Confederacy or Federation?

Strate_Egg · Post by **Strate_Egg** » 2003-01-18 09:58pm

Well, there are also some pilgrims left over from the great war. They dont need navcom AI to navigate jump points.

Im not 100% sure, but i think they can make their own points.

Blair (in the movie) navigated through scylla, the gravity well....(i think thats what it was)

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-01-18 10:01pm

I think Wing Commander took their idea for natural jump points from Jerry Pournelle's Alderson Points.

In The Mote In God's Eye and others in his own galactic empire continuity, Pournelle posited that each star system had at least one Alderson point, but only located close to the primary star. He also posited a fifth force in physics which was the basis for his Alderson drive, but as part of setting his limitations on galactic travel. The drive could only achieve system-to-system star travel when activated at the Alderson point; elsewise its energy simply vanished into hyperspace, with the ship simply jumping to the exact same spot it was occupying.

Wing Commander's "natural" jump points seem analogous to these; you can only achieve hyperjump at these points within the star system, you can't simply jump in and out of the system at will, and you have to run on reaction drive while within the system.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-18 10:03pm

Alyeska wrote:With only a dozen fleet carriers and a few hundred destroyers, the Confederation does not stand a chance against the Federation.

You're joking right? The Confeds would literally assrape the Feds
and blow them to hell.....they didn't stop building ships after the Kilrathi
War ended, but instead kept on building EVER LARGER fleet carriers,
culiminating in the MIDWAY class megacarriers

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-18 10:11pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Alyeska wrote:With only a dozen fleet carriers and a few hundred destroyers, the Confederation does not stand a chance against the Federation.
You're joking right? The Confeds would literally assrape the Feds
and blow them to hell.....they didn't stop building ships after the Kilrathi
War ended, but instead kept on building EVER LARGER fleet carriers,
culiminating in the MIDWAY class megacarriers

Yes, the Midway which has no capital ship weapons and fewer fighters then the Vesuvius.

Anyway, the standard time frame for the Confed is WC3/4 time period. They only have a dozen fleet carriers as already stated. By WCP they have few enough ships that the Nephlim were a significant enough threat to Earth itself. Saying the Confed will ass rape the Federation is like saying the Federation will ass rape the Empire. There are significant number differences as well as speed differences. Hell, there are industrial differences. The Confeds industry was only able to get 12 fleet carriers as of WC3, and half of those were older ships. Most of the capships shown in WC3 were actually vintage WC1 era type ships that got pulled out of reserve after the Confed fleet got its ass handed to it by the Kilrathi.

The Confed relies almost solely on its fighters. It has a smallish fleet designed to support the fighters themselves.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-18 10:17pm

Alyeska wrote:Anyway, the standard time frame for the Confed is WC3/4 time period. They only have a dozen fleet carriers as already stated.

Right, and we can completely ignore the fact that the Victory has the
designation of CV-40 on her hull?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-01-18 10:20pm

Strate_Egg wrote:Well, there are also some pilgrims left over from the great war. They dont need navcom AI to navigate jump points.

Im not 100% sure, but i think they can make their own points.

Blair (in the movie) navigated through scylla, the gravity well....(i think thats what it was)

I don't think the movie is really in line with the canon of the Wing Commander mainline universe. I'd call anything drawn from it incredibly questionable.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-18 10:20pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Anyway, the standard time frame for the Confed is WC3/4 time period. They only have a dozen fleet carriers as already stated.
Right, and we can completely ignore the fact that the Victory has the
designation of CV-40 on her hull?

See the location I have listed on my profile? Does the USN have 65 nuclear aircraft carriers in service right now?

In the WC novel Action Stations IIRC the Confed fleet decomissioned the majority of their fleet carreirs because of a treaty with the Kilrathi. Then the Kilrathi renigged and attacked in force. This caught the Confed off guard and the Confed threw everything they had to stop the Kilrathi. It worked, but it cost them almost every single one of their front line warships. At the same token, it also cost the Kilrathi most of their modern ships. Both sides were forced to pull out older ships and send them against eachother. Hence the Victory being an OLD ship with a Distinguished history.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-18 10:25pm

You claim that the Confederacy's industrial base is poor, yet we have
DOUBLE DIGIT CV numbers, instead of SINGLE DIGIT CV numbers..

Are the novels even official? Have we heard from Chris Roberts that they
are part of the canon?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-18 10:32pm

MKSheppard wrote:You claim that the Confederacy's industrial base is poor, yet we have
DOUBLE DIGIT CV numbers, instead of SINGLE DIGIT CV numbers..

Are the novels even official? Have we heard from Chris Roberts that they
are part of the canon?

Are you stupid or just a complete fucking idiot?

Lets see... Starfleet Registries are into the 70,000's...

BTW, check this site out.

www.wcnews.com

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-18 10:36pm

Alyeska wrote: Lets see... Starfleet Registries are into the 70,000's...

And they use them for everything from pissant workbees to ships of
the line. The Confederacy uses the USN system of numerial designations,
so we know the confederacy has built at least forty carriers....

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-18 10:38pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Alyeska wrote: Lets see... Starfleet Registries are into the 70,000's...
And they use them for everything from pissant workbees to ships of
the line. The Confederacy uses the USN system of numerial designations,
so we know the confederacy has built at least forty carriers....

70,000 vs 40. VERY impressive.

MK, they only have 12 full sized carries by WC3/4 and that is a fact.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-18 10:40pm

Alyeska wrote: 70,000 vs 40. VERY impressive.

Gee, unlike the federation, the Confeds' don't see the need to give
every goddamn thing they make that is slightly larger than a motorcycle
a fucking NCC number.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-18 10:41pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Alyeska wrote: 70,000 vs 40. VERY impressive.
Gee, unlike the federation, the Confeds' don't see the need to give
every goddamn thing they make that is slightly larger than a motorcycle
a fucking NCC number.

Gee, the Federation only gives capships and Runabouts NCC numbers.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-18 10:43pm

Alyeska wrote: Gee, the Federation only gives capships and Runabouts NCC numbers.

Gee, then why is a workbee in ST:TMP referred to by a NCC number?

BTW, the TCS Concordia from WC2 has a CV-14 designation. That means
between WC2 and WC3 the confeds built upwards of 26 carriers.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/covers/ga ... ameId,823/

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-18 10:48pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Alyeska wrote: Gee, the Federation only gives capships and Runabouts NCC numbers.
Gee, then why is a workbee in ST:TMP referred to by a NCC number?

BTW, the TCS Concordia from WC2 has a CV-14 designation. That means
between WC2 and WC3 the confeds built upwards of 26 carriers.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/covers/ga ... ameId,823/

Actually the Concordia from WC2 has a designation of CV-65.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-18 10:50pm

Alyeska wrote: Actually the Concordia from WC2 has a designation of CV-65.

not according to the box artwork. Says "14" clearly on the bows of
the Concordia

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-01-18 10:50pm

Alyeska wrote:Lets see... Starfleet Registries are into the 70,000's...

A caveat: Starfleet registry numbers are not listed in a fixed progression, starting from year one of the service's existence. It certainly does not support any argument that there have been over 70,000 vessels built for the service since its foundation, nor that there are anywhere near that number currently in service.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-01-18 10:51pm

Thanks for the reply Stormbringer.

That makes it kinda of a diffucult point ST blockaiding the jps. Any side would have to assume things. So i'm leaving that along for now.

I'm going with WC on firepower. Both sides have advantages. But a weapon advantage would allow the WC the ability of wining battles better. Which would be critical in such a messed up war.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-18 10:53pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Alyeska wrote: Actually the Concordia from WC2 has a designation of CV-65.
not according to the box artwork. Says "14" clearly on the bows of
the Concordia

Ingame lists it as 65.

http://www.wcnews.com/articles/art22.shtml

Try scrolling down to the "C" section.

http://www.wcnews.com/ships/wc2confederation.shtml

And that doesn't look much like a 14, looks more like a 65.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-18 10:54pm

Darth_Shinji wrote:Thanks for the reply Stormbringer.

That makes it kinda of a diffucult point ST blockaiding the jps. Any side would have to assume things. So i'm leaving that along for now.

I'm going with WC on firepower. Both sides have advantages. But a weapon advantage would allow the WC the ability of wining battles better. Which would be critical in such a messed up war.

WC weapons don't have the range to hit Federation ships. Federation ships can simply avoid WC capships.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-18 10:56pm

Question: Since the Privateer games began in the same universe, are we considering them as well, or only games titled Wing Commander?

Also, merely because the Federation has numbers in the 70,000s does not mean they have built 70,000 ships. AFAIK, we have never seen a number between 2000 and 10,000, and the gaps in ship registry numbers are large and glaring. While it is possible that 70,000 ships have been built, given the Federation's demonstrated industrial capability, it is highly improbable.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-18 10:57pm

I like how the Gettysburg is a Waterloo class vessel.

I also saw the Drayman there too, god that mission in WC was annoying.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-18 10:58pm

The Dark wrote:Question: Since the Privateer games began in the same universe, are we considering them as well, or only games titled Wing Commander?

Also, merely because the Federation has numbers in the 70,000s does not mean they have built 70,000 ships. AFAIK, we have never seen a number between 2000 and 10,000, and the gaps in ship registry numbers are large and glaring. While it is possible that 70,000 ships have been built, given the Federation's demonstrated industrial capability, it is highly improbable.

Given that the Federation has 12,000 ships by the Dominion war and most of those are modern. We know that the Federation has two types of ships. They have long lasting hull types, and they have short lasting hull types. This explains why seemingly common ship types in TNG disapear by DS9. Those ships are constantly being built throughout the ST time, but they are also decomissioned just as quickly.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-18 11:31pm

Alyeska wrote:Given that the Federation has 12,000 ships by the Dominion war and most of those are modern. We know that the Federation has two types of ships. They have long lasting hull types, and they have short lasting hull types. This explains why seemingly common ship types in TNG disapear by DS9. Those ships are constantly being built throughout the ST time, but they are also decomissioned just as quickly.

12,000? Out of curiosity, where is this number from?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-18 11:33pm

The Dark wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Given that the Federation has 12,000 ships by the Dominion war and most of those are modern. We know that the Federation has two types of ships. They have long lasting hull types, and they have short lasting hull types. This explains why seemingly common ship types in TNG disapear by DS9. Those ships are constantly being built throughout the ST time, but they are also decomissioned just as quickly.
12,000? Out of curiosity, where is this number from?

One of the ST producers stated that the Federation had 12,000 ships just prior to the Dominion war. At the very END of the Dominion war the Dominion Alliance had 30,000 ships and the Federation needed something to go up against that.