Stephen Baxter's Writing
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From what all of you are saying, I think I know why Evolution worked so well while these others apparently didn't. Since there aren't very many characters in the book (as characters usually go), no real plot, and it's all about background, and we're reading it as a collection of stories that are all about background, it works to his strengths.
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That's exactly right; I think Evolution was the best of his works because it played to his strengths perfectly. Nobody expects lots of character development, let alone snappy dialog, from a Purgatorius.Mayabird wrote:From what all of you are saying, I think I know why Evolution worked so well while these others apparently didn't. Since there aren't very many characters in the book (as characters usually go), no real plot, and it's all about background, and we're reading it as a collection of stories that are all about background, it works to his strengths.
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I find it hilarious that, to work to his "strengths", he has to write "stories" with no characters, plot or dialogue.
I know all the Baxter fans are going to flame me for this, but i dont care, i LOL'd when i read that. Yeah, he's great as a writer as long as he doesnt try to write dialogue, characters or plot...he's not so good there.
What really makes no sense is his settings (as "story" is a bit of a misnomer here) are not even that good. The Culture novels are much better if what you want is some really exotic setting, or Lensmen, or a dozen other series. Better written ones at that.
I know all the Baxter fans are going to flame me for this, but i dont care, i LOL'd when i read that. Yeah, he's great as a writer as long as he doesnt try to write dialogue, characters or plot...he's not so good there.
What really makes no sense is his settings (as "story" is a bit of a misnomer here) are not even that good. The Culture novels are much better if what you want is some really exotic setting, or Lensmen, or a dozen other series. Better written ones at that.
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So you're criticizing Baxter for poor characterization and wooden dialog, and then recommending we read Doc Smith instead? Are you high, or just immune to irony?18-Till-I-Die wrote:I find it hilarious that, to work to his "strengths", he has to write "stories" with no characters, plot or dialogue.
I know all the Baxter fans are going to flame me for this, but i dont care, i LOL'd when i read that. Yeah, he's great as a writer as long as he doesnt try to write dialogue, characters or plot...he's not so good there.
What really makes no sense is his settings (as "story" is a bit of a misnomer here) are not even that good. The Culture novels are much better if what you want is some really exotic setting, or Lensmen, or a dozen other series. Better written ones at that.
Any city gets what it admires, will pay for, and, ultimately, deserves…We want and deserve tin-can architecture in a tinhorn culture. And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed.--Ada Louise Huxtable, "Farewell to Penn Station", New York Times editorial, 30 October 1963
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Irony? You mean like saying, "This book is good, but the dialogue and characters and plot arent so great. But the rest is ok."RedImperator wrote:So you're criticizing Baxter for poor characterization and wooden dialog, and then recommending we read Doc Smith instead? Are you high, or just immune to irony?18-Till-I-Die wrote:I find it hilarious that, to work to his "strengths", he has to write "stories" with no characters, plot or dialogue.
I know all the Baxter fans are going to flame me for this, but i dont care, i LOL'd when i read that. Yeah, he's great as a writer as long as he doesnt try to write dialogue, characters or plot...he's not so good there.
What really makes no sense is his settings (as "story" is a bit of a misnomer here) are not even that good. The Culture novels are much better if what you want is some really exotic setting, or Lensmen, or a dozen other series. Better written ones at that.
Anyway, i never said that. I said, if you want a better written universe or background, then you can read the Culture or Lensmen, or several others i could name. They all have very interesting backgrounds and cultures, with a lot of forethought, but they're also better written in other ways, important ways.
But since you bring it up...
IMO, Doc Smith could write interesting characters. They were, to put it bluntly, utterly bizarre and some were extremely alien either physically (like the talking multi-limbed dragons) or mentally, but they were hardly "bad", at least not to me. The dialogue sounds extremely dated but i wouldnt call it wooden, any more than the dated dialogue in some movie from the 40s is "wooden". It's very clear that it's old as hell but it's not bad or even below average, taken in the context of when it was written.
I think you guys are trying to tap dance around the fact that Baxter is just a shitty writer. If his characters suck, and his pacing sucks, and his dialogue sucks, please tell me what part of the book is left? It wouldnt even be a book it'd be an outline of a possible book that a competent writer could make someday. I've read three of Baxter's books and, to be honest, it was like trench warfare. I was at war with my brain every five seconds to keep from stopping, but i promised myself i'd go thrugh with it just to say that i did, like people used to go climb mountains or explore the wilderness just to say "Yeah...i fucking went there."
To be fair, George Lucas boarders on this problem when he is completely unfettered by any editors or outside control (see the "romance" scenes between Anakin and Padme) but then, even at his worst he can write action sequences that are cool to watch with sufficient CGI.
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No one is going to hail Lucas as good with dialogue. Because he flat out sucks. Thankfully, not all the movies suffered from him doing that, so we had his ideas on a universe with the details that are a bit beyond him done by others. the SW trilogy is memorable for effects and making grown adults feel like kids again more than profound, original storytelling or dialogue.
So I expect different from novels of hard space opera. That is why Reynolds' work is in a different league, as is Banks'. You can't rely on glitz when your imagination is being fuelled by the writer's own literary work directly.
There are "blockbuster" pure action books I've read and loved, like the later Bolo novels and short stories which are enjoyable. For real plot and character development, I'd much rather stick with the Culture or Revelation Space or Night's Dawn Trilogy series.
So I expect different from novels of hard space opera. That is why Reynolds' work is in a different league, as is Banks'. You can't rely on glitz when your imagination is being fuelled by the writer's own literary work directly.
There are "blockbuster" pure action books I've read and loved, like the later Bolo novels and short stories which are enjoyable. For real plot and character development, I'd much rather stick with the Culture or Revelation Space or Night's Dawn Trilogy series.
You really should read the book. It's a series of long vignettes (sorta a contradiction, I guess, but that's how it read) about the evolution of primates up to humans, then some on the development of human culture, and then the evolution of the post-humans, along with a couple side stories about an intelligent dinosaur species and Antarctica going into a deep freeze.18-Till-I-Die wrote:I find it hilarious that, to work to his "strengths", he has to write "stories" with no characters, plot or dialogue.
And there were characters and dialogue. That wasn't the point, though. The point was the whole grand scheme of evolution, where we don't matter one bit and what happens just happens. Creatures live, they breed, and they die, even if they're replicating machines. And it's epic in a very unsettling way.
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SDNW4 Nation: The Refuge And, on Nova Terra, Al-Stan the Totally and Completely Honest and Legitimate Weapons Dealer and Used Starship Salesman slept on a bed made of money, with a blaster under his pillow and his sombrero pulled over his face. This is to say, he slept very well indeed.
SDNW4 Nation: The Refuge And, on Nova Terra, Al-Stan the Totally and Completely Honest and Legitimate Weapons Dealer and Used Starship Salesman slept on a bed made of money, with a blaster under his pillow and his sombrero pulled over his face. This is to say, he slept very well indeed.
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That's the appeal of the Inhibitors in Reynolds' work. I love the idea of a species that was part of some massive war in the early life of the Milky Way when the galaxy was full of species warring over resources over millennia and then ending with one true winner that had a purpose that explains the Fermi paradox eerily today.Mayabird wrote:
You really should read the book. It's a series of long vignettes (sorta a contradiction, I guess, but that's how it read) about the evolution of primates up to humans, then some on the development of human culture, and then the evolution of the post-humans, along with a couple side stories about an intelligent dinosaur species and Antarctica going into a deep freeze.
And there were characters and dialogue. That wasn't the point, though. The point was the whole grand scheme of evolution, where we don't matter one bit and what happens just happens. Creatures live, they breed, and they die, even if they're replicating machines. And it's epic in a very unsettling way.
You can't help but wonder how true it could be, or be in awe at how just travelling at STL (FTL is totally verboten) is something that runs on the scale of whole civilisations.