policy of avoiding them should be taken. I suppose on this matter I am conceding my point.

And I am saying you are so full of shit, that you are about to explode under the stress and cover your home with foul smelling fecal material.

I could have left that out because I can't really "counter that" (I don't like random insulting) but I loled hard.

That decision was less about the physical conditions of the school, and more about the dichotomy it inherently creates. The moment you isolate a group of people and say "We need to remain separate from you" you are saying that one group is superior to or inferior too the other. it is inherently not equal as a result because it sets up a legally enforced hierarchy. The only way it is every justified is for the physical protection of one group from the other.

Eh don't necessarily agree. A dichotomy isn't inherent, it just has an easier time being created. You don't say, "I'm better or your better" by segregating. It doesn't just, poof!, get established. If that's the societal trait which causes segregation, then yes. But if it were a religious one or people just said "Hey! Why don't we try this?" I wouldn't think it would automatically just appear.

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

I disagree. Morality at its roots is about Empathy. We evolved it. The ability to empathize with another creature and think to one's self "Damn I wouldn't like this happening to me" can be thought of as the ONLY moral precept that exists as a metaphysical property inherent to humanity (and probably a few other species) It forms the basis of ALL other moral ideas that do not spring from religious command "ethics".

I'd say that while the basis of morality is empathy it still doesn't account for lots of complex morality, which is largely societal. Even empathy is variable from person to person. You couldn't definitely have someone say "Sure I think killing is bad. But if that bastard tries to steal from me or hurts my family I have a right to kill him. And if I did the same, he'd have the right to kill me" not stemming from any religious background.

"Yes, let's compromise! You cannot sew your 7 year old daughter's vagina shut with a acacia thorn. You have to use a needle! And you there! You cant beat the gay kid to death, but you CAN get together with your friends and harass him to the point that he commits suicide."

Conceded. Compromise = bad when it fucks people up on a grand scale.

You say "In the past" like discrimination even on ethnic and religious grounds has stopped. I would really like to give you more credit that I am right now, please tell me you at least have a periscope so that you can see from inside your colon.

Well no fucking duh. In this country at least PCism has become so utterly stupid in the realm of racial relations it ends up creating what it's essentially trying to prevent. "OO criticize the black man, he might think it's a hate crime. OOO don't not hire the black man because he's under skilled and interviewed poorly. It'll look like a hate crime. Ahhh!!! Don't reject the black kid from a college, it'll look like racial discrimination!" I know this for a fact, from experience, reading in magazines on black issues, and just up and asking other people that white bosses and supervisors seem almost scared to criticize black people on work performance because tons of them will feel singled out. What does this do? It prevents them from actually improving at their job because they don't know what they are doing wrong and they A) get fired or B) never advance. My very first job THANK GOD they told me that I was a slow at stocking grocery. I never would have gotten faster and would have been let go. Second, black people as a group have a tendency to think that they can still use ghetto speech when they interview for jobs, can wear there grillz n shit to interviews and generally carry themselves poorly when looking for work. Subsequently, they don't get good jobs and cry out the "O that person was racists". Fortunately for the college bound Negro you have a degree and skills under your belt, but if you can't carry yourself properly at an interview or meeting, your skills mean jack, diddly shit. I hate it hate it hate it when I'm with a group of people and they say I'm "eloquent" and "smart". Now yes, I do carry myself better than the average person in general, but when I'm in company of people who are way way way loads smarter and posses more poise than myself, I still get it. Why? Because it's expected that I'll act like a fucking moron. Third, it is now poor people, not black people specifically, that have had trouble getting into colleges. In the past, where schools would actually ignore you if you were black, even if you had better grades than the next white applicant. Now affirmative action gives black people the leg up. Not because they might actually need it (I know some rich bastard who came in decked out with rhinestone grillz to the subway I worked at and drove a BMW. Nearly failed every semester till he finally failed out. School was paid for by the ole US of A and NYS, not because he was poor, but because he was black). I would much rather see the economically disadvantaged get into a school because they can't afford it and have lower grades than a higher income counterpart than someone who's black getting into a school because they are black or receiving excessive amounts of financial aid because of their blackness. If you can pay for school you're grades should match. Economic disadvantage is more closely tied to lower high school grades than skin color. Now I'm poor AND black and I had bad grades in high school. I could have gotten myself into a better school than I'm in now an afforded it. But I wanted to improve myself so that when I got to a better school there was no question why I was there. It was because I had the GPA to back it up. Now there are hood rats and dumbasses who do get to school, waste an education, and go out and act out point deux.

That is a coping mechanism. Like Stockholm syndrome. They suffered, and have to find a way to rationalize it.

Eh, disagree here too. One, people in the past in generally were less pussies than people now. Two, there irish blood makes you as tough as nails . Third I honestly don't think it's just a coping mechanism. Some people just don't utterly fail and crumble under pressure and discrimination. Some folks take it say "Fuck you" and punch the bastard in the nose and walk away. Saying it's just a coping mechanism to rationalize something seems ersatz and shitty to me. You didn't really become a stronger person and improve who you are, your brain is just telling you that so you don't brake down.

[ray245]

Just a question...will same sex couple influence their child's interest in the same gender?